The bar has been moved to a higher level.
American capitalism is the greatest engine on earth. Pathfinder RPG and its creators are a beacon to the rest of the world showing what hard work, creativity and teamwork can accomplish.
Bravo!
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Why don't we make it Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 3rd edition instead?
Never understood how the last version of D&D was just 3rd edition. Where was Dungeons and Dragons 2nd edition? Did I miss it?
I saw Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, and Advanced Dungeons and Dragons 2nd edition, and Dungeons and Dragons, but never just a D&D 2e.
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Playing devil's advocate, Pathfinder is not D&D 5e I am afraid. D&D is a brand and as such has considerable value in and of itself, without that Pathfinder will never have what D&D has.
Sorta/kinda in agreement on this. Pathfinder is Pathfinder. Not D&D. And I like it that way myself. D&D is just a brand and it doesn't HAVE to be the end all to be all table top games so I'm happy just calling it Pathfinder instead of any 3.75 or whatever else people are doing ^_^
Pathfinder RPG is D&D 5th edition
Uh, no. It's 3rr, or 3.75, if you want. Definetly not 5. It's possible that PFRPG 3rd edition will be something like D&D 5e is supposed to be, but this is not a new edition of the game. It's a revision.
American capitalism is the greatest engine on earth.
Not even touching the statement itself with a three metre pole, but capitalism is the last thing I think of when I hear Paizo.
Pathfinder RPG and its creators are a beacon to the rest of the world
Again, can you stop saying stuff like that?
Keep political statements far, far away from the RPG boards.
Sorta/kinda in agreement on this. Pathfinder is Pathfinder. Not D&D. And I like it that way myself. D&D is just a brand and it doesn't HAVE to be the end all to be all table top games so I'm happy just calling it Pathfinder instead of any 3.75 or whatever else people are doing ^_^
I'll second that-
GRU
Pathfinder RPG is D&D 5th editionUh, no. It's 3rr, or 3.75, if you want. Definetly not 5. It's possible that PFRPG 3rd edition will be something like D&D 5e is supposed to be, but this is not a new edition of the game. It's a revision.
American capitalism is the greatest engine on earth.Not even touching the statement itself with a three metre pole, but capitalism is the last thing I think of when I hear Paizo.
Pathfinder RPG and its creators are a beacon to the rest of the world
Again, can you stop saying stuff like that?
Keep political statements far, far away from the RPG boards.
You said it, KaeYoss! - and who'd even WANT to "bacon to the rest of the World"?
GRU
and who'd even WANT to "bacon to the rest of the World"?
GRU
The implications of such a desire are deliciously disturbing.
PATHFNDER RPG I D&D 5TH EDITIONThe bar has been moved to a higher level. ...
Can we just not do this, please?
These sorts of side-swipes and one-up-isms are unnecessary and detrimental to the hobby. Pathfinder stands on its own feet as a great game; you're not proving anything by clawing at the heels of its competitors.
I know that a lot of Pathfinder fans first came here because they felt burned by Hasbro. That's fine. All the better for Paizo and the wonderful work it is doing.
But now that our game is almost out can we please, please, please just enjoy it, without the smugness and negativity that so often mar an underdog brand?
Playing devil's advocate, Pathfinder is not D&D 5e I am afraid. D&D is a brand and as such has considerable value in and of itself, without that Pathfinder will never have what D&D has.Sorta/kinda in agreement on this. Pathfinder is Pathfinder. Not D&D. And I like it that way myself. D&D is just a brand and it doesn't HAVE to be the end all to be all table top games so I'm happy just calling it Pathfinder instead of any 3.75 or whatever else people are doing ^_^
Agreed, too. D&D is dead, long live Pathfinder. The name vouches for top notch quality and innovation, and a full commitment to the community.
It's sad, but D&D has come to be closed, restricted, limited. Pathfinder is open, free, shared.
The bar has been moved to a higher level.American capitalism is the greatest engine on earth. Pathfinder RPG and its creators are a beacon to the rest of the world showing what hard work, creativity and teamwork can accomplish.
Bravo!
I want to be Pathfinder Bacon to all the World!!!
Playing devil's advocate, Pathfinder is not D&D 5e I am afraid. D&D is a brand and as such has considerable value in and of itself, without that Pathfinder will never have what D&D has.Sorta/kinda in agreement on this. Pathfinder is Pathfinder. Not D&D. And I like it that way myself. D&D is just a brand and it doesn't HAVE to be the end all to be all table top games so I'm happy just calling it Pathfinder instead of any 3.75 or whatever else people are doing ^_^Agreed, too. D&D is dead, long live Pathfinder. The name vouches for top notch quality and innovation, and a full commitment to the community.
It's sad, but D&D has come to be closed, restricted, limited. Pathfinder is open, free, shared.
Yep, but we can play Pathfinder! We haven't lost anything... I know people who really like 4E and that's cool too.
Let's all join hands and sing:
WE ARE THE WORLD,
WE LOVE THE BACON
WE ARE THE ONES TO MAKE A BETTER WORLD,
SO LET'S ALL DIG IN!
A
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Not so sure about the whole 5E thing, but I do agree with the above. Great job Paizo!American capitalism is the greatest engine on earth. Pathfinder RPG and its creators are a beacon to the rest of the world showing what hard work, creativity and teamwork can accomplish.
Bravo!
I'm pretty sure that if you look at the whole collaborative development with the client base, and the way the OGL works; PFRPG holds much closer to socialist ideals, or at the very least a cooperative (as in ownership model) then pure capitalism (which as an ideal does not need to be nationalized.)
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Playing devil's advocate, Pathfinder is not D&D 5e I am afraid. D&D is a brand and as such has considerable value in and of itself, without that Pathfinder will never have what D&D has.Sorta/kinda in agreement on this. Pathfinder is Pathfinder. Not D&D. And I like it that way myself. D&D is just a brand and it doesn't HAVE to be the end all to be all table top games so I'm happy just calling it Pathfinder instead of any 3.75 or whatever else people are doing ^_^Agreed, too. D&D is dead, long live Pathfinder. The name vouches for top notch quality and innovation, and a full commitment to the community.
It's sad, but D&D has come to be closed, restricted, limited. Pathfinder is open, free, shared.
D&D is far from dead, perhaps dead to you, but it would seem to be progressing very successfully. Yes it is less open, and that is a shame, but it isn't closed, nor dead. PFRPG is open, although I'd think that the folks here might be upset if you called their RPG free? I don't know what part of it is OGL and what part of it isn't, but the spirit of the OGL isn't to give away RPGs but to create a legally unfettered platform for other content creators to collaborate on.
Anyways, my point is superlatives like this are often wrong or overstatements, and they just poison/polarize the group. Many gamers, and I count myself as one, have a long history of playing more then one game, as each game has its own aspect to be enjoyed. To discourage this is just a disservice to the industry, and to the creative types who make these games.
Not so sure about the whole 5E thing, but I do agree with the above. Great job Paizo!American capitalism is the greatest engine on earth. Pathfinder RPG and its creators are a beacon to the rest of the world showing what hard work, creativity and teamwork can accomplish.
Bravo!
I'm pretty sure that if you look at the whole collaborative development with the client base, and the way the OGL works; PFRPG holds much closer to socialist ideals, or at the very least a cooperative (as in ownership model) then pure capitalism (which as an ideal does not need to be nationalized.)
An intelligent response to... a, well whatever.
"BACON TO THE PEOPLE!"
GRU
So on a sort of related note, I've been wondering something.
The 3.x generation of the most popular medieval fantasy rpg in the world has been relatively unchanged, other than some tweaks (3.5 and Pathfinder) for now about 9 years or so. All previous generations of the game lasted about similar times (a decade or so), meaning that we are now about due for a more substantial revision of the game if we followed normal evolutionary timelines.
However, as I think we all can agree, the revision put forth by WoTC was too extreme. Too much, too different. Pathfinder, while awesome, is really just a revision of the existing rules and nothing especially dramatic. Some clean-ups, some clarifications, and some buffing here and there but its basically still the same 3.x engine underneath.
Part of me wonders how long this crowd will remain happy with still driving a car with a decade old engine with some new paint on it? Sure the car runs great and has very little mechanical issues, but eventually people just want something newer. Sure the paint job we just got is awesome, and sure the tune-up is likely to provide many more years of driving enjoyment, but how many people are actually ready now for Paizo to do something more dramatic?
How many people want Paizo to create a new model that does not still have all of the screw holes in the same place so all your body modification kits are still compatible? How many people are ready for Paizo to do a complete design, from scratch, something more dramatic, that is less focused on remaining compatible with previous editions and more focused on creating something all new, yet somehow still familiar? I'm not talking about something as dramatically different as 4E, but still I'd be ok with Paizo going out on a limb in a few places and trying some genuinely new ideas.
Ok, just me randomly wondering here :)
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So on a sort of related note, I've been wondering something.
The 3.x generation of the most popular medieval fantasy rpg in the world has been relatively unchanged, other than some tweaks (3.5 and Pathfinder) for now about 9 years or so. All previous generations of the game lasted about similar times (a decade or so), meaning that we are now about due for a more substantial revision of the game if we followed normal evolutionary timelines.
However, as I think we all can agree, the revision put forth by WoTC was too extreme. Too much, too different. Pathfinder, while awesome, is really just a revision of the existing rules and nothing especially dramatic. Some clean-ups, some clarifications, and some buffing here and there but its basically still the same 3.x engine underneath.
Part of me wonders how long this crowd will remain happy with still driving a car with a decade old engine with some new paint on it? Sure the car runs great and has very little mechanical issues, but eventually people just want something newer. Sure the paint job we just got is awesome, and sure the tune-up is likely to provide many more years of driving enjoyment, but how many people are actually ready now for Paizo to do something more dramatic?
How many people want Paizo to create a new model that does not still have all of the screw holes in the same place so all your body modification kits are still compatible? How many people are ready for Paizo to do a complete design, from scratch, something more dramatic, that is less focused on remaining compatible with previous editions and more focused on creating something all new, yet somehow still familiar? I'm not talking about something as dramatically different as 4E, but still I'd be ok with Paizo going out on a limb in a few places and trying some genuinely new ideas.
Ok, just me randomly wondering here :)
My luck with vehicles I'm not comfortable with this analogy as it means in approximately two years I'm going to total the system.
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I'm pretty sure that if you look at the whole collaborative development with the client base, and the way the OGL works; PFRPG holds much closer to socialist ideals, or at the very least a cooperative (as in ownership model) then pure capitalism (which as an ideal does not need to be nationalized.)
Socialism? So Paizo has been infiltrated by bacon-eating commies from Canada, eh?
However, as I think we all can agree, the revision put forth by WoTC was too extreme. Too much, too different. Pathfinder, while awesome, is really just a revision of the existing rules and nothing especially dramatic. Some clean-ups, some clarifications, and some buffing here and there but its basically still the same 3.x engine underneath.Part of me wonders how long this crowd will remain happy with still driving a car with a decade old engine with some new paint on it? Sure the car runs great and has very little mechanical issues, but eventually people just want something newer. Sure the paint job we just got is awesome, and sure the tune-up is likely to provide many more years of driving enjoyment, but how many people are actually ready now for Paizo to do something more dramatic?
The reasons why Pathfinder is a revision is because that's what was demanded by Paizo's customers. Some people liked 4e, some looked at it and said, "No Way! I'll stick with 3rd Edition. Even though I WISH the Monk was a little better designed and Polymorph was fixed..." and other people said, "I already OWN every single 3rd edition rulebook and splat ever published, some in duplicate, and I want these books to remain useful."
Demand answered. And so much so, that the first print run is sold out, and even more must be supplied than originally imagined.
I think you have a point, that in some ways, a brand new game would be nice--but it doesn't answer the above demands, and moreover, I think would be less successful when most people who want something new have gone over to 4e, homebrew, or just got a different game entirely. Point me to evidence otherwise, but I haven't seen a demand for something new. I've seen the demand for revision and the continued usefulness of pre-existing 3.x product. In other words--to answer you question of "how many people are ready for Paizo to do a complete design from scratch...?"---not many, not right now.
And let me just be clear--I am NOT saying, "Noooooo, new things are scary!" as I know gamers like myself are wont to do that, I'm just saying it's a different demand that Paizo is answering right now.
how long this crowd will remain happy with still driving a car with a decade old engine with some new paint on it?
Given this customer base was happy enough with 8 years of 3.x that they wanted a revision rather than all jump onto the 4e bandwagon (or do both at the same time), probably they will stay happy with it for another several years at least. Which gives Paizo plenty of time to come up with something new by the time there IS an actual demand for a new system.
And remember, a lot of gamers DON'T LIKE CHANGE. There are a lot of D&D gamers who steadfastly stick to AD&D and AD&D 2e, and those have a LOT more "mileage" than 3.x. :)
The real problem with RPG design is that you really, really, REALLY can't please everyone. Just trying to answer one demand at a time--in this case, a revised 3.x--seems to be the most sensible thing to do.
Someone's gotta feed the trolls, thats what PETT (People for the Ethical Treatment of Trolls) is for.
An intelligent response to... a, well whatever.
"BACON TO THE PEOPLE!"
GRU
"PETT"!!!- I'm at work right now and cofee came out of my nose!!
anyway, "BACON TO THE TROLL-PEOPLE!!!"
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Socialism? So Paizo has been infiltrated by bacon-eating commies from Canada, eh?I'm pretty sure that if you look at the whole collaborative development with the client base, and the way the OGL works; PFRPG holds much closer to socialist ideals, or at the very least a cooperative (as in ownership model) then pure capitalism (which as an ideal does not need to be nationalized.)
Can we just not do this, please?
These sorts of side-swipes and one-up-isms are unnecessary and detrimental to the hobby. Pathfinder stands on its own feet as a great game; you're not proving anything by clawing at the heels of its competitors.
Hydro: I agree completely. D&D is now more of a brand name than a game. The game has changed so much in 4th edition that the consistency of the gaming experience from 1st edition to 2nd, to 3rd has been broken in 4th edition (in my opinion). Since D&D 4th edition represents such a different game than D&D pre-4th. I think we just allow ourselves to think of D&D as the product that WOTC has. But WE have PATHFINDER!
It's not D&D version anything. It's Pathfinder. And it's our choice of RPG.
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Mmmmm. Bacon. Yummy.Socialism? So Paizo has been infiltrated by bacon-eating commies from Canada, eh?I'm pretty sure that if you look at the whole collaborative development with the client base, and the way the OGL works; PFRPG holds much closer to socialist ideals, or at the very least a cooperative (as in ownership model) then pure capitalism (which as an ideal does not need to be nationalized.)
Heheh...bacon shoes...
If paizo wrote a more heavily-revised game, I would probably buy it sight-unseen.
That said, and oldbies correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that 3e was the single most radical revision that the game has ever seen (assuming that we aren't counting 4e, having already branched away from it).
The terms "1e" and "2e" are deceptive, suggesting that od&d became AD&D in one big leap. It was actually very gradual and consisted of a slow, inevitable march of revisions, expansions and compilations.
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However, as I think we all can agree, the revision put forth by WoTC was too extreme.
I don't think we can all agree that I am afraid :)
How many people want Paizo to create a new model that does not still have all of the screw holes in the same place so all your body modification kits are still compatible?
When I realised PF RPG was not going to be 100% compatible with 3.5 I did finally express some desire that they make significant changes, however when I heard the final version was going to be more like 3.5 than Beta was I was disappointed somewhat.
So yes, there are some people like me who would probably have liked more of a step change, however I imagine I am in the minority.
So on a sort of related note, I've been wondering something...
I'd say somewhere from 6 to 10 years before a new version, maybe with an "adjustment edition" after 5 years, like 3.5 after 3.0...?
If this engine's well built, and it seems like it is, then I want to have time to run it before a new version's on the street.
My guess is that I'll be buying a lot of supplements for Pathfinder at my FLGS, and one of the main things that bugged me about 4E (and that was before I saw it) was that I'd invested a lot of money in Faerun books and adventures.
I thought that after 3.5 there would go a long time before support for the system would dry up.
GRU
I'd rather not even go down this path. Its only going to lead to the same old fights over and over again. I think its far more productive to simply thank Paizo for their work on this RPG and enjoy it for what it is . . . its own independent entity that is inspired by a long tradition that started with the creation of D&D years ago.
How do I sign up for the Pathfinder Bacon subscription?
I'd rather not even go down this path. Its only going to lead to the same old fights over and over again. I think its far more productive to simply thank Paizo for their work on this RPG and enjoy it for what it is . . . its own independent entity that is inspired by a long tradition that started with the creation of D&D years ago.
Knight, you're absolutely right...thanks. Sometimes I get carried away- personally, I blame the bacon...
GRU
I'm not trying to start anything here, just wondering how many people will be anxious for something a bit more dramatic sooner than Paizo is ready to deliver it? I know I will use and support Pathfinder for the foreseeable future, but I'd also be perfectly happy with a slightly more uniquely Paizonian approach to frpg instead of patching 3.x. Not that I'm unhappy with 3.x, just that I have faith that Jason et al could deliver something even better if they worried less about backwards compatibility and more about a more perfect overall system. This one is somewhat saddled with the requirement to maintain compatibility with previous versions. I'm sure if you removed that requirement Jason would have had some entirely different solutions to some problems, and some I'd be anxious to see.
Knight, you're absolutely right...thanks. Sometimes I get carried away- personally, I blame the bacon...
GRU
Eh, it happens. The bacon gets to us all, at one time or another . . . ;)
I'd say somewhere from 6 to 10 years before a new version, maybe with an "adjustment edition" after 5 years, like 3.5 after 3.0...?
I think I can safely say that while I'm into the system now, in 5 years I will be hoping to be into a new version and one that has let go of a little of the backwards compatibility in favor of more modern solutions.
How do I sign up for the Pathfinder Bacon subscription?
You don't have to sign up, we can all eat our bacon and still have it...
To quote Axel Rose:
"Welcome to the Bacon...!"
This is all just too halirous.
I was about to say something about people with lots of time on their hands, when I realised the irony of such a statement...
Im posting from a laptop in a caravan with sattelite internet in the outback of Australia . Powered by solar panels.
I had to write something.
I also had to look up Troll - which then led me to find out that there was a whole message board culture with things like sockpuppets and lurkers.
I think im a lurker...
Anyone got the stat blocks for these monsters !
On a bacon related note I just make 40 KG of salami !
Pepperoni, Polish and SLIM JIMS yes SLIM JIMS from America. I have the recipe and they taste better than the ones I used to get from the truck stops.
If anyone is in the Sydney region I offer a salami for your troll.
I love this group.
This is all just too halirous.
I was about to say something about people with lots of time on their hands, when I realised the irony of such a statement...Im posting from a laptop in a caravan with sattelite internet in the outback of Australia . Powered by solar panels.
I had to write something.
I also had to look up Troll - which then led me to find out that there was a whole message board culture with things like sockpuppets and lurkers.I think im a lurker...
Anyone got the stat blocks for these monsters !
On a bacon related note I just make 40 KG of salami !
Pepperoni, Polish and SLIM JIMS yes SLIM JIMS from America. I have the recipe and they taste better than the ones I used to get from the truck stops.If anyone is in the Sydney region I offer a salami for your troll.
I love this group.
The only times I make 40 kg. of salami, is when I've had a VERY strong cup of cofee...
Axel says:
"Welcome to the Salami!!"
BTW, what's a sockpuppet? I get these odd images, but I really hope that I'm wrong...
GRU
People ought to be careful about this "single game" fallacy.
It's not a competition. In the case of OP's claim that this somehow supersedes what WotC did with 4e, I don't think it's wise to get that competitive about it. There are plenty of people with room at their tables for both games. A vocal minority thinks they are mutually exclusive.
@jreyst: Likewise for people who want something new. I frequently want something new out of my games, so I go off and try a new game! But I also like something old, nostalgic, traditional. That's the niche that Pathfinder RPG is filling now. I don't think they would be having this commercial success if it was a completely new RPG system intended to compete with 4e, no matter how good either game was.
The fallacy here is that people can only ever play one game at a time, and that one game product must "win" the market. It is simply not true.
As for potential future overhauls of the system, I will be anxious to see what comes when we have had a few years to play around with this incarnation and see what could be improved. We just can't do that kind of speculation now, I haven't even read the rules!
This is all just too halirous.
I was about to say something about people with lots of time on their hands, when I realised the irony of such a statement...Im posting from a laptop in a caravan with sattelite internet in the outback of Australia . Powered by solar panels.
I had to write something.
I also had to look up Troll - which then led me to find out that there was a whole message board culture with things like sockpuppets and lurkers.I think im a lurker...
Anyone got the stat blocks for these monsters !
On a bacon related note I just make 40 KG of salami !
Pepperoni, Polish and SLIM JIMS yes SLIM JIMS from America. I have the recipe and they taste better than the ones I used to get from the truck stops.If anyone is in the Sydney region I offer a salami for your troll.
I love this group.
I can't help myself, sorry, but:
I'LL BE A FLAMING BACON TO THE WORLD - SOCK MY PUPPET!!!
It's late afternoon here in Koebenhavn (Copenhagen) and I'm off to meet the guys for an evening of sci-fi-D20-roleplay... (and I'll have to wait another week for my Pathfinderbook...sigh).
GRU
By making 40 kg of salami i mean - from pigs... and spices , and sheep gut casings...
not salami sandwiches. AHHA
You can wiki sockpuppet - but basicaly if I had another avatar and I used it to post stuff like " hey salami guy your really cool " then the other avatar that im using is called a "sockpuppet". Because its like im using a sockpuppet to talk to myself.
There is also the meatpuppet aparrently... this is the Dire Version of the Sockpuppet I belive...
I have no way to tell if there actually is a paizo community ... it actually could just be you and your 6000 sockpuppets... or meatpuppets...
I have no way to tell if there actually is a paizo community ... it actually could just be you and your 6000 sockpuppets... or meatpuppets...
...he knows.
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People ought to be careful about this "single game" fallacy.
It's not a competition. In the case of OP's claim that this somehow supersedes what WotC did with 4e, I don't think it's wise to get that competitive about it. There are plenty of people with room at their tables for both games. A vocal minority thinks they are mutually exclusive.
@jreyst: Likewise for people who want something new. I frequently want something new out of my games, so I go off and try a new game! But I also like something old, nostalgic, traditional. That's the niche that Pathfinder RPG is filling now. I don't think they would be having this commercial success if it was a completely new RPG system intended to compete with 4e, no matter how good either game was.
The fallacy here is that people can only ever play one game at a time, and that one game product must "win" the market. It is simply not true.
As for potential future overhauls of the system, I will be anxious to see what comes when we have had a few years to play around with this incarnation and see what could be improved. We just can't do that kind of speculation now, I haven't even read the rules!
QFT
Besides, good GMs borrow... I'm running the Second Darkness AP (written for 3.5) converted to PFRPG (by someone here on the forums, thanks thanks thanks) and have added in a number of encounters and monster to the second module (children of the void) that I've back converted from 4E Monster Manual 2, as some where in 4E they introduced the "far realm" which is that deep space, monsters from beyond feel that fits this module in the AP perfectly.
Its like politics, most people, at least in canada, don't 100% agree with the party they vote for, and 100% disagree with the rest. Unlike politics, we aren't stuck electing the one system we are going to use for the next four years, but can freely move back and forth (of course for the last few years in canada that's pretty much true as well.)
...he knows.
I have no way to tell if there actually is a paizo community ... it actually could just be you and your 6000 sockpuppets... or meatpuppets...
Send a squad to the Australian outback. Track his location from his signal.
The bar has been moved to a higher level.American capitalism is the greatest engine on earth. Pathfinder RPG and its creators are a beacon to the rest of the world showing what hard work, creativity and teamwork can accomplish.
Bravo!
Actually find a niche, doing market research and providing a product based off of these two things IS CAPITALISM in its purest form...Paizo is in it to make $$$$ just because their doing it the right way does not make them socialist... the concept of product research is a core value in modern capitalistic ventures... so despite their openness and willingness to listen to us, the consumer...the bottem line is still... well the bottem line...PROFIT
Pathfinder is an evolution of 3.5, and that´s it. I´m pretty much happy with 3.x gaming, as it is a lot of fun. I´m also somewhat fed up with major revisions of my favorite game systems, as the last revisions turned out to be something I dislike (nWoD, D&D4). I think I don´t need any major revisions for my gaming anymore, I´m fine with evolution and fine tuning - there is nothing wrong with using the same main engine for decades if it still meets all requirements. I no longer believe in newer = better. (Windows Vista, anybody?). So, gimme my revisions and I´m a happy gamer - and get off my lawn, dammit!
Stefan