I'm going to be a player in a Council of Thieves campaign and I have a character concept in mind for a bard I'd like to play. However, I am a bit hesitant to commit to this class, as I am not sure that the bard can really ever be more than a support character, especially in group with more than four players that fill the standard character roles.
I think it's not really possible to make a bard that can participate meaningfully in combat encounters, especially if he wants to take part in melees. Well, you can take feats like Weapon Finesse and so on to get decent attack bonuses and armor classes, but I think you'll never be able to deal significant damage; basically you'll be stuck with 1d6+1 (or so) forever, which might be ok at first level but later on you might as well not attack.
I get the feeling that most of the time the bard will stand back and inpsire courage or on occasion inspire greatness later on. I'm not sure that combat encounters won't get boring after a while, and I don't really want to play a character that feel like I'm playing a cohort most of the time.
I know, I could keep in the back and cast sleep or confusion and so on, but I could do that and much more with a wizard or sorcerer, too.
I'd really like to play a bard, but I'm not convinced it'll be fun outside of role-playing and social encounters. Combat encounters usually make up a significant part of Paizo APs - and there is nothing wrong with that - and I just don't want to be relegated to the side line during these.
So, is it possible to get more out of the bard that I'm overlooking perhaps? I'd be grateful for any tips to convince me.
Edit: We will be using the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook only, augmented with selected options from other Pathfinder books like, for example, the Campaign Setting. No Wizards splat books.
The bard is the second best at everything- decent enchanter, sub-par fencer or archer, mediocre healer/support mage- who makes up for his deficiencies by singing the party's theme song and making them all badasses.
(at least, in theory. I'm not sure if Inspire Courage quite makes up for it, especially in 3.P when all other classes have been boosted, but that's a different thread. +4 to attack/damage for the whole gang IS quite a boost, especially in a martial party).
Honestly? My word to you is, the bard as written just isn't for everyone. If you want spotlight, go sorcerer.
Basically I want to play some flashy swashbucklerish type and what I read about the background for this AP in the Cheliax companion and CoT Player's Guide really made me interested in a bard. My runner-up character choice is a Fighter gunning for Duelist, but I'd prefer the bard purely for character reasons. Also a lot of other players have already stated melee-type preferences.
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The fighter- I can kill a guy in one turn.
The cleric - I can kill a guy in half a turn.
The wizard - I can kill a guy before my turn.
The bard - I can get three idiots to kill guys for me.
If you're going to become a bard to be doing the big damage in combat you're going into the class for the wrong reasons. Inspire courage increases damage output per turn by +1-+5 per party member. The point of damage that took down the BBEG, that was your damage you own it.
On top of that while your allies risk their HP and spend their resources fighting enemies, you can just talk your way out of trouble. You'll never be equal to a fighter, rogue or wizard for damage output, but you've got the skills to convince everyone in Westcrown that you were the big hero every time!
The following post may or may not be of any help to you, but I'm offering my opinion in hopes that maybe it'll sway you to play one. Here we go:
I believe it was DM_Blake who said something along the lines of "A bard is basically the robin in a party full of batmans. Sure, robin can help you do badass stuff, but robin himself is never badass." I thought it was a good representation of the class, but I love bards.
I'm no mechanical genius here, but I play a bard for the role playing, not so much to do awesomely cool things (not that a bard is incapable of doing such things, it just doesn't come as naturally). I think it's fun to head into town and use your insane Bluff skill to brag about how you slew the dragon single-handedly while the rest of party just stood and watched in awe. It's things like those that really nail your bard into your groups history. But, you're probably looking for more mechanical reasons to play one (you've got the flashy backstory covered), and I don't blame you for it. If I were talented in the least bit on character optimization, I would present some options for you, but knowing me I'll probably lead you down some "path to darkness" or something.
But hey, a bard isn't for everyone. They tend to be hit or miss, so I've seen, but I'm sure there's some feats or skills or whatnot that can help you really achieve your goal.
Good luck and happy gaming!
I don't know if I necessarily want to strongly convince you to play the bard. An AP can last a really long time, and it would suck to play something that you hated. However, I would suggest trying it. In my own games, I've had players take the chance and they found that it was much more enjoyable to have a unique set of skills to bring to the table. If you're just another guy swinging a weapon, are you going to enjoy the game more, or be in competition with the other players?
For example, consider a group of combat oriented characters. In most dungeons, not everyone can be in the front line wading through combat, especially in tight environments. A cleric, wizard, or bard however can still contribute.
And outside of combat, I would expect a bard to really shine. This AP also seems to have quite a bit of role-play / skill based encounters.
I hope that's helpful, and have a great game.
Basically I want to play some flashy swashbucklerish type and what I read about the background for this AP in the Cheliax companion and CoT Player's Guide really made me interested in a bard.
Well, by choosing the bard you're already halfway there. Spice it up with Weapon Finesse and Arcane Strike, use your Versatile Performance (dance) to perform dazzling acrobatics, Versatile Performance (comedy) plus Dazzling Display to demoralize your opponents and Shatter Defences to take advantage of it (talk about killing joke).
Oh, please play a bard. Please. That way I'll be sure to win! MUAHA!
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I would do two things if I played a Bard.
First choose guitar for my instrument and make sure I get it enchanted like a weapon so I can strum away and use it to do some occasional bludgeoning damage as well. If you ever saw Paul Stanley of KISS smash his guitar on stage you know that would do some damage. Just make sure the guitar stays in one piece.
Second, I would get a copy of Guitar Hero and during combat flip it on. Make sure the GM has agreed that your XP award is tied with the score you get. That way you can have something to do while the rest of the party is engaged in REAL combat.
I would do two things if I played a Bard.
First choose guitar for my instrument and make sure I get it enchanted like a weapon so I can strum away and use it to do some occasional bludgeoning damage as well. If you ever saw Paul Stanley of KISS smash his guitar on stage you know that would do some damage. Just make sure the guitar stays in one piece.
Second, I would get a copy of Guitar Hero and during combat flip it on. Make sure the GM has agreed that your XP award is tied with the score you get. That way you can have something to do while the rest of the party is engaged in REAL combat.
Awesome. Pure Awesome.
I'M DOING THIS.
Honestly? My word to you is, the bard as written just isn't for everyone.
Hydro has a point.
The bard IS cool to play, but (especially) in organized play where characters tend to be even more focused than your typical dinning-table campaign, expect to be second best at what your fellow characters do, and poorly fill-in for the absent role.
yet, who knows? I had my share of "spotlight" time with my half-orc bard-barian in Living Greyhawk...
'findel
Versatile Performance (Ex): At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.
The types of Perform and their associated skills are: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).
So as a reward for taking a skill you needed anyway you can use your performance as a substitute for 2 other skills that you will never have to put a point into. By level 14 you can have 4 different perform skills applying to 8 unrelated skills.
The fighter- I can kill a guy in one turn.
The cleric - I can kill a guy in half a turn.
The wizard - I can kill a guy before my turn.
The bard - I can get three idiots to kill guys for me.If you're going to become a bard to be doing the big damage in combat you're going into the class for the wrong reasons. Inspire courage increases damage output per turn by +1-+5 per party member. The point of damage that took down the BBEG, that was your damage you own it.
On top of that while your allies risk their HP and spend their resources fighting enemies, you can just talk your way out of trouble. You'll never be equal to a fighter, rogue or wizard for damage output, but you've got the skills to convince everyone in Westcrown that you were the big hero every time!
I'll echo most of this, one key point to owning a Bard's performance is to actually own it. Know that it is your bonus to attack and damage that is ending combats faster.
However Music isn't all. Don't get trapped in the music buffing mind frame. A bard can do so much more then be a passive sound track in combat.
Look at the Legacy of Fire Player's Guide for the scorpion whip (I think its called), which allows you to do real damage with a 15 ft melee range. Bard are the only class that can use the Whip without the extra proficiency... and the should have it on hand as a combat option. Even under the 3.5 Bard you could perform and attack with the whip in the same turn. Sometimes better then attacking was to use the Aid Another option to further boost your melee friend. This allow you to 'buff' yet remain active in the combat instead of passive.
Other areas to look at are Illusion spells. A key point about illusions is that they are 'real' until they are interactive with, touched/attack/etc. Creative placements of illusions give the Bard battlefield control. At mid-levels I used to use Mirror Image on myself and then use an illusion spell to duplicate our party fighter, or more then one if I could manage, to hide him in a crowd of illusory doubles. If the foe failed their save they wouldn't be able to tell the illusions from the real fighter without taking extra steps and time. If they passed... well that was one waisted attack on the wrong target at least.
Another funny illusion, caltrops. Easy to use with silent image. Likewise adding 'objects' to the field is great control on intelligent creatures. For example if your in the woods and you have Druid companion, create illusory 'thick looking' hedge walls. Against non-casters illusions work handlly because they often have weak saves and have a hard time IDing what spell you actually cast.
The Bard is really a smorgasbord board of interesting abilities that rewards creative and tactical thinking. For veteran players it really is a class to try all kinds of combination tactics you just don't get in other classes.
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Are you intending to be a straight bard or are you okay with being multi-class? in this case, go bard but take 5-6 levels of duelist so that you can qualify for all the Vital Strike tree of feats and then play up the mobility with spring attack while attacking for 4d6+duelist level with a high crit rate and whatever critical feats you can stack with it. You won't be a fighter, but you're not going to feel useless with melee combat in the slightest.
You'll be able to move in and strike, most likely criting while your high mobile AC makes counter attacks unlikely. I would only go about 6 levels at most of duelist if you want to keep your focus on your bardic goodies.
The new *flexibility* provided by versatile performance is nice. It allows you to learn several different perform skills to flesh out the RP aspects of your bard, and rewards you with doubling those skill points used. (since the perform skills can now apply to sets of 'real' skills.)
Thanks for all the tips so far! I'm still thinking about it.
The most important point is not that I feel that I don't contribute but more out of character ennui that might set in if all I get to do in encounters like that is inspire abilities.
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Thanks for all the tips so far! I'm still thinking about it.
The most important point is not that I feel that I don't contribute but more out of character ennui that might set in if all I get to do in encounters like that is inspire abilities.
Bard requires access to the spell compendium to do anything close to active roles in the party. The biggest problem being, is there aren't a lot of damaging attack spells that they can preform. You'll be like a rogue that doesn't rely on flanks for awhile.
I won't however say that the bard is a bad class, it is an excellent class. It just doesn't work in the way many dungeon crawlers enjoy. The fact that they've made bard songs sustain as a free action helps mitigate this, and now lyrical song isn't as important. However, there isn't much I can offer a bard that Pathfinder offers yet, merely because PF hasn't had a chance to incorporate more of the wide world of 3.5 into its folds.
Bard 5 Barbarian 1 Dragon Disciple 4 Eldritch Knight 10
Arcane Strike, Power Attack, Vital Strike (et al) weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus
Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10 Wis 8, Cha 14 (15 point build)
DD will get you +4 to your str +3 natural armor, Bard gets you +2 attack and damage, Barbarian gets you rage, Eldritch knight gets you fighter feats, bonus feats and more spell casting:
All told +17 BAB, CL 17, 5d8+5d12+10d10 HD, with nice saves. Cast in light armor (with shields if you like).
Honestly though a straight bard with arcane strike and power attack comes in close to the fighter on damage, due to his bardic music, and good hope.
Don't dump dex, but str is more important and you can stand a lost of some dex. Personally the stats I presented above would work fine for a straight bard too.
In fact at eighth level with good hope and bardic music you are +4 to hit + 4 on damage, with arcane strike giving another + 2 damage, str 18 giving +6 with a long spear, and power attack giving +6 damage for only -2 to hit you'll look like this with a long spear +2:
To hit: 6(base)+4(str)+2(ic)+2(gh)+2(magic)-2(pa) = +14
Damage: 1d8+6(str)+2(ic)+2(gh)+6(pa)+2(magic)+2(as) = 24
A fighter with the same strength using a great sword +2 with weapon focus and specialization in addition to power attack would be:
To hit: 8(base)+4(str)+1(wt)+2(gwf)+2(magic)-3(pa) = +14
Damage: 2d6+6(str)+2(ws)+1(wt)+2(magic)+9(pa) = 27
Scary ain't it? The bard of course doesn't have as many HP (but he can choose to have his favored class bonus go to HP which would help) or as much AC, however he does have spells to assist in this as well.
This is ignoring the fact that the bard could buff the fighter in the party with good hope and inspire courage in addition to himself giving the fighter +4 to hit and damage as well (so why don't I include this in the above? Because those are stand alone numbers, just the bard compared to just the fighter).
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Dazzling Display...
A dazzing smile while you whirl your rapier at familiy jewels height...
I like Bards, they are smart, they may not be the crunchiest class, but they have a certain personality to them...and with CHA as their main stat..UMD, Intimidate, Feint...
I would like a sneakier bard, like make a Deadly Feint feat, that gives 1d6 sneak attack damage whenever you succeed at your feint. (yes, make that 1d6 add to your sneak attack dmg)
I believe it was DM_Blake who said something along the lines of "A bard is basically the robin in a party full of batmans. Sure, robin can help you do badass stuff, but robin himself is never badass." I thought it was a good representation of the class, but I love bards.
Hey, look at me! I got quoted. It's almost like being famous...
What I said is painfully true, but it's only painful if you want to play a batman. As long as you're OK with being Robin, there's plenty for Robin to do.
Obviously I haven't seen Council of Thieves, but I may not have ever heard a title of an adventure/AP that sounds more well-suited to bards than this one. I hoep it lives up to what its name suggests.
Pathfinder toned down many of the Save-or-Die/Suck spells by giving the victims multiple saves to end the effects, but they can still be quite useful, especially if you really max out your magical aptitude. You've already mentioned that the party looks to be melee heavy, so if you do consider a bard, consider making him a very magical bard. Let those melee guys do their thing while you drop Fear, Confusion, Grease, Hideous Laughter, Hypnotism, and Sleep (that's just the level one possibilities) to obliterate foes. Sure, Hideous Laughter does no damage, and chances are Valderos will get the killing blow, but knowing that that big old bad guy laid there on the ground for 3 rounds, doing no damage, waiting for your allies to hack it to shreds, is far more satisfying anyway.
So, with a melee-heavy group, you will have the bag of skills, awesome spell firepower, and all your bardic buffs to let them chop up the baddies better. You'll be the hero of the hard fights ("hey, look, the BBG is sleeping while we mop up his minions!"), the hero of the little fights ("we sure are mowing through these orcs fast with that fancy bardic music!"), and the hero of the non-fights ("sweet, once again it's the bard with just the right skill to find the trap, scale the wall, bluff the guard, intimidate the hostage, decipher the runes, swim across the moat, sneak past the soldiers, etc., etc., etc.).
You will shine so often that those big ol' melee brutes won't be able to see the monsters amidst your radiance.
But, yeah, they will dish out more damage than you. Fact of life. Don't play Robin if you want to kick badguy butt.
dudes
Dude, David Bowie? Come on.
Studies say one out of ten, dude!
Okay, I'll give you that. Still...
dudesDude, David Bowie? Come on.
Wait... so instead of drooling over Cristina Scabia (Lacuna Coil), Tarja Turunen (ex-Nightwish), Sharon den Adel (Within Temptation), you instead chose to focus on Bowie?
I'm not sayin'... I'm just sayin'... ;)
BTW, this dude also digs Simone Simons and Amanda Somerville (Epica), Anette Olzon (Nightwish), and even Gwen Stefani sometimes. Female bards are teh hawtness!
Good choices Mikaze!
That main character, Alis Landale, was the first female hero I'd ever seen who wasn't scantily clad, butch, or a wimp. In fact, she was the 1st female lead I'd ever seen in a video game. Alis was 2nd-best at magic and combat, but was the party's leader and could even play instruments to let the party pass overland or exit dungeons without risking random encounters.
Along-side the rock star archetype, that's the "other" bard archetype that I've always thought of as important in an RPG.
Sounds like that despite your situation, what you really want is either a finesse fighter with a special feat build or acrobatic rogue who'd have a nice big package of skills for a variety of situations. "Hello there Mr. Tumble and Sneak Attack". The Bard is a good candidate but it requires juggling a lot of very limited options. And it really isn't the one for you if you are not happy with a character that's not going to be dominant in combat.
No you misunderstand, my main concern is that *as a player* I might possibly mostly be doing next to nothing during combat encounters, it's not mainly about character power. I know that that bard can feel proud that it was the damage bonuses he granted turned the fight, but if there's a fight that might go on for an hour of playing time and all I can do most of the time - again as a player - is say "I continue my performance and stand back", that might become boring to play after while.
That aside, I've taken a lot of interesting points from this thread already and I thank all everyone who made helpful suggestions!
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Sounds like that despite your situation, what you really want is either a finesse fighter with a special feat build or acrobatic rogue who'd have a nice big package of skills for a variety of situations. "Hello there Mr. Tumble and Sneak Attack". The Bard is a good candidate but it requires juggling a lot of very limited options. And it really isn't the one for you if you are not happy with a character that's not going to be dominant in combat.No you misunderstand, my main concern is that *as a player* I might possibly mostly be doing next to nothing during combat encounters, it's not mainly about character power. I know that that bard can feel proud that it was the damage bonuses he granted turned the fight, but if there's a fight that might go on for an hour of playing time and all I can do most of the time - again as a player - is say "I continue my performance and stand back", that might become boring to play after while.
That aside, I've taken a lot of interesting points from this thread already and I thank all everyone who made helpful suggestions!
Continuing a performance is a free action so once you start singing you can do other exciting stuff while still getting the effects. Assuming you have enough rounds per day, of course.
As a flashy swashbuckler type, I'd seriously consider going down the Combat Expertise/Trip and Disarm route. Especially with a whip. Nothing annoys charging foes than having someone trip them up from 15 ft away and let the melee specialists pound away. Granted, this will require four feats to be effective (or five if you want to get Combat Reflexes and trip people as they come in to fight you and your allies with your whip), but it fits the theme.
I'm going to be a player in a Council of Thieves campaign and I have a character concept in mind for a bard I'd like to play. However, I am a bit hesitant to commit to this class, as I am not sure that the bard can really ever be more than a support character, especially in group with more than four players that fill the standard character roles.
I think it's not really possible to make a bard that can participate meaningfully in combat encounters, especially if he wants to take part in melees. Well, you can take feats like Weapon Finesse and so on to get decent attack bonuses and armor classes, but I think you'll never be able to deal significant damage; basically you'll be stuck with 1d6+1 (or so) forever, which might be ok at first level but later on you might as well not attack.
I get the feeling that most of the time the bard will stand back and inpsire courage or on occasion inspire greatness later on. I'm not sure that combat encounters won't get boring after a while, and I don't really want to play a character that feel like I'm playing a cohort most of the time.
I know, I could keep in the back and cast sleep or confusion and so on, but I could do that and much more with a wizard or sorcerer, too.
I'd really like to play a bard, but I'm not convinced it'll be fun outside of role-playing and social encounters. Combat encounters usually make up a significant part of Paizo APs - and there is nothing wrong with that - and I just don't want to be relegated to the side line during these.
So, is it possible to get more out of the bard that I'm overlooking perhaps? I'd be grateful for any tips to convince me.
Edit: We will be using the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook only, augmented with selected options from other Pathfinder books like, for example, the Campaign Setting. No Wizards splat books.
By this point you have to play a Bard, dude. Maybe you can play two characters.
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Bards are one of the most under rated classes out there. It all changes with one word on the Inspire Courage. Inspire Courage grants a +1 competence bonus on attack and damage rolls. At 5th level and every 6 levels there after this bouns incresses by 1. Inspire Courage use to be a morale bouns. At level 7 bards can start a preformance as a move action. This alows them to cast a spell in the same round. That means with the right spell lets say good hope. Level 7 Bard round 1 ( Move action Inspire Courage +2 competence bouns to hit and damage ) ( Standard action cast good hope +2 moral bouns to hit, damage, skills, and Saves ) yes in one round a level 7 bard gave the party a +4 to hit, and damage +2 to skills, and saven throws.
That and with a finess build with two weapon fighting. Rapier and Bear Mug yep my god is Cayden Cailean. Improvised weapon Mastery makes it a lot better then I hade hoped for. And the best part is Bards that worship Cayden Cailean have Knock on there spell list at level 2. I love my bard my party can't wate for me to get Haste and Good Hope. All in all it's a realy good suport class. And if your house of worship hapens to be the alehouse all the better.
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Continuing a performance is a free action so once you start singing you can do other exciting stuff while still getting the effects. Assuming you have enough rounds per day, of course.As a flashy swashbuckler type, I'd seriously consider going down the Combat Expertise/Trip and Disarm route. Especially with a whip. Nothing annoys charging foes than having someone trip them up from 15 ft away and let the melee specialists pound away. Granted, this will require four feats to be effective (or five if you want to get Combat Reflexes and trip people as they come in to fight you and your allies with your whip), but it fits the theme.
I rolled up a bard last week for a friend's Legacy of Fire game that will start up late this fall after I finish the Second Darkness game that I'm running.
My stats are as follows: Str 8 Dex 15, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 13, Cha 14 (20 point buy)
Now I know that after reading that, most of you that have posted above have now seen that I have chosen to take a Str of 8 on a 20 point buy and think I'm a noob, or mentally challenged.
This could be farther from the truth. As starting feats, I've taken weapon finesse, and agile maneuvers. This gets around my low strength and allows me to use my whip effectively in combat. With a starting CMB of +2 (+4 while disarming), I won't be successfully tripping every round, but I will get someone to fall flat on their face every other round or so. With a 15' reach I can stay out of combat, drop spells to my liking and adequately support the party. The most important thing to consider is that this character receives 11 skill ranks per level. Odds are this is more than the party rogue (that is if they dump all their stat options into Dex and Str, like lots of rogues do). By 6th level my Int will have been bumped up to 18 via a stat increase at 4th level and I'll be taking my first level of Pathfinder Chronicler. Now my skill ranks gained per level will skyrocket to a whopping 14 ranks per level. Useless you say? You can't bash skulls and take names with skill ranks you say?
You must consider that the RPG games I play in consist of more than round after round of crunchy combat. We do this roleplaying thing where you pick a detailed persona and then act out their lives as if they were real people. This concept is not new and it's very enjoyable and rewarding. More so, I'd say than rolling yet another 20 and dealing another 30 damage round after round, but ymmv. In fact, if this character goes through his entire adventuring career and never personally deals a single point of damage, that's ok with me. You know why? Because if someone needs fast talked, I've got it in a major way. Need that device disabled? Yeah I got it. Don't speak the language, I'm fluent in 10 different dialects. Not to mention those cryptic inscriptions in dead languages that no one has spoken in a thousand years. Yeah I can read that too.
Combat is far less ugly by level 6 too. By then I will have acquired combat expertise, improved trip, and my BAB will have increased to +4. Putting my CMB up to +6 (+8 while tripping or disarming with a whip) By then I will be overshadowed by both the melee fighters and the main spell casters, but that's ok. I'll be making them better and getting them out of jams that their paltry 2 skill ranks per level can't deal with. Honestly it's all about which part of the game you want to dominate.
Now, I'm sure I've gone on long enough, so I'll let all of you get back to exclaiming about how the worst damage dealing class in 3.5 is still the worst damage dealing class in PRPG. But again, I'm ok with that.
Oh and as a note on feats listed by the previous poster. Whips have a 15' reach, but from what I've read they do not threaten that area because it is actually treated as a ranged weapon and provokes AOO when used....
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How about using bard to qualify for dragon disciple? At higher levels, you can fly, breathe fire, have two claw attacks, can turn iont a dragon, and do all this while using your bardic music to boost not only your attack rolls, but you allies aas well.
Did I mention you get to turns into a dragon? You also gain a few bonus spells from the Blood of Dragons ability.
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As a flashy swashbuckler type, I'd seriously consider going down the Combat Expertise/Trip and Disarm route. Especially with a whip. Nothing annoys charging foes than having someone trip them up from 15 ft away and let the melee specialists pound away. Granted, this will require four feats to be effective (or five if you want to get Combat Reflexes and trip people as they come in to fight you and your allies with your whip), but it fits the theme.
Except that has never been do-able with a whip at least not without a houserule.
The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-
foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which
you can make an attack.
You don't threaten any squares with a whip, which means, no AoOs. This is lame and I always houserule it away, but regardless, the whip is unable to stop charging foes, and makes taking the feat combat reflexes completely useless. I only wish I had known that during the design focus (I didn't learn it till after the final rules were off to the printer) so I could have raised the issue.
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I'm going to be a player in a Council of Thieves campaign and I have a character concept in mind for a bard I'd like to play. However, I am a bit hesitant to commit to this class, as I am not sure that the bard can really ever be more than a support character, especially in group with more than four players that fill the standard character roles.
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Edit: We will be using the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook only, augmented with selected options from other Pathfinder books like, for example, the Campaign Setting. No Wizards splat books.
I hear you... i let others to try to convince you, hey they could have already convinced you...
but I feel your loss... but you have to understand one thing... PF plays with the idea of niches... there is some versatility in theirs contrary to 4E where you are msotly writen in stone your part in the game...
but yes... I don't see a bard being more than support... that is the role they determined... Sirano would be mad...
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As a flashy swashbuckler type, I'd seriously consider going down the Combat Expertise/Trip and Disarm route. Especially with a whip. Nothing annoys charging foes than having someone trip them up from 15 ft away and let the melee specialists pound away. Granted, this will require four feats to be effective (or five if you want to get Combat Reflexes and trip people as they come in to fight you and your allies with your whip), but it fits the theme.Except that has never been do-able with a whip at least not without a houserule.
You don't threaten any squares with a whip, which means, no AoOs. This is lame and I always houserule it away, but regardless, the whip is unable to stop charging foes, and makes taking the feat combat reflexes completely useless. I only wish I had known that during the design focus (I didn't learn it till after the final rules were off to the printer) so I could have raised the issue.The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-
foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which
you can make an attack.
Readied actions are your friend here as they can be used to interrupt a charge. I was unaware of that rule as no one in my game uses the whip (or plays a bard for that matter).
Honestly, this thread confuses me. How is it that people genuinely believe all a Bard can do in combat is use Bardic performance? The Bard is a 3/4 BAB and 3/4 Caster class with decent weapon choices and a decent spell list.
Bardic Music has always been sustained as a free action, you have always been able to be an effective physical combatant and maintain your Inspire Courage. Pathfinder has made this even better by accelerating the progression of Inspire Courage and allowing Bards to cast while maintaining a performance.
The only decision you need to make is whether you want your Bard to focus more on physical attacks or spell casting - either path is a viable option. A physical bard will focus on stats like Strength or Dexterity and will take combat feats while a casting Bard will focus on Charisma and take spell focus feats.
I am personally planning to play a Bard in my upcoming campaign that will focus on archery. Inspire Courage provides enough of a bonus that my chance to hit will equal that of an uninspired full BAB class while also providing a decent bonus to damage. Arcane Strike is built for Bards and it gives me a damage bonus that no full BAB class can garner. Archery got even better in Pathfinder making a dex based build a viable combat option - the changes to Manyshot and the addition of Deadly Aim are great boons for the archer. And, unlike full BAB counterparts I can take a round off to toss out a battlefield control spell to help ensure enemies don't close to melee or a dispel magic to get rid of any archery prevention spells/wards.
For a pure Pathfinder game:
Human: Point Blank Shot
1) Precise Shot
3) Rapid Shot
5) Arcane Strike
7) Deadly Aim
9) Manyshot
Versatile Performance (Ex): At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.
The types of Perform and their associated skills are: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).
So as a reward for taking a skill you needed anyway you can use your performance as a substitute for 2 other skills that you will never have to put a point into. By level 14 you can have 4 different perform skills applying to 8 unrelated skills.
I have a real problem with Versatile at the higher levels. I mean, really, in 3.5 how many bards took 4 perform skills at peak level? Two, yes, absolutely, especially with the new emphasis on visual and audio, but a bard is going to need the use of those other 28 skill points - he can't afford to bank them in the hopes of being awesome at 14th.
There's another problem too: it's very unlikely that you will gain 8 unrelated skills. Looking at the list, Bluff and Diplomacy crop up four times each in a nine item list. It's gonna be hard to dodge overlap. (And remember: there's no such thing as a van in a D&D world. Better not dump stat Str or the harpsicord stays at home.)
This may get solved later with the development of new performs (I'm trying to develop stage magic, but I can't figure out what to call it!) but in the meantime? I wish I had the option to substitute bonus feats...
My wife put together a bard build that was a lot of fun. Her primary weapon was a whip. She took Improved Trip as one of her feats. Yeah, she was still playing a support character, but at least it gave her an opportunity to do something other than continue singing each round.
A friend of mine played a half-orc barbarian bard. We joked that all of his bardic songs were death metal. As a fighter, he was pretty darn effective.
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My wife put together a bard build that was a lot of fun. Her primary weapon was a whip. She took Improved Trip as one of her feats. Yeah, she was still playing a support character, but at least it gave her an opportunity to do something other than continue singing each round.
A friend of mine played a half-orc barbarian bard. We joked that all of his bardic songs were death metal. As a fighter, he was pretty darn effective.
I played with a guy that made a half orc barbarian that took Perform(stomp). :)
With the new archery feats, that might make a really good path for a bard. Especially in a large party with lots of meleers, you'll be able to provide ranged support and buff their attacks and damage from a distance.