I kind of like the idea of a martial character gaining the ability to fly through his fighting style.
Sure -- but Tiger Claw definitely is not that style. There are a few schools that give flight-like abilities, and I'd let them take ranks in Fly once they got them. Tiger Claw doesn't have anything at all to do with flying, though, and none of its maneuvers or stances grant any kind of levitation or flight.
Shadow Hand and Desert Wind both have flying-type maneuvers, which makes sense since they're the supernatural schools.
As far as the balance issues concerning the Bo9S and the PF classes, I really don't see much of a problem here. In fact, I think some of the classes in 3.5 can be more easily broken. Just look at a Core-only Druid or a Paladin with Charging Smite, a Valorous weapon, and the spell Rhino's Rush! Really, with enought resources and combos, any class has the opportunity to be "broken".
As far as the re-charge mechanic goes, I actually prefer it. The only one that is a bit over-powered is the Warblade. He can regain all expended maneuves with a swift action and a standard attack. I've changed it so that a warblade could recover ONE expended maneuver with a swift action and a standard attack.
But that's just me.
The only one that is a bit over-powered is the Warblade. He can regain all expended maneuves with a swift action and a standard attack.
... during which turn he can't use any maneuvers. It's actually the weakest recharge mechanism (once you realize that Swordsages have a required feat in Adaptive Style). Crusaders have by far the best recharge mechanism.
... during which turn he can't use any maneuvers. It's actually the weakest recharge mechanism (once you realize that Swordsages have a required feat in Adaptive Style). Crusaders have by far the best recharge mechanism.
It's the weakest but with a standard action to attack (something he would do normally) he regains ALL of his maneuvers. So what's the draw-back? He only makes 1 attack as opposed to taking the whole round to do nothing but recharge maneuvers as the Swordsage does.
And the crusader's recharge is the best because he has the smallest known disciplines (which have some overlapping between Devoted Spirit/Stone Dragon) and they're randomized.
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It's the weakest but with a standard action to attack (something he would do normally) he regains ALL of his maneuvers. So what's the draw-back?
He uses up his Swift Action for the round and cannot use any of his defensive counter maneuvers like the Diamond Mind Concentration check in place of one save. Adaptive Style is pretty much a required feat for Warblade and Swordsages.
It's the weakest but with a standard action to attack (something he would do normally) he regains ALL of his maneuvers. So what's the draw-back? He only makes 1 attack as opposed to taking the whole round to do nothing but recharge maneuvers as the Swordsage does.
The drawback is he can't use a maneuver on that turn, can't have used a counter in the previous turn, and can't initiate or change stances. Swordsages with Adaptive Style, on the other hand, can use swift action maneuvers (like Shadow Blink), can have used a counter in the previous turn, and can initiate or change stances, plus they can completely change their selected maneuvers. Oh, and Swordsages recover about twice as many expended maneuvers as Warblades do, because they have twice as many; your "fix" for a problem that isn't a problem means that not only do Warblades have the fewest maneuvers known and readied, they have far and away the worst recovery mechanism. It breaks them. It essentially forces them to take Adaptive Style, just like Swordsages have to.
And the crusader's recharge is the best because he has the smallest known disciplines (which have some overlapping between Devoted Spirit/Stone Dragon) and they're randomized.
No, the Crusader's recharge is the best because it's automatic with no action required by the Crusader and because you're guaranteed to have all your maneuvers refreshed every third round.
Well, it's nice to see we're not alone in using ToB. We think it does work well with Paizo/Pathfinder.
On the concentration issue...we use Martial Lore checks as that skill is universal to the ToB/Bo9S classes.
And here are our choices for the Discipline skills:
Desert wind: acrobatics
Devoted spirit: intimidate
Diamond mind: martial lore
Iron heart: acrobatics
Setting sun: sense motive
Shadow hand: stealth
Stone dragon: acrobatics
Tiger claw: athletics*
White raven: diplomacy
*We combine Jump/Climb/Swim into this and use it for all clases that get at least 2 of the three.
I love the book of nine swords for the ideas it provides. The fact that it was broken in comparison with 3.5 classes was always a big downer. Now in PFRPG it seems a lot better.
But I have one major grief with it, that is what the martial adepts do to the monk. They make monks look like complete dilletantes at using Ki. Let's look at it, according to the ToB blade magic is basically Ki manipulation, and what incredible things do these classes get out of that, while a monk gets a few Ki-Points he can spend on a one-round boost to speed AC or attacks. It just doesn't seem to fit. Monks should be the ones who are the masters of Ki.
and the fact that the Swordsage gets a similar AC bonus as the monk only together with actual armour seems unfitting. Considering that monks still get extra AC bonuses at higher level I guess its not unbalanced, but it still seems wrong to me.
But I have one major grief with it, that is what the martial adepts do to the monk.
They don't do anything to the Monk that the Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Barbarian, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, Druid, or Sorcerer doesn't. Monks suck. They're a broken class. Not as broken as the Truenamer, but broken nonetheless.
Chastising another class for exceeding the capabilities of a class that is brokenly underpowered is ... odd.
So the consensus is:
All ToB classes are balanced with PF classes and can be used immediately in any game.
Correct?
PS. Warblades get bonus feats that include all of the feats NPCs take, like Endurance, Diehard, Run, Quick Draw, etc. Would you make this a combat feat choice in conversion, or leave it as "At 5th level I get combat reflexes, and at 17th level I get run" level of usefulness.
So the consensus is:
All ToB classes are balanced with PF classes and can be used immediately in any game.
Correct?
That's certainly my opinion, but consensus on ToB tends to be a matter of thermonuclear war and being the last man standing rather than casual agreement. The best answer is to look over the mechanics of the book and compare it to actual game circumstances, or just try it out in a one-off when one of your players can't make the game, etc. Experience is the best arbiter, here.
PS. Warblades get bonus feats that include all of the feats NPCs take, like Endurance, Diehard, Run, Quick Draw, etc. Would you make this a combat feat choice in conversion, or leave it as "At 5th level I get combat reflexes, and at 17th level I get run" level of usefulness.
I'd leave it as is (though you're right, the list is pretty bad, not to mention in need of editing), but there are few enough bonus feats that you could probably replace it with "a bonus combat feat" and get away with it. Alternately you could add a few select feats to the list yourself.
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So the consensus is:
All ToB classes are balanced with PF classes and can be used immediately in any game.
Correct?
That's certainly my opinion, but consensus on ToB tends to be a matter of thermonuclear war and being the last man standing rather than casual agreement. The best answer is to look over the mechanics of the book and compare it to actual game circumstances, or just try it out in a one-off when one of your players can't make the game, etc. Experience is the best arbiter, here.
Scientific studies have shown that disputes about the Tome of Battle caused more violent escalations than the Bible and Quran together.
I might introduce the book to our PF games though, should i find a copy of it in a local store some day.
About that thing with monks being underpowered, what if we gave monks access to Martial maneuvers and stances the same way a swordsage has it?
Scientific studies have shown that disputes about the Tome of Battle caused more violent escalations than the Bible and Quran together.
It is just behind the word alignment, and 'gish' in terms of explosive potential. I believe they developed a new unit of measurement for the matter. Something that translated to Flames/Second I believe.
I might introduce the book to our PF games though, should i find a copy of it in a local store some day.
I have my copy and it is still on the shelf next to my pathfinder books, with the rest of my 3.5 books that i still use (which is not all of them).
About that thing with monks being underpowered, what if we gave monks access to Martial maneuvers and stances the same way a swordsage has it?
You would need to rework the whole class, alot of features, particularly those revolving around flurry of blows would be nearly pointless, as for the most part a user is going to want to use a manuever instead of flurrying (since it fits better with the mobility of a monk).
Tome of Battle causes earthquakes.
Dammit. So I'll have to wear my ToB underneath my shirt for a few days to increase popular awareness?
You would need to rework the whole class, alot of features, particularly those revolving around flurry of blows would be nearly pointless, as for the most part a user is going to want to use a manuever instead of flurrying (since it fits better with the mobility of a monk).
About that thing with monks being underpowered, what if we gave monks access to Martial maneuvers and stances the same way a swordsage has it?
Ah yes i forgot, strikes are all single-attack standard actions.
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Eeek, stay away from the Book of Weaboo Fightan Magic! Its poison. Worst, its was a test drive for 4.0!*
*Disclaimer: I don't hate EVERYTHING about 4.0, just the mechanics, its MMO approach and the fact it added some really stupid core races.
And just look at all those facts and clearly displayed logical reasonings.
I do like that last part though. "WORST, ITS WAS A TEST DRIVE FOR 4.0! NOT THAT I HATE IT OR ANYTHING!"
There's so much delightfully wrong here.
I won't comment on your grammar as god knows I'm bad in my own ways, but everything else seems so carefully thrown together. The "4.0" is of course a reference to how 'computer-ized' or 'digitallized' the system is, perhaps an MMO-related dig. The "I don't hate 4e" right after using "it was a test drive for 4e" as being literally the worst thing about it. That part's got style. Also lovely is the use of "Worst" when you have only one other descriptive, and your only description there is "its poison."
I lied. Let's make fun of grammar. "Its poison." Does that mean that Tome of Battle has poison? I could certainly see the argument there for banning the Book of Nine Swords; otherwise, once allowed into your house, the venomous writing will slowly seep into your fingers as you flip the pages, taking years off your life without you ever noticing. Wisdom and intelligence damage perhaps? It would explain the entire post.
Or perhaps the titular "its" refers to the book itself. Might the book, in fact, be sentient? The post reads like a knee-jerk badly typed unfinished rant because it is - the author is, in fact, at this very moment, on the run from his own copy of Tome of Battle, which is attempting to murder him as we type! That "its was used again for 4e is another reference that the author might indeed feel that the books are sentient.
Let us note momentarily the usage of "Weeaboo Fightan Magic." For those of you not in the know, this was a small meme on the Traditional Games subsection of 4chan used in the discussion of Tome of Battle, along side "CHARGE AN FULL ATTACK." The discussion - if it could be called that - bandied back and forth on whether or not it was alright for a martial class to have manuevers and other such abilities. The two insults exchanged involved accusations that Tome of Battle turned D&D into little more then that most dreaded and feared of art styles, the anime, god preserve our tabletop games from that horrifying yellow menace (and who says racism is dead?). The other insult was aimed at the opposing faction, claiming that they wanted fighters to do nothing more then, and I quote with the neccisary capital letters, "CHARGE AN FULL ATTACK," and that their goal was indeed to force fighters into that must dull and boring of positions, the NPC class, god preserve our tabletop games from those who enjoy simplistic mechanics.
The original poster's usage of "Weeaboo Fightan Magic" indeed throws the entire post into disarray. Is he merely trolling, using a tired old meme as a call sign? Does he actually believe what he (tried to) type out? If Tome of Battle is poisonous, and if it is indeed inspired by, at least in part, Japanese fiction, does that make the book a ninja? If an object cannot move, can it still flip out and kill people?
I'm afraid we may never know.
That was way too much fun to type out
That was way too much fun to type out
it was also fun to read.
/golfclap
Eeek, stay away from the Book of Weaboo Fightan Magic! Its poison. Worst, its was a test drive for 4.0!*
*Disclaimer: I don't hate EVERYTHING about 4.0, just the mechanics, its MMO approach and the fact it added some really stupid core races.
**Pure Awesome**
*joins the slow clap*
Well played sire, well played.
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I don't get the Bo9s hate. The reason I don't use it is because it adds one more (or, several more) mechanical subsystems to track, and that's my only criticism. As much as I don't like Exception-based Design, I also don't like the Let's Do It Totally Differently Design. But I guess that WotC didn't have the cojones to revamp the core classes and kept churning out "replacaments".
Hows about this: Maneuvers (from certain disciplines) as options for the New Quinggong Monk archetype? I was tying around with this, since the concept just seemed natural (at least, moreso than giving monks spells) and Blood Crow Strike just SCREAMS ToB.
Well, it's nice to see we're not alone in using ToB. We think it does work well with Paizo/Pathfinder.
On the concentration issue...we use Martial Lore checks as that skill is universal to the ToB/Bo9S classes.
This.
Martial lore seems like a natural choice for diamond mind since DM is based on perception of and reaction to combat. Furthermore martial lore is essentially spellcraft for blade magic, but without any ability to "counterspell" maneuvers its generally a skill that gets ignored. Attaching it to diamond mind means it'll get more use. Having the zen focus type school also know about other peoples styles just makes sense.