Litorians and sibbecai in LoF (and PRPG)


Legacy of Fire


Erik Mona mentioned these two cool races in another thread and I ran close to hijacking this thread, so I continue here:

Erik Mona wrote:
Ptolus is meant to be modular, so it's easy to fit it in just about everywhere. Even in Golarion there's some weird stuff like litorians and sibbecai along the coast of Garund (which is why I suggested Geb). If you don't like those elments even in Ptolus, they are easily ignored.

I asked: ...will we see something "official" in Pathfinder products, namely PRPG-products about litorians and sibbecai? Hopefully I will someday start LoF and I see these two races in it. So will there? :)

with another cry for "official" litorians:

jaaronfarr wrote:
And let me add another vote to Aureus for official Litorian support.

and a reply by James Jacobs:

James Jacobs wrote:
Nope. Golarion's got its races pretty much set in stone at this point, and adding new races to that mix has to be done carefully so that you don't have something where a huge populace appears out of nowhere. Home games, of course, can put any races they want into the world, but the ones we've established right now are pretty much the ones we're sticking with and like the most.

Thanks for the reply Dr. Jacobs.

Not the answer I would have loved to hear, but fair enough. I don't have a problem with no official litorians and sibbecai in golarion. I simply stick with the IIRC "the farther one goes down south, the stranger golarion gets!" rule.

There should be strange, bestial, but civilized humanoids in my LoF-campaign in the shadows of Garund's great cities and ruins. (Once it finally starts)

They should remain mystirous, but exist. I would be hesitant to allow them as PC race. Perhaps they are planar travelers and tie Golarion to the world of Monte Cook. This planar aspect would fit the theme of this AP from what I know at the moment.

Perhaps we can hope for a PRPG version of these two great (new) races! :)

Liberty's Edge

I'm thinking about using the "litorians" as rakasta in the Isle of Dread...not sure yet; in the monster book for Arcana Unearthed they also had a tiger striped litorian kinrace.

Liberty's Edge

Oh,....and Sibeccai might be from Cynocephali...the Land of Dog-Headed Men.


Oh, are there no official rakasta stats in 3.5? In Races of the Wild was the catfolk AFAIK. But litorians are surely great stand ins!

Liberty's Edge

Nope; WOTC wouldn't allow it or something; wanted people to use catfolk. I think the STAP developers didn't want to use them anyway; I think James Jacobs didn't like the "feel" of them in the Isle of Dread for the STAP...
Forgive me if I'm wrong though.

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

I like them both, so I will be using them in Golarion. If I start feeling really motivated, I will put up a supplemental character race document on my blog, as I think that there are several cool races out there that I would allow into my Golarion campaign.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Heathansson wrote:

Nope; WOTC wouldn't allow it or something; wanted people to use catfolk. I think the STAP developers didn't want to use them anyway; I think James Jacobs didn't like the "feel" of them in the Isle of Dread for the STAP...

Forgive me if I'm wrong though.

Correct; the rakastas were just one weird race too many for my tastes for the Isle of Dread. Aranea, phanatons, troglodytes, and lizardfolk were enough for me.


If Paizo discourages bringing Litorians to Katapesh, why not bring Katapesh to them?

Personally, I can easily see LoF converted to Arcana Evolved. Whether you keep Gnolls or replace them with Rhodin, I can see a definate reason for Litorian PCs to get involved. Not only that, but the Pactmasters, with their aura of mystery, remind me of the Jerran mentioned in the Diamond Throne setting. Or perhaps you can have the Litorians meet Katapesh on neutral ground?

In other words, why don't you divorce the region of Katapesh from the rest of Golarion and just run it with your own world assumptions? Part of what makes Golarion appeal to so many people is that it is modular. Each country has a theme and most APs and modules only touch on one nation, so they can be ported to any other world with little difficulty.

I myself have been running Pathfinder adventures (parts of RotRL, Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale, Crucible of Chaos, and The Third Riddle) in my own homebrew 3.5/Arcana Evolved hybrid setting, and I play in an Eberron game using the PFRPG beta rules, which started with The Silent Tide. Sure, there's no official support for this sort of thing, but there is no official condemnation either.

If you are a fan of Litorians, you might also be interested to know that Rite Publishing (which sells .pdfs of their products through the Paizo store) is currently working on an AE sourcebook focusing on the Litorians. It is an "Open Design style" project, meaning that they are looking for patrons who will provide financial backing and input on the process of creating the book.

-C. Robert Brown


Not Pathfinder Compatible but pure Arcana Evolved (OGL) source material that could easily be adapted:

Litorians: A Patronage Project

Thought you might enjoy it

Steve D. Russell
Rite Publishing


Yeah! I've just seen this one! Thanks for the link anyway!

If I had the money, I would be more than glad to join the project. The litorians are really turning into my favorite new race or non core race. :)

BTW does anybody know if one can buy these open design projects later on (when one has some money to spend)?

The Exchange

I'll have to check when I get home, but IIRC there was a Dragon Magazine article with Rakasta stats for 3E or 3.5. I know for sure there was one about Lupins in another issue.


Humm just a question here, but if ya was to update Litorians to pathfinder where would you gain the extra +2?

I was leaning toward Cha, mostly do to strong personalty and such.


I suppose you could make a good argument for +2 Cha, but somehow I just don't see Litorians excelling as bards, paladins and sorcerers, not that those wouldn't be cool characters, just that it isn't their usual leaning. As obvious candidates for Barbarian, Fighter, Druid, Ranger and Rogue, I think they would probably get much more utility out of a +2 bonus to Wisdom. I realize that in Arcana Evolved, the Litorians have a wisdom penalty, but there's no real justification for it in the flavor text, and the Ptolus version of Litorians doesn't have a wis penalty (or any penalties at all beyond +1 LA).

My thoughts on a Litorian conversion can be found here:

Edit: Okay, inserting a link to the other thread didn't seem to work properly, so I'm just going to repost my comments from the "Converting AE races to Pathfinder" thread behind a spoiler.

Spoiler:
First of all, I think that one of the things that needs to be made clear when converting between AE and Pathfinder is that the design goals are completely different. AE races often have penalties that seem to defy their descriptions in flavor text, making them suboptimal at the classes they are supposed to prefer. Pathfinder races, however, are geared toward certain choices with the double whammy of ability score bonuses and favored classes. One encourages you to play a certain race/class combo, the other encourages you to play something that is suboptimal for flavor reasons. I'm not saying either is wrong, just that the difference in attitude needs to be considered when moving from one to another.

So let's consider what Litorians are supposed to be like in terms of flavor and work from there. They are a tribal, nomadic culture, with a focus on honor and the hunt, and their racial weapons are a bola (ranged) and a double-ended club. After their racial levels, they have +4 Dex, +1 Con, +1 Str, +10 to their groundspeed, a bite attack, and Scent. In Ptolus, Litorians are presented as an LA+1 race with +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, and favored class Ranger. Now, since Monte was using Ptolus as his setting for years before AU came out, I'm going to assume that those stats are the originals. This, combined with the flavor issues of the wisdom penalty makes me thing it should be dropped. Since they are a primitive culture, and unlikely to be Wizards, I think that Int is the least likely to really detract from their flavor.

My preference:

Litorian
Medium Humanoid
+2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int
Base Speed: 30 feet
Low light vision
+2 to Intimidate,and Survival checks
Keen Senses: Litorians enjoy a +2 bonus to all sight, sound, and scent based Perception checks.
Weapon Familiarity: Litorians treat all weapons with the word "litorian" in the name as martial weapons.
Hatred: Litorians enjoy a +1 bonus to all attack rolls against gnolls and flinds.*
Scent Litorians gain the scent extraordinary ability**
Favored Class: Ranger or Druid
Languages: Common, Litorian
Bonus Languages: Sylvan, Gnoll

*Assuming you don't bring over the Rhodin from AE, it just makes sense for Lion-people to hate hyena and jackal people, especially since they probably live in the same areas.

** if you think giving a base race the scent ability is a bit extreme, consider that AE has a 1st level spell that grants scent to casters. The ability is both not spectacularly powerful and not all that uncommon. YMMV of course, so feel free to replace this with natural bite or claw attacks or increasing the base speed to 40ft.

-C. Robert Brown


Well the - to wis was odd for me to. I don't play AE and what I know comes from an SRD.

I do like some of what you have done I Would kill the scent and weapon familiarity other then that looks good


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
I do like some of what you have done I Would kill the scent and weapon familiarity other then that looks good

Thanks. FWIW, I have been running Arcana Unearthed/Evolved games since 2003; and while I often convert Paizo material for use with AE, I'm less adept at doing the reverse. Frankly, I'm not a fan of racial weapon familiarity or proficiencies, or the plethora of incredibly specific situational bonuses that D&D races seem to have. So if the Litorian above seems a bit much, it's just me overcompensating for what I perceive as the overabundance of extra little powers that D&D races seem to have compared to AE. *glares at the dwarf*

In any case, I just like to try and be helpful when it comes to people discussing my favorite flavor of d20...it happens so rarely, afterall.

Edit: I should probably note however, that I do *play* 3.5 D&D and Pathfinder both on a weekly basis, I just prefer to use AE for the games I DM.

-C. Robert Brown

Liberty's Edge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Subscriber

Robert - Thanks for the write up. I was thinking something very similar. I like the Druid/Ranger preferred classes along with the hatred of gnolls.

Steve - Thanks for the Litorian link. I am thinking about signing up!

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Hmm,

Looking at the Sibbecai origins in AE, would it be appropriate to use something similar? Maybe Jackals 'lifted up' by Desna into Sibbecai to oppose Lamashtu's gnolls?

Really, I don't see much need to change them statwise/racial level wise. We already have paragon classes from UA.


@Robert Ranting:

I really really like your take on the PRPG litorian!

Without your knowledge and eceperience with the rules and prodects from Malhavoc Press, I would modify to the following:

Litorian
Medium Humanoid
+2 Dex, +2 Str, -2 Int
Base Speed: 40 feet*
Low light vision
+2 to Intimidate and Survival checks
Keen Senses: Litorians enjoy a +2 bonus to all sight, sound, and scent based Perception checks.
Weapon Familiarity: Litorians treat all weapons with the word "litorian" in the name as martial weapons.
Hatred: Litorians enjoy a +1 bonus to all attack rolls against gnolls and flinds.
Favored Class: Ranger
Languages: Common, Litorian
Bonus Languages: Sylvan, Gnoll

*Although I am pretty unsure wether this is balanced!

Thank you verrry much, so far!


well pathfinder gives 2 plus one to either , Str, Dex or Con. And one to Int, Wis or Cha.

I would not give str and dex as that is not how the core races are set up. I do like dex and wis for the + and Int for the -


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
well pathfinder gives 2 plus one to either , Str, Dex or Con. And one to Int, Wis or Cha.I would not give str and dex as that is not how the core races are set up.-

Seekerofshadowlight is correct, Pathfinder as a default assumes one physical bonus, one mental bonus, and a penalty for ability scores. Generally the physical ability bonuses and penalties are unchanged from 3.x, while the mental ability score bonus corresponds to the casting stat of the favored casting class. This is essentially an effort to make every race equally likely to be some form of caster as well as some sort of melee/stealth class.

That said, you don't have to agree with that philosophy in your home game, if you are the DM, you can change whatever you like. However, if you are going to make Litorians more physically oriented, consider doing the same with the other "classic fighter races", the Dwarf and Half-Orc so that they remain equally appealing choices for Fighters and Barbarians.

However, I do stand by my +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int modifiers, as it makes them quite excellent rangers, which is perfect for a hunting culture.

-C. Robert Brown


Matthew Morris wrote:
Hmm,Looking at the Sibbecai origins in AE, would it be appropriate to use something similar? Maybe Jackals 'lifted up' by Desna into Sibbecai to oppose Lamashtu's gnolls?

Well, the internet saw fit to eat my last attempt at posting, so we’ll give this another try.

My thought on the origins of the Sibeccai in Golarion is that they were originally servants of Curchanus, the god of beasts, uplifted or crafted in the image of one of his favored animals, the jackal. When Lamashtu slew Curchanus, she took on the form of the Jackal and birthed the Gnoll race as a mockery of Curchanus and his legacy. Many Sibeccai submitted to her rule, accepting that she had taken control of their “pack”, and thus intrebred with the Gnolls to produce the more “jackal-like” as opposed to “hyena-like” Gnolls that appear in some Pathfinder art

Those who did not submit to Lamashtu turned to other gods for salvation. In particular, many Sibeccai worship Desna as their patron. As a result most Sibeccai put great stock in dreams (as do those in AE), and live in small packs or traveling caravans that wander across Garund (and perhaps Casmaron and Vudra). With their racial bonuses to Diplomacy and Stealth, they live on the fringes of society, obtaining what they can by hook or by crook, and attempting to avoid both gnolls and those who would mistake them for gnolls (violently).

However, some Sibeccai have managed to integrate with more cosmopolitan societies, such as Katapesh, where their Gnoll-like appearance is less of a bane. These Sibeccai seek to increase their prestige within their adopted societies by associating themselves with powerful organizations, whether they be military units, merchant guilds, criminal syndicates or churches with a more concrete hierarchy than Desna’s.

However, since Sibeccai gravitate naturally toward so many classes (Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Rogue) it is hard for me to choose favored classes and thus, a mental ability score bonus for them. +2 Cha and Bard? +2 Wis and Cleric? +2 Cha and Cleric? (Channel energy is Cha based, after all.) Thoughts?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Ooh, I like your ideas better than mine.

I'd lean towards Bard/Cleric myself. Paladin doesn't lend itself as easily with Desna being CG, and I'm not sure I like Rogue as a class option.


Personally, I generally assume the Sibeccai are very sneaky. I mean, their racial skill bonuses in AE are to Gather Information (learning secrets) Inuendo (communicating secretly) and Sneak (moving secretly).
The Sibeccai are also portrayed as sneaky in the various media Malhavoc has produced. The iconic Sibeccai in AE is a lockpicking Akashic. The Sibeccai PC in Monte's second Ptolus campaign was a Cleric/Rogue. In the fiction anthologies, the two major sibeccai characters are a politician and a high ranking member of an thief/assassin's guild.

IMC, I've seen a Sibeccai Bard, an Iron Witch (who was the party locksmith), an Akashic (ditto), a Mageblade (part of an urban campaign that had a lot of sneaking) and a Wolverine Totem Warrior (TWF sneaky terror). The Totem Warrior aside, all of these are very much like the bard in that they mix skills, magic, and melee combat in some fashion.

So I guess the question is what is their other favored class, assuming that they have +2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Int?

-C. Robert Brown

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

I was thinking Bard because they don't get enough love, and their bonuses are geared towards the social/spy circut.

Cleric because of stat bonuses and their connection to a deity in the pathfinderization.


One: I agree with Robert on the wisdom issue, its already created a debate amongst our designers.

Aureus: It will be open for patronage the entire time we are producing it, and it will go on sale as a retail product at the exact same price as a patronage, and you get none of the extras. Of course we have to meet the threshold goal for that to happen.

Mr. Baron: Thanks.

Liberty's Edge

Qwilion wrote:

One: I agree with Robert on the wisdom issue, its already created a debate amongst our designers.

Aureus: It will be open for patronage the entire time we are producing it, and it will go on sale as a retail product at the exact same price as a patronage, and you get none of the extras. Of course we have to meet the threshold goal for that to happen.

Mr. Baron: Thanks.

I know I knwo, still deciding...

yet the Paizocon fanzine still needs more support :S


Robert Ranting:

Taking from AE their love of urban life so I would go with the bard.

Montvale: We paid for an ad to help out the fanzine (for our eventual pathfinder compatible patronage project), so you can come join Litorians :)


Robert Ranting wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
well pathfinder gives 2 plus one to either , Str, Dex or Con. And one to Int, Wis or Cha.I would not give str and dex as that is not how the core races are set up.-

Seekerofshadowlight is correct, Pathfinder as a default assumes one physical bonus, one mental bonus, and a penalty for ability scores. Generally the physical ability bonuses and penalties are unchanged from 3.x, while the mental ability score bonus corresponds to the casting stat of the favored casting class. This is essentially an effort to make every race equally likely to be some form of caster as well as some sort of melee/stealth class.

That said, you don't have to agree with that philosophy in your home game, if you are the DM, you can change whatever you like. However, if you are going to make Litorians more physically oriented, consider doing the same with the other "classic fighter races", the Dwarf and Half-Orc so that they remain equally appealing choices for Fighters and Barbarians.

However, I do stand by my +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int modifiers, as it makes them quite excellent rangers, which is perfect for a hunting culture.

-C. Robert Brown

Of course, you are both right, Robert and Seeker! And your arguments for Wisdom just make sence.


Qwilion wrote:

Aureus: It will be open for patronage the entire time we are producing it, and it will go on sale as a retail product at the exact same price as a patronage, and you get none of the extras. Of course we have to meet the threshold goal for that to happen.

Mr. Baron: Thanks.

Good to know! Either I get the money early to get a patronage or I will get the money later and buy the final product, but the project is really really intereting! Thank you, Qwilion.

EDIT: Oh, and am I right reading from your posts it will be fully (not 3.5 OGL) PRPG compatible?

Dark Archive

My attempt at Pathfinderizing the Arcana Unearthed races is here.

I tried to work in the racial levels as a series of feats that a member of each race could take (or not) as they pleased, and changed the racial attribute modifiers in most cases to suit the new +2, +2, -2 paradigm.


So how would you build the Sibeccai and the Giants and such from Diamond Throne et al ? :) Mr. Ranting ? :)

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