Tiny creatures, AoO, Reach Weapons, and Flanking

[James Risner]

In 3.5, Tiny creatures gained 5' reach with a reach weapon (so they can attack into adjacent squares but not in squares they occupy and take AoO.) They also provided flanking for allies in adjacent square to the opponent they currently occupy the same space.

Neither of these two seem to be in PRPG. Anyone have anything to comment on these? Am I missing something? Are the rules in PRPG?

[137ben]

Probably they aren't in PFRPG because they aren't in 3.5 either. The PHB rules on Reach Weapons make no mention of non-medium-sized creatures, except to refer the reader to "big and little creatures" on pg 149 of the PHB. That section of the combat chapter does say

PHB, pg 150 wrote:

Large or larger creatures using reach weapons can strike up to

double their natural reach but can’t strike at their natural reach
or less. For example, an ogre with a Large longspear could strike
with the longspear at opponents 15 or 20 feet away, but not at
those 5 or 10 feet away.

However, it makes no mention of what happens if a tiny creature uses a reach weapon, nor does it even acknowledge the possibility.

The Rules Compendium, however, does ultimately rules on Reach Weapons for undersized characters:

Rules Compendium, pg 150 wrote:

A reach weapon is a melee weapon

that allows its wielder to strike at
targets that aren’t adjacent. Most
reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, allowing the
wielder to attack at that reach but
not within its normal reach. A typical Small or Medium wielder of such
a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A Large wielder wielding a reach
weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or
20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to
10 feet away. Tiny or smaller creatures gain no advantage
from reach weapons.

(Emphasis mine).

The reorganization and clarifications in the Rules Compendium are not OGC, so Paizo couldn't copy and paste that rule into Pathfinder. They were left only with what the PHB says on the subject of tiny reach weapons: nothing.

[Hugo Rune]

The game treats small and medium creatures as occupying a 5' square and bases the target ranges for normal and reach weapons accordingly. If the game was played using predominantly large sized creatures then playing on a 10' square grid would make sense and the scaling of normal and reach weapons is consistent with that. Likewise, if playing a game where most of the creatures were tiny, then a 2.5' grid would make more sense. In such a case a normal tiny weapon has a range of 2.5', effectively 0 on a 5' square grid. But a reach weapon would have a range of 5' and be able to attack adjacent squares on a 5' grid, but couldn't attack in their own square.

Of course that is just my interpretation and so would be a houserule, YMMV.

[Ascalaphus]

There's no explicit rule for this, but implicitly it seems that tiny monsters with reach weapons get 5ft reach. Example: Twigjack. That creature is clearly supposed to also try flanking for Sneak Attack.

Now, computing flanking if one of the would-be flankers has 0ft reach and is in the defendant's square doesn't work. After all, to flank you have to draw a line between opposing sides or corners of the defendant's space, and you can't do that if one of the attackers is in that space. But if two tiny creatures have 5ft reach and are on opposing sides of a creature, that works just fine.

[Tindalen]

Barring explicit call outs on rules, implied official sources should do.

I believe Ascalaphus was absolutely correct in sighting the twigjack.

Quote:

Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft. (5 ft. with spear)

Unless there is a ruling elsewhere, you must assume that the twigjack is not breaking the rules.

[Ascalaphus]

Reach weapons normally double your natural reach, but apparently 0ft * 2 = 5 ft. While mathematically not so shiny, it makes sense in practice.

[Melkiador]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Reach weapons normally double your natural reach, but apparently 0ft * 2 = 5 ft. While mathematically not so shiny, it makes sense in practice.

I like to think of their reach as being 2.5 feet, but you have to round down to 0.

[James Risner]

137ben wrote:

The reorganization and clarifications in the Rules Compendium are not OGC, so Paizo couldn't copy and paste that rule into Pathfinder. They were left only with what the PHB says on the subject of tiny reach weapons: nothing.

That is more like Errata in the Rules Compendium.

The 3.5 DMG on page 29 wrote:

Because Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine creatures have no natural reach, they do not normally get attacks of opportunity. Specific creatures may be exceptions, and some may carry reach weapons that do threaten adjacent squares.

So a reach weapon on a creature provides for 5 ft reach, and does threaten. James Jacobs said 7 months after my post that they have reach of 5 feet.

This brings back memories. I had two major complains about PF at the time. Cleric Heavy Plate nerf and the tiny reach removal. I didn't know at the time that Rules Compendium took away a toy of mine.