Here is what worked for us...Shadows have rules. In general, they do not enter homes, and they avoid magical light. This did a few things:
The legally required shrine to Asmodeus now seemed valuable, even if you didn't like it. The clergy were happy to claim that faith banished shadows. (not true, but hard to disprove)
We had a number of amusing encounters with players huddled around a magical light, with shadows glaring in from the edge. Set the tone wonderfully. Made the shadow mastiffs nasty, since panicked characters drop what they are holding.
When we get to enemies with dispel magic, they will really freak out...(soon)
@rkraus2: some good thoughts, thanks. I like the idea how the clergy uses the shadows as a way to promote their faith even though there is no clear link, you can draw some powerful parallels to our modern society here.
My real problem is not that I cannot find of creative ways to incorporate the shadows into a game. My problem is that I cannot create a credible picture of a city that is haunted with shadows every night. Who would want to live under such circumstances? For 30 years straight? In my view, people would have this city years ago.
So, make it clear that the shadows make quick work of anything outside the city walls. You could put something even nastier out there, like a shadow demon.
It isn't that people want to stay, it's that they can't leave...
Plenty of historical parallel for that as well
My real problem is not that I cannot find of creative ways to incorporate the shadows into a game. My problem is that I cannot create a credible picture of a city that is haunted with shadows every night. Who would want to live under such circumstances? For 30 years straight? In my view, people would have this city years ago.
There's only reports of lethal attacks about once per week. Many real-world cities feature murders at that same rate, and people still live in them. People can get used to mostly everything, as long as it doesn't negatively affect them directly on a regular basis (which it won't in Westcrown unless you break the curfew).
Why do people live in areas with earthquakes, hurricanes, terrorism, ...?
People get used to dangers and adapt. Remember the spare bedrolls for late visitors. Good hard-working citizen stay at home anyway and rest from the days labour. The night is the time for lazy folk, thieves and other criminals. Normal people may think, that the city is safer because of the shadow beasts. In post war germany some people used to say, streets were safer in the Third Reich.
Most people don't have much choice today to move to other cities it was worse in former times. There might be laws against moving, in a society like Cheliax it's plausible. In europe guild laws prevented artisans from moving to another town, because they had to be a member of the local guild to be allowed to open a shop.
And last but not least: It is their home and you don't leave home so easily.
My real problem is not that I cannot find of creative ways to incorporate the shadows into a game. My problem is that I cannot create a credible picture of a city that is haunted with shadows every night. Who would want to live under such circumstances? For 30 years straight? In my view, people would have this city years ago.
This is a game world where vampires exist, mind you -- regular shadowbeasts are probably a welcome change. ;-)
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My real problem is not that I cannot find of creative ways to incorporate the shadows into a game. My problem is that I cannot create a credible picture of a city that is haunted with shadows every night. Who would want to live under such circumstances? For 30 years straight? In my view, people would have this city years ago.
In our modern society, people have an incredible amount of mobility, and (if they can afford it) can move their entire lives and start over.
In a fantasy society without the internet and cars and restaurants and craigslist, it's a much more difficult thing to transport your self, family, and business to a city 20 miles away, let alone 100 miles away. Assuming that they're legally allowed to move at all....
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My real problem is not that I cannot find of creative ways to incorporate the shadows into a game. My problem is that I cannot create a credible picture of a city that is haunted with shadows every night. Who would want to live under such circumstances? For 30 years straight? In my view, people would have this city years ago.In our modern society, people have an incredible amount of mobility, and (if they can afford it) can move their entire lives and start over.
In a fantasy society without the internet and cars and restaurants and craigslist, it's a much more difficult thing to transport your self, family, and business to a city 20 miles away, let alone 100 miles away. Assuming that they're legally allowed to move at all....
Also, most of you guys come from U.S, where folks swap jobs across the country and are prepared to move across the continent taking their entire life with them when an opportunity appears.
Over here in the Old World, moving 100km is a life-shattering decision not taken lightly, and uprooting your whole family is something many people are just not capable of psychically, if not technically.
It gets even more severe in the Eastern Europe, where cragislist doesn't exist, Internets are some newfangled bizzare invention and yeah, cars, well that we have.
... Over here in the Old World, moving 100km is a life-shattering decision not taken lightly, and uprooting your whole family is something many people are just not capable of psychically, if not technically ...
I'll second that opinion about the "Old World". There are a lot of people all over the world who can't move from A to B snapping family cords. They are tightly bound to their roots morally, technically, financially, and/or legaly. Just take a look into some history books [please note that this suggestion is not intended as criticism but as a source of facts, ideas, and emotions].
And don't forget, that walls work both ways. Yes, you can keep invaders out. But you can also keep the population in.
See Berlin Wall for details...
Thank you all for your comments.
... Over here in the Old World, moving 100km is a life-shattering decision not taken lightly, and uprooting your whole family is something many people are just not capable of psychically, if not technically ...I'll second that opinion about the "Old World". There are a lot of people all over the world who can't move from A to B snapping family cords. They are tightly bound to their roots morally, technically, financially, and/or legaly. Just take a look into some history books [please note that this suggestion is not intended as criticism but as a source of facts, ideas, and emotions].
As a hobby historian, I cannot second that opinion. Sure technological advacment enable some people to travel further in shorter time. But history has seen many a mass exodus. Before strict national borders and immigration laws were established in Europe (mostly in the 19th century), mobility was quite high. the similarities of cultures and languages in europe is a result of this.
The argument that today's cities are also infested with crime was not convincing when I thought about it before asking this message board. but it seems that you guys accept this as legit, so maybe going in this direction might help to make it believable
anyway, once again thanks to all
A tip for other GM's: While my party was on their way over to the bastards' lair, I had town criers and stagehands put up a lot of posters at the limehouse and at public places all over town. The posters were requesting anyone with any acting or adventuring experience to come to the limehouse, as described in part 2 of the adventure path.
I really think this is a great idea. I am trying to do this as much as possible in campaigns to create the idea that a world is functioning.
One small disadvantage of this great adventure path is that it was written in monthly sequels. It sometimes seems that there is a certain separation between the parts of the AP. Like the map in part one not showing all the important places that the group will see during the adventure. I think little things like what increddibelly mentioned above can greatly improve the overal experience.
So: does anyone have any other ideas how to subtly put in aspects of Westcrown that will be more important in later parts of the Adventure path?
@rkraus2: some good thoughts, thanks. I like the idea how the clergy uses the shadows as a way to promote their faith even though there is no clear link, you can draw some powerful parallels to our modern society here.
My real problem is not that I cannot find of creative ways to incorporate the shadows into a game. My problem is that I cannot create a credible picture of a city that is haunted with shadows every night. Who would want to live under such circumstances? For 30 years straight? In my view, people would have this city years ago.
Some of my thoughts: You don't leave when it's home, and it's been your family's home for generations or even centuries. Leaving the city is an enormous change. And where would they go? If you're a commoner, you may not be able to afford boat fare or even coach fare, and how far is the nearest town? How many nearby towns would it take to hold the enormous populace of Westcrown? If you were raised in the city, would you know how to survive in the wilderness? Aren't there even more monsters out there? At least the dottari are trying to deal with the shadowgarms; out in the wilderness, you're on your own. At least in town, there is actually a safe place to be at night. If the monsters were tearing up the city and destroying food & other resources, the people would have to leave. As it is, they're merely being kept in fear. People get used to that more easily than they do to the idea of leaving home (with its known problems) for the unknown.
When are the Pcs supposed to be what level, I can not find if they aresupposed to be lvl 2 or 3 before assulting the church
they are supposed to be lvl 2. Page 7, Advancement Track, last sentence.
When Chammady has been using the Council's money to fund the bandits, this is still a unified Council, right? The usurpers don't really come into play until chapter four, so I'm thinking that at this point Vassindio is wholeheartedly supporting whatever Chammady is pushing.
Yes, that was my understanding of the situation as well. The council usurpers don't make any open movements until later in the campaign.
My PCs declined to join the Children of Westcrown, and Arael was not rescued. This leaves Janiven in charge, and she's too idealistic for her own good. I don't have any problem coming up with other ways of involving the PCs in the plot; I'm just wondering what Janiven will do next.
After some heavy drinking at what's left of Vizio's Tavern, I think she'll try to recruit again. This time, however, she won't be so lucky. I think there must be another band of adventurers wandering through town, and they'll be only too happy to take advantage of the Children of Westcrown.
I could just make some random adventurers, but do any of you have any thoughts a little more nasty than that?
Doppleganger something (Da Boss).
Wererat gnome fighter/barbarian.
2 NE clerics of Pharasma/some other diety with the Repose domain. That 1st level domain ability when used in tandem is NASTY.
Or...maybe Bluehood is actually not all that interested in being altruistic. Maybe she is creating some magic for good or ill that needs this dull black stone. Perhaps she is just playing the same game as all the nobles in Cheliax, and getting rebels to give her the stones she needs to make her play for power is both safer for her and has a certain irony that she enjoys...
Personally, I like the last option. Although I haven't seen the rest of the adventure path, I might well make Bluehood into something of a patron of the party, only to have her later turn out to be not much better than all the other power-hungry nobles of Cheliax. Not evil, perhaps, but certainly using the PCs towards her own ends and agenda. It would certainly increase the players paranoia about who can be trusted in Westcrown.
Did you do anything with this? I was thinking about making her a young bronze dragon who wasn't very good at coming up with ways to help, but I might like your solution better.
According to Mr. Jacobs, there's a Leroung living in a tower in Rego Laina, and there aren't any Leroungs listed in the noble houses on p. 52 so maybe Bluehood has a reason she's hanging out there.
Is there any canon about the taverns on Regicona, or are we on our own?
Doppleganger something (Da Boss).
Wererat gnome fighter/barbarian.
2 NE clerics of Pharasma/some other diety with the Repose domain. That 1st level domain ability when used in tandem is NASTY.
I'd been thinking in terms of story, but that combo sounds delicious. Thanks for the idea!
(I was going to edit my post to add this, but it seems I can't.)
I found the name of the tavern across from where Khandescus Leroung lives: The Hobbled Goat. “The tavern’s not the finest the city has to offer,” said Khandescus, “but it’s close enough that I will be able to reach you quickly." The Hobbled Goat is unremarkable, with its scarred wooden walls, dirty floors, and filthy windows that look out onto the street. The tavern keeper is a squat and powerful man named Lenguel (LE human male war 4), who used to work as a city guard; he doesn’t take kindly to brawls in his establishment. Khandescus’s tower is visible from one of the taproom’s windows. (Beyond the Vault of Souls, p. 5)
Presumably the Hobbled Goat is the tavern that Bluehood meant.
I made Lady Bluehood an unwitting agent of the Council of Thieves, who wanted to know the people who were powerful enough to stand up to their beasties and either recruit them or have them 'taken care of.' I made a great-niece of Oberigo to play the part in case she was tracked down - which she eventually was. It was nice to have that in my pocket when the time came. And she read to all SM checks as truthful, because she was simply passing along her uncle's money to do-gooders. She was unaware of his CoT connections.
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I'm using the excellent Children of Westcrown Guide and had an idea inspired by the Skulls and Shackles game I'm currently a PC in.
I'm spreading out the encounters over the course of several weeks, so in between the rescue of Arael and the Bastards, they will have to earn a living and "lay low" as the book suggests. To give some structure to this, I've created additional actions that might be taken, the DC for each and the benefit.
I wanted to share them here for refinement, so let me know what suggestions/tweaks you would make and if there are any you would add.
Each week, make a DC10 Profession or Craft check to determine that week's wage. You earn half the DC in gold. Should you fail by 5 or more, you may become in danger of losing your job/creditability as a craftsman. We will discuss the implications should this happen. You cannot take 10 on these checks.
Additionally, you can take up to two additional actions during each week. Each action may be taken multiple times. You cannot take 10 on these checks.
Gather Information - DC20 Knowledge: Local, Diplomacy or Intimidation Check - This will help you uncover opportunities for furthering the fame of the Children of Westcrown. (This will help PCs find the additional adventure hooks listed.)
Work Thoroughly - Earn an additional 5GP per each time taken and automatically succeed at your job. If this is taken more than once per week, you will be fatigued until the start of the next week.
Interact - DC15 Sense Motive or Diplomacy Check - Spend time with the fellow Children of Westcrown. As you get to know them, you will uncover their motivations and what skills they might contribute to the cause.
Mentor - DC15 Ability Check - You spend extra time training one of the Children of Westcrown, building up their experience and helping them prepare for what may come.
Those weekly activities sound great. I may steal those.
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GM Idyll, I love the concept and most of the implementation, but I think your DCs are a good deal too high. With the exception of the Profession/Craft check I'd drop the others by 3 to 5 each, the 15s down to 12s and the 20 down to a 15. The tasks involved don't seem nearly complex enough to justify anything higher.
Isshia
Hi guys,
I am running Bastards of Erebus at the moment for my group, a tiefling witch, half elf rogue, human ranger (urban ranger archetype), and human monk (monk of the empty hand archetype). A 5th person will be entering the group with this session coming up, she's not sure what she wants to play as yet though.
They're just about to go rescue Arael - the group of 4 PCs who started have just hit 2nd level (2018 xp) after a harrowing night in the sewers, followed by having to go in a second time to rescue members of the rebel group who were kidnapped during a skirmish with some diseased sewer goblins (the 4 NPCs were the ones that matched the then PCs classes, with the potential wizard being the match for the tiefling witch).
I'm planning on running all three of the side-quests for the group at some point before they go after the Temple of Bastards - my question is should the PCs be at level 3 before they hit the Temple, or should they be not quite level 3 at that point?
With 5 players they should be alright at level 2 for the final encounters but you will have to gauge your party's abilities. The summary on p.7 of the book suggests the party (of 4) should be level 3 by adventures end. I ran 5 PCs through it and am following the recommended guides with a few adjustments here and there. I know they did not have any issues with the final encounters at level 2.
Ok, great, thanks for that scarykavu :)
Due to a very late start because of RL interference, I only ran the rescue of Arael on Friday night, with relatively few hassles. Had 5 PCs at the time, with the new PC being an elf cleric of Milani - very appropriate for the Council of Thieves AP I think. Beefed up the number of Hellknight Armigers by 2 to compensate for the extra body in the party, mostly to gauge how much to boost further encounters by for the future.
Sadly almost took out 2 of the PCs in the encounter due to good rolls on my part and poor tactics on the PCs part, but the cleric managed to get them both back into the game after a couple of rounds of trying to 5-foot step into a good position to not heal all the enemies as well.
Next fortnight will be some of the side quests and a little bit of foreshadowing the Bastards of Erebus group.
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My group just finished this part of the campaign. I would say that the setting of the campaign needs to be as dark and grim as possible. You are in a land full of devil worshipers and evil people. Tieflings are treated like cockroaches, and Halflings are nothing more than possessions. The more evil and over the top I made the setting, the more the players tended to get into the story of making it a better place.
I threw in a lot of "justified" killing of NPCs by other NPCs just to enhance the evil aspect of the city. I had bodies of tieflings piled up under one of the dottari's buildings as they were trying to exterminate them as part of the response to the Bastards of Erebus crimes. Stuff like that. A truly heinous setting.
So, I think that's the part about the first book that they liked the most. They also enjoyed fighting the Bastards, although their constant use of the Darkness spell made it a very difficult encounter for them.
What they disliked the most was how fast level 1 went by through the sewers. I made it so that they had a brief lead over the Hellknights, and each time they reached a special marking, they could spend part of that lead to increase the chance of reading the mark correctly. Incorrect readings resulted in more random encounters, but taking time would result in the Hellknights catching them. However, they were able to get the readings correct without spending much time and after 4 encounters they reached the exit. They suddenly were level 2 and they thought it was too fast. I agree. Giving them lots of XP just for entering and exiting the sewer seems too much.
They also disliked Palaveen's loot, which includes a potion of Disguise Self. This caused a lot of arguments about the legality of that potion, since the spell Disguise Self is a personal spell. That upset the rules-lawyer players so much that it frankly ruined the fun of beating the Bastards.
So, I think that's the part about the first book that they liked the most. They also enjoyed fighting the Bastards, although their constant use of the Darkness spell made it a very difficult encounter for them.
Did your changes also make the Bastards of Erebus sympathetic?
What they disliked the most was how fast level 1 went by through the sewers. I made it so that they had a brief lead over the Hellknights, and each time they reached a special marking, they could spend part of that lead to increase the chance of reading the mark correctly. Incorrect readings resulted in more random encounters, but taking time would result in the Hellknights catching them. However, they were able to get the readings correct without spending much time and after 4 encounters they reached the exit. They suddenly were level 2 and they thought it was too fast. I agree. Giving them lots of XP just for entering and exiting the sewer seems too much.
I disliked that part so much that I replaced it with a couple of PFS senarios (swapping out the intended villains for Bastards.)
They also disliked Palaveen's loot, which includes a potion of Disguise Self. This caused a lot of arguments about the legality of that potion, since the spell Disguise Self is a personal spell. That upset the rules-lawyer players so much that it frankly ruined the fun of beating the Bastards.
Wait until they get the "+1 Mithral Quarterstaff" early in Part III (What Lies In the Dust)
well they were doing the rules as they were writing the adventures so i'm sure some things will need to be tweaked here or there:) loot being one of them:)
So I've started running this and looking over things...
I see a lot of threads concerning the sewers and talking about experience/buffing it, etc, because PCs should be 2nd level.
At Medium progression, 2nd level is 2000 xp. You get over 1000 xp for following Janiven into the sewers, and over 1000 again for making your way -through- the sewers.
Am I missing something, because it seems there's little need at this point to run several 'side' missions to get the xp.
So I've started running this and looking over things...
I see a lot of threads concerning the sewers and talking about experience/buffing it, etc, because PCs should be 2nd level.
At Medium progression, 2nd level is 2000 xp. You get over 1000 xp for following Janiven into the sewers, and over 1000 again for making your way -through- the sewers.
Am I missing something, because it seems there's little need at this point to run several 'side' missions to get the xp.
Yes. The two story awards you mention are supposed to be divided among the heroes, not per character.
Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification.
Ah, okay. Thanks for the clarification.
Actually, given how hated the sewer section is, perhaps you are better off not fixing it.
I'm using the excellent Children of Westcrown Guide and had an idea inspired by the Skulls and Shackles game I'm currently a PC in.
I'm spreading out the encounters over the course of several weeks, so in between the rescue of Arael and the Bastards, they will have to earn a living and "lay low" as the book suggests. To give some structure to this, I've created additional actions that might be taken, the DC for each and the benefit.
I wanted to share them here for refinement, so let me know what suggestions/tweaks you would make and if there are any you would add.
** spoiler omitted **
seems this could be updated now with the Ultimate campaign downtime rules - I'm gonna be running this in a couple of months
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Speaking of Bluehood:
"Bluehood offers a reward for any shadow beast killed if the slayers drop its corpse..."
It looks like her money is safe at least if shadowgarms are killed,
"Since a shadowgarm melts away into shadows and fog when it dies, leaving no evidence of a corpse..."
As long as I'm at it, it seems like Seelah got gipped. By my count, she has a 14 pt character build to the other pre-gens 15. I tried assuming she was middle aged but it was still 14.
I know this is ANCIENT, but I'm just updating my copy of this now.
Seelah looks fine. It looks like what you did was assume her Strength had her Human bonus of +2 added in, when it was actually either Con or Cha with it. The way you can tell is that they didn't build the pre-gens necessarily with a 15 point buy exactly, but just gave them the elite array (8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15). So for Seelah, that translates to:
Str 15
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 13
Cha 14-2=12
Which comes to an elite array (and is technically also a 15-point buy).
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Pg. 76 - Haniver gremlin
This creature got an update in Bestiary 4. The following changes are meant to match it to that stat block:
Speed: Change land speed from "5 ft." to "10 ft."
CMB: Change CMB from "-3" to "-1"
Skills: Change the entire skills line to read as follows:
"Skills Disable Device +3, Disguise +5, Fly +5, Perception +4, Sleight of Hand +7, Stealth +13, Swim +13; Racial Modifiers +2 Disable Device, +2 Sleight of Hand"
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Pg. 85 - Torble Familiars sidebar
The last paragraph of this sidebar says that torble familiars gain a permanent Intelligence score of 3. Because they're no longer mindless, it should also mention that they gain a feat and 1 skill point. Players should probably work with their GMs to determine what feat their torble familiar is realistically able to select. Personally I would only allow those same list of feats that animal companions are limited to, Int score of 3 or not.
I am running this and deal with whitechin I need to know is there a temple ruin map I can use for this encounter?