Modifying the Mystic Theurge


Homebrew and House Rules


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Ok, I'm modifying the mystic theurge to be a more balanced, functional, and ultimately playable class than is presented in the PHB. I find it largely underpowered for two reasons: One, it's mostly suited for higher level play due to the high entry costs, and two, it drops off suddenly without offering much direction. The Mystic Theurge is a character concept, not a snippet of a character design. The character is pursuing two separate casting classes, which generally leaves the player with 4 "dead" levels after MT is finished. This is completely unsatisfactory. This leads to stunted character progression afterwords or dual caster cheese (druid 3 / wizard 3 / mystic theurge 10 / arcane hierophant 4) that ends a character with dual sets of 9th level spells.

I'm not trying to create a godly character here. Far from it, in fact. I just want this awesome character concept, the dual caster, to be a playable concept from 1 to 20. Here is my fix.

Hit die: d6
BAB: Poor
Saves: Will good, fortitude & reflex poor

Requirements:
Spells: 2nd level arcane and 1st level divine spells, or 2nd level divine spells and 1st level arcane spells.
Skills: Know: Religion 3, Know: Arcana 3, Spellcraft 5

Progression Chart:

1 - Relaxed Arcana, +Secondary
2 - Student of Magic, +Main/Secondary
3 - +Main/Secondary
4 - +Main/Secondary
5 - +Main
6 - +Main/Secondary
7 - +Secondary
8 - +Main/Secondary
9 - +Main
10 - +Main/Secondary
11 - +Main/Secondary
12 - +Main/Secondary
13 - +Main
14 - +Main/Secondary
15 - Combined Theurgy, +Main/Secondary

Class Features:

Armor/Weapons: You gain no additional proficiencies with armor or weapons.

Spellcasting: When you enter the Mystic Theurge class, choose one of your classes in which you can cast 2nd level spells. This is your main class. Choose one of your classes in which you can cast 1st level spells. This is your secondary class. Your Main and Secondary classes cannot be from the same spell source (arcane or divine). You gain additional spells and caster level as designated on the above chart. You gain no other benefits of the class.

Relaxed Arcana: Due to your dual training in magic, you can cast arcane spells from your main or secondary class in light armor and shields without fear of spell failure. If you already have the ability to cast arcane spells in light armor, you instead increase the ability to medium armor and heavy shields. This does not function for any arcane class other than your main or secondary.

Student of Magic: Add half your class level (rounded down) to your main and secondary classes to determine class features provided by these classes. This ability has no effect on spellcasting.

Combined Theurgy: As Combine Spells from the original Mystic Theurge, but for all levels. Additionally, you may treat the caster level of your secondary class as equal to the caster level of your main class.


At the end of this progression, you end up with something like this:

Cleric 4 / Wizard 1 / Mystic Theurge 15

  • Cleric spellcasting 17
  • Domains as 11th level, Channel Energy 5d6
  • Wizard Spellcasting 13
  • Familiar/School Bonuses as 8th level
  • Light Armor casting
  • Combined Theurgy
  • BAB 10

This change also makes sorcerer and druid attractive candidates for the class, since they rely heavily on class features.


last I checked shields were not medium. I would specify light shields and heavy shields, other wise one could say any shields, including tower.

Just a note of caution.

ON another note. I too feel that many the PrCs drop off too early, as this is supposed to be what the character is, not half. That is why I think the 10 level limit should be dropped in favor of at least 12 levels of advancement.

2 cent.


Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

last I checked shields were not medium. I would specify light shields and heavy shields, other wise one could say any shields, including tower.

Just a note of caution.

ON another note. I too feel that many the PrCs drop off too early, as this is supposed to be what the character is, not half. That is why I think the 10 level limit should be dropped in favor of at least 12 levels of advancement.

2 cent.

Good catch. Corrected.


Another note. Instead of posting here in the forum where your posts self lock shortly after you post, try a Google Document link instead, allowing you to update regular


Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Student of Magic: Add half your class level (rounded down) to your main and secondary classes to determine class features provided by these classes. This ability has no effect on spellcasting.

This seems over the top of a power, as you are getting double spell casting progression. I would remove this, IMHO.

I would suggest making a seperate but similar class for druid/sorcerer build.


Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Student of Magic: Add half your class level (rounded down) to your main and secondary classes to determine class features provided by these classes. This ability has no effect on spellcasting.

This seems over the top of a power, as you are getting double spell casting progression. I would remove this, IMHO.

I would suggest making a seperate but similar class for druid/sorcerer build.

You're only adding 7 levels at the end of progression, which doesn't do a whole lot. It keeps with the flavor, but unless you take cleric for your minor it doesn't accomplish much in the way of Arcanists (Sorcerer/Wizard gains new abilities at 9/10). For your major, it's 13, which is nice, but still subpar in most cases.

Perhaps I could change it to something like this:

Favored Ability: Choose one of your classes that you had before entering the Mystic Theurge. You may add your Mystic Theurge levels to that class for determining the strength of your channel energy, animal companion (not gained through Animal domain), one domain, or familiar. You may instead choose to add half your Mystic Theurge level to your bloodline for the purposes of determining bloodline powers or your arcane school for the purposes of determining school powers.


Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Sean FitzSimon wrote:
Student of Magic: Add half your class level (rounded down) to your main and secondary classes to determine class features provided by these classes. This ability has no effect on spellcasting.

This seems over the top of a power, as you are getting double spell casting progression. I would remove this, IMHO.

I would suggest making a seperate but similar class for druid/sorcerer build.

You're only adding 7 levels at the end of progression, which doesn't do a whole lot. It keeps with the flavor, but unless you take cleric for your minor it doesn't accomplish much in the way of Arcanists (Sorcerer/Wizard gains new abilities at 9/10). For your major, it's 13, which is nice, but still subpar in most cases.

Perhaps I could change it to something like this:

Favored Ability: Choose one of your classes that you had before entering the Mystic Theurge. You may add your Mystic Theurge levels to that class for determining the strength of your channel energy, animal companion (not gained through Animal domain), one domain, or familiar. You may instead choose to add half your Mystic Theurge level to your bloodline for the purposes of determining bloodline powers or your arcane school for the purposes of determining school powers.

Okay, that might be reasonable.


casts animate thread.

so one of my main issues with the Mystic Theurge is that it gets all these spell slots, but can't actually use them any faster than anyone else, so they go to waste (especially if there's another caster to run out of spells first).

my proposed solution would be to improve their action economy. i would come up with a different capstone and allow them to either [cast one spell from each of their two MT classes as a single action that takes a full-round action or the longer of the two spells' casting times whichever is longer] or [use the power of a spell slot from one class to fuel metamagic for another by sacrificing a spell slot equal to the level increase of the metamagic effect; this cost cannot be reduced by effects that reduce metamagic costs]. in either case the total spell levels used for this action are limited to your Mystic Theurge level, cantrips may not be spent to power metamagic feats.

so a wiz 3/clr 3/mt 2 could cast enlarge person and bless at the same time with a 1 round cast time (because that's enlarge person's casting time). or could cast an extended 1st level spell from one class by sacrificing a 1st level spell in the other.

this would replace combined spells and i'd replace the capstone with an ability that causes casting in both classes to continue together, so regardless of how you add 4 more levels of spellcasting, you get it for both classes. i think a 20th level mystic theurge deserves at least the basics of 9th level magic in both classes.

additionally, i'd have arcane casting restrictions eased to the divine caster portion's restrictions/base armor proficiencies. so medium armor for clerics and additionally no metal for druids. and at some level they should probably be able to use their best casting stat for DCs and concentration checks, but nothing else. maybe give them back a caster level or two, but that's probably unnecessary.

i'd like to think that this would be balanced as is, but as a caveat consider limiting the double spells to spells that don't deal damage, but i'm not really sure 3 5th level spells (or a 9th, 5th, and 1st level spell) in a round is really significantly better than a 9th level and a 5th level.


The first thing any Mystic Theurge build needs to do is reconcile its power. A Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 is a fairly competitive character with 7th level spellcasting in two classes, whereas a single-classed caster would have 8th level spellcasting in a single class. On the flipside, a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mysic Theurge 1 has access to 2nd level spells whereas a single-class mage has access to 4th level spells. It's very difficult to balance the mystic theurge due to its valley of suck.

So I think the first course of action of any mystic theurge rewrite is to deal with the prerequisites (at least for a rewrite that keeps it a prestige class; I'm aware that many peoples' solution is to rewrite it as a base class, but in my view being able to mix-and-match any divine and any arcane spellcasting class of your choosing is the defining characteristic of the mystic theurge, making it better suited as a prestige class). I think 1st level arcane spellcasting, 1st level divine spellcasting, and knowledge arcana/religion 4 ranks is about appropriate. This gets you in without too much pain, and lets you get around do playing the character you want to play without extensive qualification pain.

As for the action economy approach, I would be mindful of that implementation in specific. It allows the theurge to nova with a ridiculous onslaught. This may look tame if you're considering a lower-level mystic theurge that's hampered by its traditional prerequisites, but after 10 levels of catch-up it's probably too much. Additional spell slots can be used for more than just nova'ing. You can carry more utility spells, more out-of-combat spells, you can use your spells more freely rather than conserving them, and if your current adventure is time sensitive you won't necessarily stop when the other caster(s) are depleted.

If I were going to rewrite the Mystic Theurge (actually I do have a homebrew draft, but that's another matter) I'd lower the prerequisites as I mentioned above, then give it a list of theurge powers that it gets to pick from at every odd level. Some might give it the ability to bend the action economy in a limited way, others might do completely different things. These powers would be fueled by a power pool, with a maximum number of points equal to 1/2 mystic theurge level + arcane spellcasting attribute modifier + divine spellcasting attribute modifier. If they're the same attribute, they don't stack and you only get the bonus once. This creates a nice dynamic with sorcerer/oracle getting a shared casting stat, but a smaller pool of points for their class features than a wizard/cleric.


Mystic Theurge is an artifact of an era where Prestige Classes were an interesting idea being spitshot at the game. A concept like the MT has no place in Pathfinder as it has evolved to be.

Your options are two-fold.

Option A- a Prestige Class which requires 5 levels of casting in one class and grants secondary casting along with restricted progression of the initial class.

Option B- a single class designed to encapsulate what it means to be a 'Student of multiple disciplines of magic.' This might be a mix and match class which can cherry pick which casting classes it wants and which features from them, or it might have different forms dedicated to different class combinations.

Liberty's Edge

For the single class option, can I suggest you might check out the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press.

One of the new base classes within is, you guessed it, The Theurge :)


Dasrak wrote:
As for the action economy approach, I would be mindful of that implementation in specific. It allows the theurge to nova with a ridiculous onslaught. This may look tame if you're considering a lower-level mystic theurge that's hampered by its traditional prerequisites, but after 10 levels of catch-up it's probably too much. Additional spell slots can be used for more than just nova'ing. You can carry more utility spells, more out-of-combat spells, you can use your spells more freely rather than conserving them, and if your current adventure is time sensitive you won't necessarily stop when the other caster(s) are depleted.

yeah, i considered that but couldn't think of anything particularly game breaking. if you can cite a specific example rather than just assume it would be too powerful, i'd really appreciate it. there are other ways to limit such an ability but without a way to use more of your spell slots than a full caster, all you have is weaker spells. you will end up resting when other casters are out of spells regardless of how many you have left, so all your slots count for nothing. sure you're less concerned about running out, but odds are you'll cast maybe 1 more spell per fight than a full caster because you're both still limited by action economy and the length of combat. you have a huge advantage out of combat if you really want to make your skill monkey obsolete i guess, but that doesn't seem worth it.


cuatroespada wrote:
yeah, i considered that but couldn't think of anything particularly game breaking. if you can cite a specific example rather than just assume it would be too powerful, i'd really appreciate it.

I was thinking of just naming two high-level spells that a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 could cast on the same round to devastating effect, but on second thought raw numbers get the point across better so let's look at look at a Sorcerer 4 / Oracle 4 / Mystic Theurge 10. That gets us 7th level casting in both classes. Using standard feats (spell perfection, quickened spell, empowered spell, maximized spell, intensified spell, the magical lineage trait), an orange ioun prism stone (to help with caster level), together with your action economy bonus, this allows the character to cast two Maximized Empowered Intensified Fireballs and a Quickened Empowered Intensified Fireball every round by extending two 5th level Sorcerer slots and one 6th level Oracle slot. The total damage from this onslaught comes out to 258.75 damage with a save for half. Note that this is just a bog standard blasting combo, and the majority of high-level blaster builds will use a variant of it. I haven't even started optimizing yet with customizations tailored for a specific build, so I could pump that damage even higher or (more likely) invest in ways to circumvent fire immunity, high reflex saves, and high SR. Blasting isn't even a particularly powerful approach, but with a 50% action economy boost you can go nuts with anything and get extreme results.

Quote:
you will end up resting when other casters are out of spells regardless of how many you have left, so all your slots count for nothing.

I completely disagree with this sentiment. There are lots of situations where you can get more casting opportunities than other classes due to your higher number of slots. Casting outside of combat is a good example; this is not limited by action economy at all, and strictly limited by spell slot availability. For prepared casters, this consideration directly ties in with how willing you are to prepare utility spells that will not be very useful in combat. Having access to two spell lists also counts for something, and is particularly noteworthy for Necromancer builds since there is no single class that can get both Desecrate and Command Undead on their spell list.

Quote:
you have a huge advantage out of combat if you really want to make your skill monkey obsolete i guess, but that doesn't seem worth it.

Skill monkeys were never able to do anything remotely close to flight, teleportation, scrying, creating demiplanes, or the effects of high level illusion spells. UMD and magical items that duplicate these effects are expensive, so proper access to the spells opens up a lot of new possibilities. Short of the GM just saying "no, it doesn't work" this allows these kinds of spells to control the entire narrative of the adventure.


Dasrak wrote:
cuatroespada wrote:
yeah, i considered that but couldn't think of anything particularly game breaking. if you can cite a specific example rather than just assume it would be too powerful, i'd really appreciate it.
I was thinking of just naming two high-level spells that a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10 could cast on the same round to devastating effect, but on second thought raw numbers get the point across better so let's look at look at a Sorcerer 4 / Oracle 4 / Mystic Theurge 10. That gets us 7th level casting in both classes. Using standard feats (spell perfection, quickened spell, empowered spell, maximized spell, intensified spell, the magical lineage trait), an orange ioun prism stone (to help with caster level), together with your action economy bonus, this allows the character to cast two Maximized Empowered Intensified Fireballs and a Quickened Empowered Intensified Fireball every round by extending two 5th level Sorcerer slots and one 6th level Oracle slot. The total damage from this onslaught comes out to 258.75 damage with a save for half. Note that this is just a bog standard blasting combo, and the majority of high-level blaster builds will use a variant of it. I haven't even started optimizing yet with customizations tailored for a specific build, so I could pump that damage even higher or (more likely) invest in ways to circumvent fire immunity, high reflex saves, and high SR. Blasting isn't even a particularly powerful approach, but with a 50% action economy boost you can go nuts with anything and get extreme results.

i'm not exactly sure why your oracle slot is 6th level, but if i'm missing something and it has to be, then you can't do that because you have to cast a spell from each class at the same time and that would exceed the cap of 10 levels (but it looks to me like those are all 5th level slots because spell perfection and the free intensify). you're getting to cast one more fireball than the 18th level sorcerer, who can add two more levels of metamagic to the standard action one.

so, i got the damage of that at 311.25 with a save for half. average save at CR 18 is 13 so assuming max casting stat they make their save 40% of the time and you average 249 damage. the 18th level sorcerer can add persistent to that standard action fireball and average 179.4 damage for a difference of a whopping 69.6 damage.

so, yeah, it's better... but not so much better that having 9th level magic at that level instead isn't still a good choice. i agree that it could be limited further, but i don't think it's as good as you're making it out to be (for blasting at least). i considered limiting the number of times per day, but that always seems so arbitrary. do you have any suggestions that retain the relatively consistent ability to break the action economy?

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