Killing Zyrxog / Cursed Items (Spoilers)


Age of Worms Adventure Path

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Thought I'd post my party's final battle with Zyrxog last Saturday night.

We play using Fantasy Grounds VTT once a month (3.5 rules). After the short intro battle with Zyrxog at the climax of Sodden Hold, the party knew 2 things: what they were up against and that they didn't like being stunned with a brainsucker in the room.

Party makeup is as follows:
9th level Dwarven FIghter
9th level Elven Cleric
9th level Gnomish Beguiler
9th level Elven Ranger
9th level Human Healer (npc)
6th level Halfling Wizard/1st level Sorcerer/2nd level Ultimate Magus

The wizzy and cleric wisely spent some time in a Waterdeep library (my game is set in FR) researching illithids. (I spent a lot of time perusing these threads also, most notably to determine if the Spell Immunity spell would protect against mind blast or not. So when they finally went into Zyrxog's lair, they were prepared. The cleric, played by my wife, had racked 2 spell immunities, mass conviction and recitation. The healer brought in her unicorn companion right before the final battle (and this provides a +2 resistance bonus to saves due to MCAE effect in a 10' radius). So basically the fighter and the ranger became immune to the mind blast and everyone else had either a +5 or +7 bonus on saves against it. Needless to say, no one fell victim to either of the two mind blasts the levitating Zyrxog threw out there. They also fared pretty well against the slow gaze of the octopins. Note that I moved the Advanced Octopin from the Laboratory tank in M9 to the pool under Zyrgog's floating form.

The battle lasted about 6-7 rounds. The fighter and the cleric both toed to toed it with the Octopins and I dropped the fighter negative twice and almost killed him with an empowered scorching ray, though the healer would have negated that with revivify. My one boneheaded move was forgetting that the magic column also gave the Octopins fire resist 20 , so I let a couple of fireballs drop their hp a bit; but I think that all it did was maybe shorten the fight by a round or two. Ultimately, the ranger was the downfall of Zyrxog as well as a little help from the wizzy. (I imagine that using the correct mind blast DC of 20 versus 23 this time around also helped!) The ranger had just taken Improved Critical (longbow) as his 9th level feat and it helped as he got off 3 crits on the floating flayer in the course of 2 rounds (2 nat 20's and one nat 19). Breaths were held as he rolled first the confirmation roll and then the 50% miss chance (due to Zyrxog's displacement spell) and in all three cases the threats were confirmed. The wizzy had an acid arrow spell going on the flayer (note that AA doesn't allow SR!) and ultimately this was what took his hp below zero. I was hoping the characters would just allow the still levitating Zyrxog to cook his way past -10, but the archer decided to put another 3 arrows into it before the acid could finish him off.

What a fight and now on to being gladiators!

The second part of my post is a question. I wonder how many of you that have played through this adventure actually left the cursed items in M11 as is? It almost seems cruel after all the tough fights throughout Zyrxog's lair to give out cursed items as loot. Now, the flayer has some nice gear on him to give out, but these cursed items are darn near worthless, and can really screw up the characters. Opinions? Options?

I want to send out the identify session out in an email so as not to waste VTT game time at the next game, but I'm not sure how to run the cursed fare via email either. I know that per the DMG, there is a 1% chance per caster level of the identify to find out the cursed nature of the item, otherwise it appears to be a non-cursed version. I'm tempted to just make these regular magic items; what do you all think???

Thanks for reading and for your answers in advance!


Interesting fight.

In regards to the cursed items I'd say leave them out. My main reason for this is your obvously hesitating on using them and I generally feel that cursed items work best in a style of play in which the DM would not be hesitating. In essence 'if they were meant for your game, you would not need to ask'.

They work very well in certain 'old school' gaming styles but often feel very out of place if your not playing in one of these styles.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

Interesting fight.

In regards to the cursed items I'd say leave them out. My main reason for this is your obvously hesitating on using them and I generally feel that cursed items work best in a style of play in which the DM would not be hesitating. In essence 'if they were meant for your game, you would not need to ask'.

They work very well in certain 'old school' gaming styles but often feel very out of place if your not playing in one of these styles.

Well, I consider myself a pretty 'old-school' gamer as I've been playing since I was 12 (and I am 43 now). But even when I played 1st Edition, I always thought that they were kind of a pain and a dirty trick. I mean, one item in that room would be interesting, but the fact that all the items are cursed seems overkill. I also hate player versus player scenarios in the same vein. I actually stopped using the Appraise skill in my game because it is such a DM pain to have to remember which character knows the true value of an item (well within 10%) and which character thinks it is worth 200 times more than it is actually worth! When characters in my game find a 100gp gem, they all immediately know it is a 100gp gem without making a skill check.

Of course, the group is getting kind of cocky (especially the $%^& beguiler), so it's kind of tempting to pull a fast one on them.

I will say that once you start adding rules beyond the Core (the PHII, the SC and the Complete books for example), the waters start to get muddier. I know the beguiler is going to be the pain in my butt a lot of the time, but then again, the campaign gets more undead heavy from here on out, so he is going to feel like a third wheel a lot of time as well.

But I really like giving my players options. I think when you just play with the Core, it becomes easy to get burnt out on the same ole, same ole.

I appreciate your comments though; it's food for thought.


The problem I have with cursed items is the same problem I have with traps; they're interesting maybe once or twice, but then the players sometimes slow the game down to a crawl with paranoia after that.


I would have one of them be cursed, but all of them is overkill. My party, make that most of my party does not touch(use) anything that has been identified anyway, but I think cursed items food the identify spell*, but there is a spell they can not fool.

*Not to be taken as fact.


IMC, the items were cursed but could be redeemed for money to offer cool treasure.

Initially, the advantage is on the players side as that the items seem to be cursed (come on, who has nice magic items on display in a museum that hosts howling chains and pickled eyeballs?).

Now, after the sorcerer had opened the vacuous grimoire and suffered some ability drain, they knew that everything was probably cursed. Nonetheless, they took all the stuff along and paid a hefty sum to Grayhawks clergy of Boccob for two castings of restoration and one of analyze dweomer.

I don't remember the specifics, but most of the items could been redeemed for about 1/3 of the gp tag of the uncursed items. For instance, the party's ranger still treasures her bronze griffon, and the rogue/bard his luckblade. They actually managed to sell the cursed berserking sword to someone who didn't care. If you want to, I will look up my uncursed/redeemed items.

Happy gaming!

Liberty's Edge

My group never made it to Zyrxog's trophy room. He subdued them in the brain room when the foolishly decided to camp there after fighting the octopins.

It's a shame too. I stocked it with all sorts of interesting things, not all cursed. I chose a few items that were just odd or disturbing(like the troll gut rope from the Magic Item Compendium).

I am also using taint rules from Heroes of Horror, so some of the items would have brought Corruption and/or Depravity to their user(s).

I wanted it to be a matter of chance if they picked up a "good" item or a very, very "bad" one.


armnaxis wrote:
I don't remember the specifics, but most of the items could been redeemed for about 1/3 of the gp tag of the uncursed items. For instance, the party's ranger still treasures her bronze griffon, and the rogue/bard his luckblade. They actually managed to sell the cursed berserking sword to someone who didn't care. If you want to, I will look up my uncursed/redeemed items.

Yes, I'd be interested in having the full details, please. My players are in that room right now!


dmchucky69 wrote:
Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:

Interesting fight.

In regards to the cursed items I'd say leave them out. My main reason for this is your obvously hesitating on using them and I generally feel that cursed items work best in a style of play in which the DM would not be hesitating. In essence 'if they were meant for your game, you would not need to ask'.

They work very well in certain 'old school' gaming styles but often feel very out of place if your not playing in one of these styles.

Well, I consider myself a pretty 'old-school' gamer as I've been playing since I was 12 (and I am 43 now). But even when I played 1st Edition, I always thought that they were kind of a pain and a dirty trick.

Which kind of brings me back around to my point. You feel that using such items constitute a kind of 'dirty trick' by the DM. If these items where meant for your game you'd probably be desperately trying to create a straight face and not break out into Evil DM laughter while playing this trick on your players.

Really cursed items are a dirty trick. One of the dirtiest really because it takes something that the PCs start off thinking of as valuable and potentially a great addition for their character and then turns that against them. The trick is even more dirty if the DM gets lucky and greed plays a factor - the players don't take precautions that they might normally take because they are so excited about item X and how its going to improve their character that they get ahead of themselves...then the Evil DM turns the tables and screws them over royally.

I have a difficult time seeing any real happy middle ground with these types of items. They are either a pretty nasty DM dirty trick that will get almost any DM an 'Evil DM' tag from his players on the cheap or the DM more or less just makes sure that the players get their GP value out of the items. In which case it'd probably have been better to just skip the the cursed items step and given the players currency**.

A DM that does this sort of thing often is evil but predictable and won't catch his players off guard. The DM that does this very sparingly is going to royally screw one of his players over because the player will probably fall for it hook line and sinker and will, justifiably, view the trick as particularity dirty and rotten. So its not like the DM can easily just scale back this sort of thing as the rarer it is the more dangerous and negatively its likely to be viewed by the players when it does come up.

Hence, unless the DM is aiming to establish a moniker of "He's Evil - don't trust him" from his players its likely best to just stay away from these items. Now Player versus DM style gaming does have its upsides - in particular its an excellent tool for fostering teamwork among the players and a sense of camaraderie. They have a shared enemy - the DM. So I'm not particularly arguing that 'Evil DM' is either the right or the wrong way to play - that really needs to be decided by the individual groups in question.

** One possible exception here is to use this as part of an effort by the DM to show that cursed items exist in the world - they'll never catch the players by mutual understanding between the players and the DM but they could catch NPCs and might be the basis for the plot of an adventure or series of adventures. Curse of the Crimson Throne is an example of this. I don't recall there being any cursed items in that adventure except the one used by the main antagonist around which the plot line was built.


Callum wrote:


Yes, I'd be interested in having the full details, please. My players are in that room right now!

Here you go. General rules for redeeming can be found in the book of exhalted deeds. I changed from that a bit, requiring a Spellcraft check to be made by the person who casts analyze dweomer in order to ascertain whether it could be redeemed. The requirements are the same as crafting the original item (feats, spells and XP). I "translated" this to a gp price tag the PCs have to pay to the clergy of Boccob for taking care of this.

cursed +1 unholy dagger with "terrible misfortune":
Violett Blade
This +1 unholy short sword of unluck has a rather broad, dull grey blade. Violett flames lick occasionally over the sword.
- Owner must roll twice for each save, and take the worst result.
- The wearer may attack only with this weapon.
- Remove Curse is needed to get rid of the sword, once it was used in combat.
IDENTIFY: As +2 holy short sword
DETECT EVIL: no
REDEEM: luckblade, 0 wishes (Spellcraft DC25, 4000gp)
SELL: 6000gp
DESTROY: Remove Curse + Dispel Magic (CL20) + Smash

Figurine of Wondrous Power: Fiendish Bronze Griffon
This figurine can be redeemed, but only after the griffon has been summoned and then remove curse cast on him. Thereafter, it can be redeemed as normal.
IDENTIFY: As bronze griffon
DETECT EVIL: faint
REDEEM: Bronze Griffon (Spellcraft DC25, 2000gp)
SELL: 3000gp
DESTROY: Dispel Magic (CL20) + Smash

Vacous Grimoire
When opened: DC15 Will to avoid 1 INT drain, DC15 Will to avoid 2 WIS drain
ITENTIFY:
DETECT EVIL: yes
REDEEM: no
SELL: 2000gp
DESTROY: Remove Curse + burn

Berserking Sword
Go Beserk if used in battle (Rage until unconscious or dead or no living thing within 30ft.)
IDENTIFY: +2 greatsword
DETECT EVIL: no
REDEEM: no
SELL: 9000gp
DESTROY: Dispel Magic (CL20) & Remove Curse & Calm Emotions; remains +2 greatsword

Periapt of Foul Rotting
Drains 1 DEX, CON, CHA / week. To restore: Remove curse + remove disease + heal/miracle/limited wish/wish; or crush periapt of health and sprinkle dust on afflicted character
ITENTIFY: As periapt of health
DETECT EVIL: no
REDEEM: periapt of health (Spellcraft DC25, 4000gp)
SELL: 6000gp
DESTROY: Remove Curse + Dispel Magic + Cure Disease + Smash


Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:


Really cursed items are a dirty trick. One of the dirtiest really because it takes something that the PCs start off thinking of as valuable and potentially a great addition for their character and then turns that against them. The trick is even more dirty if the DM gets lucky and greed plays a factor - the players don't take precautions that they might normally take because they are so excited about item X and how its going to improve their character that they get ahead of themselves...then the Evil DM turns the tables and screws them over royally.

I agree to most of what you say, and would normally not incorporate cursed items IMC. It IS a dirty "trick". But in this very instance, I ruled otherwise, and in retrospect am happy I did.

My reasoning was that the cursed items found there were
a) not lethal (as a bag of devouring would have been),
b) amassed and almost had a sign on them "I AM CURSED DONT TOUCH ME",
c) my players were (well, still are) very greedy and I wanted them to know/feel it in-game,
d) I devised the above posted redeeming schemes so that they could still get away with some tangible benefit - after a shock, for sure, and some heavy investments,
e) they could rest afterwards almost indefinetely (cursed items are MUCH more dangerous when placed in the middle of a running adventure)
f) Zyrxog is THE guy who would do such a thing
g) At level 8/9, they have money to pay for remedies
h) my players were a little bit behind the treasure curve, as they are five.

YMMV, but we all had lots of fun.


armnaxis wrote:
Here you go. General rules for redeeming can be found in the book of exalted deeds.

Thanks very much! Would it be possible for you to give a quick overview of redeeming? I don't want you to quote the full rules, obviously, just give an idea of how it works...


Callum wrote:
armnaxis wrote:
Here you go. General rules for redeeming can be found in the book of exalted deeds.
Thanks very much! Would it be possible for you to give a quick overview of redeeming? I don't want you to quote the full rules, obviously, just give an idea of how it works...

Well, it's pretty simple actually... In the BoED, redeeming ist presented as a way to craft magic items, but instead of requiring item creation feats, the appropriate spells, half the base price in gp, and 1/25th of the base price in XP; it uses the same feats, the same appropiate spells, XP - and an unholy magic item. Other examples are given for "evil" magic items, like a demon hide.

So, a +1 unholy longsword can be redeemed into a +1 holy longsword. XP cost is calculated only for the cost of creating a holy enchantment, not the base enchantment (In this example, (18000-2000)/25 = 640XP).

I apply my own take on redeeming only for such items that have a history and were actually not created for evil means on purpose. There are many unholy weapons in the AoWAP, and I don't want every single one to be redeemed for low cost by my players. The gp tag I put in my post above is calculated backwards from the XP cost it would take to redeem an item with that base price, times 5 gp per XP as the PHB suggests (640*5 = 3200gp in the above example).

Well, it could be that the numbers I have put are a bit off, I guess... make your own assumptions. Selling cursed items, per the DMG, is ok but I rule you get only 1/3 of the base price (IF you find a customer). That monetary "loss" if you don't sell, plus the gp you pay for redeeming, should be about 1/2 the base price - as if you had found and sold a non-cursed item. If your players are closer to the recommended wealth than my were at that time, I recommend changing that.

Liberty's Edge

I really don't see how cursed items violate the "social contract" between DM and players any more or less than other elements of the game. You wouldn't feel betrayed if you failed to notice a trap, and then had to deal with the repercussions of springing it, would you? IMO, cursed items are just another kind of encounter to deal with, and an interesting one, at that. It can become a tactical question (Are there creative ways in which we can make these items work for us?), or even a moral question (Is it acceptable to profit from the sale of items that could be wielded against the forces of Good?).

In our AoW group, we struggled to find some balance between responsibly handling "evil" items, and actually managing to acquire some spendable loot. We worked out with the DM that since Zodal is a god of redemption, his clerics have perfected a process by which they can redeem even cursed or evil items. We still don't get anything approaching market value for the items they buy from us, but we do receive some coin, and can rest easy in the knowledge that our gain does not come at the expense of another band of heroes confronted by villains wielding the vile objects. Additionally, the laughably small shrine of Zodal that we frequent (the joke being that in a wizard/rogue-heavy city like Greyhawk, there's not a lot of reverence for mercy) was recently upgraded to an actual temple, due in no small part to our party's contributions, which gave even our greedy wizard a real sense of accomplishment.

The DM is also considering letting us study with the priests to learn the sacred art of redemption, which may be a feat unto itself, rather than requiring other item creation feats. Of course, it wouldn't allow one to craft a holy sword from scratch, but would be a bit more versatile. I think it is a cool idea, because I can see it setting up quests in the future, perhaps for epic post-AoW adventures, or possibly plot hooks for new adventurers, with our AoW characters as the patrons. (Presuming we survive the AP, of course...XP) We thought the rules presented in BoED were a decent starting point, if nothing else.

Of course, maybe I'm a bit biased in this discussion, since the Zyrxog "treasure room" gave my (sometimes overly-)cautious character an opportunity to say, "See? SEE? I told you those items were not to be trusted!" :)


I left the items as is, althought I fudged how one or two of the items worked.

My personal view would be that cursed items work well as another type of challenge for the players, as long as they're not overused, and there are ways to remove the curse.

I don't remember what my group did with the grimoire. The Dagger was handed over to a good church for destruction.

The Periapt I had work slightly differently, reducing 1-3 of the stats (determined at random) each week, to avoid the player in question turning to the rules and determining what course of action was required to correct the problem.

The player tried a number of things, and the periapt led the PC to seek out the Librarian-Priest in Magepoint for advice. The player enjoyed using disintegrate to rid the world of the periapt, once the cure was determined and the PC cured of the curse.

The cursed sword was grabbed by the party's Druid/Barbarian, who didn't use it for quite some time. The group was able to subdue the PC after it's first use, and the threat of the PC using it again became a recurring joke.

The Griffon I modified to require a control check by the PC, with the Griffon having some ability to act on it's own. If the check was made, then the PC could direct the Griffon, although the PC would sense that the Griffon was fighting that. If the check failed, then the Griffon would act as written.

The party's Paladin picked up the Griffon... and didn't seek to use it until the group had determined that both the sword and the periapt were cursed items. Suspecting it was as well, the Paladin went to use it - and made a successful check. The Griffon is now a museum piece in MagePoint's Library.

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