How do I sign up for the Pathfinder Bacon subscription?
I too would like to sign up for the bacon subscription. ;D
The fallacy here is that people can only ever play one game at a time, and that one game product must "win" the market. It is simply not true.Henceforth known as the ToyRobots Fallacy.
-Skeld
Hah! Thanks!
I prefer "The Single Game Fallacy" myself, as it has the best chance of communicating the message.
I think it's really important that the Pathfinder community wrap their heads around this one. Paradoxically, even if you do believe it is a competition between WotC and Paizo, we should still endeavor to be a non-adversarial and constructive community. Tearing down other game systems only weakens the hobby.
I think that all gamers should try to play at least one completely new game a year. That will help to break the loyalist mindset that leads to these huge flamewars online. Even if 4e is not your cup of tea, or if Pathfinder isn't, someone is playing it. And the more people who play any sort of RPG, the better the climate for RPG players in general will become.
The folks at Paizo understand this, which is why they use other OGL products and sell a variety of non-OGL stuff made by other parties.
D&D is far from dead, perhaps dead to you,
"The king is dead to me, long live the king" just doesn't sound right.
I'd think that the folks here might be upset if you called their RPG free?
Free as in unrestricted. Not free as in complementary.
I don't know what part of it is OGL and what part of it isn't, but the spirit of the OGL isn't to give away RPGs but to create a legally unfettered platform for other content creators to collaborate on.
I think the way Paizo plays it, they designate all the rules stuff open content. Their intellectual property is closed content, so you cannot make money off it, but if you just want to create fanwork, they allow you to use even that.
Many gamers, and I count myself as one, have a long history of playing more then one game, as each game has its own aspect to be enjoyed.
Though I'm mostly a Pathfinder player, I do play other stuff.
To discourage this is just a disservice to the industry, and to the creative types who make these games.
Let's just completely ignore this aspect. No comment or anything. Back to praising Pathfinder and Paizo (PnP at it's best) without commenting other games or political crap.
I have no way to tell if there actually is a paizo community ... it actually could just be you and your 6000 sockpuppets... or meatpuppets...
There are just the two of us ....
The 3.x generation of the most popular medieval fantasy rpg in the world has been relatively unchanged, other than some tweaks (3.5 and Pathfinder) for now about 9 years or so. All previous generations of the game lasted about similar times (a decade or so), meaning that we are now about due for a more substantial revision of the game if we followed normal evolutionary timelines.
Not quite I say. 3e still has some life in it. Look at Pathfinder, the latest revision. It revitalises 3e - which many of us consider the best edition ever.
I give it a couple of years at least.
However, as I think we all can agree, the revision put forth by WoTC was too extreme.
Oh yes. It definetly is not a revision. At least a new edition (as they claim). I personally think it's a whole different game.
Part of me wonders how long this crowd will remain happy with still driving a car with a decade old engine with some new paint on it?
Depends on the car. Is it a good old VG Golf? One of those you could drive for hundreds of thousands of kilometers and they're still fine?
Or is it some of those cars who are barely out of the dealership before they have their first malfunctions, and will be returned before the break-in period is over?
Sure the car runs great and has very little mechanical issues, but eventually people just want something newer.
This revision is more than a new paint job on the car, though.
It's new and really comfy seats, a kick-ass new stereo with blue-tooth, DVD, and a navigational system, and chip tuning to give it another 50 horse power.
Sure, eventually, people will want something new. I know that, you know that, Paizo knows that (Jason is probably already having nightmares about it).
But it's not eventually yet.
How many people are ready for Paizo to do a complete design, from scratch
New design? Not yet. From scratch, like all the way? Never! Not as PFRPG, at least.
As I said, I feel that 3e still has some life in it, especially with the Pathfinder boost.
But yes, eventually, Paizo will probably do Pathfinder 2nd edition. It will be a new edition, and the rules will not be backwards compatible to Pathfinder/3rd edition, so they can look at absolutely everything and see how they can improve it.
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I was about to whine that I had read this thread before, until I got to toyrobot's post.
The Toyrobot Fallacy *does* indeed marginalize a lot of great games and settings that are out there. Mono-gaming is not healthy for our hobby. Have some sugar with your tea. Some chocolate with your peanut butter. Some Mouse Guard with your Pathfinder.
Mmm. Meeces.
Heheh...bacon shoes...
Are those the shoes you give to ugly kids so at least the dogs would play with them?
I'd say somewhere from 6 to 10 years before a new version, maybe with an "adjustment edition" after 5 years, like 3.5 after 3.0...?
Well, actually, PF already is an adjustmen edition (a.k.a. revision), and I think that while it will last longer than two years, it won't be 6.
Someone's gotta feed the trolls, thats what PETT (People for the Ethical Treatment of Trolls) is for.
An intelligent response to... a, well whatever.
"BACON TO THE PEOPLE!"
GRU
You say it feeding tome? Where food? You not tease Troll, do you? Troll loves bacon.
MMmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
[b]The fallacy here is that people can only ever play one game at a time
Whenever I try to play more than one game at a time, I get confused. Divided attentions and all that. Give it 5 minutes, and I try to score headshots. In chess. Or replace my usual taunts of "pwned n00b" with "checkmate pawn!" After 10 minutes at most, stuff like "pawned" shows up.
I was about to whine that I had read this thread before, until I got to toyrobot's post.
I was going to say the same until bacon came up.
Now this thread is making me hungry.
Whenever I try to play more than one game at a time, I get confused. Divided attentions and all that. Give it 5 minutes, and I try to score headshots. In chess. Or replace my usual taunts of "pwned n00b" with "checkmate pawn!" After 10 minutes at most, stuff like "pawned" shows up.
[b]The fallacy here is that people can only ever play one game at a time
Sure enough KaeYoss, but you get the point, I'm sure.
It's entirely possible that you only want to play 3.5 or Pathfinder, and that's fine.
I just sometimes worry that the Edition War nonsense stops some 4e players from trying new things like Pathfinder they might like. Likewise, why berate people for playing a game if they happen to like it? It's not a war, it's a market, with niches.
Some consumers (like myself) may feel not very well served by other specific games, which can turn into unwarranted aggression against the players of those games. Compounding this is the tendency of stubborn firebrands to root for the underdog and make extensive arguments on forums in favor of their preferred system. Sometimes, in the still darkness of the night, these conspirators find some glimmer of truth in their own reflection, and it is indeed terrifying...
Getting back to what the OP was saying, for him PRPG is like an extension of the game he has traditionally played. He likes it, and he wants to shout it from the rooftops. I can support that.
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People ought to be careful about this "single game" fallacy.
It's not a competition. In the case of OP's claim that this somehow supersedes what WotC did with 4e, I don't think it's wise to get that competitive about it. There are plenty of people with room at their tables for both games. A vocal minority thinks they are mutually exclusive.
@jreyst: Likewise for people who want something new. I frequently want something new out of my games, so I go off and try a new game! But I also like something old, nostalgic, traditional. That's the niche that Pathfinder RPG is filling now. I don't think they would be having this commercial success if it was a completely new RPG system intended to compete with 4e, no matter how good either game was.
The fallacy here is that people can only ever play one game at a time, and that one game product must "win" the market. It is simply not true.
As for potential future overhauls of the system, I will be anxious to see what comes when we have had a few years to play around with this incarnation and see what could be improved. We just can't do that kind of speculation now, I haven't even read the rules!
QFT
Besides, good GMs borrow... I'm running the Second Darkness AP (written for 3.5) converted to PFRPG (by someone here on the forums, thanks thanks thanks) and have added in a number of encounters and monster to the second module (children of the void) that I've back converted from 4E Monster Manual 2, as some where in 4E they introduced the "far realm" which is that deep space, monsters from beyond feel that fits this module in the AP perfectly.
Its like politics, most people, at least in canada, don't 100% agree with the party they vote for, and 100% disagree with the rest. Unlike politics, we aren't stuck electing the one system we are going to use for the next four years, but can freely move back and forth (of course for the last few years in canada that's pretty much true as well.)
Hmmm, I play CoC, GURPS, D&D 3.5, AD&D 1e, and now Pathfinder. Just because I don't play 4e doesn't mean I limit myself to one game. I doubt if there are many who do.
Hmmm, I play CoC, GURPS, D&D 3.5, AD&D 1e, and now Pathfinder. Just because I don't play 4e doesn't mean I limit myself to one game. I doubt if there are many who do.
Since we appear to be in violent agreement, I'm going to walk away after this last point (I hope).
I understand you don't want to play 4e, but nothing is gained by attacking it. And something is lost. I don't care for it myself, but my friends play it, and I don't begrudge them their fun.
It isn't about you, nor is it about me. People will play the games they like, and no amount of reasoned argument back and forth on the internet will change that one whit.
This chat has actually been fun for me, I'm going to duck out now (lurk, maybe come back when it cools off).
Hmmm, I play CoC, GURPS, D&D 3.5, AD&D 1e, and now Pathfinder. Just because I don't play 4e doesn't mean I limit myself to one game. I doubt if there are many who do.
My guess would be that most RPG players limit themselves to one game. The market reach of D&D is so much greater than any other game out there, and many people do not have time to invest in more than one game. Again, just an educated guess, but my prediction is that most people who play tabletop RPGs play D&D, and most people who play D&D just play D&D. Many of the people who play games other than D&D also only play that one game.
This isn't a question of people saying "D&D/Pathfinder/Vampire/Mouse Guard/Paranoia/Spirit of the Century is the only game for me!" Rather, it's more like saying "I enjoy this game, and it satisfies my desire for tabletop gaming. I don't have the time or inclination to pick up or even really familiarize myself with other games out there, and as a result this will be the only game I play."
As nice as it would be for the entire community to pick up an extra game or two, I don't think it reflects reality. We need to be careful not to assume that our personal experiences and level of investment in our hobby extends to everyone else who plays. If you're here, on a messageboard talking about roleplaying games, chances are you fall into the more "hardcore" subset of RPG players.
I'm in the camp that thought 3.5 wasn't really broken. PF is just a fresh iteration of it, but a separate game, technically.
I tried 4e and didn't care for it. Others like it a lot. There are so many games out there, I'll never try them all. Switching to 3.0 was hard enough for my old brain!
Like the politics comment, you usually won't get everything you want in your politicians. You usually vote for the guy who's closest to what you want to see, and hope he/she does some of the things you want. Likewise, you go with the game that you enjoy the most; the one that lets you have your fantasy and play it, too. It's like choosing a favorite band or flavor of ice cream. I can't. They're all good in their own ways.
I went to Paizocon and was impressed by the passion people feel for the game, and the care taken to listen to the players. This is the game I've been waiting for. It's gonna be great!
Whenever I try to play more than one game at a time, I get confused. Divided attentions and all that. Give it 5 minutes, and I try to score headshots. In chess. Or replace my usual taunts of "pwned n00b" with "checkmate pawn!" After 10 minutes at most, stuff like "pawned" shows up.
[b]The fallacy here is that people can only ever play one game at a timeSure enough KaeYoss, but you get the point, I'm sure.
It's entirely possible that you only want to play 3.5 or Pathfinder
No, that's impossible. I want to play other stuff. In fact, I play other stuff. Not that often, but it happens. Serenety, WoD, Babylon 5, Umbra Fatalis (or whatever they're calling it now), occasionally other stuff.
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Part of me wonders how long this crowd will remain happy with still driving a car with a decade old engine with some new paint on it?
Quite some time. Real-world examples: HEROES System from HERO Games (soon to release 6th edition); GURPS by Steve Jackson Games (currently in 4th edition); and, in a pinch, the Palladium RPG by Palladium Books. (They SAY its second edition, but....)
Sure the car runs great and has very little mechanical issues, but eventually people just want something newer. Sure the paint job we just got is awesome, and sure the tune-up is likely to provide many more years of driving enjoyment, but how many people are actually ready now for Paizo to do something more dramatic?
How many people want Paizo to create a new model that does not still have all of the screw holes in the same place so all your body modification kits are still compatible? How many people are ready for Paizo to do a complete design, from scratch, something more dramatic, that is less focused on remaining compatible with previous editions and more focused on creating something all new, yet somehow still familiar? I'm not talking about something as dramatically different as 4E, but still I'd be ok with Paizo going out on a limb in a few places and trying some genuinely new ideas.
It depends on Paizo. I think it was either Mona, Jacobs, or Stevens who said one of the big reasons they had Buhlman go forth and create the Pathfinder RPG was to continue to sell the APs. They would have to reprioritize their limited resources and manpower if, instead, were to develop a "all new, yet somehow still familiar" rpg system. (Btw, you may get your wish -- Paizo has entertained the idea of a new psionic system).
A little off topic but...
The thing I love about 4th edition, though I love 3.5 and Pathfinder, is the fact you only attack once each round. I get sick of the multiple attacks in all 3.X games...
Back to topic.
Pathfinder D&D 5th edition? Absolutely not. What 4th edition should have been? More than likely. While I love Pathfinder, and will be there at GenCon in a few days to show my support, it really is not as radical a change as many people make it out to be. It's just a cleaned up version of 3.X with many of the same good and bad things still present. When all the splat books start coming out with new prestige classes it will become just as ridicuously broken as 3.5. They really need to implement a 1 prestige class limit or something before it's too late. Maybe even make Prestige classes like old school paladins, once you stray from the path you can't come back.
don't get me started on metamagic, those feats broke 3.5 Everyone walking around with permanent buffs, man who thinks of this stuff?
An aside note about PrC, in my Sunday game we came up with a house rule that once you begin a PrC you must finish out that one before you can start another.
Sorry if I am a little off topic.
There are just the two of us ....
I have no way to tell if there actually is a paizo community ... it actually could just be you and your 6000 sockpuppets... or meatpuppets...
Good morning! Just into the office and logged on to the board-
I play GURPS as well as Pathfinder and I find that those two systems cover my needs. Gurps for horror/sci-fi/you name it and Pathfinder for that Fantasy Kick In The Pants Feeling...
"You flaming bacon! get your paws of my meatpuppet!"
GRU
Actually find a niche, doing market research and providing a product based off of these two things IS CAPITALISM in its purest form...Paizo is in it to make $$$$ just because their doing it the right way does not make them socialist... the concept of product research is a core value in modern capitalistic ventures... so despite their openness and willingness to listen to us, the consumer...the bottem line is still... well the bottem line...PROFIT
I wonder... I know nothing about publishing businesses, although have run a fair few others. My guess would be that nobody but Hasbro publishes RPGs primarily because they want to make a profit. I'm sure they all like being richer over being poorer, but I doubt anyone gets into RPG publishing with profit as the primary motive - I just can't see that it's ever going to get you very rich.
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It's not 5th ed, it's 3.2. I never really thought 3.5 was a half-edition change, it was the first major revision of 3e. It should have been called D&D 3.1 - changes and fixes, a service pack to maintain the OS analogy, but not a major and significant revision. Pathfinder is just D&D 3e, Service Pack 2.
It's not Socialism...it's Monarchy, cuz Jason is King!
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It's not really 5th edition D&D. It is what 4th edition D&D should have been! WotC dropped the ball with their new game, and Paizo picked up the slack.
To me Pathfinder, AD&D, 3.5, 4th edition, the blue box, etc is all Dungeons and Dragons. Label it what you want but I call it D&D. I've been playing it since 1978 and my group calls it D&D. Still has elves, halflings, (the much hated) gnomes, paladins, dragons, etc, and dungeons...so whether you prefer 4 edition over PFRPG (like my group does) is a personal preference.
So lets all stop discussing/bickering/arguing over what it is or what to all it and just enjoy whatever version you prefer.With that said - BACON FOR ALL!