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I've been trying to convert an old 3e spell one of my characters used to have way back in the days when 3e and d20 were brand new and I was excited just to have the first Relics and Rituals. I always kind of liked the idea of Dolomar's Force Wave, at least, if not so much the function.
Anyway, the spell basically created a wave of force radiating out from the caster in a burst that let him effectively Bull Rush everything around him in a radius that increased by level. My guess on how to convert it would be setting the radius to fixed area (10' radius, maaaaaybe 15' or 20'), swapping caster level and primary casting stat in place of your normal CMB for the check, and negating the AoO for not having Improved Bull Rush (although the caster still might be subject to them for casting while threatened).
The big question I have is what level should this thing be at? The original inspiration is a 2nd level spell, but the effects I've envisioned for it feel a bit too powerful to me, at least under Pathfinder mechanics at that spell level. I can't really find any good direct equivalents in any WotC or third party books to base my conversion off of. The various Hand spells talk about being able to be use the Hand to bull rush one single opponent continuously, but that's a single target being able to be repeatedly Bull Rushed over the duration of the spell. My conversion target is a single use, standard action spell that bull rushes everything in a certain radius. Pretty good "Oh crud, there's little goblin freaks climbing all over me!" type of thing for a mage, but not all that impressive, particularly if the targets are all monks.
So, any ideas on the spell level? 3rd? 4th? Higher, if we up the area of effect? Thanks in advance for the advice/critiques.
Personally, I wouldn't call this a particularly high-level spell. I've never been impressed with pushing an opponent around. It sounds to me like it would be a third-level spell at best, maybe even second. Do you have some idea of the mechanics you want to use?
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I agree. It's much less powerful that a third level spell as it doesn't do damage. Situationally, it would be powerful, but overall, not.
So: 2nd level. Evocation effect. Probably without the force descriptor. 10ft radius burst (which means it will affect up to 12 creatures. but with no discrimination of friend and foe). No SR. No save, just the CMD. What sort of range are you looking at. I'd go with short or possibly medium. Components? I can't see it needing an expensive material component for balance.
The mechanism of a free CMB Bull Rush attempt seems solid, but I'd add spell level into the calculation, too. I presume the Bull Rush is away from the target point? Do you think it should be a separate Bull rush for each victim within the burst, or just one roll?
Second level is good, but leave it the force descriptor. Instead of using Str and base attack for the attack, use the caster's caster level and primary casting stat bonus. So a wizard would get CL+Int bonus.
One roll would make the procedure faster, but really I would say a roll against each target would be appropriate. No size limit, and the wave moves with the target out to the maximum range of the spell. 5 ft radius burst plus 5 feet per 4 levels. So, 5 at 3rd level, but it would be 10 at fourth level and 30 at 20th level.
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Second level is good, but leave it the force descriptor. Instead of using Str and base attack for the attack, use the caster's caster level and primary casting stat bonus. So a wizard would get CL+Int bonus.
One roll would make the procedure faster, but really I would say a roll against each target would be appropriate. No size limit, and the wave moves with the target out to the maximum range of the spell. 5 ft radius burst plus 5 feet per 4 levels. So, 5 at 3rd level, but it would be 10 at fourth level and 30 at 20th level.
Increasing the spread might make it too powerful as each 5ft radius increase adds at least 8 creatures that can be affected.
I suggested removing the force effect as I'm not sure that pushing around incorporeal creatures is appropriate for a 2nd level spell. I agree with your proposal for CMB=Caster Level+Spell Level+Casting Stat.
If it's evocation it needs the [Force] or [Air] descriptor. Transmutation could get away without one, as a telekinetic like affect.
No save of course, but it probably *should* have SR. If it did damage, hitting incorporeal might be too nice, but as it is what good is pushing around a ghost? Would make a nice spell vs. shadows.
Best comparison 'spell' I can think of is Ring of the Ram - though that does do damage. It's priced as basically a 2nd level wand (accounting for a doubling of cost so that anyone can use it). This spell does a small area, but no damage.
I'd say 2nd level with SR, and maybe with making it half caster-level (in place of BAB) - still getting the primary stat instead of strength. If still full caster level, it probably needs to be capped at +10.
With no SR and full caster level, 3rd is probably more appropriate - the caster should rarely fail that bull rush.
I've been trying to convert an old 3e spell one of my characters used to have way back in the days when 3e and d20 were brand new and I was excited just to have the first Relics and Rituals. I always kind of liked the idea of Dolomar's Force Wave, at least, if not so much the function.
Anyway, the spell basically created a wave of force radiating out from the caster in a burst that let him effectively Bull Rush everything around him in a radius that increased by level. My guess on how to convert it would be setting the radius to fixed area (10' radius, maaaaaybe 15' or 20'), swapping caster level and primary casting stat in place of your normal CMB for the check, and negating the AoO for not having Improved Bull Rush (although the caster still might be subject to them for casting while threatened).
The big question I have is what level should this thing be at? The original inspiration is a 2nd level spell, but the effects I've envisioned for it feel a bit too powerful to me, at least under Pathfinder mechanics at that spell level. I can't really find any good direct equivalents in any WotC or third party books to base my conversion off of. The various Hand spells talk about being able to be use the Hand to bull rush one single opponent continuously, but that's a single target being able to be repeatedly Bull Rushed over the duration of the spell. My conversion target is a single use, standard action spell that bull rushes everything in a certain radius. Pretty good "Oh crud, there's little goblin freaks climbing all over me!" type of thing for a mage, but not all that impressive, particularly if the targets are all monks.
So, any ideas on the spell level? 3rd? 4th? Higher, if we up the area of effect? Thanks in advance for the advice/critiques.
I'd put it in the same school as telekinesis (transmutation), since a targeted bull-rush is kind of a lesser version of that spell.
If you're keen on it being evocation, then I agree that it should either be force or air (wind effect), depending on the flavour you prefer.
'findel
If it doesn't do damage, the most comparable spells in power level might be grease or more likely web, which have effects similar to tripping and grappling.
The saves for both are pretty low, but grease affects a 10 foot square and web affects a 20-foot radius.
A 20-foot radius from the caster is going to hit allies as much or more than enemies. A cone AoE might be useful as well.
It sounds like the kind of spell that has little utility... but in the right situation, such as a narrow bridge or ledge, might be devastating... probably more useful for NPCs.
Check "Force Ram" in Dragon Magazine #323 (page 80). If my memory serves me correctly, it could be used to perform ranged bullrushes and disarms via the use of a rapid burst of telekinetic thrust.
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Second level is good, but leave it the force descriptor. Instead of using Str and base attack for the attack, use the caster's caster level and primary casting stat bonus. So a wizard would get CL+Int bonus.
One roll would make the procedure faster, but really I would say a roll against each target would be appropriate. No size limit, and the wave moves with the target out to the maximum range of the spell. 5 ft radius burst plus 5 feet per 4 levels. So, 5 at 3rd level, but it would be 10 at fourth level and 30 at 20th level.
I have to check my 'Magic of Faerûn', but I *think* it has a second-level spell called 'Spectral Stag' that works just like this (with the Force descriptor and all). The only difference is that 'Spectral Stag' (IIRC) targets only a single creature.
I have to check my 'Magic of Faerûn', but I *think* it has a second-level spell called 'Spectral Stag' that works just like this (with the Force descriptor and all). The only difference is that 'Spectral Stag' (IIRC) targets only a single creature.
I *hate* spectral stag. It is similar, however. If I remember right, there is a flaming burst spell that works in a similar fashion in the PHB2, except it does fire damage instead of pushing. Hell, isn't there a Force Wave spell somewhere? I wish I could remember...