Aotrscommander RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |
Thanks to WotC's star maneuver with the PDFs, I have been able to start picking up the Rise of the Runelords months ahead of what I'd initially planned.
Right, so herein lies the problem. My standard party size is six, not four. This hasn't been a problem with Shackled City, since that was diesgned for six, but it might be with the Pathfinder modules and paths.
Now, I ran WotC's Lost Caverns 3.5 version relatively recently. [Aside]Which utterly failed to ever make me want to get any more PDF adventures from them - among their other sins, the bloody map was light grey on light blue - and when i printed it out in black and white as the cheap bastard I am, it was grey on slightly different grey. Neither was easy to trace for the PCs;I had to hold the ruddy thing up to the light in order to get anywhere...[/Aside]
That was a bit of a travesty. I increased all the numbers of monsters by +50%, as well as all the treasure (and added in +50% extra kit to make up the value). Any 'boss' monsters or creature encountered alone, I maxed out the hit points of. I also gave the party a choice of being 10th level, with high stats (basically 18,16,14,12,10,8 roughly) or 11th level and slightly lower stats. They opted for the former. Both my groups are allowed full access to the entire of 3.5 (at least as far as class, spells and feats go PrC are a bit more variable.) I gave them level appropriate gear.
And they completely minced the campaign. For various reasons, though notable the Crusader could have soled it, breaking the game she did by having level appropriate armour and a shield.
Anyway, while I blame this mainly on the fact Tsojcanth was full of crap, moribund low-level encounters pulverised by three martial adepts, the adventure was still indicative.
So, what is going to be the best way to bump the difficulty for six characters? This is mostly a minimum effort job, since if I wanted to go from scratch, I'd be using the pre-3.x modules I've got for this purpose (and that takes bloody ages...) Also given the fact that in both groups the players work well together; especially my Monday group who work in a Horrifically Flawless Team of Doom most of the time.
I reckon there's nothing wrong with the theory of increasing the number of monsters that come in two or more by 50% (argueably with my crazy-ass players, maxing the hits out too!) Also, I've knocked up a conversion package for my own house rules (basically, things like for Fighters, whom I give a feat every level, knocking up a list of what non-core feats extra they have). So, theyre not really the problem
It's the 'boss' monsters if you will, that cause me the problems. While a single enemy character might be a challenge to four players, the extra firepower from six is usually going to vastly swing things the PCs way. Maxing out the hit points is a given, but's it's nowhere near enough.
As I see it at the moment, I can see four options:
1) Add extra levels to those NPCs.
2) Add an extra lower-level henchdude
3) If dealing with a monster, not a character, just have two or them not one
4) Apply my own Solo template to them (which basically gives 'em twice the hit points and some free get-out-of-SoD rerolls provided there's not too many minions about).
So, folks, has anybody got any better or different ideas?
Aotrscommander RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |
Majuba |
Thanks, that's a good start at any rate. Probably won't use it verbatim, but it'll cut down on my own effort a huge chunk.
You also might do absolutely nothing, or very little. They will have an easier time at the beginning, certainly, but as time goes on they will be lower level, with a larger group to balance it out. The XP system (even inverted with PFRPG) handles this perfectly and "adjusts" the characters level to be equivalent.
Aotrscommander RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |
Aotrscommander wrote:Thanks, that's a good start at any rate. Probably won't use it verbatim, but it'll cut down on my own effort a huge chunk.You also might do absolutely nothing, or very little. They will have an easier time at the beginning, certainly, but as time goes on they will be lower level, with a larger group to balance it out. The XP system (even inverted with PFRPG) handles this perfectly and "adjusts" the characters level to be equivalent.
Given our style, doing nothing would be deterimental to the game, I fear.
Unfortunately, I find the CR system tends not be good for anything except a measure of how much XP I give out (typically, we give out half XP for combat, adding the rest with story or quest awards anyway). It's certainly no indication of actual challenge to the party in my experience. (Given we don't follow the four-core-character, 25-point buy paradigm.)
If I just leave it as it, the benefit of concentration of fire onto point targets (and believe me, the point targets will be getting serious fire from a party that will be very well to superbly optimised mechanically and, most important, tactically) will more than out weigh that they may be slightly lower level. (And I say maybe, since without crunching the numbers, I could see that they might not actually be only 67% of the level of a four-player party but a bit higher, with the sharp step in XP between level and CR. Similar to the whole 3.5 XP magic item crafter actually squeezing more XP out by staying a bit behind.)
The players regularly take on well-to-superly optimised opponents significantly above their level (70% of the groups are wargamers well versed in rules and tactics and more than a slightly dose of fluky dice rolls) when I do my own stats; and with mostly Core material most Pathfinder modules opponents aren't that close, unfortunately.
I mean I could do nothing, but I don't think then the boss villains would pose much of a challenge. (Don't really care about the chaff encounters, since that's what they're there for!)
Eric Tillemans |
With 6 PCs who know how to optimize and play together well, I would add 2 levels (or HD) to every boss and make sure to never let a boss fight your group solo. Add in 2 to 4 of the typical monsters the party has been encountering to act as guards and distractions for the fight with the boss.
Otherwise +50% numbers for the standard encounters will work.
Majuba |
(And I say maybe, since without crunching the numbers, I could see that they might not actually be only 67% of the level of a four-player party but a bit higher, with the sharp step in XP between level and CR. Similar to the whole 3.5 XP magic item crafter actually squeezing more XP out by staying a bit behind.)
Correct, they'd be about 1.5 levels behind a 4 player group.
Adjusting for the quality of your group is another factor - one you can't compensate for by simply increasing the numbers (and thus handing out more XP), because that will make them stronger still.
Add some terrain features, low level "roadbump" minions that aren't worth much xp, and/or max the HP of your Boss's.
Of course, in general, there is no reason to "punish" a group that plays well. But if they are eager for a challenge, give it to them without compounding your problem later :)
Aotrscommander RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |
With 6 PCs who know how to optimize and play together well, I would add 2 levels (or HD) to every boss and make sure to never let a boss fight your group solo. Add in 2 to 4 of the typical monsters the party has been encountering to act as guards and distractions for the fight with the boss.
Otherwise +50% numbers for the standard encounters will work.
I learned fairly early on in 3.0 that solitary bosses die super-fast. In my own games, a boss fight will have one boss and several high-ranking minions (and they'll be spellcaster support in their, garenteed!) plus some chaff minions.
Adding a few more lieutenants seems like a good quick fix, actually. As opposed to just slapping down more chaff. One of those sort of obvious ideas I tend to overlook while overcomplicating things... (Though I might be tempted to whack out the odd Aotrs-optimised minion using my full available resoucres, actually, just to keep the PCs on their toes.)
I do not think I have ever been in a group where the same six people showed up consistently. I do not think I have ever been in a group where the same four people showed up consistently. I do not think I would know what to do if I had the opportunity to plan in advance for such a core.
The core group of our Monday group have been playing together for nearly twenty years. To be fair, they're down to four players (plus the DM) at the moment, but they'll be still using six characters for quite a while, since they're slated for Shackled City first and most of out current parties stem from when we had a couple more guys; playing two characters at once doesn't phase anybody anymore! They were my first roleplaying group, actually.
While our Thursday group, granted, don't always all make it (one of them is a policeman, so he can only make about three out of four weeks) everyone turns up most of the time.
(By the by, our groups run on the principle the DM keeps the character sheets and if someone's away, the other players run any other characters. This does not slow the game down in the slightest.)
With both, the average size of party has always been about six. We've always considered that to be the ideal size, since you can have the basics but room for redunacy and folks to do something different.
If you think six players is a lot, you'd shudder to think, I imagine, the sort of level of tactical complexity and bit-count I run my games at. My personal best is the final encounter of the 3.5 converted Die Vecna Die!, where there were six PCs (at 14-15 level), three NPCs (whom two at the point of writing I had foolishly thought the players would need the help of against Vecna) of about the same or a bit higher - on the PCs side and Vecna's Avatar, two higher-power special Hand and Eye golems, an Epic Evil cleric plus some other evil clerics, plus minions on the other.
And of course, everyone's favoruite Rolemaster group has about twleve characters scattered over seven players...
So really, dealing with six players barely registers to me! It's all about practise. (That and the fact none of out players are session hogs or drama queens, so I don't have to do a lot to control them. Though my Monday group is just about perfect in that regard.)
Xaaon of Xen'Drik |
ON THE 4e board recently the discussion of minions was afoot...
But it gave me an idea on how to incorporate a "minion" into 3.5 without actually making it a 1HP wonder...
Use the 1 or 2 HP+CONMOD/HD formula. It will create weak opponents that can still put some hurt on your characters. Give them 1/2 XP for these opponents.
Example: 6th Level Warrior with a 12 CON
Equipped like a 6th level NPC, has a +6BAB (and a few feats to help make them memorable), but only has 12 or 18 hit points. Put 10 of these out there, they fall like kobolds but are still a threat.
I had been giving all my NPCs 80% of HP max to account for the power increase of Pathfinder characters, but it made for more drawn out battles, that have been slugging along...
(I am MOST definitely not a 4E fan...and I consider 1HP wonders a joke...BUT, 18 HP is a 1 or 2 hit wonder that can really put a challenge to the characters if they have the drop)
Major_Tom |
I agree with Eric. I've had six players in my group for almost 30 years (okay, every five or ten years someone leaves and we add a new one), and the most important thing is to not let the boss fight alone - he's toast. Even a few chaff, if they've had some spellcaster buffs, can make a difference. But add a hit dice or two, a couple of bodyguards, and they'll be challenged. If they plan and plot and take the bad guys apart, good for them. Good strategy and teamwork should always be rewarded.
With my group, it's a mix. We have some very good players, and when they feel like it, they can take apart any monster. But some times they just feel silly, or someone does something stupid, and they decide to let them pay. The time the rogue (with no darkvision) hid in the dark closet with the spectre, for example. Eventually they restored him, but he had to play a few days having 'gained' 8 negative levels. Or the time the party cleric (who had been out sick for three weeks) finally showed up and the paladin said 'We have a cleric. It's only a hundred feet down to where the dragon is, I jump on him!'. The cleric threatened to leave the group right there, but it didn't do any good. Oh, and the paladin hurt the dragon almost as much as he hurt himself. He had to do his own healing though.
Aotrscommander RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32 |
ON THE 4e board recently the discussion of minions was afoot...
But it gave me an idea on how to incorporate a "minion" into 3.5 without actually making it a 1HP wonder...
I have discussed this with one of my players actually. I found when I converted Dragon Mountain I ended up in a kit spiral because the monster needed the kit to be able to hit the PCs - who then use the loot to get harder...And the numbers of foes are quite high. Had I heard of minions at the time, I could have done a better job.
We figured, actully, you would just leave them as one hit and they die (and one point of ability damage and they drop), and do saves as normal. The point of minions is they are chaff. What I normally use as chaff is about half the level of the PCs, which usually gives 'em a hit or two to go down. But on the other hand, they're usually too weak to do much damage. Making 'em glass cannons would be a much better way of capturing the feel and it would reduce the amount of kit bonuses they;d need. I fully intend to test this out the next time I actually get around to writing a game.
Never let it be said there's not a few ideas worth swiping for 4E occasionally...
The more I think about it, the more I think I'll have to bite the bullet and knock up some supplementary stats for the boss's hench minions. I guess there really isn't a quick fix for increasing party size. (Though I'll no doubt try out my 3.5 solo templete as well.)
I'll have to sign off at that, for the moment, as I'm going away tomorrow over Easter (so don't anyone be shocked if I don't reply to the thread for a few days!)
By the by, a typical example of a boss fight I write myself, when I last wrote a D&D adventure was the following, pitted against a party of 8th level characters (warlock, psion, ardent, duskblade, unicorn dragon shaman, psychic warrior and swordsage with a septuplet of level 5 followers I tried desparately and failed to kill!):
12th level spirit shaman
10th level ranger
2 6th level trackers (effectively a spell-less ranger variant class)
6 4th level fighter (melee)
6 4th level archer specialists.
It was a pretty even match, actually; the PCs could have wona bit more easil,y but the Ardent (who was the sarge (actually decurion) of the NPCs) has a 'no casulaties' rule...)