Devils and doing their badness?


3.5/d20/OGL

Grand Lodge

Okay, devils are the great manipulators. They get mortals to give up their souls for wealth, power, sex, whatever. But how on earth do the devils do it?

Barbed Devil (CR 11)- Diplomacy 6, Intimidate 19, Sense Motive 19 He doesn't convince very well for his level, but can bully someone well. Not really the manipulative type.

Bearded Devil (CR 5)- Diplomacy 2, Sense Motive 9 With diplomacy 2 he can barely manipulate a commoner! Maybe

Bone Devil (CR 9)- Bluff 15, Diplomacy 6, Intimidate 17, Sense Motive 15 Now THAT is what I call a DEVIL! Great Sense Motive, awesome Bluff, and if needed he can fall hack onto an Intimidate.

Chain Devil (CR 6)- Intimidate 12 No Sense Motive at all. He has no idea what the mortal wants. He can bully nicely, but has no clue what to bully the mortal into.

Erinyes (CR 6)- Diplomacy 7, Sense Motive 16 Awesome Sense Motice and can manipulate lesser beings, but will have a hard time with anything near their level.

Hellcat (CR 7)- no social skills at all so does no manipulation at all.

Horned Devil (CR 16)- Bluff 24, Diplomacy 10, Intimidate 26, Sense Motive 22 YES BABY! This IS a devil!

Ice Devil (CR 13)- Bluff 22, Diplomacy 9, Intimidate 24, Sense Motive 23 Yes this looks like a Devil

Imp (CR 2)- Diplomacy 8 a great Diplomat for its level, but again has no idea what it is trying to manipulate for.

Lemure (CR 1)- no skills at all... just sort of... there... what use is it to ANY of devilkind?

Pit Fiend (CR 20)- Bluff 29, Diplomacy 10, Intimidate 31 Well it can bluff and intimidate but sucks at figuring out what the mortal wants.

Seems to me a Devil should ALWAYS have Sense Motive. If it wants manipulate mortals it has to figure out their weaknesses, desires and vulnerabilities. Screaming at them to "tell me your weakness" doesn't really work very well. I always thought Devils were the sweet talkers, so it seems to me they should have a Bluff and Diplomacy skill that is high for their CR. Intimidate should be a tertiary manipulating skill for them.

I picture a devil at work sort of like Lord Voldermort as played by Ralph Fiennes. Quick witted, no ounce of compassion, silver tongued yet moody and unpredictable. He let's his power do the intimidating, he doesn't have to flaunt it. Yet he also knows his victim's weaknesses and strengths (usually). He might be overconfident, but because no one has ever actually beaten him before. And if he ever did loose, he can rationalize away why he lost.

Of the devils listed, most can manipulate a commoner. Some can actually manipulate a level appropriate PC sometimes. But only three really stand out as excelling at manipulation.

Or, am I incorrect and devils should be played more as bullies and machines of destruction like Demons?

Silver Crusade

Quick opinion on the matter of chain devils: I always thought of them as distributors of punishment more than anything else. Other devils might focus on corrupting mortals, but chain devils deal with those they already have in their power.

...I guess they could play the "we have what you need" to particularly desparate masochists. But as they are, it would probably play out like Hellraiser; you'd have to go looking for them, they don't come looking for you(hopefully).

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

You're complaining about the 3.5 skill lists, when there's probably going to be quite a difference in the final Pathfinder ones, if you remember. Most of those points that used to be split between Listen, Search, and Spot are going to be freed up, as are the ones for Hide and Move Silently, and Concentration as well. A devil that had all six of those skills maxed out now only has Perception and Stealth, and 4 extra skill points per hit die.


what Kvantum said.

i have to give props on the thread title:
"Devils and doing their Badness", next on Jerry..


Not all of them are just about corrupting mortals:

Chain Devil: is not even a true devil any more.
Lemure: Weak enforcers. The bottom of the pecking order. What you get when you first transform into a devil after your death. Need to learn humiliation, maggot. Plus, they're well-suited to send weak spellcasters as hellish support, making it possible to rely on devils early on.
Hellcat: An enforcer and guard...cat.

Hell is like a well-organised army, with specialists for many tasks.

I agree that sense motive, diplomacy and intimidate make sense - though sense motive often isn't really necessary. It takes no genious to figure out what someone wants - especially not if we're talking about stuff like pleasure, power or wealth. The guy will hardly request power, and when the devil comes collecting souls at the coronation, laugh at the devil and shout "Haha you got my soul for nothing! I wanted love all along!!!"

P.S. You couldn't have complained earlier, before the bestiary was pretty much done? That way, if Paizo hasn't thought of this, they could have done something about it...


Krome wrote:
Pit Fiend (CR 20)- Bluff 29, Diplomacy 10, Intimidate 31 Well it can bluff and intimidate but sucks at figuring out what the mortal wants.

I'm soooo houseruling them a score in Sense Motive... I mean, Pit fiends are the kings of Hell for Christ's sake! (pun intended)

Thanks for the pointers Krome. Heh, funny how I hadn't noticed that after a decade of 3E, perhaps because we've barely used fiends. Food for thought indeed.


A point to keep in mind is that these are immortal creatures who can watch at a distance-- many have telepathy and major image, and can carry on a conversation at range. They are going to observe a target for a while, learning what the person wants, needs, desires, and then work to create the situation where a "diplomacy check" is unnecessary because the target *wants* to take the deal. At that point, it's all over except for the haircut. They're going in saving 12 dollars.

I would agree that Sense Motive is appropriate and far too many monsters (and NPCs for that matter) do not have it when they should. Personally? I'd make it an extraordinary ability of all devils so that you don't run afoul of skill point recalculations and don't have to worry about some kind of field negating it.

-Ben.


Excellent points, Krome. I agree that devils do need to be differintiated from demons, and giving them social skills seems the best way to do it. Some thoughts/recommendations:

1. As has been mentioned, not all devils are corrupters. They serve a veriety of functions, the whole array of devilkind forming what amounts to the "legion/army of Hell" interpretation of fiends. For example, bone devils are like the police in Hell. Of course, considering your analysis, that's kind of ironic because they are one of the types more suited to corrupting mortals. However, if you pick up the excellent Fiendish Codex II, you will find there are a large number of new devils added to the book. Quite a few, such as the harvester devil, focus specifically on tempting and collecting souls from mortals.

Spoiler:
As an aside, if you think about demons, the glabrezu makes a better tempter than most devils because it can grant mortals wishes. Seems kinda backwards, don't it?

2. The "obvious," but also unpleasant, answer is to go through the MM an re-allocate the skill points of the devils. Yikes! You could take a note from dragons, who get the jump skill for free (i.e., it's always maxed out for their HD and never counts against/uses up their skill point pool). Of course, sense motive and diplomacy would be the skills devils get for free. Even with this option, however, you would still be looking at skill point re-allocations, which is never easy or fun.

3. Wait to get your copy of PFRPG (which, with recent news, sounds like it could take longer than expected unless you ordered early!) and hope they A) fixed this and/or B) that skill point re-allocations are easier under the new rules (which it really seems like they will be).

As another aside, I know that the Fiendish Codex I "introduces" rules for demonic possession (actually they were first printed in some other book, perhaps the BoVD?); and even provides some demons (loumaras) which can innately possess without an alternate special ability. It seems strange, however, that the core rules didn't think of that option and provide a method for it. The demonic possession rules in the FC are... not exactly clunky, but seem a little complex for what ought to be (IMO) a relatively straight-forward thing. I would love to see demonic possession rules that were more streamlined and universal to all demonkind, which I think would also go a long way towards effectively sorting them out from devils.

Grand Lodge

BTW, the reason I posted this observation in D&D 3.5/d20/OGL is because this is an observation about the 3.5 Devils.

Since the Pathfinder Bestiary has not been released there is no way to know for sure if there are any substantial changes. So, in other words, whatever Paizo does with devils if fine enough, but does nothing to change the observation. The big question then is, did Paizo actually give them higher points?

And I agree that many do have telepathy and can observe from a distance. But, the 3.x rules are sort of an even playing field. If a player were to make the observations the GM would as him to make a Sense Motive check (maybe with some nice bonuses from the observation). So it is unfair to give the devil a pass.

Now honestly, nearly all can swindle a level 1 commoner easily. So perhaps, as was pointed out, each has its role. An Imp for the commoners, and a Horned Devil for the pesky Wizards and such.

And the reason I never commented before is I was working out a scenario and needed a devil to do some manipulating. While looking through the list I was sorely disappointed in the choices I had. I couldn't go with the feel I wanted straight from the book, so I had to advance an Erinyes several levels and customize it for the job at hand.

WHICH of course is a perfectly valid thing to do. You can't have everything in the book just the way you want it ALL the time. :)

So, while I suppose it WORKS, it just doesn't SCREAM devil to me.

Grand Lodge

The fiends in the FCs are a bit better to me.

Another observation... sort of applies to demons and devils...

but to me, in most non-ancient myths and a few ancient ones (could be wrong here) but demons and devils are more often portrayed as incorporeal creatures that possess humans.

Where are they? Again, working on a scenario and needed a demon that was incorporeal... none. None that I found anywhere! Did I miss some? Probably somewhere. But where?

Dark Archive

I can give you all the answers you need...if you would be kind enough to sign this simple little contract. Blood? No, that's not blood. It's reddish ink...


Great thread, Krome et al. When you list the devils by CR, it makes the point even stronger: the sense motive manipulators clump up too much, they aren't spread out enough to make the "in the bureaucracy of hell, everyone has his/her role" motif work the way it should. I'm fine with their being devils whose primary role is not manipulation, but they should be the infernal support staff, spread out against a structure of manipulators for the range of those to be corrupted.

Now, my confidence is pretty high that this is the sort of thing that our infernally-oriented experts would have noticed...but if they didn't, I hope they take a look at this for the future of devils in the undoubted books to come.

And Saern, I've been screaming about demon possession for I don't know how long. It's always annoyed me that THE archetypal power of demons has been so categorically failed in representation.


Page 81 of the 3.5 Players Handbook indicates that Sense motive can be used untrained. So the only modifier would be the Wisdom bonus. A Pit Fiend for example has a 26 wisdom according to the Monster Manual or +8 modifier. Thus against a normal human with a Wis of 10 or so the Pit Fiend would have a d20+8 to the humans roll of d20+0. Still pretty decent against normals, but against a high level PC with ranks in Sense motive it may not be so great.

If it was me, I would chalk it up to an oversight and make Sense motive equivalent to Bluff or Diplomacy. Of course that's just a quick fix.

Scarab Sages

There's a devil in the bestiaries in Curse of the Crimson Throne, which acts as an infernal mediator. Can't remember its name, which issue, or it's abilities, but that might be what you need.


Krome wrote:

Another observation... sort of applies to demons and devils...

but to me, in most non-ancient myths and a few ancient ones (could be wrong here) but demons and devils are more often portrayed as incorporeal creatures that possess humans.

Where are they? Again, working on a scenario and needed a demon that was incorporeal... none. None that I found anywhere! Did I miss some? Probably somewhere. But where?

Yes, demons are traditionally portrayed as incorporeal spirits which move into a person and possess them. Devils are more often coporeal, but loaded with magical powers, and tempt mortals into corruption. D&D demons completely differ from their mythological and folkloric origins. D&D devils claim to hold the same role, but ultimately fail in the 3.5 mechanics they have been given.

Both seem to have been heavily influenced by the valaraukar (i.e., Tolkien's balrogs), which have no incorporealness or possessive abilities to them. They are just engines of destruction.

That being said, I do know of at least three incorporeal demons, two of which have possession abilities: shadow demons, and the two loumaras, the dybbuk and the guecubu. The first can be found in the BoVD and... it seems like somewhere else, but I've no clue where (MMII? FF?). The loumaras are in the FCI.

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Now, my confidence is pretty high that this is the sort of thing that our infernally-oriented experts would have noticed...but if they didn't, I hope they take a look at this for the future of devils in the undoubted books to come.

And Saern, I've been screaming about demon possession for I don't know how long. It's always annoyed me that THE archetypal power of demons has been so categorically failed in representation.

Considering Mr. Jacobs' role in the FCs, I certainly hope many of the ideas and concepts he helped develop and bring to 3.5 will be rolled into and streamlined as part of PFRPG. I know from the Bonus Bestiary that the shadow demon is supposed to be included, at least. As mentioned above, it was an incorporeal in 3.5.

The lack of a demon's ability to possess slipped past me for some time when I first came to the game in high school. I remember playing a NWN module and one BBEG died only to be consumed in flame and a demon to emerge. "I've got to have that happen in my campaign!" thought I. To my dismay upon reviewing the MM, there was no way for a demon to possess a mortal. I'm very tempted to write up my own basic mechanic, but I never have the time or will to go through with it all the way. I'll just have to hope PFRPG remedies it, and/or keep using the FC rules otherwise.


Yes, Mairkurion, it is a great thread.

Personally, I thought of demons as tempters as well as devils, no matter what fluff was actually printed. Certainly, succubi and alu-fiends use temptation as a means. Some D&D novels, such as Voyage of the Mourning Dawn and The Gossamer Plain do a good job, IMO, of showing how they can use these means to their ends.

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
And Saern, I've been screaming about demon possession for I don't know how long. It's always annoyed me that THE archetypal power of demons has been so categorically failed in representation.

Better watch what you say. We don't want another Patricia Pulling. :)

Saern, in regards to your spoiler, thank you! I've been wondering how the Glabrezu do what they do, because I've been using the 3.0 SRD mostly, which doesn't mention that ability. But the 3.5 SRD does. I should have checked 3.5 long ago! Heck, I should have made the switch completely long ago - my 3.5 manuals are still waiting patiently on my bookshelf...

As for your other point...

Saern wrote:
The lack of a demon's ability to possess slipped past me for some time when I first came to the game in high school. I remember playing a NWN module and one BBEG died only to be consumed in flame and a demon to emerge. "I've got to have that happen in my campaign!" thought I. To my dismay upon reviewing the MM, there was no way for a demon to possess a mortal. I'm very tempted to write up my own basic mechanic, but I never have the time or will to go through with it all the way. I'll just have to hope PFRPG remedies it, and/or keep using the FC rules otherwise.

Have you considered the demons of Testament—Roleplaying in the Biblical Era RPG (d20)? They MIGHT be a little more like what you're looking for. (And the book is still $2...) I don't have the book on me, but I vaguely recall it emphasizing demons controlling people more.

Then again, I don't think the demon would suddenly appear when the possessed dies. Maybe I'll look it up tonight.


Aaron, I've been thinking that it's partly a matter of what they tempt you to do: the devil, to dominate, corrupt, manipulate, the demon to destroy. I just got Testament and noticed the possessor demon -- will have to give it a good read. And don't worry. I keep my place well-warded.


In fact demons in mythology often were incorporeal, able to change their seeming shape, able to imitate others, provide temptations and so on. Examples include not just biblical ones but also the demons from Babylonian/Sumerian mythology, the evil spirits in Rus mythology and so on.


Yeah. It's actually hard to think of a phenomenon more transcultural than demon possession. Social meals?


Fiend Folio has the possessor template and the tempter template for fiends, iirc.

-Ben.


At the risk of furthing the (delightfully interesting) threadjack, here are some thoughts regarding demonic possession I just brainstormed:

D&D is rife with extraplanar beings crossing into the Material Plane. But what if it were actually hard for a demon to fully manifest themselves? Perhaps this is because of a campaign-specific barrier over the Abyss or some other reason; it doesn't really matter. If it were harder for a demon to physically enter the Material Plane, perhaps they could only send pieces of their essences to move as spirits through the world. Thus, rather than the strange mix of physical brute and ethereal ghost manifestation that the current possession rules present, the possessing demon really is just an intangible and invisible spirit force which tries to take control of people. I would still keep the "roles" discussed in the FC. I believe they are "rider," "ally," "enemy," and "transformer," or thereabouts. Maybe the number of roles a fiend could serve as, or the strength of the roles they take, could depend on the fiend's HD and/or Charisma, so a possessing balor has more effect than a possessing quasit. Perhaps the fiend would have to have a Charisma and/or Wisdom and/or Intelligence score of a certain value to even attempt coming as a spirit into the Material Plane. Thus, no dretches are going to try possessing people.

There would be no unconscious demon body stashed somewhere on the Material Plane, though there may be a trancing demon somewhere on the Abyss. All demons might have this ability without a raise in their CR, because for them to be physically present (i.e., where the party would be fighting them), they would be unable to possess (thus, it's not a combat ability and not something which will make the encounter more challenging; i.e., no CR boost).

Taking a note from Fallen, perhaps there would be a limit to the distance such a spirit fiend could travel should its host die or it is otherwise exorcised. I would say anywhere from 100 to 1,000 feet. Further, it might only be able to remain in that spirit form for 1 round, either finding a host or being sent back to the Abyss. To make that actually matter to the fiend, there may be a limit to how often a demon could send its spirit into the world. Once per month? Once per year?

Finally, another thought which is alternative to that above, but not completely incompatible, is that a possessing/spirit fiend might be what is left after a fiend is slain away from its home plane. It takes a century for the fiend to reform, but during that time some could find the ability to re-enter the Material Plane and vicariously live through the mortals they possess. Perhaps they would face sever punishment for attempting this if they are sent back to the Abyss after and exorcism; or perhaps it resets the timer on the century it takes for them to physically reform. That way, there would be an element of risk and urgency to a possessing fiend, which seems to be an theme of at least modern tales of possession (refering mainly back to Fallen again).

Just some rough thoughts.


The first PFRPG devil is available now in Bastards of Erebus. Virtually no social skills. But he doesn't look the type, anyway. Hot stuff, though!

Grand Lodge

KaeYoss wrote:
The first PFRPG devil is available now in Bastards of Erebus. Virtually no social skills. But he doesn't look the type, anyway. Hot stuff, though!

I don't mind at all if SOME devils have little to no social skills appropriate to their levels. But I think most should. Now granted this is a darn recent observation(as in just the other day realization).

I am SO busting to tell you guys the demon I've developed but don't want to spoil my adventure and am going to make you guys download it. Hey, it's free!

I think, for my own games, I am going to redo fiends in particular and maybe a LOT of outsiders to be more incorporeal. Not all obviously but I think many types would benefit from the option. I wanted to emphasize that it should be an option and not exclusive. :)

Spoiler:

Ok ok, I have to share. I have a demon that when manifested has insects, bugs and nasties crawling over it's host's body, out of its mouth, eyes and ears, and can send infernal swarms at enemies (think of the demon in the streets in Constatine). This particular demon favors possessing young children, "because they are tastier." If you destroy the little child host (imagine your character chopping away at a little girl!), you just disrupt the demon. You have to do ability score damage to actually kill it.


Ah, good. It's no longer a threadjack when the OP joins in.

Krome, that's just na-stay. Aztrucomon (new on these boards) had a pitfiend we killed bleed profusely when he was GMing, and its blood took form as an immense fiendish swarm that we had to flee from. Evil outer bugs always spell trouble.


To answer some previous posters' questions - and maybe generate more ...

Fiend Folio has three prestige classes for outsiders with the Evil subtype: Fiend of Blasphemy (specialising in creating cults), Fiend of Corruption (contracts, etc.), and Fiend of Possession. All three classes have only six levels.

Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss then turns the Fiend of Possession concept into an optional "extra" which can be added along with a CR +2 adjustment to a basic fiend (min. 4 HD and Cha 13). While the section heading reads "Demonic Possession", the language in the section uses the more generic word "fiend" exclusively (as far as I can tell). This leads me to believe that the intent was to allow non-demons (such as devils) access to this ability - regardless of their real world mythological bases. Maybe James Jacobs and/or Erik Mona would care to comment on this?

As previously noted by another poster, the Loumara subtype of demons are all incorporeal. As far as I know, the only Loumaras are listed in the FC 1 (dybbuk and guecubu) and in Dragon 359 (manitou).

Also AFAIK, the shadow demon only appeared in its 3.0 version in the Book of Vile Darkness. A 3.5 version (the Shadow Fiend) appeared in the 3.5 Ravenloft monster book (Ravenloft - Denizens of Dread). There may be other OGL versions, of course!

Grand Lodge

I do have Fiend Folio. Been a while since I knew where it was! I JUST dug trough and found that sucker! The prestige classes are okay, to me. They do the job. They just lack a certain...something. Can't put it any clearer than that. Sorry. :(

I don't have the other Fiend books mentioned. *sigh* anyone know if they are available in PDF form? Due to circumstances I need EVERYTHING in PDF now. Books have become a luxury I won't have space for.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Krome wrote:

I do have Fiend Folio. Been a while since I knew where it was! I JUST dug trough and found that sucker! The prestige classes are okay, to me. They do the job. They just lack a certain...something. Can't put it any clearer than that. Sorry. :(

I don't have the other Fiend books mentioned. *sigh* anyone know if they are available in PDF form? Due to circumstances I need EVERYTHING in PDF now. Books have become a luxury I won't have space for.

PDFs of the older editions are no longer legally available. This caused a lot of fuss when WotC announced the change of policy.

Dark Archive

Krome wrote:

I do have Fiend Folio. Been a while since I knew where it was! I JUST dug trough and found that sucker! The prestige classes are okay, to me. They do the job. They just lack a certain...something. Can't put it any clearer than that. Sorry. :(

I don't have the other Fiend books mentioned. *sigh* anyone know if they are available in PDF form? Due to circumstances I need EVERYTHING in PDF now. Books have become a luxury I won't have space for.

I don't have any of them in PDF form, but you are welcome to stop by my house and use my library any time you are in town. Also, if you have any questions, just e-mail me and I will do the research to try and find your answer.

Grand Lodge

Gonna thread-jack my own thread!

I can legally buy a book from someone but can you buy a PDF? They are no longer available to buy in the normal venues, but what if someone doesn't really want the PDF (book) any more. Can they sell the PDF?

Kikal13, did you get the massive email I sent the other day?

Dark Archive

Yup, I did. I've been going through it (albeit slowly) and have not yet had time to write up a full commentary. So far it seems to be really solid and would make for a seriously fun adventure path!

Grand Lodge

kikai13 wrote:
Yup, I did. I've been going through it (albeit slowly) and have not yet had time to write up a full commentary. So far it seems to be really solid and would make for a seriously fun adventure path!

Thanks, that is the goal :)


Krome wrote:


I can legally buy a book from someone but can you buy a PDF? They are no longer available to buy in the normal venues, but what if someone doesn't really want the PDF (book) any more. Can they sell the PDF?

/QUOTE]

I think this one is tricky. You basically buy the rights to this PDF. If you sold the right, you no longer had that right, and would need to delete/destroy the copies you have.

And there's the technical side of things: How to sell that right? I assume you talk about PDFs from Paizo or RPGnow. Those pages would have to set up their pages to transfer those rights.

Grand Lodge

KaeYoss wrote:
Krome wrote:


I can legally buy a book from someone but can you buy a PDF? They are no longer available to buy in the normal venues, but what if someone doesn't really want the PDF (book) any more. Can they sell the PDF?

/QUOTE]

I think this one is tricky. You basically buy the rights to this PDF. If you sold the right, you no longer had that right, and would need to delete/destroy the copies you have.

And there's the technical side of things: How to sell that right? I assume you talk about PDFs from Paizo or RPGnow. Those pages would have to set up their pages to transfer those rights.

*sigh* yeah. SO while PROBABLY technically possible, PRACTICALLY impossible... *sigh*


I suppose if the other person were to entirely delete the PDF from their computer...


You forgot their charisma scores, those would have at least a slight impact on how well they do those tasks too.

Grand Lodge

Abraham spalding wrote:
You forgot their charisma scores, those would have at least a slight impact on how well they do those tasks too.

Oh yeah very true! Time to go look at the Charisma of the Devil and see if they are decent.

Contributor

Honestly, you need to have some incompetent devils out there. Otherwise, you don't get things like this, Child Ballad #278:

The Devil and the Farmer's Wife

I know an old couple that lived near Hell
If they're not dead, they're living there still
The Devil, he came to the man at the plough
I've come for one of your family now

Whack full day ful lickety fall the dall day

Which of my family do you like best
Your scolding old wife, its she I like best
Take her away with all of my heart
I hope the two of you never need part

The Devil, he hoisted her up on his back
No peddler was ever so proud of his pack
He's carried along till he came to Hell's wall
She's out with her boot and she's flattened it all

Some Devils came down to put her in a sack
She's out with her boot and she's broken their backs
The Devils cried out from up on the wall
Take her home daddy, she'll murder us all

He carried her home in a tenth of the time
Take her back farmer, I'm changing my mind
What will you give me for taking her in
I offer no more than the wages of sin

If you want to be rid of this scolding old hen
You'll never bedevil my family again
The Devil did cry, the Devil did howl
But he never returned to the man at the plough

And then there's the extra line I've heard in some performances: "Well I've been a devil for all of my life--but I never knew Hell till I met with your wife!"

We need devils who can be beaten by 1st level commoners or outfoxed by even mildly clever priests and wizards. Otherwise, the stories don't work.

The farmer's wife who starts to make a habit of beating devils will gain some class levels, so that when word of her works its way up the chain of command ("I ask you to bring me souls and you bring me worn-out boot-heels! What in the Nine Hells is wrong with you?"), she'll start having to deal with higher level devils.

Grand Lodge

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:

Honestly, you need to have some incompetent devils out there. ...

We need devils who can be beaten by 1st level commoners or outfoxed by even mildly clever priests and wizards. Otherwise, the stories don't work.

The farmer's wife who starts to make a habit of beating devils will gain some class levels, so that when word of her works its way up the chain of command ("I ask you to bring me souls and you bring me worn-out boot-heels! What in the Nine Hells is wrong with you?"), she'll start having to deal with higher level devils.

Well I guess you are VERY right about that. I suppose that would fall to the Lemures lol

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