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A lot of people seem to be convinced that the rogue makes an excellent damage dealer. I have I difficult time understanding that position. While I won't deny that sneak attack lets rogues deal lots of damage, most of the time rogues fail to hit the enemy.
Any other class with full or medium BAB has some ways of increasing it. Rogues only have the option of doing stuff that any other class can get just as easily such as flanking or becoming invisible.
3.5 had some loopholes that allowed rogues to dominate combat like using acid flasks while blinking, but the rules have changed.
So, what is the trick that I fail to see (and I hope it's not UMD, since in Pathfinder, everyone can train this skill and invest in wands and scrolls)?
First of all, the rogue is more likely than any other class to be in a position to act against flat-footed opponents during the surprise round.
Secondly, when the rogue hits, they hit hard. Generally, quite a bit harder than a fighter who's not critting will.
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Rogues aren't front line fighters, they have to use their wits to get their hits in...deny dex, use weapon finesse, crippling strikes until the opponent is weighed down by their own armor, attack them on the ground, then when they get up...it all depends on your bag of tricks.
Expanding the amount of targets that the rogue can sneak attack should make up for the loss of sneak attacking with a vial of acid or alchemists fire.
want a fun trick? major magic talent (true strike)...1 sneak attack almost guaranteed to land!
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The three biggest ones are
1.) Flanking
Anyone can do that. And by level 20, the fighter will have 10 points of attack bonus more than the rogue, so I'm not sure if 2 points would make a difference.
2.) Attacking first (easy for Rogues to go first)
That might work, but a lot of creatures, especially at high levels, have a rather high flat-footed AC, compared to their Touch AC. And it would only work in the first round of combat (plus maybe a surprise round).
3.) Attack from Hiding.
Might work. But wouldn't it limit the number of attacks the rogue gets.
All three allow the Rogue to Sneak Attack, most of the time.
Being able to sneak attack is not the problem in my opinion. The rogue gets often enough the chance to do so. Pathfinder even increased the number of options to do so with feats like shatter defenses. But in order to profit from a sneak attack, the rogue has to hit his enemy. And with his medium BAB and little options to increase it, the rogue has problems to do so.
I have a dwarven rogue in my party who, while usually being entitled to his sneak damage, had a very hard time hitting the enemy. The problem might have been aggravated by him having a strength of 14 and using two weapons, without having weapon focus for either of them, but even a better built rogue would probably have encountered difficulties.Anyone could always put ranks into UMD and use Wands and Scrolls, and nothing has really changed there.
Yes, but before Pathfinder, most of the classes were rather limited by the rules for cross-class skills.
The problem was you weren't using Weapon Finesse, and you were taking the TWF penalties.
Finesse is likely to be a +2 (or better) for most rogue builds, and the TWF penalties are also significant.
Add in the flanking bonus, and a flanking rogue is only 4 points behind a lone fighter - and the rogue doesn't need to hit as often as the fighter to get a similar damage output.
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A rogue that always uses TWF is not playing effectively, you need to hit to be able to sneak attack...
you only twf against ones you can hit, then you tear them apart...against the BBEG, you use every trick you can, including switching to a single weapon...
Rogue, weapon finesse!! weapon focus! flank...these are your friends...who cares if you're attacking with a dagger that does 1d3 dmg, it's the 10d6 that is the real damage.
Don't worry about having magic weapons with "stuff" rogues take the +5 weapon over the +1 holy keen flaming burst weapon...
with weapon finesse focus on the Dex...increase your chances of hitting...AND not being hit in return.
Major magic rogue-talent - true-strike...?
Not optimal, but when you need it, does the trick.
One level of diviner could be better - +1 ini, +1bab and save as touch, true strike twice a day (3 if you have 12+ Int)... +1 for your bonded object... and scribe some true-strike scrolls if you want.
You can even mix the two... true-strike monkey! (6 times a day + scrolls)
And get ray of frost as your minor magic talent/cantrip - ray sneak attack as a ranged touch attack- at will if it's a cantrip...
You can deal with high AC with those. I'm pretty sure there is other ways.
I think saying that a person with 3/4 BAB can't hit in combat is a bit much, unless its against very high AC foes, and their not rogues forte, squishy targets and spellcasters are.
Fighter beats Rogue
Rogue beats Wizard
Wizard beats Fighter
is a hyper simplified rule of thumb. Same goes for equivalent monsters. Big tough high AC monsters are the hardest foes for rogues to defeat, but they still aren't gauranteed to lose, and very rarely to not hit at all!
A rogue in a balanced party will be a monster with the finesse + two-weapon fighting build. Cleric = shield other and heals. Bard = buffs. A warrior type = someone else to get beat on.
My cleric is currently using shield other and channel energy to keep the party Rogue alive on the front line and it's working very well. The Rogue does phenomenal damage.
Major magic rogue-talent - true-strike...?
Not optimal, but when you need it, does the trick.One level of diviner could be better - +1 ini, +1bab and save as touch, true strike twice a day (3 if you have 12+ Int)... +1 for your bonded object... and scribe some true-strike scrolls if you want.
You can even mix the two... true-strike monkey! (6 times a day + scrolls)
And get ray of frost as your minor magic talent/cantrip - ray sneak attack as a ranged touch attack- at will if it's a cantrip...
You can deal with high AC with those. I'm pretty sure there is other ways.
That's an interesting suggestion, but I'd go with acid splash. No save, and more importantly, no spell resistance!
Yeah you really can't dismiss the the magick knack talent for true strike. It makes the rogues one really big attack hit for LOADS of damage, and the Elven Curveblade is a nice addition to rogue arsenal as well.
I like that you can dual wield Light repeating crossbows now. Point blank shot and the right situation and you could really do some damage like that.
That's an interesting suggestion, but I'd go with acid splash. No save, and more importantly, no spell resistance!
Yes, even better!
Now you just need a lesser metamagic rod of quicken spell - and any way to get those sneak attacks going : quickened-true strike ranged touch sneak attack every round for three rounds should do the trick for most high AC foes... No SR is just cream on top.
That's an interesting suggestion, but I'd go with acid splash. No save, and more importantly, no spell resistance!Yes, even better!
Now you just need a lesser metamagic rod of quicken spell - and any way to get those sneak attacks going : quickened-true strike ranged touch sneak attack every round for three rounds should do the trick for most high AC foes... The no SR is just cream on top.
Wow, you're evil. I like it... :-)
Quicken Spell only works on spells, not spell like abilities...
Also that's all fine and dandy, since black dragons are immune to acid.
Wow, you're evil. I like it... :-)That's an interesting suggestion, but I'd go with acid splash. No save, and more importantly, no spell resistance!Yes, even better!
Now you just need a lesser metamagic rod of quicken spell - and any way to get those sneak attacks going : quickened-true strike ranged touch sneak attack every round for three rounds should do the trick for most high AC foes... The no SR is just cream on top.
Yes, you get only one attack/round, but you can tumble around to place yourself to sneak and avoid AoO - or do any other move action (hum - improved feint?)
Anyway, high AC is not a problem for a clever rogue...
Quicken Spell only works on spells, not spell like abilities...
Also that's all fine and dandy, since black dragons are immune to acid.
That's why you use your actual spells (lv 1 diviner) to do that, and you also take ray of frost just in case... but yes, you will always find a way to counter any strategy.
Now you are not talking about a high AC foe (that was the original problem the thread adressed), but about a high AC, acid resistant, spell resistant foe. They do tend to be a little bit more rare...
But the touch attack will get through. That touch AC is looooow!
Other good spells for this general idea IMO:
Chill Touch -- One casting gets you multiple hits. Good when you have few attacks a round and few spells a day!
Shocking Grasp -- when you need that one almighty jolt to stir the bones, this one gives you 5d6 to go with that sneank attack damage.
Best part about both of those is they are easier to use, since you can flank and get the sneak attack damage.
Personally at the point I'm looking at spells and sneak attack I'll almost always start looking at Arcane Trickster. Easy to get into and it benefits you on both fronts, while giving virtual feats away.
But the touch attack will get through. That touch AC is looooow!
Other good spells for this general idea IMO:
Chill Touch -- One casting gets you multiple hits. Good when you have few attacks a round and few spells a day!
Shocking Grasp -- when you need that one almighty jolt to stir the bones, this one gives you 5d6 to go with that sneank attack damage.
Best part about both of those is they are easier to use, since you can flank and get the sneak attack damage.
Personally at the point I'm looking at spells and sneak attack I'll almost always start looking at Arcane Trickster. Easy to get into and it benefits you on both fronts, while giving virtual feats away.
You can sneak attack with rays - that I am sure of, but with standard touch spells (like Chill touch) I'm not sure - I think you need to make an unarmed strike to get the sneak attack dammage whith those - which would negate the low AC bonus...
Quicken Spell only works on spells, not spell like abilities...
Also that's all fine and dandy, since black dragons are immune to acid.
True, but most things aren't immune, or even resistant to acid. 1d3+ sneak attack damage for a ranged touch with no save and no SR is pretty sweet, especially at high levels.
You can sneak attack with ray - that I am sure of, but with standard touch spells (like Chill touch) I'm not sure - I think you need to make an unarmed strike to get the sneak attack dammage whith those - which would negate the low AC bonus...
Yes, you can. You can sneak attack with any spell that requires an attack roll.
A 10th level AT gets it with any spell that does damage. Such a cool class, now!
You can sneak attack with rays - that I am sure of, but with standard touch spells (like Chill touch) I'm not sure - I think you need to make an unarmed strike to get the sneak attack dammage whith those - which would negate the low AC bonus...
If it is a spell with an attack roll and you meet the requirements to sneak attack you can sneak attack with it.
Ever get groped by someone with a chill touch spell cast? That is a sneak attack (and not very nice thing to do!).
You can sneak attack with rays - that I am sure of, but with standard touch spells (like Chill touch) I'm not sure - I think you need to make an unarmed strike to get the sneak attack dammage whith those - which would negate the low AC bonus...If it is a spell with an attack roll and you meet the requirements to sneak attack you can sneak attack with it.
Ever get groped by someone with a chill touch spell cast? That is a sneak attack (and not very nice thing to do!).
Ouch!
And I think a one level dip in Wizard is enough - we wanted a rogue build able to deal with high AC, not an Arcane Trickster. Sure you can go that way - but you loose the rogue flavor, high level talents, hp, and prefered class bonuses.
Also, with one level in wizard, you can invest thoses skill points in something else than UMD if you want since you already can use all arcane magic devices. You also get access to the shield spell, and with a good Con, the thoughness feat and prefered class hp, you should be able to stand a fight. +2 to will saves is also nice.
But I agree, Arcane Trickster is really fun to play. I played an Unseen Seer in 3.5 for a while, and it was great.
Ouch!
And I think a one level dip in Wizard is enough - we wanted a rogue build able to deal with high AC, not an Arcane Trickster. Sure you can go that way - but you loose the rogue flavor, high level talents, hp, and prefered class bonuses. +2 to will saves is also good.
Also, with one level in wizard, you can invest thoses skill points in something else than UMD if you want since you already can use all arcane magic devices. You also get access to the shield spell, and with a good Con, the thoughness feat and prefered class hp, you should be able to stand a fight.
But I agree, Arcane Trickster is really fun to play. I played an Unseen Seer in 3.5 for a while, and it was great.
Another nice one is shield. +4 shield AC for those nasty fights without actually using one is a nice bonus.
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My level 6 thief has fired 142 shots, 138 of them hits, with 34 kills. He's a fine-sized homebrew race with high DEX.So you house-ruled yourself into teh ninja of deth... what an achievement. ;)
I know. He's now stepping on party member toes as he's starting to do more damage. So I'm leaning towards having him take Vow of Nonviolence and Vow of Peace. He can still do his sneaky thief stuff, but let the rest of the party take out the bad guys. It's the first step in my munchkin rehabilitation program.
...Any other class with full or medium BAB has some ways of increasing it. Rogues only have the option of doing stuff that any other class can get just as easily such as flanking or becoming invisible...
The question is whether any other class with medium BAB can deal this kind of damage with their melee or thrown attacks. That's why rogue doesn't get so many built-in options to boost himself IMO.
The rogue IS an excellent damage dealer. On average, he adds almost twice his level to every damage roll.
This, coupled with his low attack bonus, encourages him to take pot-shots at soft or disabled targets, which I love.
It is true that many other classes have gotten sizable attack bonuses in 3.P and the rogue may be left behind, but it looks close enough to balanced that I'm willing to watch it in play before I go slapping on houserules.
The question is whether any other class with medium BAB can deal this kind of damage with their melee or thrown attacks. That's why rogue doesn't get so many built-in options to boost himself IMO.
Paladins deal that against outsiders/undead/dragons (actually, more than that when you account for divine bond).
Sorry, couldn't resist. Carry on.
The question is whether any other class with medium BAB can deal this kind of damage with their melee or thrown attacks. That's why rogue doesn't get so many built-in options to boost himself IMO.
Paladins deal that against outsiders/undead/dragons (actually, more than that when you account for divine bond).
Sorry, couldn't resist. Carry on.
Yes, but when you need to take out that loyal-neutral tyrant that is completely destroying the local culture in order to impose his own laws for "the greater good" and totaly ignoring individual freedom, who do you call? ;-)
You can sneak attack with ray - that I am sure of, but with standard touch spells (like Chill touch) I'm not sure - I think you need to make an unarmed strike to get the sneak attack dammage whith those - which would negate the low AC bonus...Yes, you can. You can sneak attack with any spell that requires an attack roll.
A 10th level AT gets it with any spell that does damage. Such a cool class, now!
Flanking requires a Melee attack. Touch attacks are melee attacks, so flanking applies therefore sneak attack applies as it would to another condition that denies the target's Dex bonus to AC.
Ranged and ranged touch attacks do not flank a defender so sneak attack does not apply, unless some other condition that denies the target's Dex bonus to AC is in play.
Both 3.5e and PfRPG agree on this point.
Flanking requires a Melee attack.
Nitpick: It simply requires you to be adjacent. If you're willing to suck the AoO, you can flank someone with a ranged weapon.
Why you would want to is another matter, but it is possible.
You can sneak attack with ray - that I am sure of, but with standard touch spells (like Chill touch) I'm not sure - I think you need to make an unarmed strike to get the sneak attack dammage whith those - which would negate the low AC bonus...Yes, you can. You can sneak attack with any spell that requires an attack roll.
A 10th level AT gets it with any spell that does damage. Such a cool class, now!
Flanking requires a Melee attack. Touch attacks are melee attacks, so flanking applies therefore sneak attack applies as it would to another condition that denies the target's Dex bonus to AC.
Ranged and ranged touch attacks do not flank a defender so sneak attack does not apply, unless some other condition that denies the target's Dex bonus to AC is in play.
Both 3.5e and PfRPG agree on this point.
Flanking is not the only way to get sneak attacks...
Flanking is not the only way to get sneak attacks...
You can sneak attack with ray - that I am sure of, but with standard touch spells (like Chill touch) I'm not sure - I think you need to make an unarmed strike to get the sneak attack dammage whith those - which would negate the low AC bonus...Yes, you can. You can sneak attack with any spell that requires an attack roll.
A 10th level AT gets it with any spell that does damage. Such a cool class, now!
Flanking requires a Melee attack. Touch attacks are melee attacks, so flanking applies therefore sneak attack applies as it would to another condition that denies the target's Dex bonus to AC.
Ranged and ranged touch attacks do not flank a defender so sneak attack does not apply, unless some other condition that denies the target's Dex bonus to AC is in play.
Both 3.5e and PfRPG agree on this point.
Hence, the end of that very sentence "unless some other condition that denies the target's Dex bonus to AC is in play."
I thought that point was pretty clear when I typed it.
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Flanking requires a Melee attack.Nitpick: It simply requires you to be adjacent. If you're willing to suck the AoO, you can flank someone with a ranged weapon.
Why you would want to is another matter, but it is possible.
That is wrong, Flanking specifically states Melee in the description at the very beginning.
Ranged and ranged touch attacks do not flank a defender so sneak attack does not apply, unless some other condition that denies the target's Dex bonus to AC is in play.
You mean like improved invisibility?
Edit: Okay, you knew that, I know you knew that. Sorry, I wasn't trying to make you say it a third time.
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You mean like improved invisibility?
Ranged and ranged touch attacks do not flank a defender so sneak attack does not apply, unless some other condition that denies the target's Dex bonus to AC is in play.
that'll do, So will Sniping, against flat-footed and a host of other things. Hey they still have sniping in PFRPG? I have not thought to look.
It is there in the Beta. I haven't got my hands on the final yet, but I presume it's still there one way or another.
As a question, how much "concealment" is necessary in order to hide again?
Yes, but when you need to take out that loyal-neutral tyrant that is completely destroying the local culture in order to impose his own laws for "the greater good" and totaly ignoring individual freedom, who do you call? ;-)
Captain Chaos. Or Mel Gibson, if he's avaiable.
Ranged and ranged touch attacks do not flank a defender so sneak attack does not apply, unless some other condition that denies the target's Dex bonus to AC is in play.You mean like improved invisibility?
Edit: Okay, you knew that, I know you knew that. Sorry, I wasn't trying to make you say it a third time.
*chuckle*, even your regular old garden variety invisibility qualifies (at least for the first attack).
Captain Chaos. Or Mel Gibson, if he's avaiable.
Yes, but when you need to take out that loyal-neutral tyrant that is completely destroying the local culture in order to impose his own laws for "the greater good" and totaly ignoring individual freedom, who do you call? ;-)
Or Lofwyr =)
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It sounds like it was mostly the player's 'fault' (it wasn't my character) by picking a suboptimal combination of race, ability scores, feats and equipment.
On the other hand, it seems that rogues would benefit greatly from taking a few levels in classes like fighter, ranger or barbarian (my favorite being fighter because of armor training). Or sorcerer to become an arcane trickster (the damage potential at higher levels is incredible). Of all the core classes, the rogue is the one that seems to gain the greatest advantage from multiclassing, 9 levels of fighter would increase the rogues attack bonus by 5 and he'd still retain 6d6 of sneak damage.
The problem with only taking 11 levels of rogue is that you only get one advanced talent. Taking 12/8 gives you an extra advanced talent at the cost of only one point of attack bonus, and is IMO a better option.
13/7 drops an additional two points of attack bonus for only one more dice of sneak attack, but after that it is a bit more in favour of continued rogue levels.
15/5 and 12/8 seem to me the best mixes if that's the way you want to go.
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Eight levels of fighter would also allow the rogue to take Deadly Stroke. It's a rather good feat for rogues, considering they are attacking flat-footed enemies anyway. And applying constitution bleed and hp bleed at the same time can be quite frightening. And who would suspect the greatsword wielding guy in the fullplate to be a rogue?
The Rogue is the greatest situational fighter in the game. Sure lots of time you will be the first person to act but it is usually a mistake to jump out and be the first person the enemy sees.
My favorite tactic as a rogue is to move ahead of the party and find a hiding spot close to the enemy. Then I do something to give away the parties position to the enemy.
After they have run past me I have a choice. Loot the room or kill off that strangler priest or wizard. It is best to let the warriors take the glory of the battle since they have delicate egos. So two rounds of searching for "clues" is the most efficient use of all our time. After that I can move up to flank the tough mob that has our fighter worried and get in the killing blow.