As a DM, I think I may have backed myself into a bit of a corner with regards to stats and equipment within the Age of Worms. Over the first four segments of the AP, and with a side-jaunt into Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, my party has become quite well-equipped. Most of them have some form of magical armor (I threw in a Crimson Coat of Ilpharzz as loot towards the end of Hall of Harsh Reflections) and a ring of protection (+1 or +2), and a few have amulets of natural armor as well. This, combined with decent DEX's, shields, and various spells (magic circle against evil, typically) and feats (Shield Specialization, Combat Expertise, etc.) means that they are often able to maintain ACs in the high 20's/low 30's in the face of opposition.
(This includes the goliath spiked-chain fighter, who often gets an enlarge person boost from the wizard -- thus having somewhere in the realm of +20 to hit, dealing 3d6 + lots of damage -- so using Combat Expertise for 2 - 5 doesn't tremendously impact his ability to utterly demolish most opponents. And that's not even coming near the whole "I trip you forever" schtick.)
This results in the various mooks being pretty much completely unable to hit the PCs at all. Which means no threat from them, and only the lieutenants and bosses (who I have to pump or buff up to be around +20 attack to come close to touching) have a chance to injure the party... but do so typically with scads of damage from high-STR attacks.
That leads to players bemoaning that they get hit "too often", which makes them look for ways to increase their AC, which makes me redesign villains who actually have a chance of hitting their ACs..... GAAAAAAAAH.
Honestly, I'm kind of looking forward to the possibility of removing some of their gear in Champions' Belt, via gladiator sundering, black-pudding dissolving, or froghemoth-swallowing. A little something to even the playing field, because I suspect I may have given out a bit too much in the way of decent loot.
Any suggestions? Or are the opposition mooks destined to flail about uselessly as the PCs scythe through them like wheat?
Just a few generic comments:
-Don't forget to audit the ACs every once in a while (e.g. Magic Circle doesn't stack with Ring of Protection -- they're both deflection bonuses) to make sure they're right.
-If mooks are missing too often, try trips, grapples, bull rushes, tanglefoot bags, etc.
But assuming that you've tried those basic steps, I'm not sure what the next step would be.
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I've had the same problem, and I've found lots of good advice on these and other boards.
One - reward them for their high AC with double the mooks - they'll love it and you might get more threats. Half the xp on all the mooks while you're at it :-) (Or let them shoot up the levels and then watch the fun when the bad guys attk bonus outstrips their AC)
If the touch AC is more reasonable, grapple from reach with tentacle beasts that do constrict and ability damage. Tentamorts are fun.
Touch attacks, grapples ... what else, ranged touch, targeted dispels, area attacks, terrain that messes up their AC (eg slippy or sticky),
Entangle, Black Tentacles, ethereal and incorporeal enemies, gaze attacks (oh yeah!), targeted Dispels, splash damage, poison sprays and spits, flanking, team grappling, earthgliding baddies, swarms (oh yeah!), tramples, aid another, readied actions...
A quick google also found this article. Enjoy! If the party are having fun let them enjoy it - that means you're doing well DM-ing. You just have to get your own kicks legally on the side without them feeling like you're either annoyed or gunning for them.
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This is all good advice, apart from (in my opinion) Black Tentacles.
That spell sucks every last bit of fun out of the game, and if you use it then so will the players.
What should be an exciting fight degenerates into an endless series of grapple checks - at which point the PCs make sure they have Freedom of Movement at all times, so it becomes an endless series of grapple checks for the DM only.
I might also recommend throwing some mobs at them. They're like swarms with larger specimens. Mob rules are detailed in the DMG II. It's automatic damage, expert grappler, no pesky attack rolls. Mobs could be your God-send should your PCs screw up the Champion's Belt and the Free City is overrun with wights.
Also, don't worry about the AC. Just keep doing what you're doing, and try to embrace the fact that your PCs are, in fact, rare anomalies of heroic prowess. It's ok to just accept that fact and set up the bowling pins for them to knock over. The boss battles will come. There will come a day when your goliath spiked chain master will not be able to trip very often anymore. Let your PCs mow down foes, but make sure you hit them where it hurts at those boss battles.
I might also recommend throwing some mobs at them. They're like swarms with larger specimens. Mob rules are detailed in the DMG II. It's automatic damage, expert grappler, no pesky attack rolls. Mobs could be your God-send should your PCs screw up the Champion's Belt and the Free City is overrun with wights.
Also, don't worry about the AC. Just keep doing what you're doing, and try to embrace the fact that your PCs are, in fact, rare anomalies of heroic prowess. It's ok to just accept that fact and set up the bowling pins for them to knock over. The boss battles will come. There will come a day when your goliath spiked chain master will not be able to trip very often anymore. Let your PCs mow down foes, but make sure you hit them where it hurts at those boss battles.
Mobs were, in fact, something that I very much have in mind for potential aftermath of a failed Champion's Belt run. And I definitely do have some upgrades in mind for the boss battles -- that, and an extra round within the Games themselves. I'm betting they'll be able to do something impressive with the second round I have in mind -- a bunch of dwarves and a spellcaster on the shoulders of a stone giant with Improved Unarmed Strike and a reach weapon -- but the third round (with my version of Pitch Blade) and the fourth round (with Madtooth) will no doubt be FAR more interesting.
"All right, I try to trip the charging fighter and..."
"He improved-sunders your spiked chain."
"What?!? NO!"
*grin*
Awesome. I should also recommend completely rebuilding every team your group fights in the games. Those pre-made teams, though interesting and well-made, were doomed to die at the hands of my group. Pitting two dwarven barbarians against my group was laughable. This is the brief on what I came up with:
1. Sentinel Guard: Six fighter types who used shield other and aid another in conjunction with their signature weapons. Their shield phalanx was shattered, and the Guard was defeated.
2. The Order of the Dragon: Six oriental types consisting of three samurai, a sohei, a monk, and a wu jen. One by one, they were all brought down.
3. Pitch Blade: Six level 10 dwarven barbarians. No flying potions. I banned potions and scrolls altogether. Horribly bloody. PC deaths. All six dwarves were killed.
4. Madtooth was madtooth. Two PCs swallowed. Madtooth was eventually overwhelmed.
5. Auric's Warband: Auric, Khelleck, Liam Raknian (a fighter 10 with a mount and lance), and three stone golems. I didn't count the horse as an opponent. This was a long battle, but the PCs eventually won.
You need to start thinking outside the box.
Great- so the PC's have high scores in attack, damage, and AC. Awesome.
Time to start hitting them in the saving throw.
You need to begin attacking PC's in ways they haven't accounted for. Yet.
Let them build up /those/ defenses for a few levels.. and then their AC and such will start to slack.
The process will either begin over again (with you targeting whatever they are ignoring) or the PC's will brighten up abit and start slowly shoring up everything.
Which, of course, costs gads of money and spells and time, and is harder to ward against 4 things than against 1 or 2.
Examples:
Poisons, diseases, breath weapons, (ranged) touch attacks, spells in general.
Next, flip to the section of the DMG that talks about status effects. (i forget what the DMG calls it.. conditions maybe? hrmm). then go to the online SRD and enter those words into the search, to come up with monsters that use them.
Such as: Nauseated. A nauseated character is /hosed/ regardless of his/her AC.
Yes, the PC's (if they survive) will begin the arduous journey of shoring up these defenses but in doing so they will have to let the AC and others begin to catch up to and eventually lag behind their ECL.
Hope that helps some :)
Awesome. I should also recommend completely rebuilding every team your group fights in the games. Those pre-made teams, though interesting and well-made, were doomed to die at the hands of my group. Pitting two dwarven barbarians against my group was laughable. This is the brief on what I came up with:
1. Sentinel Guard: Six fighter types who used shield other and aid another in conjunction with their signature weapons. Their shield phalanx was shattered, and the Guard was defeated.
2. The Order of the Dragon: Six oriental types consisting of three samurai, a sohei, a monk, and a wu jen. One by one, they were all brought down.
3. Pitch Blade: Six level 10 dwarven barbarians. No flying potions. I banned potions and scrolls altogether. Horribly bloody. PC deaths. All six dwarves were killed.
4. Madtooth was madtooth. Two PCs swallowed. Madtooth was eventually overwhelmed.
5. Auric's Warband: Auric, Khelleck, Liam Raknian (a fighter 10 with a mount and lance), and three stone golems. I didn't count the horse as an opponent. This was a long battle, but the PCs eventually won.
How many PCs were in your adventuring party?
Selgard is right about nausea. Look up the angels of decay in Libris Mortis. They have an aura that nauseates, and that aura RUINED my front line brawlers. They moved, did their big damage, and then slinked away retching and puking. They were made into babies with the nausea.
Daze is also big. There's very little that protects against daze effects. I think there's a paladin spell somewhere that renders one immune to daze, but that's it. The war troll from MMIII dazes with every hit (provided the save fails).
Go for ability damage. Assuming death ward hasn't been cast, try waves of exhaustion followed by a ray of enfeeblement (possibly a quickened ray in the same round). That'll knock out any spellcaster and nerf most fighters.
Also, consider altering the terrain, altering the circumstances, altering the atmosphere to make things difficult. Poison the PCs' food (they have to eat) and force a penalty on them (linking that to your story, of course). Find a way to switch out their weapons for mundane varieties (which could lead to a quest to recover those weapons before they are sold). Nerf listen lorecall and blindsense by swarming the PCs with a mob of incorporeal undead (shadows preferably) that can easily flow through objects and dog them even through tight dungeons. Use silence spells a lot and make sure your spellcasters have the silent spell feat. Give all of your large monsters the large and in charge feat. Give your power-attacking monsters a weapon with a wide threat range (like a falchion, preferably keen/imp. crit.), so all they have to do is threaten for the hit.
You might also try to make it more about saving the lives of others rather than the PCs. Give the group people to protect (the spectators of the arena, for example), and take the focus away from their PC's hit points. With my high-level group, I always have to remind them that it's not about them dying, it's about the people they protect dying, which is the real "nightmare scenario" now. PCs can fail miserably and suffer greatly without suffering a single point of damage.
You need to start thinking outside the box.
Great- so the PC's have high scores in attack, damage, and AC. Awesome.
Time to start hitting them in the saving throw.
Your suggestion to stop an arms race is to start a new arms race?
Barry Goldwater, is that you?
How many PCs were in your adventuring party?
There were 6 of them between levels 10 and 11, most of them heavily power-gamed. One was killed and replaced. Another bowed out and was replaced. It's a long story. ;-)
How many PCs were in your adventuring party?There were 6 of them between levels 10 and 11, most of them heavily power-gamed. One was killed and replaced. Another bowed out and was replaced. It's a long story. ;-)
I've got 5 -- of which one is pretty seriously powergamed (the goliath spiked-chain fighter) and another (the scout/ranger with Swift Hunter, where I pointed out the feat to him) is more or less my fault. But then there's the 9th level Augment-Healing Radiant Servant of Pelor, who can cast Mass Cure Light and buff everyone for d8 +10 (Healing domain) +10 (Augment Healing) x 1.5 (Radiant Servant empowered healing), for a minimum of 31 hp and a maximum of 42 hp. That's a WHOLE lot of plinking at the PCs swept away with a single spell.
Awesome. I should also recommend completely rebuilding every team your group fights in the games. Those pre-made teams, though interesting and well-made, were doomed to die at the hands of my group. Pitting two dwarven barbarians against my group was laughable. This is the brief on what I came up with:
1. Sentinel Guard: Six fighter types who used shield other and aid another in conjunction with their signature weapons. Their shield phalanx was shattered, and the Guard was defeated.
2. The Order of the Dragon: Six oriental types consisting of three samurai, a sohei, a monk, and a wu jen. One by one, they were all brought down.
My plan for the first round is more or less the same teams, just upgunned and modified a bit, with the exception of the Sapphire Squad. What's-his-name, the flying ponce with the scimitar, wouldn't have a chance in hell of hitting the PCs. Instead, I'm throwing in a half-human/half-blue dragon fighter-knight of Hieroneous... lawful good and chivalrous as all hell. Oh, and he and his two men-at-arms are mounted warriors with lances to start... *evil grin*
For the second round, that's where the fun starts. I've got this old MageKnight 6"-tall figure of a hill giant wearing a war-harness with dwarves on his back and shoulders, armed to the teeth. So the second round the PCs face "The Five Mountains":
* a surprisingly tall stone giant adolescent wielding a flaming-burst greataxe, whose nickname is "The Boulder". He will be prompted by the dwarves up on his shoulders (well out of normal melee reach for anyone without a reach weapon) to brandish his fiery weapon and spout melodramatic lines like "Can you smell what The Boulder is cooking?"
* Flint and Steel, the two dwarven master crossbowmen perched in cupolas on The Boulder's shoulders.
* Ember, a dwarven priest of Tharmekhul (Fire and Destruction (or War; haven't decided quite yet).
* Master Sand, a malconvoker conjurer. Maybe a multiclassed cleric, as well, to take advantage of the Divine Metamagic summoning possibilities...
I'm still working out the possibilities for round 3 -- my Pitch Blade. Actually, I'm considering replacing the dwarf barbarians with a group called "The Teeth of Kord", including a greatsword-wielding goliath barbarian/cleric who, with the aid of mountain rage and Divine Power, grows to size Huge (effectively Gargantuan due to powerful build), and hammers opponents away with the Power Attack-Knockback combination... *evil grin*
D&D is an arms race. the DM can always win.
The problem becomes when the DM is predicable and the PC's can thus Only arm up to what the DM is throwing at them.
In such instance the DM should start exploring other avenues.
Wise PC's don't have super AC's- to the detriment of everything else. Instead, they increase their power slowly and cover a broad spectrum of things.
their 'over all" power is still the same technically but they shouldn't have one big thing and alot of weak things. At least- not unless they want to end up on the "PC's the DM killed" threads we have on these boards.
the DM here has some options. He can whip out the Wand of Deletion and take it to the PC sheets. Thats certainly valid and is sometimes the only option. (i.e. gee guys, i gave out too much stuff, we need to trim some back so i can get the campaign under control).
What I suggest here however is that the DM instead start attacking them from a different angle. An angle he has, apparently, thus far neglected.
the PC's will either 1) wise up or 2) die. Either way the solution will resolve itself.
-S
I've always found that improved grapple + large creature + touch attacks = easily grappled PCs, often with monsters they don't even get XP for anymore. One ogre minion can often grapple the party fighter, even at level 10. A pair of orc rogues can then sneak attack the crap out of the grappled fighter, likely hitting him much easier.
Thats my personal favorite "wake up, they aren't just throwing rocks at you" move.
I've always found that improved grapple + large creature + touch attacks = easily grappled PCs, often with monsters they don't even get XP for anymore. One ogre minion can often grapple the party fighter, even at level 10. A pair of orc rogues can then sneak attack the crap out of the grappled fighter, likely hitting him much easier.
I'll have to remember that for the remainder of the current segment of Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk I've got them running through at the moment. They bypassed an area (which I hadn't had time to properly prepare and map out and so blocked off with a pit trap), which I'm going to say is full of orcs, goblins, hill giants, and the occasional war troll. : )
I didn't notice this as a problem at lower levels, but I definitely remember it being a problem by the time the players reached higher levels. At that point, it's not so much a problem with the PCs as it is with the game mechanics. The closer PCs get to 20th level, the less effective NPCs with class levels are.
One thing to remember, though, is that there are other ways to damage PCs that don't involve AC. The swords of Kyuss, for example, have their area of effect attack that's like a fireball that does negative energy damage. Also, wormspawn only have to make a touch attack to potentially infest the PCs with worms.
If you're having problems hitting their AC, try to figure out what abilities the monsters have that can completely bypass armor. For example, bull rush checks, disarm checks, grapple checks, saving throws, touch attacks, sunder attempts, and trip checks are all things that can totally screw up players in the middle of combat.
Remember, though, you don't want to become a one trick pony. If you rely completely on grappling to take PCs out of combat, guess what magic item players are all going to start clamoring for? (Hint: It's listed under rings.)
I would urge caution in removing equipment. Even when it only happens once in a while via a rust monster or whatever, it sucks. HARD. And if your players are smart enough to realize that you're specifically targetting equipment, they're likely not going to be too happy. How much magic are you tossing at them? Touch ACs are never going to be as high as regular ACs, and AC doesn't come into play with area spells like Fireball.
Always remember to watch for the natural 1 against AoEs. It happens rarely, so most DMs totally forget about it, but that provokes a chance to destroy gear.
Make a stickynote on your DM screen, it helps a lot. "Nat 1? Gear Check!"
I would urge caution in removing equipment. Even when it only happens once in a while via a rust monster or whatever, it sucks. HARD. And if your players are smart enough to realize that you're specifically targetting equipment, they're likely not going to be too happy. How much magic are you tossing at them? Touch ACs are never going to be as high as regular ACs, and AC doesn't come into play with area spells like Fireball.
I've done so once, and gave the threat of it another time. Basically, when the PCs first pursued Zyrxog into the sewers they immediately ran into a black pudding. Which they tried to cut apart. It blobbed them good and proper, nearly dissolved the bard, toasted a magical flametongue sword, and ate a magical shield before the warmage could kill it with magic.
Later on, I'd refurbed the entirety of the outer encounter in Zyrxog's caverns to be a cabal of fire-based dolgaunt monk assassins with no metal gear and a pet rust monster. The PCs gave it a LOT of room, zotted it with scorching rays, and it fled into the darkness at 3 hp. *grin*
Touch ACs are effective, as I demonstrated to them with some clerical and warlock-y opposition (in the depths of Castle Greyhawk's dungeons), but the usually-enlarged-by-the-wizard goliath-spiked-chain fighter just took the feat Mage Slayer. Which means it's all that much more difficult to challenge them without keeping any spellcasters well in the rear.
Always remember to watch for the natural 1 against AoEs. It happens rarely, so most DMs totally forget about it, but that provokes a chance to destroy gear.
Make a stickynote on your DM screen, it helps a lot. "Nat 1? Gear Check!"
A-ha! Got you... I'll make sure to write myself a note to that effect. Thanks!
Give your power-attacking monsters a weapon with a wide threat range (like a falchion, preferably keen/imp. crit.), so all they have to do is threaten for the hit.
If you're sugesting that a weapon with a 17-20 threat range just needs a natural 17 to hit, note that an automatic hit is still only on a natural 20, not on any critical threat. But I'm not at all sure whether that actually is what you meant, so if not then just disregard this comment.
Anyhow, I feel the OP's pain - I don't know what I was thinking, but for some reason I allowed my players to create their PC's using a 35 point point-buy value! Yes, I said 35, not 25. Insanity. Don't ever do this! Last session they faced a large-ish mob of wights (several with the elite array and one a slaughter wight from Libris Mortis) which I thought they'd find challenging, in the aftermath of the Champion's Games. Nobody even got hit a single time! I'm starting to think maybe I should give everything the elite array as a default, then let any monsters that I actually want to treat as elite have 35 points' worth of ability score like the PC's have. For tonight's session I'm going to use a larger number of advanced, elite wights (including one that's evolved undead templated) than I had planned and see how that goes (this time the terrain should also work for the monsters instead of the PC's like last week - they were traveling on top of the city wall, thus hard to surround)... Of course, doing this to the monsters as statted up in the adventures makes so much extra work... But since they have decided to run around the city instead of fleeing back to Diamond Lake as expected, I'm stuck designing encounters for them anyhow. Not that I mind doing that - what DM does, really?
Kang
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Well you are partially responsible for the ridiculousness of your party's equipment as a DM.
I'd say just have a few opponents get tired of hitting against shields and armor and start sundering.
Also, most magic doesn't care about your AC, so toss in some spell casters, sorcerers, bards, clerics and the like. Dispel Magic is your friend.
(As a side not, Evard's Black Tentacles was clarified by the Sage, you only need to make one successful grapple check against it before the spell is nothing but difficult terrain.)
Anyhow, I feel the OP's pain - I don't know what I was thinking, but for some reason I allowed my players to create their PC's using a 35 point point-buy value! Yes, I said 35, not 25. Insanity. Don't ever do this! Last session they faced a large-ish mob of wights (several with the elite array and one a slaughter wight from Libris Mortis) which I thought they'd find challenging, in the aftermath of the Champion's Games. Nobody even got hit a single time! I'm starting to think maybe I should give everything the elite array as a default, then let any monsters that I actually want to treat as elite have 35 points' worth of ability score like the PC's have. For tonight's session I'm going to use a larger number of advanced, elite wights (including one that's evolved undead templated) than I had planned and see how that goes (this time the terrain should also work for the monsters instead of the PC's like last week - they were traveling on top of the city wall, thus hard to surround)...
*nods* I saw posts to that effect earlier and was planning to at least stat out a few mobs as contingency planning. Of course, I was planning to treat them like swarms, where just being within them meant you took damage and you had to make a Reflex save to avoid taking a negative level. (You thought Fort-save-or-be-nauseated was bad? *evil grin* )
What I'm considering throwing at them for the final piece, assuming the forces of Iuz can't decoy the characters into one of Zagyg's trap-test passages with a major image, is a war troll with 5 levels of monk (along with the Decisive Strike ACF from PHB2), Power Attack, Knockback, and Travel Devotion. "OK, the ripped troll seems to glide across the floor towards you with deceptive smoothness, but in an eyeblink he's right in your face. With a fierce war-cry his fist strikes you like a battering ram and..."
*roll roll roll*
"... you take 46 damage and go flying back 25 feet. Oh, and give me a Fortitude save. Less than 26? OK, you're also dazed for one round..."
Players: "GAAAAAAH RUN AWAY RUN AWAY!"
His nom de guerre? Hammerfist. *evil grin*
*nods* I saw posts to that effect earlier and was planning to at least stat out a few mobs as contingency planning. Of course, I was planning to treat them like swarms, where just being within them meant you took damage and you had to make a Reflex save to avoid taking a negative level. (You thought Fort-save-or-be-nauseated was bad? *evil grin* )
I ought to look up and refresh myself on how those mob rules work, just in case the PC's decide to go off-course on me (again)... Any survivors still alive in the arena are defnitely getting hammered by mobs of wights though. Funny how the weakest living people in the arena will be the boss wights in the end though, since they got turned first and as such had the first chances to turn the more powerful ones who survived the initial blast into their controlled spawn...
Note, however, it turns out the encounter I described above was actually of an EL 2 below the average party level; so not at all so close a match as I had expected it would be. Oops! Figures the one player who answered my email asking for a reminder of their characters' levels would turn out to be the guy who forgot to level up his character a few sessions earlier... No wonder it turned out to be a cakewalk.
For the following session, I didn't actually go with the gang I mentioned above. - Saving that idea for later this week! 3 Slaughter wights, 6 elite-array wights, and one elite-array wight with 4 additional HD and a probably rules-violating permanency'd enlarge person spell left over from his human life turned out to be a much more appropriate challenge - the players had a blast that session, or at least so they told me... particularly the player whose PC will likely be killed on the first action of this week's coming session when we resume that encounter. Must be some kind of masochist or something.
But the point is, my comparison of overly high point-buy values to the too-many-powerful-items issue wasn't as appropriate as I originally thought.
Kang