Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
|
It is interesting to me, as a point of friendly discussion, that the "red states" (particularly those in the American South) who are often the most virulently anti-tax and social welfare programs are actually the largest beneficiaries of said programs.
So it's in large part the "blue states" that are funding the social welfare of the "red states," but the "blue states" don't seem to mind so much, whereas the "red states" hate socialism.
Anyone have any thoughts as to why this might be so?
PS: I think the whole concept of "blue states" and "red states" is absurd, but for the sake of voting trends and demographics related to tax spending, I find these numbers fascinating.
|
It is interesting to me, as a point of friendly discussion, that the "red states" (particularly those in the American South) who are often the most virulently anti-tax and social welfare programs are actually the largest beneficiaries of said programs.
So it's in large part the "blue states" that are funding the social welfare of the "red states," but the "blue states" don't seem to mind so much, whereas the "red states" hate socialism.
Anyone have any thoughts as to why this might be so?
PS: I think the whole concept of "blue states" and "red states" is absurd, but for the sake of voting trends and demographics related to tax spending, I find these numbers fascinating.
They figure in all Federal expenditures. Look at a map of military bases and Federal prisons (both of which are expensive), and you'll see a regional discrepancy...
Not to mention DHS. When I ran the production office for UNICOR in Bastrop (we up-fitted Federal Law Enforcement vehicles), billions of dollars more of equipment were going to Gulf states and the Southwest. For every Border Patrol vehicle we sent to Spokane or Billingham, we sent 100 to Alabama, and 200 to Laredo, for instance.
Those types of expenditures are more region sensitive than welfare and medicare. There are poor people everywhere, but more drugs and illegal immigrants come through the Gulf and Mexico (thus more need for Fed prisons in the South and Texas, to keep the BOP "within 500 miles from home"* rule in effect for inmates, and the southern borders and the Gulf aren't friendly borders like Canada) and a greater need for Federal Law Enforcement. Military bases are the same kind of deal. More people from the South and Texas enlist than any other region of the country, so when they were closing bases and forts, The South and Texas were hit with less closings than the rest of the country.
*Edited for clarity
Oh man, NorCal is its own little ivory tower and is second only to NYC in its belief that it is the center of the universe.
I believe there was a South Park episode that addressed this...I mean, not that a distinguished academic like myself would have seen it...some of my students must have been talking about it...
As much as HD likes to smack talk the Metroplex, he speaks sooth here, oh thou north of the promised land.
Just google it, that's all I did. It's out there easy to find. Jersey on whole feels it should pay it's own way, so they do. They also want to do things their own way.Anyone can. Texas pays about what it gets back, 0.94 dollars on the dollar it pays comes back. NJ gets 0.61 dollars. It aint close. NJ since 1981 has ranked 48-50th on the scale of dollars recieve from the Fed vs dollars paid in. And has been ranked 50th since 2001.Still, if we're getting back $0.06 on the dollar less, we aren't taking anything from Jerseyites. And part of the reason Jersey gets less back is they TAX THE HELL out of everyone on the state level. I guess the pols in Trenton figure they don't need the Fed tax money back ;)
Just out of curiosity, can you link that for me? I'm curious what the other insane tax state, Massachusetts, gets back in Fed dollars.
Link here.
Yeah, looks like New England in general pays more than they take in. The Mid-Atlantic and the Great Lakes States as well. Florida and Texas are the only Southern states in the red.
Texas likes to do things their own way also, but we also get a lot of Fed money for our border and we have quite a few military bases, so that may skew the results for us a bit, and the ICE/CBP stuff for the other border states.
For the record, California apparently only took in $0.80 to the dollar, so that was inaccurate.
Yeah that was for 2005 only though. The chart I found was for more then one year, I think 25 or 35... Still even in yours who paid the most and got the least....you betcha, NJ. Even then getting back 15 cents on the dollar less then CA. And 32 cents on the dollar less then Texas.
It is interesting to me, as a point of friendly discussion, that the "red states" (particularly those in the American South) who are often the most virulently anti-tax and social welfare programs are actually the largest beneficiaries of said programs.
So it's in large part the "blue states" that are funding the social welfare of the "red states," but the "blue states" don't seem to mind so much, whereas the "red states" hate socialism.
Anyone have any thoughts as to why this might be so?
PS: I think the whole concept of "blue states" and "red states" is absurd, but for the sake of voting trends and demographics related to tax spending, I find these numbers fascinating.
They figure in all Federal expenditures. Look at a map of military bases and Federal prisons (both of which are expensive), and you'll see a regional discrepancy...
Not to mention DHS. When I ran the production office for UNICOR in Bastrop (we up-fitted Federal Law Enforcement vehicles), billions of dollars more of equipment were going to Gulf states and the Southwest. For every Border Patrol vehicle we sent to Spokane or Billingham, we sent 100 to Alabama, and 200 to Laredo, for instance.
Those types of expenditures are more region sensitive than welfare and medicare. There are poor people everywhere, but more drugs and illegal immigrants come through the Gulf and Mexico (thus more need for Fed prisons in the South and Texas, to keep the BOP "within 500 miles from home"* rule in effect for inmates, and the southern borders and the Gulf aren't friendly borders like Canada) and a greater need for Federal Law Enforcement. Military bases are the same kind of deal. More people from the South and Texas enlist than any other region of the country, so when they were closing bases and forts, The South and Texas were hit with less closings than the rest of the country.
*Edited for clarity
One point though is that there are military bases in greater number in the south because of the civil war. Or rather because after it they built them to keep them in line.
|
|
...says the envious Okie.Of what pray tell, Oh Leafyone? ;-)An economy and 24 hour everything?
;)
Oklahoma = recession-proof. Diversified economy + oil = lots of capital growth. Low unemployment. Never bought into the housing bubble. Home values continued to grow throughout 2008.
We stay home and sleep at night instead of stealing cars and vandalizing outhouses.
;-)
I don't figure you ever met my Basic Training Battle Buddy/Barracks Thief From Hell from Oklahoma then.
|
|
I don't figure you ever met my Basic Training Battle Buddy/Barracks Thief From Hell from Oklahoma then....says the envious Okie.Of what pray tell, Oh Leafyone? ;-)An economy and 24 hour everything?
;)
Oklahoma = recession-proof. Diversified economy + oil = lots of capital growth. Low unemployment. Never bought into the housing bubble. Home values continued to grow throughout 2008.
We stay home and sleep at night instead of stealing cars and vandalizing outhouses.
;-)
Heathy, dude from Enid stole my two mile run PT score. After I handicapped it by running with him for a mile and a half to keep him on pace to pass. Ingrate ;) (I used to run mid-tens in the two mile, cross country in HS, don't you know. Lost a few seconds off my track time, though, running after push ups and sit ups will do that...)
All of my drill sergeants in basic were from Oklahoma. 95th MATC (reservists on their ATX). Other than Sgt. Sass and Sgt. Love (Two senior drills), we are talking about a very shallow end of the gene pool. "You from Texas, boy? Only steers and queers come from Texas!" NEVER gets old...
*eyeroll*
|
|
By far, the worst americans I have dealt with have been out of the New York/New Jersey area.I'm from upstate New York, practically a different planet from NJ (and we consider NYC both physically and culturally a part of New Jersey, not a part of New York).
Whoa.... them be fighting words!!
Wait...there is more of NY beyond NYC?... there is Longisland... NYC... ummmmmm then Canada... nop... nothing beyond NYC..;-)
Never ever compare NYC the NJ.... never ever... ;-)
By the way... I am from Longisland
|
|
I don't figure you ever met my Basic Training Battle Buddy/Barracks Thief From Hell from Oklahoma then....says the envious Okie.Of what pray tell, Oh Leafyone? ;-)An economy and 24 hour everything?
;)
Oklahoma = recession-proof. Diversified economy + oil = lots of capital growth. Low unemployment. Never bought into the housing bubble. Home values continued to grow throughout 2008.
We stay home and sleep at night instead of stealing cars and vandalizing outhouses.
;-)
Heathy, dude from Enid stole my two mile run PT score. After I handicapped it by running with him for a mile and a half to keep him on pace to pass. Ingrate ;) (I used to run mid-tens in the two mile, cross country in HS, don't you know. Lost a few seconds off my track time, though, running after push ups and sit ups will do that...)
All of my drill sergeants in basic were from Oklahoma. 95th MATC (reservists on their ATX). Other than Sgt. Sass and Sgt. Love (Two senior drills), we are talking about a very shallow end of the gene pool. "You from Texas, boy? Only steers and queers come from Texas!" NEVER gets old...
*eyeroll*
THIS guy stole my roommate's call code looking over his shoulder, then sold the code to people for cheap long distance calling.
His wife calls in tears, "why do we have a $900 phone bill? Who have you been calling?!?"So the d.s's lined everybody up in a room with their phone bill.... "who called Susy Q in Bumf@%!, Ind?" Dude raises his hand..."who called Velma McC in Oggleholler, Tn?" another dude raises his hand.....sheeesh!
|
|
Whoa.... them be fighting words!!
Wait...there is more of NY beyond NYC?... there is Longisland... NYC... ummmmmm then Canada... nop... nothing beyond NYC..;-)
Never ever compare NYC the NJ.... never ever... ;-)
By the way... I am from Longisland
Upstate is howling wildnerness.
It obviously causes warped perceptions to confuse NYC with the toxic wastes of Jersey.
One point though is that there are military bases in greater number in the south...The "whys" don't really change the point, though. Those states get more money for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with being "greedy" for tax dollars. West Virginia wins those honors, hands down...
They do fight hard not to loose those bases everytime base closes are annouced. You can claim it has nothing to do with being greedy, but it doesn't change were the money goes either.
|
|
They do fight hard not to loose those bases everytime base closes are annouced. You can claim it has nothing to do with being greedy, but it doesn't change were the money goes either.One point though is that there are military bases in greater number in the south...The "whys" don't really change the point, though. Those states get more money for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with being "greedy" for tax dollars. West Virginia wins those honors, hands down...
Gee, sorry they turned Ft. Disneyland into a Federal prison ;)
Considering that the product of those bases are our military, and our military protects all 50 states, I think it's disingenuous to harp on the Federal dollars going there. And when New Jersey is on a hostile border (and, no, the Hudson river doesn't count), I'm sure the government will be sure to send more than eight new CBP and 20 new ICE vehicles there a year.
And...
Of course they fought hard for those bases. The communities around them would die if they closed. Look at what happened in western Louisiana when Polk more or less closed. Leesville is even less inhabitable than it was when the fort was active.
Again, the point was that those figures include ALL Federal monies going to the states, not just welfare, medicaid, highway funds and education dollars, which all states get proportionally based on population and demographics. So, it isn't some Mississippi Welfare Queen "stealing" all of Jersey's money, it's a soldier, DHS agent, Coast Guard dude or Federal prisoner getting it.
I'd be glad to close the eleven Federal prisons in Texas and send them to Jersey to even things out, if you like ;)
|
It is interesting to me, as a point of friendly discussion, that the "red states" (particularly those in the American South) who are often the most virulently anti-tax and social welfare programs are actually the largest beneficiaries of said programs.
According to my economics teacher, Utah is the most socialist state in the country. We are also the reddest state in the country.
I'd have to agree as far as military base closures are concerned. When the DOD BRAC board made their determination at which bases were recommended for closure, a lot of the representatives of those respective districts were in uproar. Cannon AFB, Holloman AFB, Dyess AFB, and a few others were slated, and each congressman made the same case: "But the closure will destroy the economy of my district!" Each argument succeeded, and three of the most isolated bases in the Air Force remained intact.
Special interests groups and lobbyists seem to invade any Federal program they receive funding from, civilian and uniformed service alike.
|
Okay, I hadn't meant this to be a serious thread, but since it went that way I'll ask the question. Is President Obama any smarter than President Bush, or is he just portrayed that way? Political scientists have known since the Kennedy-Nixon debate that perception is often much mopre powerful than reality. In fact the debate proved this, as people who watched the debate on television regarded Kennedy as the winner while those who listened on the radio believed Nixon had won. There are plenty of examples of "Bushism" uttered by Obama during the campaign that just got written off because of who said them. Since Obama hasn't even been president for 100 days yet, how can you be certain that he is a better president then Bush was? Or is it just the effects of a slick and admittedly brilliant campaign of marketing Barack Obama?
"Hugs all around QB!" Probably better than feelings of Barak the Butcher! or Barak the Bear! Or what was the one I heard over on 4CHAN? The Black Nixon!"
I only condone one one point of view regarding President Obama: "He will be the equal of those who came before him, any thing better is Gravy."
How many New England states are fighting to have the prisoners of Gitmo sent to them? If you want more federal dollars this seems like a good way to get them.
Ya know, if I hadn't lived three years in Okieland, and have friends who still live there, I just might be bamboozled by Mr. Vaughan. Just might...
|
|
Whoa.... them be fighting words!!
Wait...there is more of NY beyond NYC?... there is Longisland... NYC... ummmmmm then Canada... nop... nothing beyond NYC..;-)
Never ever compare NYC the NJ.... never ever... ;-)
By the way... I am from Longisland
Upstate is howling wildnerness.
It obviously causes warped perceptions to confuse NYC with the toxic wastes of Jersey.
Damn New Jersey and it toxic waste!!!!!
See Sam knows all about it... Blame NJ!!!
|
It is interesting to me, as a point of friendly discussion, that the "red states" (particularly those in the American South) who are often the most virulently anti-tax and social welfare programs are actually the largest beneficiaries of said programs.
That sounds alot like Louisiana. The politicians have been screwing that state up since the late 1800s. That's why I left.
Can somebody sum up the current status of what is being discussed?
Well, the only thing I've gleaned from this morass is this:
Q - Why doesn't Texas slide into the Gulf of Mexico?
Because Oklahoma sucks!!!
The United Nations
Office of Useless Organizations
3rd Floor
5th Restroom along
New York, NY 06660
How many New England states are fighting to have the prisoners of Gitmo sent to them? If you want more federal dollars this seems like a good way to get them.
Personally I don't want more federal dollars, I just want to give out less...
And as an aside, I will personally benefit hugely from all these proposed stimulus items, and most of these massive welfare programs. I reside firmly in the lower class, which is partly why I have the perspective I have, having seen the results of these programs with people I interact with on a daily basis.
Just because I will benefit from a program doesn't mean that I should endorse it, or I should feel it's the best thing for the country in the long run. Just as it would be criminal to borrow $100,000 in my daughter's name to make my own life easier now.
|
|
Say what you want about the French, and I enjoy poking fun at them as much as the next American, but most of them are very nice. I went to France on leave when I was stationed in England and what I found was that in Paris, the only big city i visited, the people live up to every stereotype imaginable. They even charged for tours of the sewers when I was there. However, when you got out into the countryside and visited the smaller villages the people were much friendlier, nicer, and just like people back home. I speak no French, but I was surprised at the number of people out in the countryside that speak English. I was also almost embarressed by the number of older people who came up to thank me for the liberation when they learned that I was American and a serviceman.
They do fight hard not to loose those bases everytime base closes are annouced. You can claim it has nothing to do with being greedy, but it doesn't change were the money goes either.One point though is that there are military bases in greater number in the south...The "whys" don't really change the point, though. Those states get more money for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with being "greedy" for tax dollars. West Virginia wins those honors, hands down...Gee, sorry they turned Ft. Disneyland into a Federal prison ;)
Considering that the product of those bases are our military, and our military protects all 50 states, I think it's disingenuous to harp on the Federal dollars going there. And when New Jersey is on a hostile border (and, no, the Hudson river doesn't count), I'm sure the government will be sure to send more than eight new CBP and 20 new ICE vehicles there a year.
And...
Of course they fought hard for those bases. The communities around them would die if they closed. Look at what happened in western Louisiana when Polk more or less closed. Leesville is even less inhabitable than it was when the fort was active.
Again, the point was that those figures include ALL Federal monies going to the states, not just welfare, medicaid, highway funds and education dollars, which all states get proportionally based on population and demographics. So, it isn't some Mississippi Welfare Queen "stealing" all of Jersey's money, it's a soldier, DHS agent, Coast Guard dude or Federal prisoner getting it.
I'd be glad to close the eleven Federal prisons in Texas and send them to Jersey to even things out, if you like ;)
Well so your arguement is that even though the money is from the fed, and even though it is keeping those areas economically viable, it's ok because its for XYZ?
When Fort Monoth in NJ closed, mostly anyway, the locals were ok with it. They bought the land built some homes, all was well. Sure my pal that worked there had to move, but his specialty was military work. He got a job in DC and is fine as well.
In the end the money goes for prisons, bases, and what have you but the jobs that are created, the place the money is spent is in those states. It's fair to concider it all when I say NJ is paying for Mississippi (or any state getting more from the fed then they are paying in).
That sounds alot like Louisiana. The politicians have been screwing that state up since the late 1800s. That's why I left.And Philly politics are better because why...?
;-)
Well you PA folk did elect a governor who when he was mayor of Philly blow up a few blocks of it.....
Can't say too many mayors have done that and then been promoted.
And a free cheese steak with every vote. Vote early, vote often ;pThe two drink minimum.That sounds alot like Louisiana. The politicians have been screwing that state up since the late 1800s. That's why I left.And Philly politics are better because why...?
;-)
I thought that was a Chicago phrase, or maybe a West Virigian one. They are the only state ever I believe to have 108% turn out for a state wide election (think it was in the early 1950s but I clearly recall it being them).
|
|
I thought that was a Chicago phrase, or maybe a West Virigian one. They are the only state ever I believe to have 108% turn out for a state wide election (think it was in the early 1950s but I clearly recall it being them).And a free cheese steak with every vote. Vote early, vote often ;pThe two drink minimum.That sounds alot like Louisiana. The politicians have been screwing that state up since the late 1800s. That's why I left.And Philly politics are better because why...?
;-)
108%? That's funny. Even Saddam wasn't stupid enough to get a voter turnout over 100%. Seriously incompetent vote riggers there. They need to hire some professionals.
|
|
I thought that was a Chicago phrase, or maybe a West Virigian one. They are the only state ever I believe to have 108% turn out for a state wide election (think it was in the early 1950s but I clearly recall it being them).And a free cheese steak with every vote. Vote early, vote often ;pThe two drink minimum.That sounds alot like Louisiana. The politicians have been screwing that state up since the late 1800s. That's why I left.And Philly politics are better because why...?
;-)
I saw a news report the other day that said Kim Jung Il's approval rating in North Korea has plummeted to 120%. I'll see if I can find it.
Edit: Found it.
Rendell was probably one of the best things to happen to Philly as he turned the city around much like Guiliani did for NYC.Well you PA folk did elect a governor who when he was mayor of Philly blow up a few blocks of it.....
Can't say too many mayors have done that and then been promoted.
Prehaps, I lived about an hour from Philly at the time and I recall the uproar over it all.
Over all though the situation with the Move folk and what happened when he bombed them isn't funny.
However the fact that he blew up a couple city blocks and it was a good thing sort of is, and better him getting premoted for it really seems to be. At least from the outside looking in.
|
Prehaps, I lived about an hour from Philly at the time and I recall the uproar over it all.
Over all though the situation with the Move folk and what happened when he bombed them isn't funny.
However the fact that he blew up a couple city blocks and it was a good thing sort of is, and better him getting premoted for it really seems to be. At least from the outside looking in.
You do realize the MOVE stuff was under Wilson Goode's tenure as mayor, not Rendell?
You do realize the MOVE stuff was under Wilson Goode's tenure as mayor, not Rendell?Prehaps, I lived about an hour from Philly at the time and I recall the uproar over it all.
Over all though the situation with the Move folk and what happened when he bombed them isn't funny.
However the fact that he blew up a couple city blocks and it was a good thing sort of is, and better him getting premoted for it really seems to be. At least from the outside looking in.
I thought Rendell was Mayor when the call to bomb them was made....it was a while ago so memory can betray one over time.
|
|
Say what you want about the French, and I enjoy poking fun at them as much as the next American, but most of them are very nice. I went to France on leave when I was stationed in England and what I found was that in Paris, the only big city i visited, the people live up to every stereotype imaginable. They even charged for tours of the sewers when I was there. However, when you got out into the countryside and visited the smaller villages the people were much friendlier, nicer, and just like people back home. I speak no French, but I was surprised at the number of people out in the countryside that speak English. I was also almost embarressed by the number of older people who came up to thank me for the liberation when they learned that I was American and a serviceman.
I have Experienced France Twice... once in 2000 and I found People in Paris Very nice... and people in the Country Side very rude..
The second time in 2008 and everyone was just rude no matter where I was, especially to my Wife who is Turkish. We once went into a restaurant to get some food, my wife went in the restaurant first to get a table, and the waiter told her that there where no tables for her *though there were plenty*, as soon as the waiter saw that she was with an American family they suddenly noticed all the empty ones....
other times people made some nasty comments to her because she was Turkish...
I did not like France the Second time I went.
the People's Government of Galt has issued a warrant for your arrest and subsequent execution for your clear lack of sensitivity and political acuity. They suspect you are in fact an Andoran sympathizer.
Viva la revolucion! (Wait, is that French or Spanish?)
Aha! Comrade Anklebiter's true name is revealed.
Vive le Galt!