I really need to pick this series up again.
'Cause it's so user-friendly ?
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The reaction videos have been crazy so far.
Though I do hope Arya ends up shanking Frey at some point cause that would be lovelyMy wishlist of "People for Arya to Shank" is into the dozens now.
M-M-M-MULTI-KILL-L-L-L
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My wishlist of "People for Arya to Shank" is into the dozens now.
Ditto. :)
What does it say about me that I'm rooting for a ten year old girl to hurry up and lose what's left of her childhood and turn into a stone cold assassin?
Martin could perhaps make some decent coin by opening up a contest where fans can submit money to put in pools, and the hated character who ends up with the most money in their pool gets a gruesome death in the next book...
Still, the show has also had some epic moments of comeuppance, when bad things happen to bad people (and we cheer), such as Dany's brother getting his 'crown of gold, terrible to behold.'
The wolf-killings seem clever, from an emotional trigger point of view. As someone in the modern world, it's pretty darn easy for me to shrug off a scene of some medieval dude getting his head cut off or some medieval lady getting her throat cut open. I don't live in Headchopoffistan, so that's not really something that's going to reach me personally. (And, knock on wood, people getting decapitated is never going to be part of my life experience...)
But we've probably all lost pets before, to circumstances that may have felt cruel or unfair, and that reaches past the silly medieval fantasy violence to hit us where we live.
It was a well-done episode, definitely.
I've lost track of what we spoiler tag around here, so I'll just tag everything. :p
I think my only real complaint about how the show portrays the Red Wedding, was that it didn't (imho) quite manage to portray just how unthinkable it is for a host to violate guest rights the way the Freys do at the wedding. This is A Really Big Deal.
The show has made references to the guest right traditions, but I think it's been pretty subtle if you didn't know what to look for (and as someone who's read the book several times, I was specifically looking for anything building up to the Red Wedding).
Major one!
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For those of you who have not read the book, who do you think masterminded/orchestrated the alliances behind the 'Red Wedding'?
Also, while it is quite easy to loath Jeoffry, I wonder if everyone watching the series will soon have that same hatred turned towards
Quite obvious but spoilered none the less.
For those of you who have not read the book, who do you think orchestrated the 'Red Wedding'?
It was a well-done episode, definitely.
I've lost track of what we spoiler tag around here, so I'll just tag everything. :p
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A subject of discussion which I actually think is quite intriguing and one that I want to share with you, it grew in popularity during the fourth book BUT IS NOT A SPOILER because there is still no real indication that George R R Martin will take this route but like I said is intriguing - I will still spoiler it for two reasons, one this theory came after book four, even though there were no direct hints regarding the theory, second, the character in question obviously is alive by the end of book four - I really think it's worth you taking a look, just because it is a brilliant speculation.
Is he the child of Rhaegar Targaryan (Dani's older brother) and Iyanna Stark (Ned's sister)?
When Ned got to his sister's death bed she was in blood and she asks him to promise her something. She gave birth and demanded not to tell Robert who's child it was to spare the chid's life.
This all makes sense when you look at the back stories that occurred during Robert's Rebellion and consider the Ned is too much of a stick in the mud to cheat on his wife.
I myself do NOT subscribe to this point of view, but fascinating to discuss among the readership.
They heavily imply this in the latest book. But as far as Targaryens go, to quote Yoda "There is another..."
When that is revealed, you realize just how bad ass Varys really is.
A subject of discussion which I actually think is quite intriguing and one that I want to share with you, it grew in popularity during the fourth book BUT IS NOT A SPOILER because there is still no real indication that George R R Martin will take this route but like I said is intriguing - I will still spoiler it for two reasons, one this theory came after book four, even though there were no direct hints regarding the theory, second, the character in question obviously is alive by the end of book four - I really think it's worth you taking a look, just because it is a brilliant speculation.
** spoiler omitted **
Its a theory that was in existence way way before the forth book and there are plenty of hints. Have a look at one of the book fan sites for a complete list.
A subject of discussion which I actually think is quite intriguing and one that I want to share with you, it grew in popularity during the fourth book BUT IS NOT A SPOILER because there is still no real indication that George R R Martin will take this route but like I said is intriguing - I will still spoiler it for two reasons, one this theory came after book four, even though there were no direct hints regarding the theory, second, the character in question obviously is alive by the end of book four - I really think it's worth you taking a look, just because it is a brilliant speculation.
** spoiler omitted **
Interestingly, that was my pet theory before I realized that it was a 'thing' on the Internet. I'm still not convinced that's the direction GRRM is taking things, but it's certainly an interesting thought.
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It was a well-done episode, definitely.
I've lost track of what we spoiler tag around here, so I'll just tag everything. :p
** spoiler omitted **
First time posting here, but I have been following this thread.
The guest right is seen being invoked in the episode when they are shown eating bread and salt, as those are the traditional provisions. The aftermath of its violation by the Freys will hopefully be seen not only in the season finale, but in the episodes to come.
The Red Wedding brings an end to the northern rebellion, with Roose Bolton being made the Warden of the North for his aid in it, and several great benefits befell House Frey, including the lordship of Riverrun. However, it also destroys what honor is left in the house, as they violated one of the oldest and most sacred traditions of old, the guest right. This leads to antipathy and disgust towards the house by most Westerosi, including their own allies. Additionally, though no other house has dreamed to repeat the breaking of the right, it has left a more lasting stain on the ancient guest right, with safety and security in a strange castle no longer being considered guaranteed.
The Iron Throne also gains a number of valuable prisoners which help resolve hostilities around Westeros. With Edmure Tully captive, Jaime Lannister is able to negotiate a peaceful resolution to the Siege of Riverrun. Black Walder Frey threatens to hang Patrek Mallister outside his father's castle which results in Seagard's surrender. The Greatjon and Marq Piper are held as hostages to ensure their houses' loyalty; Hother Umber allies with the newly appointed Warden of the North, Roose Bolton, and Lord Clement Piper is forced to help besiege Riverrun.
Since the Red Wedding, several of Lord Walder Frey's kin have been killed by the Brotherhood Without Banners, northmen such as Wyman Manderly or the "Ghost of Winterfell" in retaliation. Perhaps ironically, more Freys have died due to the repercussions of the Red Wedding than during the War of the Five Kings.
I'm looking forward to seeing this implemented. What I'm more curious about is the Frey spin on what occurred.
Jared Frey tells Lord Wyman Manderly that, contrary to the true story, the Red Wedding was actually Robb Stark’s work. According to the Frey fictionalization, ]Robb changed into a wolf-man beast before the eyes of the Freys and tore out the throat of Jinglebell, a harmless simpleton. Furthermore, he allegedly would have slain Lord Walder Frey if Ser Wendel Manderly had not put himself in the way. According to this version of the event, the other northmen also turned into wolves to join Robb's attack.
I'm thinking there will be some truth to the bolded part as the series progresses, as there seems to be
Also remember that this was the second time guest right was violated. The first was immortalized in the song of the Rat Cook:
According to legend, the man who would later be known as the Rat Cook was a simple cook at the Nightfort. He became infamous when he served an Andal King a pie that was made of bacon and, unknown to the King, the King's own son. The Cook killed the King's son, a Prince, in revenge for a wrong the King supposedly did to him. The King was unaware of this however as he ate and praised the taste and asked for a second piece. The gods, angry because the cook had slain a guest beneath his roof, cursed the cook and transformed him into a massive rat who was doomed to be unable to eat anything but his own young.
According to the story, he is an enormous white rat and all the other rats that inhabit the Nightfort are his descendants
The one thing that nobody has brought up that occurred during the Red Wedding on the show is that
Robb's wife wasn't present at the wedding in the book, but she and the unborn child are the first casualties in the episode.
Man I kind of avoided the internet for fear of the reactions to the red wedding in the tv show. I am really hoping for some fun youtube videos out of the deal. I had originally stopped watching the series after bran first was thrown from the tower because all the emotion I had from the books was even more visceral when actually seeing it instead of imagining it.
I have recently resumed watching because my girlfriend loves the series, and man was it hard to watch the red wedding.
Also does anyone else think that George R R Martin hates love? Terrible things happen to everyone and everything in this story where love is involved. I know in the 'real world' terrible things happen all the time, but hot damn does love in a song of ice and fire seem like a sure fire way to torment and death.
Yup. I wonder which of the major characters will survive into the last book (I'm assuming few survive the final page).
I'm betting Arya Stark, Jon Snow, Daenyres Targaryen, Jaime Lannister and Tyrion Lannister make it at least that far. Since Brienne of Tarth is my favorite character, I'm assuming that she dies horribly...
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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** spoiler omitted **
For those of you who have not read the book, who do you think orchestrated the 'Red Wedding'?
Television fueled speculation/observation"
There's definitely some type of larger plot/conspiracy in the background, stretching back to Season 1, and I've been impressed at how it hasn't really been directly addressed in character. The biggest loose end is who sent the assassin to finish off Bran with Tyrion's knife (which was one of the sparks that really set off the Lannister/Stark war). Signs point back to Littlefinger, but there still seems to be more going on.
Then there's the conversation Arya overheard back in Season 1 while chasing a cat. I'm tempted to go back and watch that scene again to see if it makes more sense now.
Finally, I'll bet dollars for donuts that someone convinced Joeffry to kill Ned and really set off the Lannister/Stark war. Littlefinger is the obvious culprit, and I suspect he's in on the conspiracy, but his involvement seems like the ice above the water...
Yup. I wonder which of the major characters will survive into the last book (I'm assuming few survive the final page).
I'm betting Arya Stark, Jon Snow, Daenyres Targaryen, Jaime Lannister and Tyrion Lannister make it at least that far. Since Brienne of Tarth is my favorite character, I'm assuming that she dies horribly...
Stop liking characters! GRRM can sense it when you do. Hide your emotions from him!
Major one!
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Y'know, I'm going to be talking around corners now (no spoilers!), but given GRRM's early work: Fevre Dream, Armageddon Rag, and last but not least "The Monkey Treatment," it's funny how many of his completed works end on a very upbeat note, despite everything you've read up until the last sentence.
FEVRE DREAM doesn't.
THE ARMAGEDDON RAG doesn't really:
DYING OF THE LIGHT's ending is pretty emotionally wrenching. Stories like 'Meathouse Man' are the same. WINDHAVEN has a pretty happy ending, but that's the only one I'd say was really such.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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GregH and all those who want to discuss the show without risking book-based spoilers - I've created another thread with the hopes of limiting the discussion to the television show.
Game of Thrones for the Illiterate (aka, no book spoilers or information please)
A subject of discussion which I actually think is quite intriguing and one that I want to share with you, it grew in popularity during the fourth book BUT IS NOT A SPOILER because there is still no real indication that George R R Martin will take this route but like I said is intriguing - I will still spoiler it for two reasons, one this theory came after book four, even though there were no direct hints regarding the theory, second, the character in question obviously is alive by the end of book four - I really think it's worth you taking a look, just because it is a brilliant speculation.
** spoiler omitted **
I think the bigger question is if Tyrion is also a Targ. ^^
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Stark blood is strong.
I wanted to post that.
=(
Anyone else like the Hound? I truly feel GRRM seems to have started developing this great backstory for him but without spoiling didnt give him enough air time through the first 3 books and im wondering if HBO will develop him more than Martin did. Same goes with Rickon and his wolf.
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Unlike many other despicable sorts, the Hound often feels like a victim of the world he grew up in, as cold-blooded and ruthless as many others (including his brother), but not because he gets off on it, just because that's the way the world made him. Perhaps his burns (and how he got them) makes him feel more like an underdog, or villain-by-necessity, than someone like Joffrey.
Plus I can't completely hate anyone whose helped save Arya, whether she wants him dead or not.
Rickon is just a cipher to me. Every time I see him on screen, I'm like, 'Oh yeah, Bran has a brother.'
Plus he's got brown hair this season (wasn't he a redhead last season?), in a world where it's kind of a major plot point that you can recognize Lannisters by their blondeness and Baratheons by their black hair, and as part of a brood composed of black haired and red haired kids, which makes me wonder whose cream went into his coffee.
I kind of like how the Stark kids name choices for their wolves says stuff about them. Sansa names hers 'Lady' and Rickon goes for 'Shaggydog.'
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Damn Trondor, way to spoil all the characters who _won't_ die in the next few seasons of the show. How about some spoiler tags, eh?
I really hope you're kidding. You're 17 pages in on a discussion of a widely read book series. If you don't want spoilers, don't read such discussions. It's ridiculous to put the burden on others for you not to learn something.
By the way, the ship sinks in Titanic, the One Ring gets destroyed in the Lord of the Rings and Jesus comes back from the dead in the Bible.
Where do you go to see how many seasons an actor is signed up for?
I really hope you're kidding. You're 17 pages in on a discussion of a widely read book series. If you don't want spoilers, don't read such discussions. It's ridiculous to put the burden on others for you not to learn something.
I really hope you're kidding. As the thread title points out this is a discussion of HBO's Game of Thrones, not George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series.
I don't think its too much to ask, or expect people to spoiler tag anythig pointing out differences between book and show or information that could spoil future episodes of the show. There is a whole other message board section for discussing books where book readers can discuss theories or events from the books without having to worry about ruining the experience for those viewing the show.
Edit: Oh, and THANKS ALOT for ruining Titanic, LOTR, and the New Testament for me ;)
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Anyone else like the Hound? I truly feel GRRM seems to have started developing this great backstory for him but without spoiling didnt give him enough air time through the first 3 books and im wondering if HBO will develop him more than Martin did. Same goes with Rickon and his wolf.
major spoilers for up to book 4:
This seems like the right time to point out that Sandor is probably alive, though that fact could easily be overlooked. In "Feast for Crows", there's an episode where Brienne visits a monastery standing on an island in the middle of a lake. As she speaks to the guy who runs the place she notices a hulking gravedigger, and the monk explains that he has found a broken man who only wanted rest and saved his life by bringing him to the monastery. Given the tragic way that Sandor was looking for a place to settle in during the days before he dies, it seems very likely that he could be the gravedigger.
However, I truly believe his part in the grander scheme of things is done (and for his sake, I hope so). His brother is dead, everyone assumes he's dead or drunk in some ditch, maybe even across the narrow sea. Can't see a motivation for him to leave the sanctuary.
Yeah, Sansa. I almost skipped her chapters, but HBO made her relatable too, by changing her from a spoiled brat with no brain, to a spoiled brat with some brains.
I must be watching a different series than you are. I haven't read the books, but my impression of HBO-Sansa went very quickly from "hopelessly naive" to "spineless and willfully stupid."
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Damn Trondor, way to spoil all the characters who _won't_ die in the next few seasons of the show. How about some spoiler tags, eh?I really hope you're kidding. You're 17 pages in on a discussion of a widely read book series. If you don't want spoilers, don't read such discussions. It's ridiculous to put the burden on others for you not to learn something.
By the way, the ship sinks in Titanic, the One Ring gets destroyed in the Lord of the Rings and Jesus comes back from the dead in the Bible.
I'd say Sebastion's assumption of spoiler safety was fair, since this is in the Television section. Basic courtesy and all.
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Yeah, Sansa. I almost skipped her chapters, but HBO made her relatable too, by changing her from a spoiled brat with no brain, to a spoiled brat with some brains.I must be watching a different series than you are. I haven't read the books, but my impression of HBO-Sansa went very quickly from "hopelessly naive" to "spineless and willfully stupid."
She's two or three times worse in the books. I couldn't muster a moment of pity for her. In the show i can. And i think that she is doing pretty well considering her situation.
@Marc
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I must be watching a different series than you are. I haven't read the books, but my impression of HBO-Sansa went very quickly from "hopelessly naive" to "spineless and willfully stupid."
I still hold a grudge over her lying about Arya's kerfluffle with Joffrey, but Sansa has one thing over Arya, she's learned to not say the first thing that pops out of her mouth.
I love Arya to death, but she repeatedly has threatened to kill a dude who she *knows* will run a kid down with his horse if they annoy him by trying to run away. Sansa has to be repeatedly asked by Margary and her grandmother to speak freely about Joffrey, having at least absorbed the lesson that Arya, and her father, never learned, to not tell an enemy to their face that you are out to get them. (And she withholds information and trust from the unctuous Littlefinger as well, someone who *both* of her parents suffered for trusting.)
The fact that she was willing and ready to toss Joffrey off that bridge when he was showing off her father's head makes me think she's got the right ideas, just lacks for good opportunities. I think Joffrey had been wanting her to say or do anything for quite some time, so that he had an excuse. She was smart enough to keep her head down and not give him that excuse, which is why *her* head isn't on a spike.
When one is a mouse surrounded by snakes, a certain amount of shutting up and not drawing attention to one's tasty self is probably wise.
I don't much like Sansa (and much prefer Arya), but I get her. I can't criticize Eddard and Catelyn for making bone-headed too-proud blunders, without recognizing that Sansa may be the only Stark we've seen who has lived to learn that 'Stark honor' doesn't do jack or squat to stop a blade to the neck.
When one is a mouse surrounded by snakes, a certain amount of shutting up and not drawing attention to one's tasty self is probably wise.
Wiser still not to be a mouse in the first place, so that you don't get surrounded by snakes. And even when Sansa is keeping quiet it's fairly obvious to anyone that she's doing so (or saying what's expected) out of fear rather than any skill in diplomacy, which means she loses much of the benefit she might otherwise gain.
But you do make some good points.
I can't seperate the Sansa in the books that actually tells Cirsei her father's plot to hold the throne in regency for Robert's bastard, that sets off Ned's death to begin with. But I feel more pity for her than anything. She is still just a kid.
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I'm really getting into the whole Daenerys Targaryen gathering her ex-slave army plot line. For those that know the books, please tell me Daenerys doesn't get killed or anything bad! (obviously, spoiler the answer!)
I have no info, but I have an opinion....
I feel like she is super-awesome and love when her part of the show comes up but she is making too many snap decisions that could instantly be wrong and get her killed IMO. Who let's armed, barely known people just walk up to them when they are looking to be Queen? She is also being sort of dickish to her most loyal servants and keeping them out of the loop....that could breed discontent from them. I love her but I see her making lots of easily fatal decisions and feel it's just a matter of time.|
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I feel like she is super-awesome and love when her part of the show comes up but she is making too many snap decisions that could instantly be wrong and get her killed IMO.
I get the same impression. She seems to have gotten the impression that everything she decides is just automatically going to work because, 'Danaerys Stormborn! Mother of Dragons! Who believes in her own PR hyperbole!,' and, so far, she's being rewarded for that notion, which is just encouraging her to keep going with her gut.
She seems to have totally forgotten how well 'going with her gut' worked back with Drogo and the witch-woman. In that respect, she seems to be as potentially out of touch with reality as her brother was.
She's relying on the Plot Armor pretty hard, and one of these days the plot isn't going to be going in the exact same direction she is...
It is true that some degree of that insane level of confidence and sense of self-predestination / infallibility she's showing is probably the reason she's succeeded, because she's managed to sell *everyone else* in her ability to live up to that inflated marketing hype.
It's hard to tell crazy overconfident dragon-lady to exercise more caution when she *keeps winning.*
Ser what's-his-name, who'se been making googly eyes at her pretty much from the start, doesn't seem like he's going to continue being a doormat forever. Every time she interacts with another man (like this new mercenary dude), he gets all territorial and a little bit b&#+@y, and she puts up with it, but he either needs to move the hell on or he's going to get presumptuous and possessive one time too many and get eaten by a dragon.