WotC halts PDF sales


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Sovereign Court

Vic Wertz wrote:
I like that story.

I like that story too, Vic. Thank you for the reminder that this type of reasonable action, along with healthy communication still happens between respectful parties.

I just got back from my favorite game store and can share that what has happened with these .pdfs seems to be part of a much wider action - something big is happening because wotc has made some, possibly many, game stores re-sign contractual agreements with respect to agreeing to NOT sell overseas!

I will let those wiser than me interpret this...


Lisa Stevens wrote:

For your edification, here is another interview with Greg Leeds on retailer website icV2. The most interesting part is where he says that theories that WotC is going to sell PDFs themselves are "incorrect." Makes me wonder whether they are going to sell the books through Kindle and Sony's e-reader, like their novels are being sold right now.

-Lisa

Wow, he even responded with some of the exact wording from the other (ENWorld) interview... how's that for a locked down and polished official statement!

And where he diverged from the copy&paste answers from the other interview (or vice versa, don't know which one was performed first), we mostly get a lot of nothing again.

Blazej wrote:
Paul Hedges wrote:
10 to 1 of what number?
10 (illegal downloads) : 1 (legal download)

I think Paul wanted to know some more exact numbers. I was wondering the same thing myself.

10:1 might sound like a lot, but if they've only sold 100 PH2 pdfs, then it only amounts to 1000 illegal downloads (note, speculative numbers here!).
From the interview above, Mr. Leeds even admits that pdf sales of 4E is a very small part of their overall sales. And with the apparent success of 4E (according to WotC, of course) and with pdf prices at full cover price, the pdf sales might actually be rather modest.


Andrew Turner wrote:

Now I might just buy some WotC novels for Kindle. That would be pretty awesome, in fact.

//open threadjack//
Edit: Just read the article--I'm happy to hear the novels are being released for Kindle, Here's a Salvatore novel.

I like these because I'd read the book in the house, and take the Kindle when I travel.//close threadjack//

VagrantWhisper wrote:
Hmm Kindle would be cool.

Oh yes, let's, once again, only focus on the US market...

Guess what, the Kindle doesn't work all over the world, but I'm sure WotC don't care about the rest of us either. I mean, obviously we're all just a bunch of pirates over here... [/end slightly sarcastic tone]

EDIT: Not to mention the very prohibitive cost of the Kindle... if it would work outside the US (and Canada?).

Dark Archive

Well the interviews seem to be Someone speaking a lot without really saying much. I mean 10-1 Ratio in piracy I can see as a justification for not releasing anything new in PDF format but pulling the stuff you already have makes no sense.

Also there could be other reasons why in the case of the 10-1 ratio for players handbook 2 (Please be aware I am not condoning piracy just giving a possible explanation why) 1 unable to purchase a physical copy because of it being sold out and 2 having to pay full price or near full price for a legal PDF.

Dark Archive

GentleGiant wrote:


10:1 might sound like a lot, but if they've only sold 100 PH2 pdfs, then it only amounts to 1000 illegal downloads (note, speculative numbers here!).

The other problem with using ratio's like that is that they also often don't take into consideration opportunity costs vs. actual costs.

Ya, 10 may have been distributed for every 1 sold, but if only 2 of those 10 would have paid for it, if it weren't offered for free, then the actual loss is substantially less than what's inferred because 8 of those people wouldn't have given you the money in the first place - regardless of format.


Dragonchess Player wrote:
1) They didn't just stop sales on no notice, they required distributors to pull the plug completely in an extremely short timeframe, even if that meant legitimate customers would be unable to get content they paid for. There's a big difference between that and an immediate halt to new sales, with a reasonable timeframe (2-3 days) for customers to download material they had already bought.

If they already got a download, then they already got the content they paid for. I don't know why we have to keep running around this bush again. If a customer doesn't back up their own material then they are ignorant or naive. At least two different pdf sellers, one of which is Paizo, have said that there was never any kind of guarantee that anyone was going to get more than one download.

A lot (perhaps most) online content sellers of non-gaming material only give you one download total. People lost a bonus and they act like they are being punished.

Dragonchess Player wrote:
2) They refuse to say anything about why it was so time-critical for them to act in such a high-handed manner. This goes back to being a PR blunder. If there was a compelling need for them to act immediately even if it caused consumer anger, why don't they explain it and mend their reputation?

LOL. Rrrriiiigggghhhhtttt.


GentleGiant wrote:
Andrew Turner wrote:

Now I might just buy some WotC novels for Kindle. That would be pretty awesome, in fact.

//open threadjack//
Edit: Just read the article--I'm happy to hear the novels are being released for Kindle, Here's a Salvatore novel.

I like these because I'd read the book in the house, and take the Kindle when I travel.//close threadjack//

VagrantWhisper wrote:
Hmm Kindle would be cool.

Oh yes, let's, once again, only focus on the US market...

Guess what, the Kindle doesn't work all over the world, but I'm sure WotC don't care about the rest of us either. I mean, obviously we're all just a bunch of pirates over here... [/end slightly sarcastic tone]

EDIT: Not to mention the very prohibitive cost of the Kindle... if it would work outside the US (and Canada?).

And why in the hades would I want to shell out another couple hundred dollars for a file reader when I have a perfectly good laptop...If they go to this reader format they damn sure better come out with a reader app for computers. I think it would be ridiculous to think that everyone would go and shell out $200 to $300 for a file reader just so they can once again use the digital copies...and thus this would just encourage more piracy...WotC are just a bunch of numskulls...bring on the Pathfinder RPG

Sovereign Court

How can they track illegal downloads? It seems like it would be incredibly difficult to get an accruate number.

Dark Archive

GentleGiant wrote:

Oh yes, let's, once again, only focus on the US market...

Guess what, the Kindle doesn't work all over the world, but I'm sure WotC don't care about the rest of us either.

Actually, I'm a Canadian living in Canada, I just thought the Kindle would be cool under the assumption that one day it might work up here.

I'm not holding my breath though - we still can't get Netflix, and it took us ages to get iTunes ...

Either way, with WotC's previous talents at handling digital initiatives I'm not really holding out hope for any reasonble/functional/cost-sensitive solution.


Scott Betts wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
They just discovered the pirating according to the early response, but they can track it. <-----Makes not sense.

They didn't just discover piracy. They have known about piracy for as long as any of us have. They just recently noticed a significant spike in pirating of their products that coincided with the release of the PHB2, because they've been tracking it.

That answer makes perfect sense.

I know they already knew about it, but when they first addressed it they made it sound like piracy of their products was a new discovery, and then they try to say they can track it.

From the WoTC boards-->Unfortunately, due to recent findings of illegal copying and online distribution (piracy) of our products, Wizards of the Coast has decided to cease the sales of online PDFs.

Link

Dark Archive

Pax Veritas wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
I like that story.

I like that story too, Vic. Thank you for the reminder that this type of reasonable action, along with healthy communication still happens between respectful parties.

I just got back from my favorite game store and can share that what has happened with these .pdfs seems to be part of a much wider action - something big is happening because wotc has made some, possibly many, game stores re-sign contractual agreements with respect to agreeing to NOT sell overseas!

I will let those wiser than me interpret this...

Hmm.. I wonder what's going on?


Nameless wrote:
How can they track illegal downloads? It seems like it would be incredibly difficult to get an accruate number.

They can't. Software companies that get pirated more than WoTC, and are better at technical issues can't do it, so I am sure WoTC can't. They can try to gauge an estimate, but so can I, however I would not bet money that my estimation, if I had one, or WotCs' "tracking" was even close to the real number, whatever it may be.


Vic Wertz wrote:

However, I can tell you a story about a time not so long ago when Goodman Games and a number of other publishers decided that they needed to stop selling their d20 PDFs. (For simplicity, I'll just refer to Goodman in the following paragraphs, though the situation was similar for several other publishers.)

Goodman Games has contractual agreements with us to sell their product catalog. Goodman notified us that they wished to stop selling some of their products on a given date in the future. We asked Goodman if we could keep the files available after that date to those who had already purchased them, and Goodman said that was fine with them. We then let our customers know that the products were going to become unavailable for purchase soon, and we cooperated with Goodman to run a sale on those PDFs in their final days of availability. Finally, we made them unavailable for purchase at the appropriate time. No contracts needed to be cancelled, or even revised, and Goodman, Paizo, and many customers were satisfied.

I just wanted to make sure this was not lost in the many posts.

Read the non-bolded parts also.


Sornyth the Dark wrote:
And why in the hades would I want to shell out another couple hundred dollars for a file reader when I have a perfectly good laptop...If they go to this reader format they damn sure better come out with a reader app for computers. I think it would be ridiculous to think that everyone would go and shell out $200 to $300 for a file reader just so they can once again use the digital copies...and thus this would just encourage more piracy...WotC are just a bunch of numskulls...bring on the Pathfinder RPG

It's as if I don't even post.

Or did you mean an app you had to pay for, endorsed by WotC?


Disenchanter wrote:
Sornyth the Dark wrote:
And why in the hades would I want to shell out another couple hundred dollars for a file reader when I have a perfectly good laptop...If they go to this reader format they damn sure better come out with a reader app for computers. I think it would be ridiculous to think that everyone would go and shell out $200 to $300 for a file reader just so they can once again use the digital copies...and thus this would just encourage more piracy...WotC are just a bunch of numskulls...bring on the Pathfinder RPG

It's as if I don't even post.

Or did you mean an app you had to pay for, endorsed by WotC?

I think he was replying to the idea of using kindle which is over 300 dollars.


Here's a revealing part to the iCV2 interview:

icv2 wrote:


Others think that you’re planning on making access to your digital content by subscription, rather than DTO (download-to-own). Does Wizards plan to make its D&D products available digitally as part of DnDI?
Much of our content is already available on D&D Insider through the Character Builder and Compendium. We are still looking into other options for the digital distribution of the rest of our content.

Now the 3rd party support has been cut off for Pathfinder has been cut off, I'd put money down that they'll release a Rhapsody style service to access the old material.

Seriously cack-handed PR strategy here- all I can say is at least they're consistent.


concerro wrote:
Disenchanter wrote:
Sornyth the Dark wrote:
And why in the hades would I want to shell out another couple hundred dollars for a file reader when I have a perfectly good laptop...If they go to this reader format they damn sure better come out with a reader app for computers. I think it would be ridiculous to think that everyone would go and shell out $200 to $300 for a file reader just so they can once again use the digital copies...and thus this would just encourage more piracy...WotC are just a bunch of numskulls...bring on the Pathfinder RPG

It's as if I don't even post.

Or did you mean an app you had to pay for, endorsed by WotC?

I think he was replying to the idea of using kindle which is over 300 dollars.

I get that.

While I didn't get into specifics, the Sony eReader proprietary file format has been cracked and a cross platform app has been written to allow you to download the files from the eReader to your computer, and read them.
The Kindle, uses files you could already store, and transport, on your computer, but had some form of DRM on it. An app has been released that removes that DRM, and since the files are just a form of HTML allows you to read them on your computer.

On the other hand, Sornyth the Dark could be requesting a WotC endorsed app that they are selling to use those file on a computer.

Dark Archive

Disenchanter wrote:


On the other hand, Sornyth the Dark could be requesting a WotC endorsed app that they are selling to use those file on a computer.

How long do you think it'll take an 'open source' version to pop up, should WotC make their own app?


Jason Beardsley wrote:
Disenchanter wrote:


On the other hand, Sornyth the Dark could be requesting a WotC endorsed app that they are selling to use those file on a computer.
How long do you think it'll take an 'open source' version to pop up, should WotC make their own app?

My honest opinion?

A year, at most.

Look how quickly the iPhone was unlocked - although there is more widespread interest/demand for the iPhone... (And I took that into account with my estimate.)

EDIT:: Thinking on this further... I would guess two months. WotC basically challenged the pirates by stating they are going to find a format that stops them.


Dragonchess Player wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:
For your edification, here is another interview with Greg Leeds on retailer website icV2. The most interesting part is where he says that theories that WotC is going to sell PDFs themselves are "incorrect." Makes me wonder whether they are going to sell the books through Kindle and Sony's e-reader, like their novels are being sold right now.
A different method indeed... I can see how they may want to sweeten the pot by offering exclusive distribution rights to the content as part of that sort of deal (pure speculation on my part).

Yeah Kindle, that would be awesome. I can't wait to see how that WAR cover art would look on the Kindle, oh wait. Well, I bet the Kindle will be totally awesome with all those tables that appear in most D&D products...

There's a reason why the lynx browser makes up less than.1% of all web browser usage.

Leeds wrote:
I can tell you that we conservatively estimate the ratio of illicit downloads to legally purchased copies was 10:1.

They estimate, because they don't actually know. Yes, I saw the post interview footnote, no, they can't "track" it.

My "estimate" is that someone at WotC compared the number of illicit downloads from Scribd, which are noted in their three civil complaint filings, to actual download numbers from RPGNow/OBS, and arrived at this ratio. Of course, if WotC is anything like any of the corporations I've worked for, then the number is inflated by at least a factor of 3.


Disenchanter wrote:


I get that.

While I didn't get into specifics, the Sony eReader proprietary file format has been cracked and a cross platform app has been written to allow you to download the files from the eReader to your computer, and read them.
The Kindle, uses files you could already store, and transport, on your computer, but had some form of DRM on it. An app has been released that removes that DRM, and since the files are just a form of HTML allows you to read them on your computer.

On the other hand, Sornyth the Dark could be requesting a WotC endorsed app that they are selling to use those file on a computer.

No definitely not...I'd prefer to give WotC as little of my money in the future as possible...I just want access to digital copies of the products I have without having to be online to view them which is what I'm guessing they are going to if they are trying to tie it to DDI.

Sorry if I jumped on your idea...and I had no idea those file types already had workable readers. If that's the case, I guess it isn't such a huge deal, but I still think they are wasting their time with this whole thing. No matter what form it takes, if it is an independent file, some pirate will find away to duplicate it and spread it all over the interwebs.


Disenchanter wrote:

My honest opinion?

A year, at most.

Look how quickly the iPhone was unlocked - although there is more widespread interest/demand for the iPhone... (And I took that into account with my estimate.)

EDIT:: Thinking on this further... I would guess two months. WotC basically challenged the pirates by stating they are going to find a format that stops them.

If that long...it's like WotC is trying to get themselves hacked. One thing I know from my compsec training is that you never ever challenge hackers to break through the security on your network...that's like a deathwish and if your boss doesn't fire you on the spot, he/she will when your network collapses under the barrage of every hacker that got wind of your "Bring it on!" bravado.


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Pax Veritas wrote:
I just got back from my favorite game store and can share that what has happened with these .pdfs seems to be part of a much wider action - something big is happening because wotc has made some, possibly many, game stores re-sign contractual agreements with respect to agreeing to NOT sell overseas!

That sounds seriously weird. Not selling overseas? What would they gain from that?

Liberty's Edge

F33b wrote:
...Yeah Kindle, that would be awesome. I can't wait to see how that WAR cover art would look on the Kindle, oh wait. Well, I bet the Kindle will be totally awesome with all those tables that appear in most D&D products...

Maybe Kindle 3 or 4 will have a full color screen--but I'm not interested in RPG products on Kindle (or my computer--the Paizo PDFs that come with my subscription are icing, but not why I subscribe; I only ever bought PDFs of RPG products that weren't available in print or were OOP). Novels, on the other hand, are awesome on a Kindle. I'm excited to see WotC novels offered for Kindle.


Zaister wrote:
Pax Veritas wrote:
I just got back from my favorite game store and can share that what has happened with these .pdfs seems to be part of a much wider action - something big is happening because wotc has made some, possibly many, game stores re-sign contractual agreements with respect to agreeing to NOT sell overseas!
That sounds seriously weird. Not selling overseas? What would they gain from that?

Who knows? I get the impression that when someone from WotC adds 2+2 the answer they get is Tuesday!


Zaister wrote:
Pax Veritas wrote:
I just got back from my favorite game store and can share that what has happened with these .pdfs seems to be part of a much wider action - something big is happening because wotc has made some, possibly many, game stores re-sign contractual agreements with respect to agreeing to NOT sell overseas!
That sounds seriously weird. Not selling overseas? What would they gain from that?

Depends if WotC does exclusive market sales. Many manufacturers sign exclusive regional distribution arrangements based on country -- they can charge more for the exclusivity.

If they do, then they have to make sure that their other customers respect those regional boundaries. Sales into territories that are outside your available region are termed grey-market.

It happens between the U.S. and Canada a lot.

Dark Archive

mark logan wrote:
Zaister wrote:
Pax Veritas wrote:
I just got back from my favorite game store and can share that what has happened with these .pdfs seems to be part of a much wider action - something big is happening because wotc has made some, possibly many, game stores re-sign contractual agreements with respect to agreeing to NOT sell overseas!
That sounds seriously weird. Not selling overseas? What would they gain from that?

Depends if WotC does exclusive market sales. Many manufacturers sign exclusive regional distribution arrangements based on country -- they can charge more for the exclusivity.

If they do, then they have to make sure that their other customers respect those regional boundaries. Sales into territories that are outside your available region are termed grey-market.

It happens between the U.S. and Canada a lot.

Look at the contract WoTC has now for Magic, you have to put down your country and say you won't do sales outside your territory or grey-sales.

I predict big time increase on Ebay for WoTC products


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So that might even mean no more D&D at all in Germany? The German license was terminated and no successor company is in sight, and now WotC wants to ban the sale of English books to foreign markets? Not that I'm really all that keen on buying 4E books, but I can't see what they might be trying to accomplish there...

Sovereign Court

Zaister wrote:
Pax Veritas wrote:
I just got back from my favorite game store and can share that what has happened with these .pdfs seems to be part of a much wider action - something big is happening because wotc has made some, possibly many, game stores re-sign contractual agreements with respect to agreeing to NOT sell overseas!
That sounds seriously weird. Not selling overseas? What would they gain from that?

Yes. Seriously weird. I'd like some smart thoughts on this because I couldn't wrap my mind around it.

,,, On an unrelated note:
Last night I dreamed that we started a Web site that collected money from donors to "BUY WIZARDS." I believe they are a public company... at least we could get enough to have a say on the board - if not a majority share. Thoughts?


Pax Veritas wrote:


<snip>
,,, On an unrelated note:
Last night I dreamed that we started a Web site that collected money from donors to "BUY WIZARDS." I believe they are a public company... at least we could get enough to have a say on the board - if not a majority share. Thoughts?

Hasbro, WotC parent has a market cap > 3.75 billion U.S.

You'll probably need > 10% to get a seat on the board. so, you're looking to collect $400,000,000 for a seat and $2,500,000,000 for anything approaching majority share.

So, you'll need 4,000,000 people to donate an average of $100 each. We know that up to 6,000,000 play the game worldwide of which less than a million probably play 4e.

I don't like the chances.


Scott Betts wrote:
The 10:1 illegal to legal PDF ratio is pretty startling. Over 90% of all copies of 4th Edition PDFs floating around now are not legitimate, even when legitimate copies were available for sale.

Scott, as an academic working on P2P technology who has a passing familiarity with the measurement studies, I can assure you 10:1 is not a particularly startling number. More than one recent traffic study of the Internet found that a majority of Internet traffic in N. America and Europe is P2P related, and a majority of that is copyright infringing. At night, this ratio can go as high as 8:1-10:1. None of these numbers include the huge amount of piracy from sites like rapidshare, etc.

How many of these illegal downloads would translate to actual sales? In various studies the answer has been virtually none...at current price levels. It took ten years for the music industry to understand this (partially); now their only growth market is online sales.

If WotC thinks that they could sell 10, or even 2 additional books if the torrents, usenet posts, rapidshare, fastrack, eMule, etc, were removed, they are kidding themselves. They are also delusional if they believe removing online sales will reduce piracy. Halt or never starting online sales has not worked for a single industry and it will not work for WotC. There will be leaks, there will be scanned copies. Never underestimate the time a dedicated teenager will waste correcting a scanned copy of a book.

I know many want to give WotC the benefit of the doubt, but doing so basically damns them with stupidity, falling into the same traps as many before them. But I don't think they are stupid - they must know the numbers, as surely they have watched the RIAA and MPAA dealt blow after blow in dealing with the problem of piracy. This leads me to hypothesize that piracy is nothing more than an excuse for a reorientation of online content to be sold/rented by WotC only. Indeed, moving to a monthly fee based online library scheme could be a great business move in the long run. It'll be interesting to watch. It's just sad they have to go about it with what appears to be large amounts of dishonesty.

Either that, or they deserve a award for stupidity and blindness to modern business realities in IP industries. But I'd guess not.


Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Frankly this whole thread is starting to depress me, and I wish it would just go away.

You know, you could just walk away from it. No one's holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read all this.

*notices guy with gun at Charles' head, muttering "keep reading or I'll blow your brains out, fool" over and over again*

Oh, I see. Carry on. Say hallo to Franky for me, and tell him to keep his gun clean.


Matthew Morris wrote:
Tarren Dei wrote:


My PHB disappeared. It's just gone. I suspect my son has it in his room but until I find evidence to that effect, I'm outraged!
Amusingly enough, I went to get a couple WoD books off my bookshelf this mornign before work and couldn't find them. I assume they're still packed up, but maybe WotC is going after non-D&D related material as well ;-)

The bear traps I put out for wizards corporate ninjas have been full lately, too.


David Fryer wrote:
I will admit that I have been blowing off some steam in this thread. Earlier in the week a very close friend of my wife got the phone call that they have been dreading for eighteen months.

That is awful. My condolences to you and everyone else affected by this.


pres man wrote:


Also I find it interesting that people have such a low view of the quality of Paizo's products that they assume that nobody would be interested in a pirated copy of it or that someone in a, perhaps misguided, attempt to let others see the quality would make pirated copies. If you think so poorly of Paizo, why are you here? As they say, imitiation is the highest form of flattery, and what is a better imitiation than a complete copy?

Read again: People suggest that piracy might be less because people care about Paizo more. I know I care more about Paizo and their way of doing things that I ever did for wizards.

Paizo makes me want to give them money, even if I could get the stuff for free. Plus, I AM getting the stuff for free. As a subscriber, I get free PDFs for all my PF books.


houstonderek wrote:
mearrin69 wrote:
I would be willing to bet that TSR/Wizards sold more 2nd edition PHBs than 1st...
Don't spend much time in Vegas, do you?

[tangent]

Vegas was a lot of fun - I need another week there. ^_^

[/tangent]

"The regular thread topic may now resume its meandering discourse... this is not the thread you are looking for, move along, move along..."


David Fryer wrote:


Edit:I think we all knew that he was dead, but nobody wanted to admit it because as long as we hadn't found him, we could keep on pretending that he just didn't want to get in touch with us.

Unless you know for sure, there's always uncertainty. You hear all kinds of weird stories - people losing their memory, people just being fed up with their current life and walking away - and you want to believe that it's true. Makes it hard to let go, unable to really grief.


wraithstrike wrote:
Nameless wrote:
How can they track illegal downloads? It seems like it would be incredibly difficult to get an accruate number.
They can't. Software companies that get pirated more than WoTC, and are better at technical issues can't do it, so I am sure WoTC can't. They can try to gauge an estimate, but so can I, however I would not bet money that my estimation, if I had one, or WotCs' "tracking" was even close to the real number, whatever it may be.

In this particular case, I strongly suspect that they didn't do much besides look at the 'Viewed: x times; Downloaded: x times' counter that Scribd provides... and multiply that number by the FactorThatOnlyWotCKnows :).

Scarab Sages

Ernest Mueller wrote:
I like that story too! How come all industry stories involving WotC start like the normal happy stories, but then start sounding like something from "Saw 12: The Spiked Strap-on?"

Did yoda8myhead write the screenplay for that?

I heard he got the idea from a page in 'The Book of Erotic Fantasy'.

Liberty's Edge

Snorter wrote:
Ernest Mueller wrote:
I like that story too! How come all industry stories involving WotC start like the normal happy stories, but then start sounding like something from "Saw 12: The Spiked Strap-on?"

Did yoda8myhead write the screenplay for that?

I heard he got the idea from a page in 'The Book of Erotic Fantasy'.

I love how the title is also a question! ;D


Disenchanter wrote:


Fair enough. I'd hazard a guess though, that you haven't observed the pirated book scans then. (Good on you, by the way.) It is fairly amazing what a group of people with plenty of free time can do with (legitimately) free tools.

I recently had to have a go with OCR tools at an old manual for one of our products - the English manual hasn't really been updated in ages (because there weren't that many international customers, especially not new ones who would need a whole manual - we did have update information), and somehow the files for it were lost. All we had were a couple of printouts from those old versions.

It worked quite well. Was a bit of work to be sure, but it did the job well enough. And that was some freeware or bundled-with-hardware version of some OCR tool.

I'm sure if someone gets some pro tool (and price isn't really an issue if you don't intend to pay, now is it?), and puts a bit of time and effort into it (and are prepared to destroy a book in the process), you can get something that won't make you want to pay money for the official version. Not from a quality standpoint, at least (but let's ignore the whole issue of honesty and so on).

David Fryer wrote:
Wicht wrote:
Tarren Dei wrote:
I've been thinking of changing my avatar but I'm waiting for Gary to put up one I like. I almost went for the Erastil one.
Yeah, you know you want to change your avatar. All the cool kids are doing it. :)
Am I cool now?

No, silly! That's a red dragon. They're not cool, they're blazing hot.


Vic Wertz wrote:

I like that story.

Me too! I like how they didn't confuse "exercising our rights" with "kicking customers in the privates".

Scarab Sages

Gorbacz wrote:

I shall make a desperate attempt to derail this discussion before little kittens get hurt.

I shall post a link to a picture of Unicorn Chaser:

UNICORN CHASER

Whoah!

When did Sebastian become a dad?

<hands out cigars>


wraithstrike wrote:

In case anyone cares here is an interview from the WoTC president. He is not saying a lot, and there are a few obvious lies to those that are not wearing blinders.

click me

That story, I don't like as much.

It tells us nothing except "we really like this online crap we keep hearing about" and "pirates are evil". That and some meaningless blather about "we didn't intend to inconvenience customers". If you didn't want to, then why did you do so, anyway?

There's nothing in it that explains how yanking the existing stuff will stop piracy.

I said it before and I'll say it again: wizards seems to think that their customers are deaf, dumb and blind, and will be fooled with a few honeyed words and insincere apologies.

And enworld wasn't really helpful in clearing things up. I know that If I had run the interview, I wouldn't have dropped the topic until I got an answer. And I'm pretty sure I woudln't have dropped the topic until I not only got an answer, but a satisfying one at that.

Bunch of weaselese.

Dark Archive

Snorter wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

I shall make a desperate attempt to derail this discussion before little kittens get hurt.

I shall post a link to a picture of Unicorn Chaser:

UNICORN CHASER

Whoah!

When did Sebastian become a dad?

<hands out cigars>

Speaking of, anyone seen him around lately?

Liberty's Edge

Jason Beardsley wrote:
Snorter wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

I shall make a desperate attempt to derail this discussion before little kittens get hurt.

I shall post a link to a picture of Unicorn Chaser:

UNICORN CHASER

Whoah!

When did Sebastian become a dad?

<hands out cigars>

Speaking of, anyone seen him around lately?

I see him in chat from time to time, last time maybe two days ago? He's alive and well and sacrificing small babies to the California Bar Association ;)


mearrin69 wrote:

Can't say I see anything enlightening in that interview...but I LOLed at "...and yes, we can track it" in the clarification. Mostly it was well-coached corporate double-talk, no real answers included.

M

I wonder if paizo can track that as well (and how you'd even do that), and if they'd arrive at similar numbers.

10:1? Sounds like more than just deadbeats who steal stuff they don't want to buy.

I for one would see that as a serious red flag that people may like the product, but not the company.

Scott Betts wrote:
The 10:1 illegal to legal PDF ratio is pretty startling. Over 90% of all copies of 4th Edition PDFs floating around now are not legitimate, even when legitimate copies were available for sale.

Putting aside their claim that they can get realistic numbers there: Imagine how bad it will become now that people who want PDFs are forced to either do without or steal the stuff.

pres man wrote:


I think it makes sense to have a period of time for people who have already bought their products to get their downloads

They didn't get that, either. What time they granted was not nearly enough. Especially if you're not operating in the same time zone. By the time many people got that message, it was already too late.

And it doesn't help those who don't sit in front of the PC all day long.

pres man wrote:


But a situation where they tracked down the (most egregious) pirating was coming from pdf sales. Once you decide the way to stop that is by stopping sales there isn't any logical reason to drag your feet or to give a long advertisement that you are doing it. Continuing to compare this situation to something like the GG pdf sales is just confusing the issue.

This might make sense if the underlaying reason would make any. It doesn't. Once the cat is out of the bag, it's over. All it takes is one guy with the PDF. Put it on usenet, and suddenly many, many people can download it. Some of them might then put it on the open P2P networks, and it's all done.

Does anybody really think that by yanking official sales, they have dealt a heavy blow to illegal distribution of existing books? It might hinder future releases (who will never get an official PDF in the first place), but they could have stopped those without pulling the current pdfs.

No, unless wizards is really, really stupid, they had ulterior motives for doing this and are just using the "evil pirates" as a scapegoat. It's not like stuff like this hasn't happened before.


Matthew Morris wrote:
Interview also says PDFS are DEAD

LONG LIVE PDFs! (goes and looks at his completely legal, completely free Pathfinder and Exalted PDFS).


Fartin' Martin wrote:

Hey, I just found a couple of copies of the Player's Handbook and a Monster Manual at the local library. That means I don't have to buy the books now that I can check them out...

Does this now mean that the Public Libraries are going to find themselves being sued?

The wotc corporate ninjas are probably preparing the incendiery bombs as we speak - well except those who stepped in to my anti wcn bear traps.

Paizo Employee CEO

Disenchanter wrote:
Lisa Stevens wrote:

For your edification, here is another interview with Greg Leeds on retailer website icV2. The most interesting part is where he says that theories that WotC is going to sell PDFs themselves are "incorrect." Makes me wonder whether they are going to sell the books through Kindle and Sony's e-reader, like their novels are being sold right now.

-Lisa

That's good speculation, but since the main DRM formats I can find for the Kindle and e-reader have already been cracked, I can't imagine they think this will prevent piracy.

You know that and I know that, but Amazon at least has been touting the security of the Kindle in regards to preventing piracy to the publishing industry. And the barrier to piracy IS higher, so that might be enough.

Vic mentioned to me that there was a company at a recent trade show who was touting a way to display PDFs on your screen and searching through them without the ability to copy text or download the file. This kind of tech could allow the PDFs to be shared via the DDI in a way that would make them almost as useful as the PDF version while again putting up a barrier to piracy. Of course, once your sub expired, so would your access...

-Lisa

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