Dreamscarred Press wants YOU to develop Psionics for Pathfinder RPG


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We are working on a set of updated Psionics rules and in the spirit of the Open Playtest Paizo did for Pathfinder we are starting with asking YOU the fans - what would YOU want?

Our intention is to update the Psionics rules with errata and changes to balance some of the powers out, following in the footsteps of Pathfinders "less Save-or-Die" and more "major damage on a failed save" revisions. Each of the 4 "core psionic" classes get an update (partially based on our Untapped Potential updates) and we streamline feats and other items.

What remains the same? Power points, augmentations, items.

So, once again - what would YOU want to see updated, changed, revised or altered and WHY?

Feel free to drop by at Dreamscarred Press - The Definitive Source for d20 Psionics › All Types › All Topics and leave an opinion too!

Full post here.


joela wrote:

We are working on a set of updated Psionics rules and in the spirit of the Open Playtest Paizo did for Pathfinder we are starting with asking YOU the fans - what would YOU want?

Our intention is to update the Psionics rules with errata and changes to balance some of the powers out, following in the footsteps of Pathfinders "less Save-or-Die" and more "major damage on a failed save" revisions. Each of the 4 "core psionic" classes get an update (partially based on our Untapped Potential updates) and we streamline feats and other items.

What remains the same? Power points, augmentations, items.

So, once again - what would YOU want to see updated, changed, revised or altered and WHY?

Feel free to drop by at Dreamscarred Press - The Definitive Source for d20 Psionics › All Types › All Topics and leave an opinion too!

Full post here.

Wow, I only had time to give my kids breakfast and then I swung over here to post this very thing and it's already up! Indeed, we are working on a Psionic Player's Handbook for Pathfinder and we want YOUR opinions.

Paraphrasing myself - what should change, be revised, updated or altered? Tell US what YOU think.

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Stormhierta wrote:


Wow, I only had time to give my kids breakfast and then I swung over here to post this very thing and it's already up! Indeed, we are working on a Psionic Player's Handbook for Pathfinder and we want YOUR opinions.

Paraphrasing myself - what should change, be revised, updated or altered? Tell US what YOU think.

It's been literally decades since I used/saw psionics used in a D&D game (1st edition). I'll have to review the SRD. What I've read from the forums, though, is that 3.x psionics resembles a spell-point magic system. Does Dreamscarred offer an alternative system? (BTW, LUV the Third Dawn Campaign setting!)

The Exchange

It is essentially a spell point system but when compared to the Vancian spellcasting it has a distinct flavour that is appropriate for psionics (IMHO)and actually very well balanced. Dreamscarred's Untapped Potential doesn't make any dramatic changes to the system but does give some modifications to the psion and wilder class that are worthwhile. So I would certainly bring those changes into a new version.

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Andreas, you may want to browse the following Paizo forum post for possible ideas:

What Does Psionics Mean to You?

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

You might have to wait a bit before you start hearing from people who have extensively used psionics and have strong opinions about what would make it better. I think that a lot of the "old school" gamers are the ones drawn to the Pathfinder community (edit: or not. Looks like there's already a 14-page thread).

I've never run psionics so I can't really say anything about the balance, but one thing I really like about it is how it lacks almost all of the restrictions of magic. It's refreshingly easy to build a wilder/ranger and have a warrior in armor with mystical powers that are actually worth using. I think that psionics should continue to feel a lot "freer" and less obtuse than magic.

The psionic warrior also struck me as a little bland in execution, which is unfortunate, because there is such a rich and varied range of archetypes one could draw on for a "warrior of the mind".
I especially dislike that he is essentially restricted to powers that a powergamer would choose anyway (i.e. powers that are good for a melee character), without access to iconic "psychic powers" like far hand or empathy.


So will paizo be doing or not doing psionics, if they are too, it leavs them open to use a very different system, and people can then use whichever they want, and its so rarely going to feature in the AP that I'm sure conversion would be okay. I'm very interested in this one though, will it be a .pdf?

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vagrant-poet wrote:
...and its so rarely going to feature in the AP....

Adventure Path? An AP based on psionics? Now that would interest me.


Psionics were always an issue since First edition. They have always been unbalanced. In second edition a third level Psionicist could kill a red great wyrm with the disintergrate power...In third edition the Psion was still unbalanced and far superior to arcane magic or divine magic. I like psionics and all but please put in on equal level with the other powers in the game


joela wrote:
vagrant-poet wrote:
...and its so rarely going to feature in the AP....
Adventure Path? An AP based on psionics? Now that would interest me.

That would be very intresting, however I heard that paizo were going to do Psionics in the future, did I hear wrong?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I, for one, believe that the 3.5 psionics (note, not the 3.0 psionics which were utterly borked) were one of the best elements of the system and hope for many Dreamscarred goodies in the future.

And while at it, you guys can fix the vanilla Soulknife, as he was a real stinker. :)


Frostflame wrote:
Psionics were always an issue since First edition. They have always been unbalanced. In second edition a third level Psionicist could kill a red great wyrm with the disintergrate power...In third edition the Psion was still unbalanced and far superior to arcane magic or divine magic. I like psionics and all but please put in on equal level with the other powers in the game

No. Sorry but no. 2nd edition psionics could be problematic PURELY because of the wild talent system where yes a first level character could get some crazy powerful ability.

3rd edition and even moreso 3.5 psionics (XPH) is, yes, a powerful and versatile "magic" system but having played it EXTENSIVELY (2 1/2 year long Dark Sun campaign) and seen it pitted against even level wizards it's pretty decently balanced. The only place that psions in XPH really shine, ironically, is in sheer blasting because the elemental powers are so dang versatile. Nearly everyone that I know that has DMed 3.5 psionics has houseruled away that problem so I suppose that would be my first suggestion.

Another suggestion for PF psionics, or whatever further may come of psionics in its current form, I would do away with the soulknife and have it be a PrC or a feat tree. I would give psy warriors some of the fighters new toys (armor efficiency, etc.) I know I'll probably get jeers for this one but I actually like a psionic combat system and was saddened to see what happened to it in the XPH. The psionic races are silly with the exception of half giant and duergar. Thri-kreen rule too, but they're very setting specific ya know?

I have some specific prestige classes that I've made for my campaign I'd love to see used :P but I doubt that will happen. I'd like to see a PrC based on mental combat: The Mindshredder.


We at LPJ Design are huge fans of what Dreamscarred have done in the way of psionics and we would be willing to support them any way we could on this project (like doing a crossover project hint, hint. I would suggest a cross over product with our soon to be updated for PFRPG edition of Secrets of NeoExodus: Section Omega. Think of them of Psi Corps in Babylon 5 and you get where we are going with them). Just let us know if you need anything!


Stormhierta wrote:
joela wrote:

We are working on a set of updated Psionics rules and in the spirit of the Open Playtest Paizo did for Pathfinder we are starting with asking YOU the fans - what would YOU want?

Our intention is to update the Psionics rules with errata and changes to balance some of the powers out, following in the footsteps of Pathfinders "less Save-or-Die" and more "major damage on a failed save" revisions. Each of the 4 "core psionic" classes get an update (partially based on our Untapped Potential updates) and we streamline feats and other items.

What remains the same? Power points, augmentations, items.

So, once again - what would YOU want to see updated, changed, revised or altered and WHY?

Feel free to drop by at Dreamscarred Press - The Definitive Source for d20 Psionics › All Types › All Topics and leave an opinion too!

Full post here.

Wow, I only had time to give my kids breakfast and then I swung over here to post this very thing and it's already up! Indeed, we are working on a Psionic Player's Handbook for Pathfinder and we want YOUR opinions.

Paraphrasing myself - what should change, be revised, updated or altered? Tell US what YOU think.

I personally would really like to see psionics take a bit of a twist for the strange. It would be really cool to see Psionic characters who have more in common with King Mob, Ragged Robin and Lord Fanny, than with Conan.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

cpt_machine wrote:
joela wrote:
vagrant-poet wrote:
...and its so rarely going to feature in the AP....
Adventure Path? An AP based on psionics? Now that would interest me.
That would be very intresting, however I heard that paizo were going to do Psionics in the future, did I hear wrong?

It's my understanding that they were/are in talks with Dreamscarred to do the PFXPH. Which sounds good, it would take some of the weight off of Paizo's back to fix mechanics *glares at psi-crystal replacement rules* clarify some rules (Yes, Virginia, psicrystals get feats) and tweak some races (Maybe half-giants, Personally I think they're fine as is in PFRPG). Once the PFXPH is out, then Paizo can write up the green planet and explain psionic races (for me, the first Elans were Azlanti who escaped to the green world, but my Azlanti are also mixed with Radiance House's Atlan, so take it with a grain of salt).

As to what should be in it? On one page, in red 72 point font: The Metacap.

If psionics are unbalanced, you're doing it wrong.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

meatrace wrote:
I would do away with the soulknife and have it be a PrC or a feat tree.

The Soulknife is a fairly popular base class and features prominently into the Eberron setting. It would be poor revision to remove it.

It could use a lot of redesign, though. The "weapon enhancement" class features need to be flushed I feel, as they just result in soulknives with more wealth to spend on other things, and I don't feel that "can afford a shinier suit of armor and shield" is very true to the concept. Just let them enhance their mindblades as if they were physical weapons.


cpt_machine wrote:
joela wrote:
vagrant-poet wrote:
...and its so rarely going to feature in the AP....
Adventure Path? An AP based on psionics? Now that would interest me.
That would be very intresting, however I heard that paizo were going to do Psionics in the future, did I hear wrong?

I was at the Paizo Chat last night.. and I asked James because they have scheduled in 2010..

1.) GameMastery Book
2.) Bestiary 2
3.) Advanced Players Handbook

..all of those three 3 rule books in 2010... would we see Psionics from Paizo in 2011?

He said not very likely. Mind you, as he often reminds me, that is always subject to change.

But I walked away from that with the understanding that there was likely to be no psionics in 2010 or 2011.

Seems like there is a niche there to be filled with anybody with the ambition and desire to fill it.


Sweet freakin hells yes!

I love Dreamscarred Press and Untapped Potential. You guys actually love the wonderfully balanced XPH and show it in everything you do.

Here's a couple of things that I'd say a Pathfinderized Psionics needs:
1) A "Cantrips" style ability, wherein psions and wilders (and maybe PsiWars) get unlimited manifestations per day.
Suggestion: There are several level 1 powers that really shouldn't be (I'm looking at you, Detect Psionics), so downgrade those to some sort of thing, maybe call it "talents." To differentiate between disciplines let every psion manifest all the talents at will for no cost except giving up their psionic focus. Unless it's a talent from their discipline, in which case they don't even need to use their focus. This allows them to have a nice selection of abilities, but further emphasizes the discipline the psion has. Not sure how to do it with Wilders and PsiWars, but that'd be the way I'd go.
2) Bring some additional parity to the psionic powers (without ruining their flexibility). Psionic Dominate is terrible compared to standard Dominate Person (unless you use Hyperconscious), so get it up to the level where you're not shutting yourself down to get control of an enemy. Wizards don't have to, so psions certainly shouldn't.
3) Create some sort of illusion-y psionic powers. It just seems odd to me that psions can't trick people into thinking they're seeing/feeling/smelling/tasting/hearing something they're not.
4) Let me do some art. D&D Portfolio
5) Make sure you keep it the way it is. One of the most disappointing things about the "What does Psionics mean to you?" thread was the general feeling I got that the Paizo guys had it out for the XPH and wanted to replace it with another Vancian system. What I love about the XPH is the points system, the flavor, and how it isn't exactly the same as playing a wizard.
6) Update the Marksman and Society Mind for it, too. I love those classes very, very much, especially the Society Mind.
7) Perhaps figure out some guidelines for what to do with a psionic in games where you don't have the expected 4 encounters per day. That's what trips up so many people on how they work, and it's the part that designers of adventures so often ignore as a conceit of the game.

Thanks the bright ray of light here. I was worried about having to try and figure out a PFRPG Psionics update myself, since I was getting pretty antsy about how Paizo would approach it based on their own posts. Psionics isn't broken, so long as you know how the system is supposed to work.


Watcher wrote:
cpt_machine wrote:
joela wrote:
vagrant-poet wrote:
...and its so rarely going to feature in the AP....
Adventure Path? An AP based on psionics? Now that would interest me.
That would be very intresting, however I heard that paizo were going to do Psionics in the future, did I hear wrong?

I was at the Paizo Chat last night.. and I asked James because they have scheduled in 2010..

1.) GameMastery Book
2.) Bestiary 2
3.) Advanced Players Handbook

..all of those three 3 rule books in 2010... would we see Psionics from Paizo in 2011?

He said not very likely. Mind you, as he often reminds me, that is always subject to change.

But I walked away from that with the understanding that there was likely to be no psionics in 2010 or 2011.

Seems like there is a niche there to be filled with anybody with the ambition and desire to fill it.

Well at least he's honest and your right no point rushing out a product when with the open gaming licence someone else can do it justice.


What did everyone think of Green Ronin's Psychics?

Dreamscarred Press

For the record, we had approached Paizo about doing this, but the discussions stalled out.

We've internally planned to do something like this for a while, with or without official sanction, since the OGL and PF licensing allow it. Obviously, we'd have preferred to do it in an official capacity, but we're passionate about psionics, so we'd probably do it either way. :)


Quote:
So will paizo be doing or not doing psionics, if they are too, it leavs them open to use a very different system, and people can then use whichever they want, and its so rarely going to feature in the AP that I'm sure conversion would be okay. I'm very interested in this one though, will it be a .pdf?

As posters suggest, we haven't heard anything from Paizo about Psionics and it sure doesn't seem like it before 2011.

We will release a PDF for it and also put it into Print-on-Demand, possibly looking into getting distribution for it, depending on demand and potential partners.

Quote:
And while at it, you guys can fix the vanilla Soulknife, as he was a real stinker. :)

We already did a smaller update in Untapped Potential and we're most probably going to follow down that path. However, just as with psionics in general, we will pick up on the ability to theme your psionics. So the Soulknife will have a few example variants (thematic ones, not mechanic ones) that should help make it less vanilla.

Quote:

Another suggestion for PF psionics, or whatever further may come of psionics in its current form, I would do away with the soulknife and have it be a PrC or a feat tree. I would give psy warriors some of the fighters new toys (armor efficiency, etc.) I know I'll probably get jeers for this one but I actually like a psionic combat system and was saddened to see what happened to it in the XPH. The psionic races are silly with the exception of half giant and duergar. Thri-kreen rule too, but they're very setting specific ya know?

I have some specific prestige classes that I've made for my campaign I'd love to see used :P but I doubt that will happen. I'd like to see a PrC based on mental combat: The Mindshredder.

We do have an alternate variant on the Soulknife already, called the Mindblade Feats which does exactly what you are proposing. We will update this product for an "alternate Psionics rules" release further down the line.

We will definately look at making the Psychic Warrior a little more interesting than the "vanilla" variant we have now. The mindscape combat system is Product Identity from Monte Cook's Hyperconscious release, and if we do release a product with his blessings, it will be at a later stage.

We will naturally do races, including those from our Third Dawn campaign setting which are unique (such as Ophiduans and Chimairans) together with the Dreamscarred, and throw in a good helping of Xeph, Elan, Maenad, Half-Giant, Dromite and Duergar into that mix. :)

Regarding specific requests, Dreamscarred Press will open up the "Custom Design" we did earlier at a later stage again where you can get stuff custom designed by us.

Disciple of Sakura wrote:

Sweet freakin hells yes!

I love Dreamscarred Press and Untapped Potential. You guys actually love the wonderfully balanced XPH and show it in everything you do.

*blushes* Well thankyou. We are passionate about what we write and I think it shows, but it is always awesome to read stuff like this! :D

Quote:

Here's a couple of things that I'd say a Pathfinderized Psionics needs:

1) A "Cantrips" style ability, wherein psions and wilders (and maybe PsiWars) get unlimited manifestations per day.
Suggestion: There are several level 1 powers that really shouldn't be (I'm looking at you, Detect Psionics), so downgrade those to some sort of thing, maybe call it "talents." To differentiate between disciplines let every psion manifest all the talents at will for no cost except giving up their psionic focus. Unless it's a talent from their discipline, in which case they don't even need to use their focus. This allows them to have a nice selection of abilities, but further emphasizes the discipline the psion has. Not sure how to do it with Wilders and PsiWars, but that'd be the way I'd go.

Absolutely. We are discussing a system where as long as you maintain psionic focus, you can manifest a number of talents, depending on class and focus naturally.

Quote:

2) Bring some additional parity to the psionic powers (without ruining their flexibility). Psionic Dominate is terrible compared to standard Dominate Person (unless you use Hyperconscious), so get it up to the level where you're not shutting yourself down to get control of an enemy. Wizards don't have to, so psions certainly shouldn't.

3) Create some sort of illusion-y psionic powers. It just seems odd to me that psions can't trick people into thinking they're seeing/feeling/smelling/tasting/hearing something they're not.

We will absolutely expand on the "spell-like" powers to make them feel definately psionic. However, adding new powers will be too much for a project this size and a publisher this small. For an expansion though, not at all improbable.

Quote:
4) Let me do some art. D&D Portfolio

Come over to the DSP forums and we can discuss this. :) Honestly.

Quote:

5) Make sure you keep it the way it is. One of the most disappointing things about the "What does Psionics mean to you?" thread was the general feeling I got that the Paizo guys had it out for the XPH and wanted to replace it with another Vancian system. What I love about the XPH is the points system, the flavor, and how it isn't exactly the same as playing a wizard.

7) Perhaps figure out some guidelines for what to do with a psionic in games where you don't have the expected 4 encounters per day. That's what trips up so many people on how they work, and it's the part that designers of adventures so often ignore as a conceit of the game.

No worries, one of the things we aren't changing is how the system works. However, we are probably going to introduce a variant rule system for giving the Psionic classes "power points per encounter" to make them more balanced around different "encounters". For those that are interested that is.

Quote:
6) Update the Marksman and Society Mind for it, too. I love those classes very, very much, especially the Society Mind.

There will be more expansions for Pathfinder Psionics as time passes, don't you worry about that! :D

I look forward to start churning out new PDFs for you guys to peruse and give us the kind of awesome feedback that Paizo fans have become renowned for! :D

Scarab Sages

unnambed wrote:
What did everyone think of Green Ronin's Psychics?

I really like the Psychic's Handbook and the Psychic class. I"m using it in my current CotCT game.

(There are a few typos and one or two things that need clarifications in the book.)


Well I'm encouraged and enthused by the passion that Dreamscarred is demonstrating for this project.

A lot of folks are interested in adventures on the other planets in Golarion's solar system. While that is part of Paizo's IP, actually having a psionic system would allow folks to do their own homebrew stuff on those other worlds, and still incorporate it in Paizo's published campaign for their home games.

Psionically interested folks should go to DP's forums and get involved.


fray wrote:
unnambed wrote:
What did everyone think of Green Ronin's Psychics?

I really like the Psychic's Handbook and the Psychic class. I"m using it in my current CotCT game.

(There are a few typos and one or two things that need clarifications in the book.)

I really like the concept of psychic powers being feat-and-skill based. It reminded me of the early editions, when you could have psionics regardless of which class you were.

Unfortunately, we found that in play the Green Ronin psychic powers (particularly those that did ability damage) were just too powerful and dominated the game.

So I like the concept but not the particulars.


I haven't played psionics much in 3.0 or later, but I have skimmed over the books a little. I plan on playing psionics again soon in Pathfinder, and I am hoping they keep the Gith races and the Githzeri psionic marshal arts style. Other than that the 3.0/3.5 psionics system seems pretty good, but I'm sure you will improve on it.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Nydrre wrote:
Other than that the 3.0/3.5 psionics system seems pretty good, but I'm sure you will improve on it.

Gotta admit, this thread does sound a little like a solution looking for a problem.


Nydrre wrote:
I haven't played psionics much in 3.0 or later, but I have skimmed over the books a little. I plan on playing psionics again soon in Pathfinder, and I am hoping they keep the Gith races and the Githzeri psionic marshal arts style. Other than that the 3.0/3.5 psionics system seems pretty good, but I'm sure you will improve on it.

Unfortunately the Gith-races and thus most things related to them are Product Identity, meaning that they "belong" to Wizards of the Coast and cannot be used in an OGL-product like this without explicit permission from WotC.


Hydro wrote:
Nydrre wrote:
Other than that the 3.0/3.5 psionics system seems pretty good, but I'm sure you will improve on it.
Gotta admit, this thread does sound a little like a solution looking for a problem.

Well, essentially the problem is the same that the core books were suffering from - a loss of printed media. The XPH is impossible to get ahold of at a decent price (last time it was priced at 60$ when I checked Amazon) as are any PDFs of it. True, the SRD exists and works pretty well, but that isn't all there is to gaming. Many people, myself included, like their dead-tree versions and thus our goal is to put this into print. :D

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Well, okay, fair enough.

And I guess if they have to be reprinted anyway, they should at least see a thorough spit-shine.


Feat: Psionic Body needs to be toned down some I think.
Perhaps reduce it to 1 HP per psionic feat know.

Power: Vigor need to have it's HP boost adjusted. perhaps 5 HP +5 HP fer every two points of augmentation.

Between the two above, Psions can really reach insane HP levels. Especially when you factor in the new Toughness feat.

============================

In regards to XP costs for some powers, how will they be handled now that PF has dropped XP as a expendable resource? Perhaps use expensive gem stones as a "focus", brning away their value as the power is channeled through it?


My suggestion would be to develope Psionics along with a campaign setting. In my experience, a lot of people don't like bringing psionics into their games because it doesn't fit with their idea of fantasy. Often times it was tacked on as an extra if some one really wanted to play it, but it usually became another form of magic and had no real impact on the game. If you come up with a good setting that supports psionics, somewhere between Eberron (Light psionics but at least it was there) and Darksun (couldn't escape psionics), it would draw in more interest in psionics.

Another suggestion I'd like to present would be to make psionics similar to magic in FFG's Midnight setting. Keep the power points but have access to powers. Keep Psionic classes but allow other classes to pick up these feats too soo you could have the Fighter who has picked up some biokinesis, a monk with a little psychoportation, or a sorcerer who suppliments her BOOM! with some empathy. Edit: this would be a way to make magic and psionics stand farther apart.

I'd like to see either a monk-like class for Psionics, less martial more exorcist, or make the psions a bit monk-like to make them interesting (they seem dull to me).


I’ve been playing an Elan Psion(5)/PsionicWarrior(2) in the living campaign “Legend of the Shining Jewel” (LSJ) www.TheShiningJewel.com which is going to be getting support from Paizo who is about to publish for $15 the Rules Compendium for this living campaign.

My understanding from the Campaign Coordinator is that Paizo will be publishing psionic rules, but not making much in the way of changes since most of the other classes have been upgraded. However, from reading this thread, it seems that they may be relying upon a second company to do so.

The LSJ living campaign only used the Expanded Psionics Handbook and only Elans can be psionic in the campaign, and are medium experience progression chart.

A few changes/comments I would suggest to address what were common complaints regarding Psions:
Complaint #1: They got the Silent Spell Feat for free since they had a chance of hiding the manifestation of their powers.

Complaint #2: Their power point pool allowed them to cast better and be more flexible than Sorcerers

Complaint #3: They were able to switch nearly ‘at will’ between Fire, Cold, Sonic, and Electricity

Complaint #4: Mind thrust was overpowered at a d10

Complaint #5: Matter Agitation was way too powerful for a first level power, doing 1d4 per round with no saving throw for a full minute at first level.

Complaint #6: Energy Wall, unlike Arcane Walls, allowed for walls to be cast on people and to do continuous damage at range.

Complaint #7: Vigor is broken.

Complaint #1: They got the Silent Spell Feat for free since they had a chance of hiding the manifestation of their powers.
I didn’t have a problem with this, although it might be a nice thing to gain at second or third level instead of having it at first level. It would allow a progression in abilities since at present Psions only receive bonus feats at every 5 levels and have no other benefits that can be gained at each level. Another progression bonus (4th & 6th level) they might get could be a bonus to their concentration when casting defensively since they are such ‘mental’ powers. Allowing a bonus perhaps from the autohypnosis skill at a certain level may help with providing this class with more level progression events.

Complaint #2: Their power point pool allowed them to cast better and be more flexible than Sorcerers
I really didn’t have a problem with this. It makes them different from Sorcerers (who gain new abilities in PFRPG) and Wizards. Both have been brought up some in power.

Complaint #3: They were able to switch nearly ‘at will’ between Fire, Cold, Sonic, and Electricity
This is one of the more valid arguments, as casters have to memorize one specific but the psion switches between them when first manifesting the power. The obvious solution would seem to restrict the choices for the individual, but then no one would pick to specialize in Sonic. Therefore, allow the Psion to take his 4 hour meditation where he infuses his body with psionic energy to change between manifesting the 4 (or 3, excluding Sonic) elements. Furthermore, when he’s attuned to a specific element, allow him a +1 save for that element (Fire/Cold/Electricty) or a +1 bonus to the Save DC for that element. These bonuses could scale with level like wizards do with their specialty schools, levels 8, 12, or 16.
Nevertheless, make the less used Sonic element to always be an alternative that doesn’t require him to ‘refocus’ between fire/cold/electricity. This way he has Fire/Sonic, Cold/Sonic, Electricity/Sonic.

I don’t think it necessary to give a penalty of -1 Damage per Damage Dice (no minimum damage) for casting an elemental energy that he hasn’t prepared his body for. But it could be something that would allow him the flexibility if he REALLY needed it.

Complaint #4: Mind thrust was overpowered at a D10
I disagree as it both requires a Will save AND can’t work on many creatures. Compare this to the touch attack and D6 damage some of the other ray powers have. It is often a completely useless specialist power that takes up a one of the limited powers the character can have. Having Overchannel/Talented may allow a 5th level Psion to do 6D10 but the save for a 18 Int Character is DC 17 against a creature that probably has a will save of +5-+11. Meaning that there is a good chance he blows tons of power points to no effect. Over two turns he’ll probably do 6D10, but could get lucky, or unlucky.

Complaint #5: Matter Agitation was way too powerful for a first level power, doing 1d4 per round with no saving throw for a full minute at first level.
Sonic damage bypasses hardness, Matter Agitation should bypass it as well, but as a first level spell it was like casting a magic missile every round while concentrating, and for 1 minute/level. Instead, Matter Agitation should be on inorganic material, or ‘dry’ material. Alternatively, it could be like microwaves, heating only the water, and therefore be useless on things that have no water content.
Alternatively Matter Agitation could be ‘pain’ based power like the second level “Inflict Pain”, but as a first level spell it should require concentration, and force the recipient to keep making saving throws. It might be interesting if the recipient kept making saving throws (with a bonus) and got a minus -2 to attack, skill, and ability rolls, UNTIL he fails, and then is at -4 until the power is over. This give the caster reason to continue to apply the concentration even thought the target may get an inherent +2 or +3 bonus to his will save. IMHO, simply add the Constitution bonus to the save the target makes, since it is about heating up the water in the body.

As an added bonus to this power, allow the manifester to start a small fire on an immobile inanimate object (even if the wood/fuel is wet) if he takes 5 continuous rounds of concentration.

This power should simply be a weaker version of the second level spell Inflict Pain and require concentration. As another added bonus, any psion who takes Inflict pain should automatically lose this this power and be able to replace it with a new 1st level power. Think of it as 'morphing' this power into a second level power instead of 'gaining' the Inflict Pain power.

Complaint #6: Energy Wall, unlike Arcane Walls, allowed for walls to be cast on people and to do continuous damage at range.
I’ve started using Energy Wall and find it VERY powerful. Especially in combination with energy push as I can blast someone back through the wall, and then they have to come back through it and get me.

I cast the wall around the opponent facing ‘outwards’ so I split his party and he chooses not to move. Then I place a second ring inside, facing inwards, and now he’s trapped and has to run through TWO 2d6+L after having taken 2d6 damage if failing the save. Furthermore, if he isn’t careful, I can blow him back through the wall or into the damage zone with energy push. This power allows me to control the battlefield. Of course Energy Burst does 5D6 to everyone within 40 feet, and damages my own party as well. I can’t see why someone wouldn’t take the only significant ‘area effect’ spell that can be manipulated in such a way as to not damage your own party at the start of combat.

I’m not sure I would eliminate this power, since it have it’s damage dice enhanced, but I might tweak it by changing the duration from Concentration + 5 rounds to Concentration + Int Bonus rounds. Often this will be the same thing, but not always, especially if the caster hast taken ability damage.

Complaint #7: Vigor is broken.
I don’t call it Vigor, I call it ‘Ablative Hit Points’ since you get 5HP for every power point you spend. At 6 level, opponents can do 42 points of damage to me for 3 rounds and I’m probably still standing as a 6th level character. Sure, 5 is the ‘average’ of a CLW, but I think this power should be slightly nerfed and there are a couple of ways of doing it.

1. Make it 4HP per power point, this is twice what Elans can do naturally as an immediate action.
2. Limit it to a max of your constitution score + 1 HP/level, so a third level psion with a 12 Con would have no more 12+3, but a 14 Con psion would be in the same boat. A 10 Con psion would have 12+3 reduced to 10+3. It is two less than what Vigor gives now
3. Make it 3HP per power point + 1 per power point spent. At 5th level, it is 15+5 (20HP instead of 25) At 8th level, it is 24 + 8 = 32 instead of 40.
4. Make it 2HP per power point + 1/point. At 5th level this is 10+5, or 15 instead of 25.
5. Make it 2HP per power point + 1/point. + con bonus, At 5th level this is 10+5 + Con bonus, or 15 + Con bonus instead of 25.

Better yet, just make a power called “Ablation” that is 5 ablative HP where every time you take more than 4 damage, one of the points of damage does not come from the ablative hit points. This represents a certain degree of leakage. Or for every 4 points of damage you take (round down) one of those points comes from you base hit points. Having 10 points of ablation at 2nd level and taking 7 damage means that 1 comes from your base HP, while taking 8 damage means that 2 HP comes from your base HP.

NEW TOPIC: Psionic Warriors.
What Psionic Warrior isn’t going to take Force Screen as his first power? Or Vigor as his second.
Psionic Warrior only have one spell at first level. The solution to this is to give them a List A and a List B. List A has all the melee ‘fighting’ powers, and List B has some ‘Flavor’ powers, including mind thrust.
Furthermore, why not just give the psionic warrior Force Screen at fist level and then let them have TWO more powers at second level since no first level melee character is going to forgo having a +4 shield they can use with a two handed weapon. And if this is the case, make the shield bonus equal to the primary ability score (wisdom). It’s a (almost) free tower shield spell anyway, so let the lower wisdom Psionic Warriors get it for free and have it tied to their caster ability score. Psions NEED the +4 shield bonus since they can’t have armor, but make it power that costs. Let the Psionic warrior manifest Force Screen for free equal to his 1+ his Wisdom bonus just like a Wizard might get Hand of The Apprentice a few times per day. Let the shield last 10 minutes, and let it cause fatigue afterwards for an hour (or none if passing a Fortitude save).

Or instead of Force Screen at first level, they could take manifest Call (ectoplasmic) Weapon as an immediate action instead of a standard action. . (We wouldn’t recommend the latter as this is already called SoulKnife)

However, if this Call (ectoplasmic) Weapon were a reach weapon this would allow them to immediately have an AoO if they have Combat Reflexes and someone charges them while they are still flat footed.

This way Psionic Warriors can be of two types just like Psions have several classes; it can be two paths - shield path or weapons path.

On the weapons path, the Psionic Warrior is more like a Soulknife, and can never be ‘unarmed’, while the shield path can still pay 1 point for the Force Screen power once his daily allotment of Free Force Screens are exhausted. The weapon path would not allow for Force Screen until 2nd level, while the Shield path has no other powers at 1st level as the player should be able to pick two new powers at second level.

Psion
L1 Bonus Feat
L2 Chance to hide Manifestation display once per day
L3 Chance to hide Manifestation display
L4 Bonus 1st level power
L5 Bonus Feat
L6 Bonus 1st level power
L7 Gain 2nd (Daily) Elemental Energy Manifestation Specialization
L8 Bonus 2nd level power
L9
L10 Bonus feat


I loved the green-ronin power-and-skill version of psi (for those who never saw it, you had a base feat, say "telepathy" and you then learned skills (say, "suggestion" "telepathic illusion" "mind-reading") - the higher your skill in the power, the more you could do with it. their Psychic base class got a bonus feat every X levels, to be used on their psi-feats, and a lot of skill points - with the proviso that many of them had to be used on psi skills. also, powers, rather than costing spell-points, or whatever, cost "strain" which was non-leathal damage - in essence, using them was tiering

I loved the flexibility and the way that, in essence, it was much more about using a limited range of abilities WELL and flexibly, rather than having lots of abilities. for a damage-dealer it was a lot weaker than a core psion, but it made great telepaths/precogs and the like.

one way to being "traditional" psi and the GR system together would be to, in essence, only have 1st level powers, and make a big deal of augments, possibly with some skill/feat/whatever that "opened up" what exactly you could do with your powers, with some augments only being available if you meet this prereq. still using power points for now (however, i can see a more simple option)

when you look at it, there is actually a fairly small number of "core" powers, with most others being variations thereof.

Example (done stream-of-thought

look at the energy-blast powers. now, you would have a single "power" of, say "Elemental Attack" which does 1d6 elemental damage of a type chosen when you select the power (i always thought the any energy was too flexible as is), to a single target, as a ranged touch attack, at medium range.

the "available to all" augments would be, say +1d6 damage for one point, upgrade to long range for +3 points, add +1d6 damage on the following round for +1 point, change the energy type for 1point (so, a pyrokinetic could to a cryokinetic or electrokinetic attack for a slightly higer cost)

then, you have some way to "unlock" other upgrades. lets say a skill, and the number of ranks gives the following options

3 ranks - +2 points, make the attack "homeing" (a-la magic missile)
4 ranks - +2 points make it an energy aura (see power of same name)
5 ranks - +4 points add a 10' burst effect

and so on

each "traditional" power would have a fairly limited range of base powers, so, for example

Psychometabilism
may have as it's base powers (amongst others)

Healing Touch
Body Augmentation
Face-change
Harming Touch
Enlarge

each of which has lots of augments

a "core" psion would probably have a fairly small number of base powers (say, start with 1 base ability from their own discipline, and one other. gain one ability from their own discipline every X levels, and one from any at all every Y levels), plus a small package of abilities similar to a wizards specialist school. a wilder-like would probably have less powers, but have more options for upgrading them - in essence, be your tradional one-trick-wonder. of course, this is all being written as it comes to me, and i'm not number-crunching, but it's worth considering. You do enough skill points to have 2 or 3 base abilities "maxed out", with a msaller number at lower levels


Good thoughts Skaorn. Selling Psionics in fantasy really depends on solid well written example. I would hesitate to call 3.5 Eberron psionics lite. Getting into the extra material for the setting epically the Secrets of Sarlona book, you can see one of best examples of psionics being well integrated into a fantasy setting. What you really do need is Lite, with the hooks to go deeper.

I agree Dark Sun was "in your personal space" psionics and is not a good way to sell them in a fantasy world to non-psionic DMs and players.

My main recommendations are to make as few changes as possible. At least my group thought 3.5 Psionics actually worked, very well in fact, unlike earlier psionics rules. They were easy to integrate (except for 'magical' gear). With the changes in the PF core classes some of the issues surrounding Psionics will be reduced in volume a bit. Compare a Specialist Wizard or even Sorcerer to the base 3.5 Psion. I would be hard pressed to say the Psion is overpower compared to 'traditional' Arcane Casters at this point.

Clean up the powers for some the more obvious abuses that have been brought up over the... almost 6 years the rules have been in play.

I'd almost say to actually slightly under power the Psionc classes, mathematically, compared to PF Core classes. One of the almost never ending fights with non-psionic DMs/Players was the claim (mostly false) that Psionics was overpowered. Setting out initially to be a sliver less then the Core classes would help defuse that argument. Taking the PF Wizard as an example, if it was the Pathfinderized Psion, I'd pull the free cantrips. Very minor power loss, but a noticeable one. In non-psionic games with an added psionic character DMs often feel the need to adapt to the different way Psions use powers, again contributing to a feeling of them being 'broken' in context. By under powering just a tad the relative changes a DM will feel obliged to make will be smaller.

The other BIG issue to me when dealing with Pathfinderizing Psionics is dealing with Concentration checks. Right now they are based on the Caster Level + Caster stat. This is alright in Core because only casters really ever needed to make Concentration check. In Psionics everyone does, even non-psionic classed characters.

My own house rule at this point was that Wild Talent (feat) gives characters a Concentration Check equal to 1/2 Total Character level or HD plus Constitution Mod. This would put non-psionic classes just a little behind 3.5 cross-classed concentration skill, with the advantage of not having to spend skill points on it during their carrier.


Frostflame wrote:
Psionics were always an issue since First edition. They have always been unbalanced. In second edition a third level Psionicist could kill a red great wyrm with the disintergrate power...In third edition the Psion was still unbalanced and far superior to arcane magic or divine magic. I like psionics and all but please put in on equal level with the other powers in the game

I would guess that you haven't played with psionics in 3.5 to any great degree. Or, if you have, you overlooked the rule that the number of power points you can spend is limited by your manifester level.

I see this same complaint over and over across the 'net, and it's practically always from someone that hasn't really given 3.5 psionics a shot. I know; I used to say the same thing until I allowed a wilder into one of my campaigns and she played from about 3rd up to about 13th level. That character was very much on par with the other members of the party power-wise all the way along the line, and felt very different from the other casters.

Same thing happened to me with country music. I used to mock it before I really knew it, but spent a little time with an open mind listening to it, and now I'm a fan.


Frostflame wrote:
Psionics were always an issue since First edition. They have always been unbalanced. In second edition a third level Psionicist could kill a red great wyrm with the disintergrate power...In third edition the Psion was still unbalanced and far superior to arcane magic or divine magic. I like psionics and all but please put in on equal level with the other powers in the game

1. I dont want to go to Enworld and Paizo to post responses. I would like for one place or the other to be the official response station. Fighting a war on two fronts is not fun. I know this may not be feasible however so I won't harp on it.

2. If Paizo and DSP are both doing Psionics I feel as though they will be very similar so I dont see why DSP can't do the rules for psionics, unless profits will be an issue, which I understand, but if either one of your systems are close to the 3.x system, which DSP's already is, I will purchase the first one out of the gate if it is close enough to 3.X's. Now if the other company has a very different, but nice idea, I have no idea what I will do.

3. Saving the best for last: Psionics were not up to the level of magic users in 3.5. I never played 3.0 so I can't speak on that. I dont want to hi-jack the post so we may need to may another thread for this issue, but then again since this is the psionics thread.......


Frostflame wrote:
Psionics were always an issue since First edition. They have always been unbalanced. In second edition a third level Psionicist could kill a red great wyrm with the disintergrate power...In third edition the Psion was still unbalanced and far superior to arcane magic or divine magic. I like psionics and all but please put in on equal level with the other powers in the game

I have to wonder if you even read the rules for 3.5 psionics. Arcane spells are just plain better than equivalent psionic powers, and because wizard and sorc are core classes, they get a ton more options in every single book produced.

Make no mistake, Arcane and Divine are still the kings, with psion being a nicely flavored "Also ran".


1. Please do this product in the same vein as PFRPG, i.e. a setting neutral "crunch" book. Settings can be fun, but if someone doesn't like the given setting, or is happy with their existing setting choice, its easy to loose them if you tie the rules too closely to a new setting.

2. Try to keep to the "don't subtract, only add" philosophy when fine tuning the psionic classes.

3. A minor "at will" ability like spellcaster's cantrips or orisons might not be a bad idea (although this does kind of step on the psionic focus feats, which only require you take the time to refocus to use again). Finding a balance between those two would be nice.

4. Something that is obviously analogous from arcane and divine should probably be changed in psionics as well. In other words, if there is a psionic power that is very obviously based on a spell that has changed in Pathfinder, then, yes, it should match up with the PF spell now, so that psionics don't feel like the "backdoor" way to work around new rules.

5. Please, please, make sure you stick to the established PF design parameters, i.e. things like HD/BaB synch up. I know sometimes it seems like an exception might be worthwhile, but once you make one exception, its that much easier to say something else should be an exception as well, and then it starts to look like, well, you are just doing what you feel like doing rather than trying to synch up with the core rules.

6. If at all possible, try to reopen talks with Paizo about making this the "default" psionics option. Paizo has some great guys and great designers, but I'm not feeling a lot of psionics love, and I'd rather have the "official" option worked on by guys that have a passion for the rules than someone that feels that they need to convert them just to have the rules in print. No offense to anyone at Paizo.

7. While the rules should be fun and accessible, please resist the temptation to scuttle established aspects of the 3.5 psionics system to try to attract people that already dislike psionics, because, while I respect people's opinions, sometimes someone will never like a concept, no matter what you do with it, and it would be a shame to tank what people do already like for a chance to bring in someone that's not already excited about the system.


Quote Dorje Sylas: "Good thoughts Skaorn. Selling Psionics in fantasy really depends on solid well written example. I would hesitate to call 3.5 Eberron psionics lite. Getting into the extra material for the setting epically the Secrets of Sarlona book, you can see one of best examples of psionics being well integrated into a fantasy setting. What you really do need is Lite, with the hooks to go deeper."

What I mean by lite is the prevelance of magic vs psionics in the world, as magic is used in everything in the setting. While psionics are there and have a place, its overshadowed by magic and Dragonmarks. If you make a setting that has both magic and psionics, but throw in something like Dragonmarks for Psionics so you can dabble in it, have a well thought out system, and probably leave out the lightning rails and such you can probably push psionics really well.

Edit: I would suggest that it be published seperately, that way you can add fun stuff like Warforged, Shifters, etc.


KnightErrantJR wrote:
4. Something that is obviously analogous from arcane and divine should probably be changed in psionics as well. In other words, if there is a psionic power that is very obviously based on a spell that has changed in Pathfinder, then, yes, it should match up with the PF spell now, so that psionics don't feel like the "backdoor" way to work around new rules.

I could use your support over at the Dreamscarred Press Forums K.E. Jr!

Thread is here

There is a gentleperson there who feels Paizo screwed up the magic system in terms of Save Versus Death (or Save versus Suck as it has been popularized) on spells/powers. He'd like Dreamscarred to adhere to 3.5 design principals in the creation of their "Pathfinder Psionics" product. By his admission, he's ripped out the magic system and substituted the old 3.5 magic. That's awesome for his home game, but that shouldn't be a baseline for an accessory to the Core Rules.

He also thinks I'm a mean man. Lol.. That's okay, I probably am some days. (Don't need help with that)

But all joking aside, I'm quite serious about what you've said in the quote above.

Dreamscarred should either embrace Pathfinder design goals (for this specific product), or don't write this book and call it "Pathfinder Psionics". I SHOULD ADD HOWEVER.. These Dreamscarred folks have agreed with us.

But there might be pushback from their established community.


What are people's opinion of the old Psionics as Magic vs the Psionics seperrate from magic? PasM is usually easier to deal with but seems to label it as just another form of magic.


Skaorn wrote:
What are people's opinion of the old Psionics as Magic vs the Psionics seperrate from magic? PasM is usually easier to deal with but seems to label it as just another form of magic.

If they dont like PasM then they dont have to use the transparency rules. I consider Psionics to be its own thing, but if I treat it differently(mechanics wise) it will just cause more of a cluster at the table, and since it would not be affected by magic I think it would warrant an increase in CR's/EL's. I really don't want to deal with the extra work of figuring out new CR's.


Skaorn wrote:
What are people's opinion of the old Psionics as Magic vs the Psionics seperrate from magic? PasM is usually easier to deal with but seems to label it as just another form of magic.

Boy.. that can be a hot button topic around here. There's been a lot of spirited debate.

At first, I thought psionics should not be magic. Then after some careful consideration, I found I didn't care. What did matter was the flavor associated with Psionics compared to say a wizard or a cleric.

I don't want to play a wizard with a funny name.. but a genuinely different class with a different feel. Something that was truly different to roleplay.

As long as that need is met, I find it doesn't really matter to me one way or another.

(I suppose my free association first thought is still that psionics are not magic, but I'm really old and remember 1st edition. It's nothing I would rigorously debate one way or another)


I'm very heartened to see this news, as I don't think Paizo's in any rush to address psionics. Nor do I think their heart's in it.

As for reading through that 14 page thread Erik started about psionics, yeahhhh...I guess you could. I can only read through so many posts by people clearly ignorant of how 3.5 psionics worked w/out reaching for a stiff drink. Depressing. I didn't have the strength to try to stamp out the same old weak arguments over and over...kudos to those of you who stuck through it!

Anyway, keep as close as possible to the 3.5 book, w/ obvious tweaks and errata, and a PFRPG upgrade, and you'll have a great product. Best of luck.


BenS wrote:

I'm very heartened to see this news, as I don't think Paizo's in any rush to address psionics. Nor do I think their heart's in it.

As for reading through that 14 page thread Erik started about psionics, yeahhhh...I guess you could. I can only read through so many posts by people clearly ignorant of how 3.5 psionics worked w/out reaching for a stiff drink. Depressing. I didn't have the strength to try to stamp out the same old weak arguments over and over...kudos to those of you who stuck through it!

Anyway, keep as close as possible to the 3.5 book, w/ obvious tweaks and errata, and a PFRPG upgrade, and you'll have a great product. Best of luck.

I like stamping out old arguments. It is a lot easier than stamping out new ones, and maybe it will teach people to read the rules instead of going by hearsay. I am not saying none of them read the rules, but it is obvious that some of them dont.


Stormhierta wrote:
Disciple of Sakura wrote:

Sweet freakin hells yes!

I love Dreamscarred Press and Untapped Potential. You guys actually love the wonderfully balanced XPH and show it in everything you do.
*blushes* Well thankyou. We are passionate about what we write and I think it shows, but it is always awesome to read stuff like this! :D

I remember you guys mentioning that you’d love to take the reins from Paizo for a Psionics book back in the “What Does Psionics Mean to You?” thread. And I definitely don’t get the impression that Paizo’s core staff really have nearly the love or appreciation of psionics that I know DSP has. I’m much more comfortable with you guys doing something.

Stormhierta wrote:
Disciple of Sakura wrote:


Here's a couple of things that I'd say a Pathfinderized Psionics needs:
1) A "Cantrips" style ability, wherein psions and wilders (and maybe PsiWars) get unlimited manifestations per day.
Suggestion: There are several level 1 powers that really shouldn't be (I'm looking at you, Detect Psionics), so downgrade those to some sort of thing, maybe call it "talents." To differentiate between disciplines let every psion manifest all the talents at will for no cost except giving up their psionic focus. Unless it's a talent from their discipline, in which case they don't even need to use their focus. This allows them to have a nice selection of abilities, but further emphasizes the discipline the psion has. Not sure how to do it with Wilders and PsiWars, but that'd be the way I'd go.
Absolutely. We are discussing a system where as long as you maintain psionic focus, you can manifest a number of talents, depending on class and focus naturally.

Cool. I’m glad to know that it’ll be there, and that it’ll be tied to the Psionic Focus mechanic. Are you planning on reinstating Concentration as a skill? I’d roll most of Autohypnosis in with it, since it sits well with the whole skill consolidation thing, but I’m curious to hear your thoughts on that, too.

Stormhierta wrote:
Disciple of Sakura wrote:


2) Bring some additional parity to the psionic powers (without ruining their flexibility). Psionic Dominate is terrible compared to standard Dominate Person (unless you use Hyperconscious), so get it up to the level where you're not shutting yourself down to get control of an enemy. Wizards don't have to, so psions certainly shouldn't.
3) Create some sort of illusion-y psionic powers. It just seems odd to me that psions can't trick people into thinking they're seeing/feeling/smelling/tasting/hearing something they're not.
We will absolutely expand on the "spell-like" powers to make them feel definately psionic. However, adding new powers will be too much for a project this size and a publisher this small. For an expansion though, not at all improbable.

I am glad that you’ll be getting them a bit more flavorful. I am sad that we won’t get lots of new shinies right out of the box, but I can certainly understand it.

Stormhierta wrote:
Disciple of Sakura wrote:


4) Let me do some art. D&D Portfolio
Come over to the DSP forums and we can discuss this. :) Honestly.

Where on the forums would be the best place for that. I’m thinking Submissions, but I want to know what you’d recommend.

Stormhierta wrote:
Disciple of Sakura wrote:


5) Make sure you keep it the way it is. One of the most disappointing things about the "What does Psionics mean to you?" thread was the general feeling I got that the Paizo guys had it out for the XPH and wanted to replace it with another Vancian system. What I love about the XPH is the points system, the flavor, and how it isn't exactly the same as playing a wizard.
7) Perhaps figure out some guidelines for what to do with a psionic in games where you don't have the expected 4 encounters per day. That's what trips up so many people on how they work, and it's the part that designers of adventures so often ignore as a conceit of the game.
No worries, one of the things we aren't changing is how the system works. However, we are probably going to introduce a variant rule system for giving the Psionic classes "power points per encounter" to make them more balanced around different "encounters". For those that are interested that is.

That’s a good idea. Encounter based design is a good idea, since it’s much easier to work with for DMs who don’t like the restrictions D&D 3.5 was originally designed with.

Stormhierta wrote:
Disciple of Sakura wrote:


6) Update the Marksman and Society Mind for it, too. I love those classes very, very much, especially the Society Mind.

There will be more expansions for Pathfinder Psionics as time passes, don't you worry about that! :D

I look forward to start churning out new PDFs for you guys to peruse and give us the kind of awesome feedback that Paizo fans have become renowned for! :D

Sweet. I look forward to the expansions, too. And print on demand is a great way to approach this, so that those of us who love killing trees can do so easily.

Seriously, this thread made my day. And considering that work is going to getting crazy right now, this is a really nice pick-me-up to go along with my wife’s pregnancy.


If I posted all my Pathfinder Psionic Ideas, it would probably crash the message boards, but here are a chapter-by-chapter list of ideas.

Chapter 1: Races

Naturally Psionic: Gain the bonus power point(s) every level, not just at 1st level. Having one more point than me at 10th level is nothing, having 20 more points than me, OK I’m impressed!

I would also remove the ritual-rebirth aspect from the Elan. They just spontaneously “happen” at puberty to some human children. Why should be a mystery.

Chapter 2: Classes

Psion: #1 rule--- Make the specialists, special. Specialists should get special abilities. Starting with a Free Augmentation when they manifest a power within their discipline, and an additional free augmentation every 5 levels.

Eliminate the specialist power lists, all Psion /Wilder powers should be on one list. Having this separate list just forces Psions to waste a feat, and with the extra feats in PRPG, you can afford to but shouldn’t have to, so lets just put all powers on one list.

Add the Psionicist as a generalist Psion. His special abilities should be based off the Emulate Power from the 3.0 Psi Hdbk. That would give us a backdoor Erudite.

Also restore the 0 level Talents from the 3.0 Psi Hdbk.

Psychic Warrior: Only needs one change, replace their Bonus Feat at 2nd, 8th, 14th, 20th levels with the Wild Feat the Man-at-arms from Iron Heroes gets. Each morning, the Psychic Warrior can choose what feat fills each of these slots. They must be legal feats that they qualify for, but of course he can use lower level Wilds Feats to qualify for another Wild Feat.

Soul Knife: The base class with the most similarities to the Soul Knife would be the Ranger. Both get Weapon feats, Movement abilities, but the main difference is the Ranger gets spells. The Soul Knife needs equivalent powers. They should be based on Force, Weapon Enhancement & Movement.

Wilder: This class is fun to play but it is the only class in D&D that actually gets worse as she levels. Enervation has to be re-imagined, and the class needs “something” to make it more than just a Psion -adept.

If possible add the Akashic from Arcana Evolved as a Psionic Bard/ Factotum class. And add the Morphean as a Psionic Rogue.

Chapter 3: Skills and Feats

Keep Autohypnosis as a new skill and add Knowledge (Psionics) as a sub-category.

Concentration checks become a class ability as per the Wizard and other spell-casters.

Psicraft and Use Psionic Device should be replaced with Spellcraft and Use Magical Device. There is no difference between Arcane and Divine with these skills, so why create a separate skill here? In a “Psionics are Different” setting, you just impose a penalty when using these for cross-power analysis.

As to feats, we just need to bring in some OGL feats. The Kensai feats for Soul Knives, Sequestral feats and the Mantra feats from Dreamscared Press.

Metapsionic Feats need to be rewritten to be described as “Universal Augmentations”. When you apply a Metapsionic Feat to a power, you have to sacrifice your Psionic Focus (and possibly a Mantra Feat’s effects), to “synch” the feat with your power. You may then Augment it with that feat as a Augmentation till you regain your Psionic Focus.

Chapter 4: Psionics:

We need to find a happy median between Psionic = Magic and Psionics are Different.

Chapter 5: Powers

Restore 0 Level Talents from the 3.0 Psi Hdbk so Psionic classes get a “free” power like Cantrips.

All powers should have Augmentations!
If there is any bonus, it can be augmented. If it does damage, it can be augmented, there should be something that every power does that can be enhanced.

Just as Polymorph was broken up, so too should Metamorphosis. But we don’t stop there; Astral Construct should be changed back into Astral Construct I thru IX just like the Summon spells. The Augmentations should enhance or multiply that construct, not change it into a higher level one. Other “combined powers” should be broken up as well, like Psionic Charm.

The Energy Powers should be changed so that when you learn one, you choose one energy type to manifest this power with. You can use an Augmentation to change the energy type, and since a Kineticist gets a Free Augmentation within his Discipline, he can always choose his energy type.

Certain powers need to be reworked; Mind Seed needs to be less deadly and more useful (seed your skills, powers, basic knowledge).

Fill in “Missing Powers”: There are many OGL spells in Bastion Press, Fantasy Flight and Malhavoc that could become new Psionic Powers and fill in gaps in the Disciplines. Especially Anti-powers; Seer powers that conceal or block divinations, Shaper powers that destroy or use entropy, and Nomad powers that stop or block traveling.

Chapter 6: Prestige Classes
Chapter 7: Psionic Items
Chapter 8: Monsters

The only thing here is to use the OGL to bring in additional ones from the afore mentioned companies.

Chapter 9: Golarion

Or how does psionics fit in this world? Are Maenads the result of Runelord experiments? Do Dromites come from the Moon? Are the Elan the result of some ancient curse or reincarnation effect? Who are the Psionic “powers” of this world? Who or what do Psions fear? Where are Psionics common and where are they burned as witches?


Dark Psion wrote:

Chapter 9: Golarion

Or how does psionics fit in this world? Are Maenads the result of Runelord experiments? Do Dromites come from the Moon? Are the Elan the result of some ancient curse or reincarnation effect? Who are the Psionic “powers” of this world? Who or what do Psions fear? Where are Psionics common and where are they burned as witches?

1) Dreamscarred can't do Golarion stuff, and PFRPG rulebooks are setting neutral.

2) What your looking for has its own 2-page rundown in the campaign setting.


First of all, many people asked about whether we will go with Psionics as Magic, or Psionics as Different and we will most assuredly use the Psionics as Magic rules. Mechanically it makes no sense to add extra layers of work for both the GM and the players. However, in the chapter for alternate rules and themes, we will include rules on how Psionics "as different" could potentially work. Note though that this will be explicitly a variant rule, not the main rule.

concerro wrote:
1. I dont want to go to Enworld and Paizo to post responses. I would like for one place or the other to be the official response station. Fighting a war on two fronts is not fun. I know this may not be feasible however so I won't harp on it.

We are reading and commenting on our own forums at Dreamscarred Press, here AND on ENWorld. Do not feel that you need to cross-post or multipost just to get our attention. We read everything on all three boards and strive to reply to as many points as we can. So stay here, give us your thoughts and we will be happy. We don't MIND if people wanna stray over to our forums too, since they are very psionics-focused.

concerro wrote:
2. If Paizo and DSP are both doing Psionics I feel as though they will be very similar so I dont see why DSP can't do the rules for psionics, unless profits will be an issue, which I understand, but if either one of your systems are close to the 3.x system, which DSP's already is, I will purchase the first one out of the gate if it is close enough to 3.X's. Now if the other company has a very different, but nice idea, I have no idea what I will do.

Well, we have extended a hand of friendship and partnering on this to Paizo and if any Paizo execs read this (Erik, James?) and feel that "Oh wow, I forgot about those guys and we meant to reply..." - well, feel free to shoot us a reply to those last emails we sent and we'd be happy to partner! :D But unless that happens, we feel that Pathfinder and its fans deserve an available Psionic ruleset, compatible with the 3.5 supplements out there.

concerro wrote:
3. Saving the best for last: Psionics were not up to the level of magic users in 3.5. I never played 3.0 so I can't speak on that. I dont want to hi-jack the post so we may need to may another thread for this issue, but then again since this is the psionics thread.......

In our eyes, Psionics was pretty much balanced and we did adress a number of broken powers or "loopholes" before in Untapped Potential and we will take the same critical eye towards balancing things. With new classes, races and spells to balance against, this might mean a few things change in the "balance formula" but we're not 100% sure how and what that will affect.

Skaorn wrote:

What I mean by lite is the prevelance of magic vs psionics in the world, as magic is used in everything in the setting. While psionics are there and have a place, its overshadowed by magic and Dragonmarks. If you make a setting that has both magic and psionics, but throw in something like Dragonmarks for Psionics so you can dabble in it, have a well thought out system, and probably leave out the lightning rails and such you can probably push psionics really well.

Edit: I would suggest that it be published seperately, that way you can add fun stuff like Warforged, Shifters, etc.

We do offer an "all-psionics" setting, called Third Dawn, which will be released as a Pathfinder-based setting at a later stage (although it is already pretty PF-compatible). However, we will look at expanding the possible uses and concepts for the Wild Talent feat, letting more people add a touch of psionics to their character without investing completely through a class.

Disciple of Sakura wrote:
Are you planning on reinstating Concentration as a skill? I’d roll most of Autohypnosis in with it, since it sits well with the whole skill consolidation thing, but I’m curious to hear your thoughts on that, too.

We're most probably only going to add Autohypnosis as a new skill and roll the other uses of Psicraft, Knowledge: Psionics and Concentration into already existing skills such as Spellcraft, Knowledge: Arcana. Psionic Focus will be tied to Autohypnosis instead of Concentration and make the same Concentration-changes as was made for the Wizard.

Regarding art - post in either Submissions or General, we will find and answer your post either way. :)

Dark Psion wrote:
Naturally Psionic: Gain the bonus power point(s) every level, not just at 1st level. Having one more point than me at 10th level is nothing, having 20 more points than me, OK I’m impressed!

We recently updated our Third Dawn setting where all "psionic" races already have this implemented. We view Third Dawn as something of a precursor, our internal Beta on a few things, for the Pathfinder Psionics release, so we will most probably keep this idea and make it part of the "Psionic" subtype or racial ability.

Dark Psion wrote:

Psion: #1 rule--- Make the specialists, special. Specialists should get special abilities. Starting with a Free Augmentation when they manifest a power within their discipline, and an additional free augmentation every 5 levels.

Eliminate the specialist power lists, all Psion /Wilder powers should be on one list. Having this separate list just forces Psions to waste a feat, and with the extra feats in PRPG, you can afford to but shouldn’t have to, so lets just put all powers on one list.

Add the Psionicist as a generalist Psion. His special abilities should be based off the Emulate Power from the 3.0 Psi Hdbk. That would give us a backdoor Erudite.

Psychic Warrior: Only needs one change, replace their Bonus Feat at 2nd, 8th, 14th, 20th levels with the Wild Feat the Man-at-arms from Iron Heroes gets. Each morning, the Psychic Warrior can choose what feat fills each of these slots. They must be legal feats that they qualify for, but of course he can use lower level Wilds Feats to qualify for another Wild Feat.

Soul Knife: The base class with the most similarities to the Soul Knife would be the Ranger. Both get Weapon feats, Movement abilities, but the main difference is the Ranger gets spells. The Soul Knife needs equivalent powers. They should be based on Force, Weapon Enhancement & Movement.

Wilder: This class is fun to play but it is the only class in D&D that actually gets worse as she levels. Enervation has to be re-imagined, and the class needs “something” to make it more than just a Psion -adept.

If possible add the Akashic from Arcana Evolved as a Psionic Bard/ Factotum class. And add the Morphean as a Psionic Rogue.

We have already decided on giving each Devotion a number of specific abilies tied to their Discipline, so that should be taken care of. A "generalist psion" might be a cool idea and we will look into implementing it. Removing the Disicipline-specific lists however is in my eyes not a good idea since I view it as part of balancing Psionics. Also, since characters get more feats, adding more powers isn't nearly as costly as it was before, AND researching powers is still an option.

The Wild Feat concept is awesome and that is indeed an interesting concept. We will look into giving the Psychic Warrior some form of "fluid feat mastery".

I'm wary of giving the Soulknife a power progression, however, taking a queue from Wizards of the Coast, giving him multiple Wild Talent feats as he progresses might be a way to do it.

We've already re-imagined some of the Wilder and we intend to "give it more" than it already has, increasing its options. Adding new classes will, as I said above, be left for supplemental books.

Finally, unless we partner with Paizo, we cannot talk or discuss Psionics in Golarion, which is very much Product Identity for Paizo.

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