Secret Page and Comprehend Languages help! :)


General Discussion (Prerelease)

Grand Lodge

OK, working on my little adventure. The hook, the key to kicking off the fun stuff, revolves around Secret Page and Comprehend Languages. So some quick quotes from the Beta:

Spoiler:
pfogc.com wrote:

Comprehend Languages You can understand the spoken words of creatures or read otherwise incomprehensible written messages. In either case, you must touch the creature or the writing. The ability to read does not necessarily impart insight into the material, merely its literal meaning. The spell enables you to understand or read an unknown language, not speak or write it.

Written material can be read at the rate of one page (250 words) per minute. Magical writing cannot be read, though the spell reveals that it is magical. This spell can be foiled by certain warding magic (such as the secret page and illusory script spells). It does not decipher codes or reveal messages concealed in otherwise normal text.

Spoiler:
pfogc.com wrote:

Secret page alters the contents of a page so that it appears to be something entirely different. The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell. Explosive runes or sepia snake sigil can be cast upon the secret page.

A comprehend languages spell alone cannot reveal a secret page’s contents. You are able to reveal the original contents by speaking a special word. You can then peruse the actual page and return it to its secret page form at will. You can also remove the spell by double repetition of the special word. A detect magic spell reveals dim magic on the page in question but does not reveal its true contents. True seeing reveals the presence of the hidden material but does not reveal the contents unless cast in combination with comprehend languages. A secret page spell can be dispelled, and the hidden writings can be destroyed by means of an erase spell.

Here is the key part I REALLY need to be 100% right on. The player is using Comprehend Languages to read an ancient scroll. The scroll has Secret Page on it. Does Comprehend Languages show that the scroll is magical, even though the text that is revealed with Comprehend Languages is history and not magical in nature?

I am really hoping the answer is "Yes," as it will simply the plot a LOT!

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

So, the page originally has "Text A" written on it, and then the actual text is hidden with secret page, which now displays "Text B," written in some obscure language. Both Text A and Text B actually say something, but neither Text A nor Text B is magical writing. Am I correct so far?

So the party finds the scroll, can't read the obscure language, and casts comprehend languages. At my table, I would rule that the spell would be fooled by secret page, and accurately report the clear text of Text B. If you cast comprehend languages and true seeing, it would accurately report the clear text of Text A.

If you wanted comprehend languages to return a value of "Error 93: text is unreadable magic script", then I would think that Text B would have to be some sort of magical script.

That would be my ruling.


I basically agree with Chris.

Comprehend Languages would translate Text B (unless that was "magical writing", such as "another spell" as mentioned in Secret Page description), while simultaneously revealing that the text is magical.

Grand Lodge

Well that is the plan. However, these guys are only 2nd level will not have True Seeing yet. Therefore they have to go quest to find someone able and willing to to cast True Seeing and Comprehend Languages and willing to translate the document. Oh and is trustworthy!. lol

Here is the kicker. When they read the scroll, unless they realize there is something more to the scroll than the overlaying "fake" document, they will never know to go to a sage and get all that stuff done.

But if Comprehend Languages shows there is "something magical" about this document, they would cast Detect Magic and come away with really nothing other than there is something magical about the document.

Realizing they are not up to the task they will have to go find the sage.

But if they never even realize they need to do a Detect Magic and find a sage, the story stalls, and I have to lead them along, which I hate.

So, would Secret Page cause Comprehend Languages to show there is something vaguely and mysteriously magical? Or would it too be completely fooled?


'Fraid not. If you read the comprehend languages entry, it specifically says it does not translate magical writing. There is nothing magical about Text B. It's perfectly mundane, if hard to read. Text A, presumeably, is also perfectly mundane.

Now, if you need them to think something is hinky, try one of the following :

  • Hinky Words: Have Text B be gibberish. Even comprehend languages doesn't reveal anything to them. Not because it's blocked, but because there's no meaning to comprehend. Print off a collection of random words in 8 or 9 languages ahead of time (use an online language converter to get the foreign words). They should tumble to the fact something is off when the read a mixture of elvish, dwarvish, orcish, common, sylvan, draconic, ignan, etc words mixed together at random. Commprehend languages can only convey meaning if there is some meaning there. That ought to make them curious.
  • Mysteriously well preserved : Have the intended scroll be mixed with a bunch of other scrolls, but the other scrolls are deteriorated. Not crumbling to dust, but in noticeably worse shape than this one. Also helps if they have a few other scrolls in the bunch that are also preserved but magical (say some first level spells on scroll mixed in).
  • Mysterious symbol: Another good one is to have a mysterious symbol in the corner of the page that none of the other scrolls with it have. For example, a red eye symbol, or a sunburst, or something. Something to make it seem special, despite the fact it has a recipe for Thunderlizard Soup on it.


Hey Krom,

Sounds like a good hook and some good advice so far.

What if your players didn't have to uncover the Secret Page right away to advance the plot? For example, they Comprehend Languages and after studying the scroll they realize it contains a coded message.

Comprehend Languages might translate "John has a long mustache" but wouldn't tell the reader that D-Day is coming.

So they need to find someone who knows the code. This leads them to the sage they must trust, etc. Adventure over? Not so fast . . . Only after researching the coded message do they learn of the Secret Page.

Hope this helps!

Grand Lodge

Not to give too much away, but essentially the plan is that the PCs find some chests of ancient Osirion treasures. Their patron is a collector-broker of Osirion treasure. In one of the chests is a scroll, perfectly preserved (funny you guys mentioned that). It is obviously illuminated by Osirion scribes (fancy Osirion symbols on the edges) but the text is unknown to the PCs and Patron. Once Comprehend Languages is cast it turns out to be Azlanti, and details the last days of the war with elves. The scroll relates how the elves were erecting gates to abandon Golarion because they were loosing the war. Of course then we know the Starstone hit ad messed things up. This is the Azlanti version of the war with the elves found in the Azlanti section of the Campaign Setting (never made sense to me that the elves were fighting barbarian humans barely able to read and write when it was the peak of human civilization).

So, that is the cover text, I shall call Text B.

But beneath Text B, lies Text A, which once found will lead the PCs to Osirion to find a long lost Azlanti outpost, a treasure hunt and to seek a great ancient artifact.

I guess the only way to get them suspicious enough to investigate the scroll is to include some rotting scrolls, and a couple that are pristine but they contain spells or some other magical writing.

A scroll with instructions on making flesh golems wouldn't show up magical either would it? (trying for some ancient arcane-necromancy flavor here)

Grand Lodge

BTW you guys on here will see me ask questions a bit I am sure. Problem is it is kind of a spoiler! Once finished I plan on fixing it up as a PDF and putting it up for everyone to use (should they be crazy enough to want to) as part of the Community Use.

You should see the maps so far! :)

Liberty's Edge

Krome:

Spoiler:
I prepared explosive runes today. *boom*

Dark Archive

If this were me and the rules didn't allow for the PCs to be able to read the scroll without True Seeing or a higher spell of that nature (and they failed to find an NPC to cast said spell)...

I would make them think (through the description given after their failed rolls) that the scroll was an art object of sorts. Then, if they were greedy enough to sell it, they would find out much later (through plot dialogue) that a scroll with vital information was lost or hidden right about where they found the scroll they sold.

The frustrated PCs would need to backtrack and find/track down the vendor they sold the scroll to. Then you have some fun options as a DM, possibly including:

- Said vendor is suddenly unwilling to sell the scroll back for less than an outrageous price. After all, it must be important for the PCs to have come back for it. They don't look like antique dealers.

- Said vendor is dead. The scroll was stolen. Subplot begins.

- Said vendor figured out the scroll (maybe with help from a local mage or a capable relative) and is currently pursuing riches through the information discovered.

Etc, etc... Be as cruel as you can. =)

You could simultaneously 'rewind' a plot, begin a subplot, and humble your PCs when they discover that they possessed key evidence toward their goals well before they were capable of understanding it.

Grand Lodge

houstonderek wrote:

Krome:

** spoiler omitted **

Oh no, not again...

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Krome wrote:


A scroll with instructions on making flesh golems wouldn't show up magical either would it? (trying for some ancient arcane-necromancy flavor here)

If it gave mundane, cookbook instructions, that really don't help much, probably not.

If it included the spells that needed to be cast, yes.

If it functioned as a Manual of Golem Makin' , then most definitely.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Well Krome here's where Knowledge skills can come into play. As Text B is historical drop something in there that is not accurate. A DC 15 Know (History) is enough to spot a basic inaccuracy. If the PC's don't have Know (history) the Patron should! He can mention that something is wrong.

Also as True Seeing is far too high for them maybe the inaccuracy is a secret code inside Text B that reveals the password. Use another Knowledge skill to unlock it, say a Know (Geography or Nobility) and this will force them to take it to a Sage.

--ElectroVrock Therapy!

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

primemover003 wrote:
Well Krome here's where Knowledge skills can come into play. As Text B is historical drop something in there that is not accurate. A DC 15 Know (History) is enough to spot a basic inaccuracy. If the PC's don't have Know (history) the Patron should! He can mention that something is wrong.

Maybe, PrimeMover 003. But if I were a player, I'd wonder "Why did this Azlanti scribe get that wrong?" or "Were they trying to make revisionist claims to history?" I might even suspect a modern forgery. But I wouldn't suspect anything crazy like secret page.

primemover003 wrote:
Maybe the inaccuracy is a secret code inside Text B that reveals the password. Use another Knowledge skill to unlock it, say a Know (Geography or Nobility) and this will force them to take it to a Sage.

That sounds a lot better to me. In the clear to Text B, Krome might even go to the trouble of writing in the code. The symbols around the text's edges might be paired up. When the pairs are connected with straight lines, the segments might intersect atop letters in Text B that spell out the password.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I'd be interested in a professional opinion because I disagree with the current consensus.

Seems to me that the fact Secret Page alters the contents of a page so that it appears to be something entirely different the resulting text would be magical writing.

This seems to be supported by the fact that Secret Page specifies that Comprehend Languages alone won't decipher the text. Since the spell is mentioned directly I would expect the implication is that the writing is magical. If secret page doesn't qualify as magical writing then I would wish that it had been better clarified in the rules text.


Locke1520 wrote:

Seems to me that the fact Secret Page alters the contents of a page so that it appears to be something entirely different the resulting text would be magical writing.

This seems to be supported by the fact that Secret Page specifies that Comprehend Languages alone won't decipher the text. Since the spell is mentioned directly I would expect the implication is that the writing is magical. If secret page doesn't qualify as magical writing then I would wish that it had been better clarified in the rules text.

Agreed.

Besides, detect magic does reveals traces of magic. Not only would it be likely that your players cast a detect magic spell on the scroll (especially since it can be cast at will), but this proves that the scroll isn't a mundane item anymore. Whether the writings themselves are magical or not is unclear by the spell's description, but I'd be incline to say that they are, especially since secret page is a transmutation spell (affect the object) as opposed to an illusion (affect the perception of the beholder).

In a more literal sense, text B has been scribed magically, unlike text A that has (probably) been scribed the old fashion way. It would thus be a magical writing even if it does not hold any intrinsic power.

'findel


Laurefindel wrote:
Locke1520 wrote:

Seems to me that the fact Secret Page alters the contents of a page so that it appears to be something entirely different the resulting text would be magical writing.

This seems to be supported by the fact that Secret Page specifies that Comprehend Languages alone won't decipher the text. Since the spell is mentioned directly I would expect the implication is that the writing is magical. If secret page doesn't qualify as magical writing then I would wish that it had been better clarified in the rules text.

Agreed.

Besides, detect magic does reveals traces of magic. Not only would it be likely that your players cast a detect magic spell on the scroll (especially since it can be cast at will), but this proves that the scroll isn't a mundane item anymore. Whether the writings themselves are magical or not is unclear by the spell's description, but I'd be incline to say that they are, especially since secret page is a transmutation spell (affect the object) as opposed to an illusion (affect the perception of the beholder).

In a more literal sense, text B has been scribed magically, unlike text A that has (probably) been scribed the old fashion way. It would thus be a magical writing even if it does not hold any intrinsic power.

'findel

I would disagree, if the writing was magical, then Read Magic could read them. Either way, you're letting a cantrip (detect or read) magic overcome a 3rd level spell, rendering it all but useless.

Secret page specifically says the page has a 'dim' glow of magic about it, not 'it has the appearance of magical writing'. If TEXT B was magical, then it would appear as magical writing (IE: If it looked as if someone had scribed the cantrip 'read magic' onto the scroll as text b). Honestly, this is probably the best solution, as the page has a dim magic, has magical writing, and still has the secret page on it.

Alternatly, the GM could (and should) toss out a few scrolls with 'preservation' on them. Plain old scrolls with mundane stuff on them that's just plain old scrolls in adventures prior to them finding this special scroll. This sets up the expectation that scrolls can be preserved. He could even tell anyone with the scribe scroll feat they know how to do it. Add 100gp to the cost of any scroll that's not magical, and it's preserved against aging, dampness (not submersion), mold, and standard use.

Of course, someone should probably wonder why someone preserved, say, a recipe for mushroom soup, considering the cost. ;)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Chris Mortika wrote:
In the clear to Text B, Krome might even go to the trouble of writing in the code. The symbols around the text's edges might be paired up. When the pairs are connected with straight lines, the segments might intersect atop letters in Text B that spell out the password.

I was thinking instead of strange symbols around the edges of the page the code is in the text. For example, the inaccuracy of Text B is a reference to the 4th high priest of Nethys Amun the lesser, when any student of history (or nobility) knows that Ptah XXV was high priest at the time. The mistake hints at a substitution cipher whereas letter 4 of the osiriani or azlanti language is replaced by the 25th (using maybe decipher script to break the code). Then re-writing the inaccurate passage reveals the password to reveal the secret page.

As for how the magic works, secret page doesn't necessarily make the writing magical, however the scroll would detect faintly, but Text B (as a historic text) is neither an arcane or divine spell.

So pick up scroll in unknown language/dialect. Comprehend Languages is used. Text is historical document (know check or checks) but is clearly inaccurate. Detect Magic reveals faint aura of ? (Spellcraft check). If PC's and Patron don't have Decipher Script or the secondary Knowledge check they know of a Sage that does.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

mdt wrote:

I would disagree, if the writing was magical, then Read Magic could read them. Either way, you're letting a cantrip (detect or read) magic overcome a 3rd level spell, rendering it all but useless.

Secret page specifically says the page has a 'dim' glow of magic about it, not 'it has the appearance of magical writing'. If TEXT B was magical, then it would appear as magical writing (IE: If it looked as if someone had scribed the cantrip 'read magic' onto the scroll as text b). Honestly, this is probably the best solution, as the page has a dim magic, has magical writing, and still has the secret page on it.

Alternatly, the GM could (and should) toss...

Secret Page includes the exact method by which it can be read. That inclusion plus the differences in spell level indicates that Read Magic cannot bypass Secret Page. That restriction does not mean that Secret Page is not magical text.

Grand Lodge

Locke1520 wrote:

I'd be interested in a professional opinion because I disagree with the current consensus.

Seems to me that the fact Secret Page alters the contents of a page so that it appears to be something entirely different the resulting text would be magical writing.

This seems to be supported by the fact that Secret Page specifies that Comprehend Languages alone won't decipher the text. Since the spell is mentioned directly I would expect the implication is that the writing is magical. If secret page doesn't qualify as magical writing then I would wish that it had been better clarified in the rules text.

That is exactly the vagueness of the two spells that prompted me to inquire. I can see that there is a magical aura, but I can see that there is not. It seems rather vague. Secret Page seems to imply that the only possible likely text to be on a scroll is a spell. Which is pretty darn lame.

Ok, after reading, reading and reading the descriptions again... Comprehend Languages will not decipher the text if that text is magical though it will reveal that the text is magical.

In this case Text B is not magical, but mundane history. Therefore, it would not reveal any magical nature of the scroll.

Should Detect Magic be used, it would reveal that there is a magical aura, but be unable to define what the nature of the magic is.

I like using the illuminated text as a way to reveal the password. It makes a great alternative way for the PCs to figure out the scroll.

So, the trick then is to present the scroll in such a way that the PCs might want to use Detect Magic. Also, a great use for Knowledge (History) to find some inaccuracies. Either one will pique the interest of the PCs.

Either way, either the PCs or the patron can decide to find a sage to help explain the problem. It is of course preferable for the PCs to be the ones to figure out the oddness of the scroll.

Ok, so the PCs get a scroll that is in immaculate shape while the others in the collection are frail and deteriorating (Clue #1). This scroll is illuminated by an Osirion scribe, but the text is unknown to the PCs and patron (Clue #2). Either the PCs or Patron will decide to use Comprehend Languages on the scroll. They will figure out that it was written in Azlanti, by an Azlanti scribe. It depicts the Azlanti-Elven War. However, it also depicts some events after the Starfall that the scribe could not possibly have known (cause he would have been dead) (Clue #3). Anyone with Knowledge (History) would get a chance to detect the oddity (Clue #4). All of these clues add up to there being more to meet the eye.

If the PCs do not, at this point, Detect Magic, a freebie spell to cast, then the Patron will wonder out loud if the scroll could be magical in some way, allowing the PCs to catch on. If they are STILL not getting it the Patron can blatantly ask a PC to cast Detect Magic.

NOW the PCs know the scroll is magical, but nothing else. Either PCs or Patron will decide that a sage should be consulted, which leads to the next part of the story, which is what I wanted all along!

How does that sound? Leading too much? Too vague?


Krome wrote:

Ok, so the PCs get a scroll that is in immaculate shape while the others in the collection are frail and deteriorating (Clue #1). This scroll is illuminated by an Osirion scribe, but the text is unknown to the PCs and patron (Clue #2). Either the PCs or Patron will decide to use Comprehend Languages on the scroll. They will figure out that it was written in Azlanti, by an Azlanti scribe. It depicts the Azlanti-Elven War. However, it also depicts some events after the Starfall that the scribe could not possibly have known (cause he would have been dead) (Clue #3). Anyone with Knowledge (History) would get a chance to detect the oddity (Clue #4). All of these clues add up to there being more to meet the eye.

If the PCs do not, at this point, Detect Magic, a freebie spell to cast, then the Patron will wonder out loud if the scroll could be magical in some way, allowing the PCs to catch on. If they are STILL not getting it the Patron can blatantly ask a PC to cast Detect Magic.

NOW the PCs know the scroll is magical, but nothing else. Either PCs or Patron will decide that a sage should be consulted, which leads to the next part of the story, which is what I wanted all along!

How does that sound? Leading too much? Too vague?

The only change I'd make is, unless it's vital they start off immediately, if they don't think of having a sage look into it, have the patron set the scroll aside if the PC's don't think of it, and have him tell them to be thinking about it.

Then, you could have them meet a sage as part of another small story arc. Hopefully they will then think of having the sage investigate the scroll. Maybe save him from something as part of another mission.

Grand Lodge

mdt wrote:


The only change I'd make is, unless it's vital they start off immediately, if they don't think of having a sage look into it, have the patron set the scroll aside if the PC's don't think of it, and have him tell them to be thinking about it.

Then, you could have them meet a sage as part of another small story arc. Hopefully they will then think of having the sage investigate the scroll. Maybe save him from something as part of another mission.

Nope not vital at all. There is a bit of urban adventuring to do to get them up to level and ready to depart. Been thinking of having them mess with either a thieves guild (been there done that), a wizards guild (again?) or go against a good aligned church >;) just because they are all good doesn't mean they can't have conflict when goals cross...


Krome wrote:
mdt wrote:


The only change I'd make is, unless it's vital they start off immediately, if they don't think of having a sage look into it, have the patron set the scroll aside if the PC's don't think of it, and have him tell them to be thinking about it.

Then, you could have them meet a sage as part of another small story arc. Hopefully they will then think of having the sage investigate the scroll. Maybe save him from something as part of another mission.

Nope not vital at all. There is a bit of urban adventuring to do to get them up to level and ready to depart. Been thinking of having them mess with either a thieves guild (been there done that), a wizards guild (again?) or go against a good aligned church >;) just because they are all good doesn't mean they can't have conflict when goals cross...

Absolutely,

This is something that most GM's tend to gloss over. Good does not mean, necessarily, altruistic at all times. It's entirely possible for two 'good' men to disagree over something, even fight over it. Fantasy is rife with tales of two good men fighting over the same woman, for example. Or, even two noble countries going to war with each other over territory, or scarce resources, or points of honor, just to name a few.

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