TWF useful for a sword and board straight fighter?


Advice

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I'll be shortly playing the Kingmaker campaign and wish to play a S&B fighter.

However, I'm torn between choosing TWF at first level (or even at later levels). It seemed like the obvious choice... until I noticed that a heavy shield counts as a heavy weapon, thus giving huge penalties.

It seems to me that TWF as S&B gives me a bit more Oomph, at the cost of:
- Several feats (although the fighter is not feat-starved, TWF with a shield needs a whole lot of them to be useful)
- Not getting weapon focus/spe for both hands
- Lower AC (since I have to use a light shield)
- Lower attack rolls (even with a light shield, it's still -2/-2)

A human fighter level 4 has 6 feats. He could either go

TWF path
Two-weapon fighting, double slice, imp shield bash, shield focus, weapon focus (scimitar), weapon spe (scimitar)

Regular path
Dodge, shield focus, weapon focus (scimitar), weapon spe (scimitar), power attack, cleave (or iron will, or whatever).

First scenario, my full-round is (with 18 str)
+7 (4 bab + 4 str + 1 focus - 2 twf) for 1d6+6 damage
+6 (4 bab + 4 str - 2twf) for 1d4+4 damage

Second scenario, I can power attack for 2 (in order to have the same to-hit)
+7 (4 bab + 4 str + 1 focus - 2 PA) for 1d6+10 damage
I also have 2 more AC (from dodge and bigger shield) and can choose not to power attack against deft dodgers. I also win when I don't have a full-round.

So please, please, tell me I'm wrong, tell me you can build an effective fighter who bashes stuff with his shield. I know things get better after level 11, but I don't want to feel useless through half of Kingmaker.


I'm doing a S&B phalanx fighter in The Serpent's Skull, and while the first couple levels did suck, I felt like i was doing better at level 3, and level 6 was a huge jump when you can pick up shield slam.

Caveat's being that the group I play with aren't a table of min/maxers. There isn't even a summoner in the party. I believe I have the highest AC in the party at a 22. So they still look to me to be the tank and take the big hits, while outputting damage.

I don't know if you're playing with a group of friends or strangers, but i usually say play what you like more.


I am no expert at optimization. Others will chime in with some more to say. But I once read one of those optimization guides which makes a strong case for a TWF S&B fighter....so long as kicking ass is the aim.

The idea is to stick to light spiked shields and balance power with defense. First Weapon specialization goes to close weapons (shields, fists and punching daggers!).

Only fighters with lots of feats can make this truly work well it seems.

I think a big, athletic, human TWF S&B Fighter would be an awesome melee combatant. I'd love to play one.

Here's the guide:Eidolon's Fighter Guide.


I don't think there's anything stopping you from using a large shield and a light 2nd weapon. Btw. yes go for TWF if you want to use a shield, the ac alone is not worth it. Also pick this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fig hter-archetypes/two-weapon-warrior archetype


I think you would be better served by going with Feats like Shield Focus instead. Focus on your AC because you're going to get way more mileage out of it. And remember, if you really want to, you can always attack with your shield instead of you sword (if needs be.)

The Shield TWF'er can be done well, but the tax is high.


Erikkerik wrote:
I don't think there's anything stopping you from using a large shield and a light 2nd weapon. Btw. yes go for TWF if you want to use a shield, the ac alone is not worth it. Also pick this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fig hter-archetypes/two-weapon-warrior archetype

You mean I can use a heavy shield as my main weapon and a short sword in my other hand ?

Does that work by RAW ? That would solve most of my problems.


I would say, use a light spiked shield, with Shield Focus and TWF as your starting feats. Then you have the options for TWFing or just using the shield defensively and you are not crippled at either option.


i think you have the basis of a good build there, and as you level it only gets better. the high strength, high crit main hand and a spiked light shield in the off hand is a solid damage combo. when you get shield mastery, switch to an enchanted heavy spiked shield of bashing...should put you at a 2d6 with an offhand weapon that has no penalties. Weapon training heavy blades and close as your first two weapon training options

Two weapon warrior archetype is okay, but my personal opinion is to not give up armor training for the one round dodge bonus. You want to get as much out of your plate as soon as possible, and since you are looking at a 19 dexterity, armor training is huge early.

Also look into quick draw/power attack. It is for those times when you can charge, then drop as a free, and draw as a free, that way you get your big swat in with a two hander and then immediately become a whirling ball of steel

Dark Archive

You're doing it wrong; go board and board.

Heavy shield/light shield. Now you get the AC and extra damage of the heavy shield, and weapon focus / specialty apply to both hands.

Like Captain America, with two shields!


Most of the offensive shield feats require TWF. You can probably pass on the upgrades if you want to use your shield as your primary weapon or if you want to go critical crazy when you get bashing finish.

A phalanx fighter will usually see TWF as a useless tax feat, but one of the shield feats lets you bull rush for free with a shield bash which will put any enemy that gets past your polearm back in its range bracket for you to take the rest of your attacks.

Scarab Sages

^this

Take either the Two-Weapon Fighter archetype or the Brawler Archetype. YMMV

Edit: Was too late! Go for Board and Board, or possibly even something like a Cestus or other close combat weapon. Scimitars are great, but not necessary :P


Here is a TWF sword and board fighter I created for a RotR campaign.

Sovereign Court

Its pretty much the most feat intensive path ever (so human is recommended) but it does end up very powerful.

Advice also depends what point buy your on (or how good your dice rolls were). Its hard to make it work on 15 or less.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

It's perfectly do able. I too, am currently running a S&B fighter(bastard sword and heavy spiked steel sheild) through Kingmaker. Low levels were a bit more miss than hit when it came to TWF, especially with some of the bosses. Some of this was due to the penalties that I was taking for using two heavy weapons and some was due to the dice gods not being particularly friendly. Though with Imp Shield Bash to maintain shield ac during combat my ac has always been relatively high and once I got plate i have had the highest ac in the party.

In most combats I hold my own and while I don't do quite as much damage as the 2H paladin I don't get hit as often either, and occasionally the dice gods are kind and I become a whirlwind of steely death.

One thing I would suggest is to go over the FAQ's as there are several that deal with TWF fighting.

and just for comparison these are my attack mods at 10th lvl twf:
bastard sword +16/+11 for 1d10+14
hvy spiked shield +15/+10 for 1d6+10


Jaxom: Thanks for your build. From a pure optimizing standpoint, I guess my question would be: what if you had taken dodge and power attack instead of Improved shield bash and TWF ?

You would get 2 more AC (which is a lot at low level) and your attack would be +7 for 1d8+7 instead of +6 (1d8+5) +4 (1d4+2).

Assuming a mob with 16 AC, the average damage of non-TWF would be 60% x 11,5 or 6,9 damage per round.

The average damage of TWF would be 55% of 9,5 + 45% of 4,5 which is an average of 7,2 damage per round.

If you cannot make a full-attack, the non-TWF flat-out wins.
So, apart from taking pleasure in throwing many dice (and I do realize it's part of the fun ^^), isn't it a weaker build as a whole ?

Dracomancer: How do you fare against monsters with DR ? How much more did it cost you to enchant both your weapons ? Could you perhaps post your feats ?

Still trying to decide which route to go.

Grand Lodge

Check out thunderstriker,rondelero duelist, and shielded fighter they all can be very effective shield basher.I am going to try out a thunderstriker with bastard sword as my next pc in a korvosa game.


fasthd97 wrote:
Check out thunderstriker,rondelero duelist, and shielded fighter they all can be very effective shield basher.I am going to try out a thunderstriker with bastard sword as my next pc in a korvosa game.

Yeah, shielded fighter is an interesting option.

Thunderstriker and rondolero duelist are a mystery to me. Could you perhaps explain their abilities ? I don't really understand their worth.

For Thunderstriker:
- Strapped shield allows me to have a buckler and use a 2H weapon without penalty to offense, right ? How is that helpful ? I don't get the shield bonus, so...
- As for his other abilities, what's the point ? It only puts the buckler on par with a regular shield. Is it so you can dual-wield a buckler and a Greatsword ? I'm really confused.

For rondolero:
- Same thing, what's the point of using a buckler anyway ?
- You use falcata, it's not even a 2h weapon, why not use a light shield ?

I don't understand a damn thing.


Threatened wrote:
Erikkerik wrote:
I don't think there's anything stopping you from using a large shield and a light 2nd weapon. Btw. yes go for TWF if you want to use a shield, the ac alone is not worth it. Also pick this: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fig hter-archetypes/two-weapon-warrior archetype

You mean I can use a heavy shield as my main weapon and a short sword in my other hand ?

Does that work by RAW ? That would solve most of my problems.

Yeah, and your heavy spiked bashing shield is your main weapon (2d6 damage) and you want cleave/cleaving finish as soon as you can get them. You also want mighty cleaving on your shield ASAP. This will enable you to run up to two adjacent enemies and strike one, then cleave twice on the other guy due to your enchantment.

Your main hand is for a kukri. High threat range will later (with certain feats) give you more shield strikes, which will in turn generate more cleaving goodness.

As far as I am concerned TWF is a nice bonus. The big shield is where it's at :-)

Grand Lodge

The thunderstriker and the rondelero both get to bash with smaller shields and get to use decent sized weapons in the off hand.Both also at some level get to use their shield as a weapon and not lose their ac bonus.With thunderstriker you can use a greatsword and bash with the offhand by 7th level I think. I dont have my books handy though.The rondelero gets better much earlier but is restricted to falcata and buckler.


something important to factor in is that one of your first magic item investments should be to get that shield enchanted with +1 and bashing making it throw a better damage dice with that shield and with a nice easy enhancement bonus. It does take a little while to really get rolling, but oncei t does your throwing good dps without really comprimising your AC.

Asta
PSY


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

For a sword & board two-weapon style fighter, I'd recommend the mobile fighter archetype over the two-weapon warrior archetype. The mobile fighter archetype keeps Armor Training 1 and 2, which means they can wear medium and heavy armor without penalizing speed (medium armor at 3rd, heavy armor at 7th); also, IMO Rapid Attack (mobile fighter) at 11th is better than Doublestrike (two-weapon warrior) at 9th. Improved Balance (two-weapon warrior) is nice, allowing use of a heavy shield in the off-hand as if it were a light weapon, but not that nice.

At 1st level, a fighter with Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting, and a light spiked shield (1d4 damage) makes a pretty decent combatant. One thing to keep in mind: Greater Two-weapon Fighting is not necessary for most two-weapon fighting characters; a starting Dex of 16 and a +1 Dex at 4th level (17 Dex total), is all that you really need, especially with a mobile fighter (+3 Max Dex Bonus and no penalty to speed from full plate with Armor Training 1 and 2). Other than getting 17 Dex to qualify for Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, you can concentrate on increasing Str for the attack roll and damage bonuses, take Power Attack, etc.


Don't forget that at 11th level that pesky penalty disappears with the feat Shield Master. That feat really is the key to being a sword and board. If you don't take that feat, then you have to enchant your shield twice, once for defense, once for offense. A +5 shield of bashing acts as a +1 weapon, but with Shield Master it acts as a +5 weapon.

Sword and Board is kind of a hobby for me when it comes to creating characters, I've got a couple that are interesting and, unfortunately, 20th level builds so not applicable here unless one wanted to see the end result. I have one character who is a Board and Board tank that isn't my own build, but was built following prototype00's design. The thread it was posted in can be found here.


Hooray, I was influential!


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Tels wrote:
Don't forget that at 11th level that pesky penalty disappears with the feat Shield Master. That feat really is the key to being a sword and board. If you don't take that feat, then you have to enchant your shield twice, once for defense, once for offense. A +5 shield of bashing acts as a +1 weapon, but with Shield Master it acts as a +5 weapon.

Re-read the Shield Master feat.

The feat removes the two-weapon fighting penalty for attacks with the shield, not all attacks. For weapon & shield fighting, you still take penalties on the attacks with the weapon (usually more damaging, when counting the effects of criticals).

It's a good feat, on par with Two-Weapon Rend (also a feat just about any character with two-weapon fighting should consider), but it's not that good.


That makes dual-shielding even more desirable.


can you two hand wield a shield?

Dark Archive

I dm'ed a game where a player did this. He ended up being nearly unhittable except with touch attacks. His damage did suffer, though. Just remember it's a tradeoff. You will either do great damage and have so so AC, or be an inpenetrable tank that does ok damage.


Vuvu wrote:
can you two hand wield a shield?

Totally.

I lend my support to board and board, or at least a heavy shield mainhand and a light Close Weapon offhand.


At some point I am going to make a single shield wielder! No idea how to best make that work, but it is happening. And I don't mean Cpt America style, throwing it and all that. Just a slightly frightened warrior.

He really doesn't like pain, especially getting his knuckles wrapped, so he hold onto his shield for dear life and bashes away with it.

I know it is a little thread hijackery but any suggestions for it? Might be a fun PFSer

Dark Archive

You can't two-hand a shield; or at least, not and get the shield bonus. Old thread.


Vuvu wrote:

At some point I am going to make a single shield wielder! No idea how to best make that work, but it is happening. And I don't mean Cpt America style, throwing it and all that. Just a slightly frightened warrior.

He really doesn't like pain, especially getting his knuckles wrapped, so he hold onto his shield for dear life and bashes away with it.

I know it is a little thread hijackery but any suggestions for it? Might be a fun PFSer

Check the free-hand fighter archetype and see if you could do it with a light shield.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Threatened wrote:

Dracomancer: How do you fare against monsters with DR ? How much more did it cost you to enchant both your weapons ? Could you perhaps post your feats ?

I don't remember if we have faced a lot of monsters with DR. Based just on the math I would be pushing some damage through most DR's. If it were a situation where I wasn't able to be overly effective in a combat then I would try to draw attacks and help provide flanking for the paladin with the great axe. As for costs for weapons I think my current +1 sword was loot so kinda free. As for the shield it is enchanted as both a +1 weapon and +2 shield so some what more expensive than normal. But our cleric is a craft arms and armor person so can mitigate the costs somewhat.

Here are my feats.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Sword, Bastard
Improved Shield Bash
Improved Two-weapon Fighting
Leadership
Power Attack
Shield Slam
Toughness
Two-weapon Fighting
Weapon Focus: Shield, Heavy
Weapon Focus: Sword, Bastard
Weapon Specialization: Shield, Heavy
Weapon Specialization: Sword, Bastard


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TWF is a cool style that has a couple of traits.
1. A TWF done right will outdamage a 2 hander on a full attack.
2. A two hander will outdamage a TWF'r on a standard action attack.

Now to make TWF worth the investment we need to pump point 1. Awesome full attacks.and negate the problem with point 2. Doing crappy damage on standard action attacks.

Now the solution we come up with depends on what archetype you pick and what weapons you wield.

Now, lets work on point 2 first.
People make this claim because they assume the comparision is a brute 2 handing a greatsword vs a TWF'r one handing a sword/scimitar.
This comparison doesn't have to be true.
Now some archetypes get a class ability which lets you make multiple attacks on a standard action strike. Noteably the Two Weapon Warrior who can make a Primary/ Offhand attack at level 9.
The Dawnflower Dervish and the Mobile Fighter get Rapid Attack at 11, giving up thier first attack and making all the rest of thier iteratives whenever they move.

These are awesome abilities, but 9 or 11 levels is a long wait.
Our solution at level 1-5 is when you move, [b]2 hand just like the other guy.[b]

Meaning either use a double weapon or pair a Weapon/Offhand Cestus or pair a Weapon and a Quickdraw light shield.

Example1. Our half elf wields a doublesword to TWF when he full attacks, and Two Hand Power attacks with it if he has to move. This costs EWP feat but has the advantage of never falling behind the Greatsword guy and all my wpn fcs/spl apply to both ends of my double weapon.

Example2. My human TWF can either TWF with a Scimitar/Cestus or if he needs to move he can 2 hand power attack.with the Scimitar. The TWW gets his wpn training equally to any weapon so long as he twf's so the cestus only misses out on Wpn fcs/spl till level 9, when you switch to Scimitar/Kukri and can TWF as a standard action. At 11 when improved balance comes in go with 2 scimitars.and make Gtr wpn fcs/spec finally apply to both hands.
Th advantge here is you didn't waste a feat on the double sword and you have a greater crit range.

Example 3. This is a little cheesy but it is legal. If you wanna sword and board, take quickdraw early and get a Quickdraw light shield. Now if you did a twf full attack and the guy moves, on your turn you can: Free action stow the shield, run up and 2 hand power attack with your sword, then quickdraw your shield again. Between wpn fcs, quickdraw, TWF and Imp shieldbash the earliest a human can pull this off is level 4. Plus your dm will hate you.
A Rondelero Duelist doesn't need quickdraw, but has to burn a feat on a falcata so =/=

Pick one of those methods and Stick to it. Solves point 2. Now moving doesn't suck.

Now on full attacks, You will outdamage the 2 hand guy on full attacks buy about 10-20% based purely on having more iteratives. In my book that's not good enough. You're spending between 5-8 feats on this so it should blow 2 handers away.

How do we do it? 1. Have a means to pin a foe (so you can full attack more). Pindown/Dazing Assault/Stunning Assault is the best option for this.

2. Fish for Criticals so you're burst damage can blow him away.
That's why we duel wield scimitars for TWWarriors.
Or Falcata/Bucklers for Rondelero
Or Scimitar/Shield

Now finally on Gtr TWFing and Doubleslice. Gtwf is ok for fighters duel wielding the same weapon. Gtr Wpn Fcs+ Wpn training means it actually has a decent chance to hit.
If using a shield take Bashing Finish instead.

Doubleslice kinda sucks at low levels. Adds bugger all damage to 1 offhand attack that you won't get to make all the time. Take cleave and retrain it at 8 or 12. Doubleslice is only taken cause.it's needed.for.TWRend.

Whew!


I've been playing around a lot with different fighter builds for badguys the party fights in my home game.

The strongest fighter todate has been the defense heavy sword and shield guy without two weapon fighting. The damage is still scary and the party has a hard time hitting him back. I even dump strength to 14 so he can have a good wisdom, tag iron will and one or two ranged weapon feats on - nothing has been harder for them to deal with.


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Vuvu wrote:

At some point I am going to make a single shield wielder! No idea how to best make that work, but it is happening. And I don't mean Cpt America style, throwing it and all that. Just a slightly frightened warrior.

He really doesn't like pain, especially getting his knuckles wrapped, so he hold onto his shield for dear life and bashes away with it.

I know it is a little thread hijackery but any suggestions for it? Might be a fun PFSer

Reminds me of Eric the Cavalier from the old Dungeons and Dragons cartoon


STR Ranger wrote:

TWF is a cool style that has a couple of traits.

1. A TWF done right will outdamage a 2 hander on a full attack.
2. A two hander will outdamage a TWF'r on a standard action attack.

Now to make TWF worth the investment we need to pump point 1. Awesome full attacks.and negate the problem with point 2. Doing crappy damage on standard action attacks.

Now the solution we come up with depends on what archetype you pick and what weapons you wield.

Now, lets work on point 2 first.
People make this claim because they assume the comparision is a brute 2 handing a greatsword vs a TWF'r one handing a sword/scimitar.
This comparison doesn't have to be true.
Now some archetypes get a class ability which lets you make multiple attacks on a standard action strike. Noteably the Two Weapon Warrior who can make a Primary/ Offhand attack at level 9.
The Dawnflower Dervish and the Mobile Fighter get Rapid Attack at 11, giving up thier first attack and making all the rest of thier iteratives whenever they move.

These are awesome abilities, but 9 or 11 levels is a long wait.
Our solution at level 1-5 is when you move, 2 hand just like the other guy.[b]

Meaning either use a double weapon or pair a Weapon/Offhand Cestus or pair a Weapon and a Quickdraw light shield.

Example1. Our half elf wields a doublesword to TWF when he full attacks, and Two Hand Power attacks with it if he has to move. This costs EWP feat but has the advantage of never falling behind the Greatsword guy and all my wpn fcs/spl apply to both ends of my double weapon.

Example2. My human TWF can either TWF with a Scimitar/Cestus or if he needs to move he can 2 hand power attack.with the Scimitar. The TWW gets his wpn training equally to any weapon so long as he twf's so the cestus only misses out on Wpn fcs/spl till level 9, when you switch to Scimitar/Kukri and can TWF as a standard action. At 11 when improved balance comes in go with 2 scimitars.and make Gtr wpn fcs/spec finally apply to both hands.
Th advantge here is you didn't waste a
[/b]...

Wow! Nice.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

The Rondolero Fighter has a big advantage in that his primary weapon training bonus applies to BOTH the falcata AND the buckler in tandem.

That is AWESOME.

ON top of that, his buckler = a light shield. Bucklers can be used while two handing the falcata, without unequipping it! Best of both worlds!

And the falcata is a great weapon in and of itself. 19-20 x3 crit for an EWP makes it the best one-hander in the game...and you can always two hand it for real damage as long as your buckler is mithral. If you're going to use a one-hander, it's definitely better then a bastard sword.

Shield Master makes a shields AC = its bonus. so a shield +5 is a +6 weapon, not a +5. This further buys off the need to spec/focus with it.

===
You can certainly two hand a shield and get its bonus with Improved Bash, and get the extra damage.

The suggestion to specialize in close weapons and pick up Improved Unarmed Strike, or just use a spiked gauntlet, is solid advice...Just use the shield as your primary attack once you've got Imp Shield bash.

The one bad thing about shield as a weapon is the lousy crit. 20/x2 still sucks, and doesn't change even if you spike it and put Bashing on it.

You're basically going to have to make a decision on whether or not to primary your shield as a weapon, or go TWF. If you go TWF, the Rondolero fighter will make your shield as effective as his sword without much penalty, and allow you to Two hand at will.

At higher levels, this will make you a cusinart.

==
Also note that as soon as you get Shield Master, you can truly have an Uber Shield.

Shield Mastery turns your Shield Bonus into TH/DMG. that means that if you already HAVE th/dmg bonuses on the shield, you don't need them anymore.

And can turn them into Defender Bonuses.

Thusly, with a Spiked Buckler of Bashing +5, Defending +5, you would have a 1-8 20/x2 weapon, +6 th/dmg, and you could devote all the enhancement bonuses as a weapon to Defending, to further up your Touch and normal AC's.

When you finally top out this 100k Shield, it'll be giving you +11 to AC, +5 to Touch AC.

Uber shields as +6 (or +7 if heavy) weapons are awesome.

=============
If you are truly thinking long term, bastard sword and heavy shield at high levels turns into Sun Sword and Heavy Shield. Make the Sun sword secondary, it counts as a short sword, a light weapon, and reduces penalties to a mere -2.

==Aelryinth


Aelryinth wrote:

The Rondolero Fighter has a big advantage in that his primary weapon training bonus applies to BOTH the falcata AND the buckler in tandem.

That is AWESOME.

ON top of that, his buckler = a light shield. Bucklers can be used while two handing the falcata, without unequipping it! Best of both worlds!

And the falcata is a great weapon in and of itself. 19-20 x3 crit for an EWP makes it the best one-hander in the game...and you can always two hand it for real damage as long as your buckler is mithral. If you're going to use a one-hander, it's definitely better then a bastard sword.

Shield Master makes a shields AC = its bonus. so a shield +5 is a +6 weapon, not a +5. This further buys off the need to spec/focus with it.

===
You can certainly two hand a shield and get its bonus with Improved Bash, and get the extra damage.

The suggestion to specialize in close weapons and pick up Improved Unarmed Strike, or just use a spiked gauntlet, is solid advice...Just use the shield as your primary attack once you've got Imp Shield bash.

The one bad thing about shield as a weapon is the lousy crit. 20/x2 still sucks, and doesn't change even if you spike it and put Bashing on it.

You're basically going to have to make a decision on whether or not to primary your shield as a weapon, or go TWF. If you go TWF, the Rondolero fighter will make your shield as effective as his sword without much penalty, and allow you to Two hand at will.

At higher levels, this will make you a cusinart.

==
Also note that as soon as you get Shield Master, you can truly have an Uber Shield.

Shield Mastery turns your Shield Bonus into TH/DMG. that means that if you already HAVE th/dmg bonuses on the shield, you don't need them anymore.

And can turn them into Defender Bonuses.

Thusly, with a Spiked Buckler of Bashing +5, Defending +5, you would have a 1-8 20/x2 weapon, +6 th/dmg, and you could devote all the enhancement bonuses as a weapon to Defending, to further up your Touch and normal AC's.

When you finally top...

1. What does having a Mithral Buckler have to do with 2Hing a Falcata?

2. Quoting the feat, Shield Master; "Add your shield's enhancement bonus to attacks and damage rolls made with the shield as if it was a weapon enhancement bonus." Your normal Shield AC doesn't add to th/dmg, only the enhancement bonus, so +5 max.
3. Not of it's a light shield/buckler
4. A buckler made into a +6 Weapon and a +6 Shield is incredibly expensive(even if your GM lets you treat the bashing property as counting for having it enchanted as a +1 weapon), and all for the purpose of adding 5 more AC? maybe if you have all of your bases covered already, but it's never something I'd shoot for.


Blah, this thread made me realize something about my build. I had thought that Shield Master nullified all two-weapon penalties while using a shield, but it only applies to the shield. I was going to go back to a heavy shield once I picked it up, but I guess I'll have to stay light. Having a d8 in each hand will still be cool, though (light spiked bashing shield and longsword).


Actually a Scimitar and light shield would be better.

See GTWF is a fairly low percentage feat. Another option is to take bashing finish instead.
any time you crit with your keen.scimitar, you get a free bash with tje shield

GTWF only applies on a full attack. And it's at BAB -10

Bashing finish applies on:
Crit full attacks
Crit AOO's
Crit standard+ move


STR Ranger wrote:

Actually a Scimitar and light shield would be better.

See GTWF is a fairly low percentage feat. Another option is to take bashing finish instead.
any time you crit with your keen.scimitar, you get a free bash with tje shield

GTWF only applies on a full attack. And it's at BAB -10

Bashing finish applies on:
Crit full attacks
Crit AOO's
Crit standard+ move

bashing finish also works on criticals with your shield so if you're a two weapon warrior you can move and double attack with a weapon/shield, get an aoo with a weapon/shield, if you hit with your shield and you have shield master (a prereq) and greater bullrush you make a mess of follow on double aoo attacks and another chance of getting crits.

I honestly love the idea of the build but as you get to higher levels bullrush starts to drop off as your fighting bigger creatures with higher CMD's so unless you really beef your CMB your going to be failing more than suceeding.

The OP's build looks fine for a table thats not heavily optimised, there are a few tweeks that could be made to squeeze some slight power advantages out of it but i think it will work well enough for kingmaker which isn't a hugely challenging AP until later books, the armour from the shield will help in some fights though.

Lantern Lodge

Thalin wrote:
You can't two-hand a shield; or at least, not and get the shield bonus. Old thread.

Hrmm I admit I never thought two-handing not legal. Looking at the PFSRD it seems to state you can make a bash attack only by using your off-hand? So does that mean you can never use a medium shield simply as a one-handed main weapon?

Also, some people are talking about dual-wielding shields. As per RAW, shield bonuses stack with all other bonuses EXCEPT other shield bonuses. So the idea of stacking your shield bonuses isn't going to work.

Vuvu wrote:

At some point I am going to make a single shield wielder! No idea how to best make that work, but it is happening. And I don't mean Cpt America style, throwing it and all that. Just a slightly frightened warrior.

He really doesn't like pain, especially getting his knuckles wrapped, so he hold onto his shield for dear life and bashes away with it.

I know it is a little thread hijackery but any suggestions for it? Might be a fun PFSer

I had a PFS character named Captain Andoran who wheres blue full plate armor, wields a bullseye shield, has a big A for Andoran on his helm, and uses a Heroclix mini :)

He was a Paladin(Divine Defender) and fun for laughs with super AC and saving throws. But GMs started avoiding him and since I favor more heavy DPR heavy characters I stopped playing him.

Dark Archive

Well, no stacking shield bonuses. But if you dual-wield shields, you can get the AC from the better shield, and only need one weapon focus-specialization.

Rangers do it better though; the new sword and board style gives them access to shield master at 6th level, which makes for an easy build-up and high + weapons, along with solid AC. After 6th you can switch to fighter if you want for maximum AC and weapon specialization, or wait it out to keep your animal companion / get instant enemy.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

A Rondolero Fighter treats a buckler as a light shield for damage when bashing.

They must have adjusted Shield Master to just be enhancement bonus. It used to be Shield Bonus. Thank you for the correction, I will remember it in the future.

A Mithral Buckler is important because it lowers the ACP to 0, otherwise the Buckler would give you penalty on your attack rolls when attacking two handed and still being worn.

A Buckler made into a +6 Weapon and +6 Shield is (wait for it), 98k, which is 2k less then a +10 armor bonus shield. YES, you could potentially drop 300k into it...but the Uber Shield maxes out at the same point as any other shield, and the rest is just gravy. So it's not 'hideously expensive'.

While Bashing Finish is nice, it has the same problem of not conjoining weapon training between your two weapons. Rondolero is effectively adding +1/+1 to all your shield attacks by using the style and getting weapon training sooner.

==Aelryinth


Obviously, there are different ways to do this, but I will offer you a concept build I came up with. Basically, use the shielded fighter archetype to get to level five and take ranger with the shield style up to level 6 so you can get shield master earlier without the prerequisites. Note: you can also archetype the ranger, I suggest wild stalker so this character can get rage and rage powers (you want those rage powers that help with the critical hits).

This way, at level 11 you can already have shield fighter, you get shield master from your sixth level ranger, and you qualify for either greater two-weapon fighting or bashing finish (you can get the other feat at 12th level at fighter level six if you want). Anyways, it's at 11th that you combine the traits you want.

You want to take two weapon fighting all the way to greater, you don't want shield slam since you won't care about bull rushing. You won't take two weapon rend (I'll explain why), but you will take double slice (to get full strength damage for your shield). Here is the why - Your main hand weapon will just be a place holder (probably with the defender enchantment to boost AC) because the shield fighter ability lets you take all your attacks (both primary and offhand) with your shield, and your shield attacks suffer no penalties from two weapon fighting. In other words, six attacks with your spiked heavy shield of bashing (2d6 base damage) with no -2 (or -4) penalty from two weapon fighting. You use power attack to up that damage, and you get extra attacks on a critical hit when you take bashing finish.

If you take wild stalker you could also use rage feats such as raging brutality to up your damage. Also, you would have uncanny dodge and three more levels of ranger would get you evasion.

I could never decide after 11th level if it would be better to level fighter to get additional +1 to shield attack and damage from shield master + weapon specialization feats or to level the ranger for a few spells and more rage powers...

Oh, forgot to mention your six levels of ranger also gives you access to the lead blades spell so your shield is doing 3d6 base damage not 2d6.


pobbes wrote:

Obviously, there are different ways to do this, but I will offer you a concept build I came up with. Basically, use the shielded fighter archetype to get to level five and take ranger with the shield style up to level 6 so you can get shield master earlier without the prerequisites. Note: you can also archetype the ranger, I suggest wild stalker so this character can get rage and rage powers (you want those rage powers that help with the critical hits).

This way, at level 11 you can already have shield fighter, you get shield master from your sixth level ranger, and you qualify for either greater two-weapon fighting or bashing finish (you can get the other feat at 12th level at fighter level six if you want). Anyways, it's at 11th that you combine the traits you want.

You want to take two weapon fighting all the way to greater, you don't want shield slam since you won't care about bull rushing. You won't take two weapon rend (I'll explain why), but you will take double slice (to get full strength damage for your shield). Here is the why - Your main hand weapon will just be a place holder (probably with the defender enchantment to boost AC) because the shield fighter ability lets you take all your attacks (both primary and offhand) with your shield, and your shield attacks suffer no penalties from two weapon fighting. In other words, six attacks with your spiked heavy shield of bashing (2d6 base damage) with no -2 (or -4) penalty from two weapon fighting. You use power attack to up that damage, and you get extra attacks on a critical hit when you take bashing finish.

If you take wild stalker you could also use rage feats such as raging brutality to up your damage. Also, you would have uncanny dodge and three more levels of ranger would get you evasion.

I could never decide after 11th level if it would be better to level fighter to get additional +1 to shield attack and damage from shield master + weapon specialization feats or to level the ranger for a few spells and more rage powers...

Oh,...

This is not a very good build, for starters it does not have any way of taking advantage of its number of attacks with standard attack actions or charge actions or AoO's. The wild stalker archtype replaces the rangers feats so you cannot take wild stalker and be a weapon and shield ranger.

The shield fighter level 5 ability does not actually work like that, you can INTERSPACE shield attacks with main hand attacks when using a full attack action, that doesn't mean you can take all your twf attacks with your shield, it means if you don't have 2wf you can make attacks with your shield then your weapon then your shield etc. Two weapon rend is ok, but not great, its much better if you have a high static damage bonus to take advantage of like favoured enemy/smite/challenge, i would probably take it in a shield fighter build but not until very late on.

I would re; read STRrangers post a little further up the thread about the strengths and weaknesses of twf as he wrote a very good guide on the matter. I would also urge people to read the rules before posting advice for someone who might think that they actually know what they are talking about.


Egoish wrote:
pobbes wrote:
What I wrote
stuff you wrote which I will parse below.
Egoish wrote:
This is not a very good build, for starters it does not have any way of taking advantage of its number of attacks with standard attack actions or charge actions or AoO's.

Very valid point, the best standard action option is to cast lead blades or some other ranger spell. Charges are not favored with this build at all.

Egoish wrote:
The wild stalker archetype replaces the rangers feats so you cannot take wild stalker and be a weapon and shield ranger.

This is incorrect. The wild stalker archetype only replaces the 2nd level combat style feat. You would still get your sixth level combat style feat for weapon and shield which in this case would be shield master.

Egoish wrote:
The shield fighter level 5 ability does not actually work like that, you can INTERSPACE shield attacks with main hand attacks when using a full attack action, that doesn't mean you can take all your twf attacks with your shield, it means if you don't have 2wf you can make attacks with your shield then your weapon then your shield etc.

This is not my interpretation of the text, but you may be correct. If so, that has a strong negative impact on this build.

Egoish wrote:
Two weapon rend is ok, but not great, its much better if you have a high static damage bonus to take advantage of like favoured enemy/smite/challenge, i would probably take it in a shield fighter build but not until very late on.

I never recommended two-weapon rend because I intended to only use the shield and stack weapon properties on a top of a +1 enhancement while charging the shield enhancement bonus for both AC and Attack through shield master. Again, if your interpretation of the shield fighter ability is correct it gimps this build.

Egoish wrote:
I would re; read STRrangers post a little further up the thread about the strengths and weaknesses of twf as he wrote a very good guide on the matter. I would also urge people to read the rules before posting advice for someone who might think that they actually know what they are talking about.

I understand the difficulty of stacking bonuses on TWF, which is why I mentioned taking the fighter feats to boosting shield damage or raging brutality to stack con to damage and rage as a straight stat booster. I admit that the number crunching is not my strong point, but strong static bonuses such as raging brutality can still be fairly effective in damage boosting even if it is not topping the dps charts.


pobbes, i'm sorry but only the first and last sentences of that post are actually anything close to correct.

casting lead blades is not a total waste of a standard action, however there are several ways to get either pounce or a pounce like ability for two weapon fighters which are simply better. lead blades is a decent spell but if you can attack insted of not attacking with an archtype like two weapon warrior or mobile fighter then it is worth while, beast totem rage powers are also quite accessable if you wish to build for it or multiclassing beast morph alcemist is a bigger investment which you may actually get more from.

the wild stalker archtype has a horrible typo in which it gives up its favoured enemy bonuses twice, the only other thing on the table for the rage powers to replace is the feats as rage powers are actually better than feats anyway. now i will admit that if you play strictly by RAW and your GM lacks any common sense that your interpretation would be correct however i cannot think of a compelling reason for a GM to allow such a character at their table.

your interpretation of the text is incorrect, i am sorry but if you take a look through the forums regarding monks flurry of blows not being allowed to use one weapon for attacks which "act" like two weapon fighting then the shielded fighter archtype getting an ability that works in such a way would be preposterous. this is not an arguement based on if x can't do it then y can't do it, i just don't want to get drawn into an english debate in which i may say something i would regret.

your stance on two weapon rend is actually quite servicable, it is an ok feat but thats all it is, hardly neccessary but a nice to have if you have the spare feats (which a fighter could have) but the feat does become good if you have a high static damage bonus as i mentioned because it becomes another free delivery system for your static damage.

raging brutality can be fairly effective but as str ranger has said further up the thread, its all about full attacks or pounce like abilities. even if your build was legal and all the rules meshed in the way you have posted your build would still be a sub optimal build due to not doing anything when it has to move.


Egoish wrote:
pobbes, i'm sorry but only the first and last sentences of that post are actually anything close to correct.

Wild Stalker has a typo?!! On second examination, you are correct, and I am foiled. I will leave the optimization to my more learned colleagues in this forum.


Aelryinth wrote:

A Rondolero Fighter treats a buckler as a light shield for damage when bashing.

They must have adjusted Shield Master to just be enhancement bonus. It used to be Shield Bonus. Thank you for the correction, I will remember it in the future.

A Mithral Buckler is important because it lowers the ACP to 0, otherwise the Buckler would give you penalty on your attack rolls when attacking two handed and still being worn.

A Buckler made into a +6 Weapon and +6 Shield is (wait for it), 98k, which is 2k less then a +10 armor bonus shield. YES, you could potentially drop 300k into it...but the Uber Shield maxes out at the same point as any other shield, and the rest is just gravy. So it's not 'hideously expensive'.

While Bashing Finish is nice, it has the same problem of not conjoining weapon training between your two weapons. Rondolero is effectively adding +1/+1 to all your shield attacks by using the style and getting weapon training sooner.

==Aelryinth

Buckler: You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so.

It says nothing about ACP, it's just a flat -1 penalty, the ACP you're thinking of is probably from the Weapon Finesse clause, also a Masterwork Buckler would eliminate the ACP just as well as mithral, but would be cheaper.

36,000(+6 shield)+72,000(+6 weapon)=108,000, I'd personally make my Main hand weapon +6 before enchanting the shield as a +6 weapon just for the AC bonus, after all, a dead enemy deals no damage.

And Bashing finish is amazing if you have a 15-20 main hand weapon, since it's a free shield bash against that person everytime you crit, essentially tripling your damage potential for that attack(X2 from the crit+the extra hit from your shield bash)

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