Hi,
I'm fairly new to Pathfinder Beta. My DM got the manual for playtesting and he has converted all our PCs and it works fine.
But, when reading the spells to compare what has changed from the D&D 3.5, we have become quite confused about the description of level 2 Darkness spell. After carefully reading its description in Pathfinder Beta, the conclusion is that the spell creates darkness where there is actually natural darkness. What is more, like in natural darkness, any illumination works fine within it. So what would be the purpose of casting darkness?.
We here are quite confused and think it is a clear error in the spell description.
What do you think?
P.D: I've looked for any posts about this issue but found none, and I don't know if this is the correct place to post this. But since the playtesting boards are closed...
Hi,
I'm fairly new to Pathfinder Beta. My DM got the manual for playtesting and he has converted all our PCs and it works fine.
But, when reading the spells to compare what has changed from the D&D 3.5, we have become quite confused about the description of level 2 Darkness spell. After carefully reading its description in Pathfinder Beta, the conclusion is that the spell creates darkness where there is actually natural darkness. What is more, like in natural darkness, any illumination works fine within it. So what would be the purpose of casting darkness?.
We here are quite confused and think it is a clear error in the spell description.
What do you think?P.D: I've looked for any posts about this issue but found none, and I don't know if this is the correct place to post this. But since the playtesting boards are closed...
Yes, the spell darkness in the beta is much different than the 3.5 spell darkness (as is Deeper Darkness).
It functions as a negative torch, rather than giving concealment to everything.
I don't have a problem with it, but I don't know if it's going to be the same in the final product.
But the problem is that we can't see any point in using it.
I mean, what we get when reading the description is that magical darkness created with that spell only prevails where normal darkness can prevail, and only limits visibility in the same manner.
It's like: "we are in a dark underground cavern, someone casts darkness and now the room is magically dark instead of naturally dark, but the effects are quite the same. I there were any torches in there, the room would not be dark no matter what (with spell or without it) and if someone had darkvision, he/she would notice no difference whatsoever".
I imagine a "create water" spell that can only create water in a fresh water lake. That would be as useful.
In the spell's description we don't see that negative torch you mention. Maybe there's some detail we haven't realized yet :SS
Thanks anyway :P
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Tr0ki, as crmanriq said 'Darkness'-spell now creates an area of "normal" darkness. This means that normal light sources (daylight, torches, lanterns, candles and so on) penetrates it; also, Darkvision works just fine within an area created by the 'Darkness'-spell.
My players used this very spell to trash my ambush (note: NPCs without Darkvision), and it was then that I realized how useful spell it can be, from a tactical POV. It's not useful outside or deep underground in lightless caves, but it works just fine within a confined space without too many windows -- or at night -- and against opponents without Darkvision (also assuming at least *some* PCs have Darkvision). In 3E, I don't think I can recall a single time anyone used the spell for tactical advantage (to escape, disguise identity, or to frighten/confuse opponents, yes, but not for much beyond that), but I've seen it happen in Beta twice now.
It is only a second level spell, so we shouldn't expect anything powerful. But it does have its uses:
First, it can be used to counter light spells. Image an encounter in a dark dungeon where the enemy brought only light spells with them, but no torches or candles. The fight went awry, and by casting the spell you provide your group a means of escape under the cover of darkness.
Next, since it can counter light spells, I imagine it can counter normal torches, candles, etc., too. Darkness cast in a room lit by torches snuffs all theses torches out. Look at the wording:
Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) and light spells brought inside the area of darkness can brighten the area.
[Emphasis mine]
So, I think, all sources light inside the area of effect of this spell are negated when the spell is cast, but a new source of light brought in the area after the spell is cast negates the spell.
--
So, where did I put this blasted key?
It's certainly better than 3.5's Darkness. I never liked the idea that a spell with the [darkness] descriptor could actually make it easier to see, as in 3.5's version--which creates a region of shadowy illumination. Cast that in a totally dark room, and suddenly you can see better!
As for reasons to cast it--well, that would depend on the character. I could see some orc shamans casting this spell on a few pieces of equipment for a daring daylight raid to keep their warriors from being dazzled in the light. PCs could likewise use it to create a cover for escape during the day, to confuse their enemies long enough to get away.
The effects of the Pathfinder one are a bit confusing.
One way of thinking of it is as a portable obscuring mist spell, that can be negated by a light source brought into the area, and seen through by darkvision.
Here's an old forum on the topic with comments from Jason.
Tr0ki, as crmanriq said 'Darkness'-spell now creates an area of "normal" darkness. This means that normal light sources (daylight, torches, lanterns, candles and so on) penetrates it; also, Darkvision works just fine within an area created by the 'Darkness'-spell.
You have to bring the source of the light into the area of effect. I don't think daylight is going to be very useful against this spell.
If it's cast in an area lit by daylight, you need darkvision to see inside it. Most parties don't have their torches lit during the day.
Eureka!!!
I knew that posting my doubts and reading the answers would give me a way to interpret the spell's description in BETA.
You see, these two facts we hadn't considered when reading the description:
-If light sources already in the area are negated.
-If normal/ magical light of lower levels brought into the area only illuminate the darknened area when the source itself enters it -thus making it possible to cast the spell outdoors in a sunny morning (assuming the sun itself won't enter the area).
Then the spell is useful. Even though I prefer the home rules presented by Master :P
But what I initially concluded when reading the description was that with this spell you could only create magical darkness under tje same conditions that natural darkness "naturally" appears---> useless.
Darkness works very well for creatures that have darkvision, especially when their opponents do not.
Imagine a group of PCs traveling with light. There is an area of normal illumination, surrounded by an area of dim illumination. And just outside that area of dim illumination is a tiefling with darkness as a spell-like ability. The tiefling uses darkness, and suddenly the PCs are in an island of normal illumination in the middle of actual darkness. Any PC who steps outside the area of normal illumination is blind, unable to see (unless they have darkvision), while the tiefling can see just fine. And if you're blind to an opponent, you're denied your Dexterity bonus to that opponent. Which means that opponent can sneak attack you... again and again and again. Any time the tiefling can separate a party member from the others so that PC is in the dark (say, having the ranged PC hold the light while the melee PC moves ahead to deal with the enemies, or giving the melee character the light so the ranged character can fire normally into the illuminated area), that PC in the dark is very vulnerable.
True, the tiefling can just snipe the PCs from 60 feet away, comfortable in the darkness while the PCs move around in the light, but at that range they can't sneak attack.
Darkness is the best friend of a creature with darkvision; you can see just fine, your opponent has a 50% miss chance. And if you have sneak attack, it's even better for you.
Replace "tiefling" with "drow" and you have the same situation; I'm just using tieflings as an example because they were in my Bastards of Erebus playtest, and perhaps also because the sample tiefling in the Pathfinder Bestiary is a rogue....
Darkness works very well for creatures that have darkvision, especially when their opponents do not.
...and perhaps also because the sample tiefling in the Pathfinder Bestiary is a rogue....
*scribbles quickly taking many notes*
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I thought I understood the new version of "darkness" and "deeper darkness" until I read the daylight spell:
"Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is
temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions
exist in the overlapping areas of effect."
The darkness spell says this:
"Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) and light spells brought inside the area of darkness can brighten the area, allowing a creature to see normally in the light’s radius."
Therefore, I think the wording of the darkness spell should be changed to "return to prevailing conditions" instead of "brighten the area", if I understand correctly...
O_o
Replace "tiefling" with "drow" and you have the same situation; I'm just using tieflings as an example because they were in my Bastards of Erebus playtest, and perhaps also because the sample tiefling in the Pathfinder Bestiary is a rogue....
True, and those damn bastards kept using that tactic quite effectively!
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Tr0ki, as crmanriq said 'Darkness'-spell now creates an area of "normal" darkness. This means that normal light sources (daylight, torches, lanterns, candles and so on) penetrates it; also, Darkvision works just fine within an area created by the 'Darkness'-spell.
You have to bring the source of the light into the area of effect. I don't think daylight is going to be very useful against this spell.
If it's cast in an area lit by daylight, you need darkvision to see inside it. Most parties don't have their torches lit during the day.
I meant 'daylight' as in 'natural daylight coming in from windows and open doors', not the spell.
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This spell may be relevant to me in the immediate future. PDK, go 'way! :)
I'm running D0 tonight and the party may encounter the darkmantles.
The Beta wording is:
"Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) and light spells brought inside the area of darkness can brighten the area, allowing a creature to see normally in the light’s radius."
Does this mean that if the light source is outside of the area of effect that its light does not penetrate the darkness (eg the darkness is centred 20' away from a torch)? If it enters the radius (the person carrying the torch moves into the area of darkness) the darkness is illuminated?
Clear as mud? :)
Of course, posting the final version of Darkness would also solve the problem. :D
This spell may be relevant to me in the immediate future. PDK, go 'way! :)
** spoiler omitted **
The Beta wording is:
"Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) and light spells brought inside the area of darkness can brighten the area, allowing a creature to see normally in the light’s radius."Does this mean that if the light source is outside of the area of effect that its light does not penetrate the darkness (eg the darkness is centred 20' away from a torch)? If it enters the radius (the person carrying the torch moves into the area of darkness) the darkness is illuminated?
Clear as mud? :)
Of course, posting the final version of Darkness would also solve the problem. :D
If it didn't mean exactly that, then darkness would be useless.
I take the corrected version (per Jason's post way back when in that other thread) to mean that only the light source can dispel the darkness.
If not, you couldn't cast it outdoors during the day because the instant you cast it, more daylight would enter the area (light moves really fast you know) and "brighten the area".
Likewise, you couldn't cast it near a torch or lantern or sunrod or guy with a lightspell, because light from that source would instantly enter the area of the darkness and "brighten the area".
So, I think the intent is, that if there is light in the area at the time of the casting, those light sources are darkened. If there is light outside the area after the darkness spell is cast, including up to the end of its duration, that light cannot "brighten the area" of the darkness. But if a light source of any kind enters the area, it can now "brighten the area" the way it would brighten normal darkness up to the range of the light source.
So if you had a dozen bad guys darken an entire outdoor soccer field at high noon, the darkness would not be dispelled, or brightened, by the sun (unless the sun came down and entered the area of the darkness). If some guy outside lit a torch, it would not dispel or brighten the darkness. If he walked into the darkness, it would brighten only 20' radius (IIRC) and no more. It would not dispel the darkness - if he leaves before the end of the duration, the entire soccer field is dark again.
A human standing inside the darkened soccer field could not see his own hand in front of his face. Nor could he see the sun, or the guy outside with the torch. If the torch guy walked into the darkness, the human inside still could not see the torch (or the torchbearer) until it came within 20', at which time he could see it just like he could see the same guy with the same torch in a normal (non-magical) dark cave. And he could see his hand in front of his face, as long as that torch stays within 20'.
An elf in there could see the torch up to 40' away, but only once it is brought into the darkness where it "brighten the area".
Between the Beta wording, and the Jason clarification, I take it that this is what Jason intended for the Darkness spell.
News from the Cleric Preview !!!
"The light spells themselves got a bit of an overhaul. There are now four levels of illumination: darkness, dim light, normal light, and bright light. Spells like light shed normal light in a set radius and increase the light level by one step in a set area beyond that. Spells like darkness reduce the light level in a set radius. Deeper darkness can actually make an area so dark that not even darkvision can penetrate it."
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News from the Cleric Preview !!!
"The light spells themselves got a bit of an overhaul. There are now four levels of illumination: darkness, dim light, normal light, and bright light. Spells like light shed normal light in a set radius and increase the light level by one step in a set area beyond that. Spells like darkness reduce the light level in a set radius. Deeper darkness can actually make an area so dark that not even darkvision can penetrate it."
That's pretty darn spiffy. I'll have to see it in play, but it sounds like a decent way of addressing the various light / darkness issues without kludges like 'shadowy illumination.'
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Well I'm terribly dissapointed with the new version of darkness, He knew going in that he wouldn't please everybody, but I'm sorry, I think that the fact that you need deeper darkness to cancel an ability given for free at first level. Then there's also the breaking of literary traditions from books like Streams of Silver. Oh well, before the final is released and I already have a houserule. Yipee (you can tell from the preview that darkness doesn't cancel darkvision, lame).
Well I'm terribly dissapointed with the new version of darkness, He knew going in that he wouldn't please everybody, but I'm sorry, I think that the fact that you need deeper darkness to cancel an ability given for free at first level.
Clarify, please? Do you mean darkvision?
Then there's also the breaking of literary traditions from books like Streams of Silver.
Oh no, the new version of the game invalidates something written in a novel 20 years ago for a version of the game written 20 years ago! :) This just in: there's no infravision in the Pathfinder RPG!
Yipee (you can tell from the preview that darkness doesn't cancel darkvision, lame).
That's an advantage for darkvision users, as I pointed out earlier in this thread. Creatures with darkvision LOVE things that can make darkness.
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Clarify, please? Do you mean darkvision?
Yes, yes I do.
Oh no, the new version of the game invalidates something written in a novel 20 years ago for a version of the game written 20 years ago! :) This just in: there's no infravision in the Pathfinder RPG!
No but darkvision was a close enough representation of the ability, similar enough by my standards that it never bothered me, but darkness not being something that the drow can use to devastating effect against the dwarves, not so impressive and not close enough in my opinion. No
That's an advantage for darkvision users, as I pointed out earlier in this thread. Creatures with darkvision LOVE things that can make darkness.
I don't really think that's as true, I think creatures with darkvision love darkness against creatures without darkvision. Which in their habitats isn't going to be as effective. Now goblins and Orcs, I see what you're saying. but creatures in the underdark that never see the light of day (drow excluded because their constant war with the surface world and raids) to them darkness is practically useless because they'll encounter something that doesn't have darkvision maybe once in their lifetime. Now for game reasons obviously that'll be when they fight PCs and boy then will it come in handy, but really, a lifetime of experience would've gotten them used to not even bothering to use darkness so why on earth would they even think to use it the one time they encounter something. Granted you could say it's just an ability they've developed that they'll use without thinking anytime they encounter light because they shun it so. I still think it's strange that they would've developed the ability at all seeing as how it's an environmentaly useless ability, like an appendix (sp? I'm talking of course about the organ). You don't run into battle thinking, I think I'll start off using my appendix.
It's not a game breaker, I still like PRPG, I just don't like darkness in it's current form. Of course in my games darkness never created Shadowy illumination either, so I guess I didn't like 3.5s version either. Still I think that unless it's been dropped in level as a spell, it's been turned into something I'm not happy with.
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News from the Cleric Preview !!!
"The light spells themselves got a bit of an overhaul. There are now four levels of illumination: darkness, dim light, normal light, and bright light. Spells like light shed normal light in a set radius and increase the light level by one step in a set area beyond that. Spells like darkness reduce the light level in a set radius. Deeper darkness can actually make an area so dark that not even darkvision can penetrate it."
That's pretty darn spiffy. I'll have to see it in play, but it sounds like a decent way of addressing the various light / darkness issues without kludges like 'shadowy illumination.'
I think this is a clear and elegant solution to the Light/Darkness issue. :)
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Clarify, please? Do you mean darkvision?
Yes, yes I do.
Oh no, the new version of the game invalidates something written in a novel 20 years ago for a version of the game written 20 years ago! :) This just in: there's no infravision in the Pathfinder RPG!
No but darkvision was a close enough representation of the ability, similar enough by my standards that it never bothered me, but darkness not being something that the drow can use to devastating effect against the dwarves, not so impressive and not close enough in my opinion. No
That's an advantage for darkvision users, as I pointed out earlier in this thread. Creatures with darkvision LOVE things that can make darkness.I don't really think that's as true, I think creatures with darkvision love darkness against creatures without darkvision. Which in their habitats isn't going to be as effective. Now goblins and Orcs, I see what you're saying. but creatures in the underdark that never see the light of day (drow excluded because their constant war with the surface world and raids) to them darkness is practically useless because they'll encounter something that doesn't have darkvision maybe once in their lifetime. Now for game reasons obviously that'll be when they fight PCs and boy then will it come in handy, but really, a lifetime of experience would've gotten them used to not even bothering to use darkness so why on earth would they even think to use it the one time they encounter something. Granted you could say it's just an ability they've developed that they'll use without thinking anytime they encounter light because they shun it so. I still think it's strange that they would've developed the ability at all seeing as how it's an environmentaly useless ability, like an appendix (sp? I'm talking of course about the organ). You don't run into battle thinking, I think I'll start off using my appendix.
It's not a game breaker, I still...
So, perhaps the drow have a special darkness...True Darkness...an area of pure darkness...
Will we be able to buy an Everdark Hcort?
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Perhaps drow developed a darkness ability in their fight against the surface elves? I don't really recall drow using darkness vs. dwarves...
The truth of the matter is that yes, they were developed with the idea of keeping big nasty surface adventurers away from their VAULT... :P
Also, the new darkness system gives a real advantage to devils with their See in Darkness ability... before, with the shadowy illumination crap... their ability wasn't really relevant...
(btw: does polymorph allows* one to transform into an evil outsider, and if so, is "See in Darkness" one of the listed powers you can get? DHTBIFOM right now... :P)
*I think it only allows you to replicate beast shape, elemental body, plant shape, giant form and form of the dragon, but I'm not sure...
You could always give drow a feat that upgrades their darkness SLA to deeper darkness....
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drow excluded
I don't think anyone was listening when I stated this, I figure that drow with their surface wars would develop it as a weapon. But I've seen it on other creatures from the underdark as an SLA etc. and that's what I'm talking about. Now I understand what your saying that it's an easy fix and I already said I'd fix it. but I'd rather fix the spell than fix the race.
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I was poking around the Beta spell lists today and I noticed that Continual Light is not only Sor/Wiz 2 but Cleric 3 as well. Does this mean an everburning torch created by a cleric is unaffected by the Darkness spell?
Dispelling or countering refers to two things: dispel magic and counterspells, respectively. The part of the spell providing direction on dispels and counterspells is a source of confusion for many, it seems.
As per Beta:
1. Any type of light brought within the darkness spell brightens it up to the extent of its light radius.
2. Any *magical* light brought within the deeper darkness spell brightens it up to the extent of its light radius.
In short, magical light always win. [1]
The final PRPG will be different though, so don't get comfortable with this easy-to-follow mantra of mine... :)
[1] The wording of the daylight spell turns the whole system on its head though, but Jason already told us that Daylight has been fixed in the final version...