It was voluntary for me, so much so that I choose not to go through with it.
I rarely pay any funds, rather if needed give of my time or skills.
I guess I can see what you mean, I just can not understand the thought of it being harmful.
Well, we were already pretty deep into Subjectiveland, this doesn't change things much.
For what it's worth, there's not really anything in Taoism that countermands catholic teaching. Practicing it as I do, it's not even really a religion, and there's plenty of common ground to be found. Catholicism does ask a little more of people, though.
Fair enough.
Thanks, Evil Lincoln. You certainly have given me a lot to think about.
While I totally sympathize with the reflexive reaction against mysticism, I don't think it is worth discounting altogether.
I know we moved on from this, but I re-read and something occurred to me. I do not think I discount mysticism out of hand. More of, if I feel the talk is going in circles and instead of straight answers, I get directed to some 'magic', I am more likely to move on to something that makes more sense to me.
I dismiss mysticism when I see no support for it.
I was also thinking about my earlier post regarding same-sex marriage. Maybe it is not my place to 'do' anything about it. I can live my life doing what I believe is right. Is it not the least bit arrogant to think I can change the world? On the other hand, if I am interconnected to everything, I change the world when I change myself.
I know we moved on from this, but I re-read and something occurred to me. I do not think I discount mysticism out of hand. More of, if I feel the talk is going in circles and instead of straight answers, I get directed to some 'magic', I am more likely to move on to something that makes more sense to me.
I dismiss mysticism when I see no support for it.
Hence all my talk of philistines and charlatans ruining perfectly good terminology.
What's amusing is that a lot of times esoteric studies of "magic" in western history touches upon the very same concepts. In the case of Thelema or those zany western magicians, you're looking at a few people who (through drug use I presume) have experienced a "loss of self" and are trying to codify it in language so they can relate it to other people. This is a different approach than is taken with taoism, which spurns such attempts (as we've been discussing).
So what do you get? A bunch of people read about those "magical" experiences, but have no personal experience to drive their interpretations... so they extrapolate batsh*t notions and ruin the party for everyone.
That's where I see the wisdom in the first line of the Laozi. By insisting that personal experience is required, we are supposed to bypass the misinterpretations of existential 13-year-olds (and their mental peers). Or at least, give their interpretations the worthy context.
Heh. I'm a little bitter this morning.
Bitterness leads to anger. Anger leads to the dark side. :)
What's amusing is that a lot of times esoteric studies of "magic" in western history touches upon the very same concepts. In the case of Thelema or those zany western magicians, you're looking at a few people who (through drug use I presume) have experienced a "loss of self" and are trying to codify it in language so they can relate it to other people.
A friend of mine was a real drug fiend in the Seventies. He did more or less everything he could get his hands on and heavily. At one point he recalls being sprawled out on the floor holding the carpet for fear he would fall off. He cleaned up when his kids were born, but achieved the same sense of oneness with the universe and personal transcendence that mystics write about (he was a religion major in college, so he's familiar with the literature) through the use of LSD.
So…how am I Osama bin Laden?
Osama bin Laden attacked the United States because he believes our way of life is wrong. He believes that if he can destroy our way of life, his way of life will persevere. We, on the other hand, attack Osama bin Laden because we believe that his way of life is wrong. We believe that if we can destroy him, and his way of life, our way of life will persevere.
My government has acted with my consent of silence. However, that is a somewhat different discussion.
Before 9/11, I was completely unaware of Osama bin Laden and his way of life. I had no desire to destroy him or his way of life. Just as there are billions of people in the world with different ways of life. As long as they limit the harm their way of life does to others, I am content to let them live it.
Before 9/11, I was completely unaware of Osama bin Laden and his way of life. I had no desire to destroy him or his way of life. Just as there are billions of people in the world with different ways of life. As long as they limit the harm their way of life does to others, I am content to let them live it.
Ah, but how does your way of life hurt others? Do you drive a car? Do you have a cell phone? How much of what you do every day inadvertently hurts others? Does your silence and ignorance excuse it?
P.S. I'm no better.
I am not sure I understand the question.
Allow me a straw man, animals do not build cities. Is building cities, therefore, 'wrong'?
Ah! My young seeker! The crab has a claw, and the butterfly does not. But, this does not imply that the crab is superior or inferior to the butterfly.
To build cities is not within the capabilities of the dog, but the ant and the bee build cities of their own type and are within their nature.
When I first started researching Taoism, I really had a hard time with Wei Wu Wei. I think I still do. How is 'doing nothing' a 'good' philosophy. But now, I think it is not so much 'doing nothing', but being in 'harmony'.
Confusion is the first step in learning.
I think you can build cities in harmony with the world around you.
Did I just answer my own question?
Ultimately we are the only ones who can answer our own questions.
I must lie down. All this enlightenment is quite tiring.
;-)
In service,
Dr. Games
www.drgames.org <-- you want to visit here!
I just came back from my Eastern Philosophy mid-term exam.
We'll see soon enough whether anyone should listen to what I wrote here. :)
Ah! My young seeker! The crab has a claw, and the butterfly does not. But, this does not imply that the crab is superior or inferior to the butterfly.
An excellent point.
I really hate to say, 'but', because it really is a good point, but…could using animals as examples of the tao be like the crab trying to grow wings?
I found this interesting. I certainly had not thought about Jesus' miracles like that before.
I was searching around yesterday and stumbled upon the following quote:
"The most important thing is like a butterfly. Once it is caught it is dead."
This was in response to someone asking what is the most important thing. This really struck a cord with me as I have experienced this in my own life. Everything you grasp at is soon gone. Maybe the physical thing or achievement remains, but it looses its allure.
We want what we can not have.
The grass is always greener.
Buyer's remorse.
Is this attachment to desire? Is attachment fear of change?
I seem to come back to The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People as well. This seems to be worrying over things outside your sphere of influence.
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I was searching around yesterday and stumbled upon the following quote:
"The most important thing is like a butterfly. Once it is caught it is dead."
This was in response to someone asking what is the most important thing. This really struck a cord with me as I have experienced this in my own life. Everything you grasp at is soon gone. Maybe the physical thing or achievement remains, but it looses its allure.
We want what we can not have.
The grass is always greener.
Buyer's remorse.
Is this attachment to desire? Is attachment fear of change?
I seem to come back to The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People as well. This seems to be worrying over things outside your sphere of influence.
Hey welcome back, we have missed you.
Thank you. It is lovely to be missed.
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Here we come a wassailing
Among the leaves so green,
Here we come a wandering
So fair to be seen.
Love and joy come to you,
And to you your wassail too,
And God bless you and send you a happy New Year.
And God send you a happy New Year.
Our wassail cup is made
Of the rosemary tree,
And so is your beer
Of the best barley.
Love and joy come to you,
And to you your wassail too,
And God bless you and send you a happy New Year.
And God send you a happy New Year.
We are not daily beggars
That beg from door to door,
But we are neighbours' children
Whom you have seen before.
Love and joy come to you,
And to you your wassail too,
And God bless you and send you a happy New Year.
And God send you a happy New Year.
Good Master and good Mistress,
As you sit by the fire,
Pray think of us poor children
Are wandering in the mire.
Love and joy come to you,
And to you your wassail too,
And God bless you and send you a happy New Year.
And God send you a happy New Year.
We have a little purse
Made of ratching leather skin;
We want some of your small change
To line it well within.
Love and joy come to you,
And to you your wassail too,
And God bless you and send you a happy New Year.
And God send you a happy New Year.
Call up the Butler of this house,
Put on his golden ring;
Let him bring us a glass of beer,
And the better we shall sing.
Love and joy come to you,
And to you your wassail too,
And God bless you and send you a happy New Year.
And God send you a happy New Year.
Bring us out a table,
And spread it with a cloth;
Bring us out a mouldy cheese,
And some of your Christmas loaf.
Love and joy come to you,
And to you your wassail too,
And God bless you and send you a happy New Year.
And God send you a happy New Year.
God bless the Master of this house,
Likewise the Mistress too;
And all the little children
That round the table go.
Love and joy come to you,
And to you your wassail too,
And God bless you and send you a happy New Year.
And God send you a happy New Year.
Thank you. It is lovely to be missed.Watch out though, the trolls around here have been taking a lot of target practice.
*plugs CJ with a crossbow bolt* Just improving our aim!
Watch out though, the trolls around here have been taking a lot of target practice.
So nothing has changed.
In the sentiment of holiday well wishing, someone wished for me that my road would be clear in the years to come. It was a thoughtful and appreciated wish. However, it occurred to me that I may not want a 'clear' road. An easy path would likely be a boring path (I think CJ and I touched on this previously). An easy path would not give me any pause to consider the path I was on to begin with. It may, in all likelihood, cause me to miss the entire point of the journey.
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In the sentiment of holiday well wishing, someone wished for me that my road would be clear in the years to come. It was a thoughtful and appreciated wish. However, it occurred to me that I may not want a 'clear' road. An easy path would likely be a boring path (I think CJ and I touched on this previously). An easy path would not give me any pause to consider the path I was on to begin with. It may, in all likelihood, cause me to miss the entire point of the journey.
I guess it is better then "May you live in interesting times."
I always thought that was a bit of a non-statement, but I have new perspective of it now.
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.
'May you live forever'?
No, not quite the same. I think that one is always implied as a curse.
This is part of what sent me down the "I don't want a clear road" thought process.
Life has ordure.
When you water your plants, you sometimes have to feed them. Manure is an excellent way to feed plants.
Isn't that funny? Something that is so repellent when stuck to your shoe is so important to sustaining life.
In the fields, everything is saved. Night soil helps things grow. We grow vegetables, eat vegetables, excrete vegetables, and give the waste back to the soil so that vegetables can grow again. Truly, it is said : Everything is only borrowed.
The same is true of the misfortune, failures, and disappointments of life. If we understand the importance of manure, we understand that nothing is truly wasted. Everything can be useful if correctly applied. Therefore, even the bad things in life may become fertilizer that will help us grow and become strong.
Kirth, do you remember the story you told me about the two Buddhist monks and the pretty, young lady? Do you know where I can find more parables like that?
Kirth, do you remember the story you told me about the two Buddhist monks and the pretty, young lady? Do you know where I can find more parables like that?
Hmmm. Zen Flesh, Zen Bones is a pretty good starter set of stories for an interested lay person.
Kirth, do you remember the story you told me about the two Buddhist monks and the pretty, young lady? Do you know where I can find more parables like that?Hmmm. Zen Flesh, Zen Bones is a pretty good starter set of stories for an interested lay person.
That was one of the first Zen books I ever read. A true classic. I would also highly recommend "Zen's Chinese Heritage" by Andrew Ferguson. It is basically a collection of teachings vignettes about each of the Chinese Zen Masters all arranged in chronological order with an introduction about each master.
Namu Myoho Renge Kyo,
Ryuei
Thank you, both of you.
Also, check out the book Zen Speaks by C. C. Tsai (sp?)
Thanks, EL.
How did you do on your exam?
I was looking for specific references to the concept of the Trinity from the Bible. I do not think the Bible ever actually defines the Trinity (correct me if I am wrong there). So I was looking for specific supporting passages.
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I was looking for specific references to the concept of the Trinity from the Bible. I do not think the Bible ever actually defines the Trinity (correct me if I am wrong there). So I was looking for specific supporting passages.
Well honestly, the entire Gospel of John. You may also take a look at the creeds.
The creeds are not in the Bible, are they?
So nothing in the Old Testament?
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The creeds are not in the Bible, are they?
So nothing in the Old Testament?
No the creeds are not. Yes you can read specific instances where GOD is listed as both singular and plural in the same sentence. Genesis is I think the first place. I think it is around verse 25 or 26. I would have to go and check.
Yes you can read specific instances where GOD is listed as both singular and plural in the same sentence. Genesis is I think the first place.
Yes, "Elohim" in Genesis. I'd have to look up the verse number, though.
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No the creeds are not. Yes you can read specific instances where GOD is listed as both singular and plural in the same sentence. Genesis is I think the first place. I think it is around verse 25 or 26. I would have to go and check.The creeds are not in the Bible, are they?
So nothing in the Old Testament?
I posted a reply in the CRD (amidst all the other crap).
For what it's worth, while the creeds are not specifically found in the Bible, they are often kind of a summation of other ideas that are found in the Bible.
Court, I did well! Whatever that's worth. Probably I would do better if I spent less time checking the forums, but hey.
Glad to hear! We all need a vice. Better wasting time on a geek forum than selling drugs on the street corner.
Sorry, HD. :)
So I am back with a new perspective I want to throw against the wall and see what sticks. This may have already been covered. I did not go back and re-read every post. If it was, I apologize.
Life is suffering, correct? That is one of the four noble truths. But is it really? Isn't it suffering and joy where one can not exists without the other. In an attempt to avoid suffering, do you avoid joy as well?
Does all real evil come from arrogance/pride?