Monk attacks


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Does anyone else here find that monks having 7 attacks is a bit much?

They had 5 in the 3.5 and although 3 of those were at highest bab, they get 2 now at +3 bab and 2 at -2 bab (compared to 3.5e). Altogether this seems a bit too much, especially after Haste, Bard Song and enchanted gloves with Holy and Flaming (also new to 3P).


-Archangel- wrote:

Does anyone else here find that monks having 7 attacks is a bit much?

They had 5 in the 3.5 and although 3 of those were at highest bab, they get 2 now at +3 bab and 2 at -2 bab (compared to 3.5e). Altogether this seems a bit too much, especially after Haste, Bard Song and enchanted gloves with Holy and Flaming (also new to 3P).

Its not since the gold standard of melee carnage, the fighter, can easily equal and exceed the monks attacks and damage. The extra attacks are calculated as if they had a +1 BaB progressing and all the relevant two weapon fighting feats...without being able to use any of the TWF specific booster feats.

Grand Lodge

-Archangel- wrote:

Does anyone else here find that monks having 7 attacks is a bit much?

They had 5 in the 3.5 and although 3 of those were at highest bab, they get 2 now at +3 bab and 2 at -2 bab (compared to 3.5e). Altogether this seems a bit too much, especially after Haste, Bard Song and enchanted gloves with Holy and Flaming (also new to 3P).

From the Official D&D FAQ wrote:


Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her penalties on attack rolls?

A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for twoweapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.

A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows. Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this: +11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.

The Pathfinder rules for Flurry incorporate the two weapon fighting feat into it - this was done to save complication on the number crunching at the table.

So in answer to your question, No I dont think 7 attacks per round is too much for a monk.


Yes, but in 3.5e he could not use monk fists for two-weapon fighting. He had to use another weapon for offhand or for both hands. That means less damage and more feats needed to spend all other weapons and two-weapon fighting feats.

Now he gets 7 attacks with 2d10 fists and does not need to spend any feats for it.


Given that the negative comments on the Monk were as follows:


  • Flurry of blows = flurry of misses, because he can't hit an AC of a typical melee opponent of his level without a 20 regardless.

  • Damage is less than a fighter of equivilent level can dish out.

  • Ability to bypass damage resistance is limited as a fighter of equivalent level would at that stage be carrying several weapons of different materials.

The resoning behind this is that a fighter of equivalent level will have a +5 weapon of awesome damage, belt of strength etc. while the monk ... won't. He will at most have an amulet of mighty fists, less strength etc. Hence giving the monk more attacks at a higher BAB resolves these issues - the monk now has a better chance of hitting, which leads to more chance of overcoming DR, higher damage output per round etc. in one fell swoop.

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-Archangel- wrote:

Yes, but in 3.5e he could not use monk fists for two-weapon fighting. He had to use another weapon for offhand or for both hands. That means less damage and more feats needed to spend all other weapons and two-weapon fighting feats.

Now he gets 7 attacks with 2d10 fists and does not need to spend any feats for it.

From the errata above I think you are mistaken. A 3.5 monk should be able to attack using two-weapon fighting with just his fists.


Given the quality of magic weapons wavered around at end game, 7 attacks at 2d10 damage isnt overpowered. You dont know pain as a GM until a 20th level fighter kills an green wyrm in 2 rounds (by himself) monks wish they could do that.


cpt_machine wrote:
Given the quality of magic weapons wavered around at end game, 7 attacks at 2d10 damage isnt overpowered. You dont know pain as a GM until a 20th level fighter kills an green wyrm in 2 rounds (by himself) monks wish they could do that.

Try to equip a lvl 20 monk and you will see he does comparable if not even more damage. Then put in effects as Bard song (or similar effects) into play and the monk outdamages the fighter. The only thing fighter has over monk is more numerous critical hits (and monk does stunning strikes that work more reliably) but that balances itself as many monsters are immune to those (and probably high lvl NPCs as well).


You cannot put Bard song and similar effects to the math, cause fighters could get em too. And the critical hits do come in the math, as does all other abilities the Fighter gets.

I believe they are equivalent in combat, but the fighter would win by a slight margin, but he would.


Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

This has not changed much from 3.5 if you want to talk broken ability inflation look at Paladins.


Xum wrote:

You cannot put Bard song and similar effects to the math, cause fighters could get em too. And the critical hits do come in the math, as does all other abilities the Fighter gets.

I believe they are equivalent in combat, but the fighter would win by a slight margin, but he would.

Of course you can. Bard giving +5/+6 to damage is much better when you have 7 attacks then when you got 4 attacks. Any magical bonus to damage gives a much bigger bonus to monks then fighters.

Before (3.5e) monks could not get Holy or flaming fists, and now they can, so 7 attacks with those again give us more damage


-Archangel- wrote:

Yes, but in 3.5e he could not use monk fists for two-weapon fighting. He had to use another weapon for offhand or for both hands. That means less damage and more feats needed to spend all other weapons and two-weapon fighting feats.

Now he gets 7 attacks with 2d10 fists and does not need to spend any feats for it.

As per the most recent Sage ruling for 3.5, yes, the Monk (well, anyone really) could use one fist as his primary weapon and his other fist as his second weapon (and insert whatever he wanted in place of those two, so long as no more than two weapons were being used; i.e., do a headbutt, kick, kneekick, etc.) and thus TWF with just his unarmed strikes.

So he could in fact go full Flurry of Blows, take all the TWF feats on top of that, and net 8 attacks out of all that at high levels.


A fighter could also benefit from 2WP Fighting. So the point turns moot, unless we make the characters sheet.

The monk could not get the 2WPF Feats, cause when he uses flurry of blows it's as if he was using the feats, as the description to the abilities says, so he could not benefit twice.


If the above is in reference to my last post, I was referring to the 3.5 Monk (which is all the Sage ruling could apply to anyway), and not the Paizo Monk.

It's one fix that got through while many others did not, but I do applaud that part. It (Monks, FoB, and TWF) got how many questions in the 3.5 FAQ?


I just realized that a monk can make up to 11 attacks per round... that's painfull...


Xum wrote:
I just realized that a monk can make up to 11 attacks per round... that's painfull...

I'm curious...how do you factor this? Considering you can't take TWF twice to get double benifit, and that PF isn't 3.5 and the Sages Rules on 3.5 don't matter. Outside of magical effects (None of which I have seen as of yet add 4 attacks per round) that a fighter can gain access to, how do you come up with 11?

And Arc...Here...consider this...

A 20th level monk has the equivilent of 2d10 weapons, enhanced and enchanted (doable in PF), who, on full attack actions, has 7 attacks (base) + extra from magic (speed, haste, whatever your method of grabbing the extra 1, go for it). He has decently high physical scores (lets say all his started at 15 and he has a tome +5 and a belt of physical perfection), has taken weapon focus for his unarmed attack, and is using an amulet of mighty fists +5, and has even has some nice mage cast haste on him.

Your looking a flurry that looks (not counting temporary buffs) like this:
+32/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17 for 2d10 +13

Not, lets look at the 20th level dual weilding fighter. He has TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Double Slice, Exotic RP (Two bladed Sword), Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization all in said two bladed sword. Much like the monk, his class features favor using the two bladed sword (since the fighter gets to chose). He starts off with the same stats (15 in physical), gets the same +5 tome for all stats, the same belt of Physical perfection, a +5/+5 two bladed sword, and the same nice mage cast haste on him as well. His attacks look like this:

+37/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27/+22 for 1d8 +21

Same number of attacks, the fighter still has a pretty decent lead on attack bonus, but its not so much as to render the monk useless.

In damage per hit, the monk has on average dice rolls, 23 damage per hit (not counting a crit), the warrior does, on average, 25.5 damage per hit. Here, the fighter comes out only 2 points ahead, but he does come ahead.

Yes, both of them still have other class features that may or may not come into play, and the fighter at least has quite abit of enhancement room left on his weapon, but hopefully this illustrates that all the changes to flurry did was make them viable as frontline combatants if thats how you chose to play one, it hardly made them overpowered in comparision to the old standard of melee combat.

Grand Lodge

Krigare wrote:
quick analysis

To expand on this analysis of Krigares I put a quick comparison of a 20th lvl longsword/shortsword wielding fighter vs a 20th lvl monk unarmed together.

Both had 24 str and +5 weapons. ignoring haste or other buffs against a 35 AC creature the monk had a 47.85% hit ratio across his 7 attacks while the fighter had 66.25% with the longsword and 75% with the shortsword giving an average total of 70%.

assuming average damage for their respective weapons the monk would do 126 damage while the fighter does 129 +15 from two weapon rend, assuming maximum damage 189 for the monk and 152 +20 for the fighter

taking the hit ratio into account the monk does a average of 60.3 damage a round while the fighter does 89.9 +15 damage.

Now lets look at criticals

The monk criticals on a 19 or 20 (10% chance) for x2 damage so lets say he confirms 50% of his criticals. thats an increase of 5% damage taking the monks average damage to 63.4.

The fighter on the other hand criticals with both weapons 20% of the time (17-20) and automatically confirms criticals with the longsword for x3 damage. assuming the shortsword crits 50% like the monks attacks this increases the fighters average damage to 114.8 +15


Someone said something such as "monks can now have flaming gloves in Pathfinder"

I could be missing something but. Where are these rules for enchanting monk fists/gloves? I can't find such things.

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Astralplaydoh wrote:
Where are these rules for enchanting monk fists/gloves? I can't find such things.

See the new amulet of mighty fists. It can be enchanted with weapon special properties in addition to flat bonuses.


7 Attacks, +1 haste, +1 Ki, +2 Feat (forgot the name have to check) = 11 attacks


There's also (greater) magic weapon and (greater) magic fang, which can be made permanent.

Or you can keep a supply of them in the form of potions, wands, rings, etc.


Xum wrote:
7 Attacks, +1 haste, +1 Ki, +2 Feat (forgot the name have to check) = 11 attacks

Forgot that Ki can be used as a bonus attack. The feat Medusa's Wrath is situational though, requires an opponent to be affected by specific conditions.

Even the Ki bonus attack won't be in play every full attack...costs a Ki point to do, and the monks not exactly overflowing with Ki. At 20th level, its 10+ Wisdom bonus for Ki points.

Like I said...the monks good...but its not overpowered.


I agree with you, what I said was they CAN make 11 attacks, and that's a fearsome trait. I like it though, don't think it's overpowered at all.


Sigh. Here. Sample fighter - with issues, but high attack bonus and armor class. Compare that with your monk. Built using elite array ability scores

Michael
Fighter20
Lawful Good Male Human

LG Medium Humanoid (Human) (CR 16)
Init +11 (+7 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Senses Perception +0
Languages Common, Dwarven
______________

AC 51, touch 24, flat-footed 43 ; (+14 armor, +7 Dex, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +5 natural, +8 shield)
hp 234 (20d10 + 120) DR 5/-
CMD 54
Resist +5 vs. fear, fire 20
Fort +22, Ref +18, Will +11
______________

Speed 40ft.
Melee +5 holy flaming burst cold iron longsword +40/+35/+30/+25 (1d8 + 24 + 2d6 holy + 1d6 fire 17-20/x3 + 1d10 fire and staggered) and
+5 heavy steel shield of bashing +42/+37/+32 (1d8 + 19 + bull rush)
Ranged +4 composite longbow +38/+33/+28/+23 (1d8 + 15)
Base Atk +20, CMB +31
Attack Options Power Attack, Spring Attack
Combat Gear winged boots
_______________

Abilities Str 32, Dex 24, Con 20, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
SQ armor mastery, armor training (+4), weapon mastery, weapon training (+4 heavy blade, +3 close, +2 bows, +1 light blades)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Critical Focus, Dodge, Double Slice, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus (longsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (longsword), Improved Critical (longsword), Improved Initiative, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Power Attack, Shield Focus, Shield Master, Shield Slam, Spring Attack, Staggering Critical, Stand Still, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword)
Skills Acrobatics +27 (+36 jumping), Climb +34, Intimidate +22, Survival +23
Possessions +5 holy flaming burst cold iron longsword, +5 heavy steel shield of Bashing, +5 mithral full plate of improved fire resistance, +4 composite longbow, amulet of natural armor +5, belt of physical prowess +6, cloak of resistance +5, dusty rose ioun stone, ring of protection +5, tome of strength +4 (used), tome of dex +4 (used), tome of con +1 (used), winged boots of striding and springing, 28,000gp


Yah, Medusa's Wrath is situational, but all the best (read:biggest payoff) feats are. The only sad part about it is that you have to hit with two other, non-flurry attacks first (or use stunning fist, of course). Best part about those 11 attacks? the first 5 are made at +18 BAB, before factoring in stats and mods.

The Tactical Feats from Complete Warrior tried to do something similar (require a setup for a bigger paayoff), but they (almost) all sucked. Paizo, as with so many other things, does it better.


Ah, I forgot about the two-weapon fighting with shield cheese :D

Yes, fighter does it better this way :D

7 attacks and extra 8 to AC.

Dark Archive

Actually, Shield Mastery has been clarified by Jason as only adding the shield's base AC bonus as an enhancement bonus, so neither the shield's enhancement bonus to its shield bonus nor feats like shield focus and greater shield focus increase that enhancement bonus on attacks and damage.
Here and here.


Jadeite wrote:

Actually, Shield Mastery has been clarified by Jason as only adding the shield's base AC bonus as an enhancement bonus, so neither the shield's enhancement bonus to its shield bonus nor feats like shield focus and greater shield focus increase that enhancement bonus on attacks and damage.

Here and here.

The build above actually only adds the enchantment bonus, not the shield's AC bonus to attacks/damage, so really all that needs to be done is enchanting the shield as a +5 weapon and the above build actually nets +2 attack/damage....


The monk's problem is the same in Pathfinder as it was in 3.5 - too many scores too boost. Strength for damage? Dex for AC/Attack? Wisdom for AC/abilities? Con so he can take hits with his lower hit die? If he neglects wisdom his AC falls below what's acceptable for someone who can't spare points for Con. He can't afford to keep up in strength with the fighter in practice, so anyone who basis their comparison on the assertion that he can/has is flawed. That's why I posted my sample fighter.

I'd post my sample Monk, but he's built using a houseroll to allow them to add Wisdom in place of Strength or Dex to Attack.

Grand Lodge

Xum wrote:
I agree with you, what I said was they CAN make 11 attacks, and that's a fearsome trait. I like it though, don't think it's overpowered at all.

Fighters CAN make more attacks given the right situation to use Great cleave. Speaking of Great Cleave has anyone considered how Great Cleave interacts with Lunge?


Peter Stewart wrote:

The monk's problem is the same in Pathfinder as it was in 3.5 - too many scores too boost. Strength for damage? Dex for AC/Attack? Wisdom for AC/abilities? Con so he can take hits with his lower hit die? If he neglects wisdom his AC falls below what's acceptable for someone who can't spare points for Con. He can't afford to keep up in strength with the fighter in practice, so anyone who basis their comparison on the assertion that he can/has is flawed. That's why I posted my sample fighter.

I'd post my sample Monk, but he's built using a houseroll to allow them to add Wisdom in place of Strength or Dex to Attack.

Monks do not need to spend large sums on money of different weapons for different opponents. They only need to get amulet of mighty fists.

They do not need to get a crazy armor. So they can invest money to +6 to all 4 stats they need as well as into tomes. Bracers of armor +8 works great.
They can focus on strength as main attack stat and leave Dex only for extra ac and reflex save (same as that fighter posted up there).

Dark Archive

-Archangel- wrote:


Monks do not need to spend large sums on money of different weapons for different opponents. They only need to get amulet of mighty fists.

An amulet of mighty fists +5 costs 125k. Two +5 weapons cost a little more than 100k. For a bit over 128k, you can get a +8 weapon.

A high level monk is able to break DR/magic, DR/lawful and DR/adamantine. But those would be penetrable with any +5 weapon. His unarmed strike normally has no way of penetrating bludgeoning and slashing DR.
Also, a fighter would easily be able to purchase a +5 keen flaming greatsword of speed. If the monk would want such enchantments, he'd end up with a keen flaming amulet of mighty fists of speed, without any enhancement bonus on attacks.
Also, what would a fighter need different weapons for? Greater penetrating strike allows to ignore up to 10 points of DR.

Quote:
They do not need to get a crazy armor. So they can invest money to +6 to all 4 stats they need as well as into tomes. Bracers of armor +8 works great.

A mithral fullplate +5 costs 35.5 k, a little more than half the price of bracers of armor +8, granting an AC bonus 6 points higher. A fighter could also further enhance his armor with effects like heavy fortification. If a monk wanted heavy fortification, he'd end up with heavy fortification bracers of armor +3.

I somehow fail to see how amulets of mighty fists and bracers of armor could be seen as better than a magic weapon and magic armor, except maybe that bracers of armor also protect against incorporeal touch attacks.


-Archangel- wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:

The monk's problem is the same in Pathfinder as it was in 3.5 - too many scores too boost. Strength for damage? Dex for AC/Attack? Wisdom for AC/abilities? Con so he can take hits with his lower hit die? If he neglects wisdom his AC falls below what's acceptable for someone who can't spare points for Con. He can't afford to keep up in strength with the fighter in practice, so anyone who basis their comparison on the assertion that he can/has is flawed. That's why I posted my sample fighter.

I'd post my sample Monk, but he's built using a houseroll to allow them to add Wisdom in place of Strength or Dex to Attack.

Monks do not need to spend large sums on money of different weapons for different opponents. They only need to get amulet of mighty fists.

They do not need to get a crazy armor. So they can invest money to +6 to all 4 stats they need as well as into tomes. Bracers of armor +8 works great.
They can focus on strength as main attack stat and leave Dex only for extra ac and reflex save (same as that fighter posted up there).

Put up or shut up please. Show me your 20th level monk that matches up with the above fighter. It was arguments precisely of this nature that lead me to stat the fighter during the beta. Arguing "could" without having to provide concrete statistics is both easy and pointless.

Bracers of Armor +8 are in no way the equal of +5 mithral full plate which grants a +14 AC bonus for less than half the cost.

The amulet of mighty fists is in no way the equal of a +7 weapon which costs less. Your argument that the fighter needs different weapons holds no weight - if that is your stance the same limitation applies just as easily to the monk who must worry more than the fighter about damage reduction given the fact that the fighter will almost universally have better damage.

Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000)
Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (125,000)
Belt of Physical Perfection +6 (144,000)
Headband of Wisdom +6 (36,000)
Tome of Wisdom +5 (137,500)
Tome of Strength +5 (137,500)
Tome of Dex +5 (137,500)

You have already spent 780,000 out of 880,000.


Peter Stewart wrote:
Put up or shut up please. Show me your 20th level monk that matches up with the above fighter.

Although I agree the monk is no better than the fighter (and both still tote the full casters' lugagge), in your demonstration you're committing what I like to call the Capstone Fallacy. 20th level fighter comparisons are meaningless because they rely on a capstone ability that 99.9% of the time will never be used in actual game play. A Commoner NPC with the 20th level capstone of meteor swarm at will is still just a commoner in almost every campaign anyone will ever play in.

Recommendations:
1. Compare 10th or 15th level characters to get far more meaningful results.
2. Telling people to "shut up" gets people nothing but a nice holiday from the boards, in the long run.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
Put up or shut up please. Show me your 20th level monk that matches up with the above fighter.

Although I agree the monk is no better than the fighter (and both still tote the full casters' lugagge), in your demonstration you're committing what I like to call the Capstone Fallacy. 20th level fighter comparisons are meaningless because they rely on a capstone ability that 99.9% of the time will never be used in actual game play. A Commoner NPC with the 20th level capstone of meteor swarm at will is still just a commoner in almost every campaign anyone will ever play in.

Recommendations:
1. Compare 10th or 15th level characters to get far more meaningful results.
2. Telling people to "shut up" gets people nothing but a nice holiday from the boards, in the long run.

I disagree with your assertion that fighters and other melee characters "tote the full casters' luggage". They have a purpose in the game that they carry out fantastically. You are committing what I like to call the Optimization/Ideal Fallacy, whereby you assume that the characters involved are perfectly optimized and are living in an ideal world that allows them to confront every encounter on their own terms. It is my experience, based on both homegrown campaigns and campaigns from Dungeon that rarely are things so perfectly configured for the PCs. Often they are forced to fight from positions of weakness, in locations that are not favorable, without the ability to bring their full abilities to bare. In part the game is balanced on the assumption that your characters live in a game world and that their actions have consequences. That they have objectives beyond killing things and taking their stuff, and that they are not terminators played by those who really want to play a war/miniatures game. That however is a topic for another thread.

My assertion would actually be that the fighter is significantly better than the monk, not it's equal. Ultimately this is because, as I noted above, despite the many abilities the monk has many of them have limited applicability to filling a role in the game - namely beating things to death. Ultimately the monk and ranger to an extent are classes looking for a purpose within the game. They aren't utility characters - lacking meaningful spellcasting, they aren't frontline characters given their low ACs, hit points, and attack/damage compared to the big three (Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin), and they aren't really effective secondary combatants/skill characters compared to the rogue.

You are exaggerating greatly in saying that 99.9% of games never reach 20th level. That said, I agree that comparing 20th level characters as the barometer of balance is flawed. My doing so here was a response to assertions made about the 20th level monks full attack/flurry of blows. I was directly responding to a criticism of the 20th level monk and addressing those who felt that it measured up too favorably against the fighter. Asserting that such is fallacy is in itself fallacious. If direct assertions cannot be addressed than there is no basis for any rational discussion. Speaking in broad terms is useful for framing the direction of a discussion, but at some point specifics must be addressed. You could just as easily call comparing 10th level characters fallacious, since that only measures their comparison 1/20th of the time.

I didn't do anything so curt as to simply tell someone to shut up. I issued a direct challenge. "Put up or shut up". Either provide evidence to back your claim that isn't simply conjecture or concede the point. Arguing using straw men isn't conducive to a productive discussion on the boards. Further, I resent your mini-moding, and it has been my experience that many moderators do as well. If the fine folks at Paizo wish to address the tone of my posts I will be happy do change it, until then I feel no need to cuddle people who continue to show their unwillingness to contribute productively to the discussion.

Grand Lodge

My only concern for Monks is the uselessness of monk flagged weapons. sure you'll still want to carry round a sai to do piercing damage or a kama for slashing but once your past the first few levels these are still as useless as they where in 3.5 if not more so. The only monk weapons worth using are shuriken (ranged).

I'm tempted to house rule that a monk flagged weapon when used by a monk is treated as an unarmed attack, allowing the monk to use his increased unarmed damage in place of the weapons listed damage and a monks ki pool to enhance the weapons.

Some things concern me regarding aspects such as is it balanced to let a monk's quarterstaff (ki focused to work like adamantine) do 2d10 damage when used to sunder a sword but its generally very minor things. The cost aspect outlined above would also be affected. a monk could have +10 effective weapons doing 2d10 as part of a flurry but at the same time his weapons are now viable targets for disarm and sunder (where as his fists are immune)


Quijenoth wrote:
My only concern for Monks is the uselessness of monk flagged weapons. sure you'll still want to carry round a sai to do piercing damage or a kama for slashing but once your past the first few levels these are still as useless as they where in 3.5 if not more so. The only monk weapons worth using are shuriken (ranged).

Personally I like to carry around a cold iron and a silver monk weapon, just in case. But I'm also disappointed that weapon-using monks kind of got the shaft (except for the fact that a magic weapon is much cheaper than an amulet of mighty fists).

(Also note that sais do blunt damage, not piercing.)


But can't monk's fist be enchanted the same way weapons can?
Readind SRD I had that impression...


Why the Monk works: because sometimes I want to play a guy that punches things.

The end.


Kaandorian wrote:
But can't monk's fist be enchanted the same way weapons can?

Monte Cook asked the same question. (See the Book of Experimental Might 2 and/or Arcana Evolved feat list for details.)

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