1) WotC owns the right to the distribution of their PDFs.
Doesn't mean jack. They yanked them with hardly enough time for people to react, and that's awful customer service, and shows us that we cannot trust them.
We own the right to our money, and wizards will no longer see it. They brought it onto themselves.
a) Wizards of the Coast is not a villian.
They're certainly not a hero. They don't behave the part. They show a complete and utter disregard for anything but their own profit.
Paizo's different, and that means that they get my custom.
They're a company which produces a successful product, one which you all are so quick to forget is the basis for Paizo's pathfinder line
4e is not the basis for Paizo's PF line. D&D was, and they killed it. Paizo chose to keep the game we actually liked alive.
Plus, the WotC that made things like Pathfinder possible isn't the same as the wotc there is now: All the guys who supported open gaming have been fired long ago. Many are now here at Paizo.
The wizards there is now does its level best to eliminate open gaming.
I salute those people who went against the tide in their own company to create OGL, and will forever be thankful for them. But I won't confuse them with those who want to unmake it.
They chose to withdraw these PDFs not for evil, machievallian reasons but because they are tired of the documents getting pirated the day of a release.
Unless they're phenominally stupid, they know that their move has only encouraged piracy. The leak they had with the first 4e corebooks wasn't fans, it wasn't people taking their PDFs and distributing them, it was a printer distributing print master PDFs. This move won't stop things like that.
And yanking 1e PDFs won't stop 4e PDFs being leaked.
Piracy is used as the scapegoat here. A cheap cop-out.
Moreover, WotC is a company which does care about its customers. Anyone who says otherwise has never interacted with WotC.
I have interacted with them, and I say that they don't care for customers, unless they're drones who will defend them at all costs. Thinking customers aren't welcome.
However, directing that rage at WotC is misguided
B&#*&%@$. WotC made them take the stuff down within 24 hours. If they hadn't done that, if they had given people a realistic time frame in which to notice the problem and act, it would have gone differently. Wizards chose not to.
c) The people who lost downloads are the only real victims here.
So the rest of us should shut up? Let the public think that everything's alright so wotc's image isn't tarnished? Scratch that. People need to know what happens. People need to learn that you cannot trust wotc.
and even Paizo only gave its customers a day's notice.
Because they didn't get any earlier warnings themselves. So Paizo's to blame now that they can't predict the future?
Of course, there's one thing you can blame Paizo and RPGnow for: Trusting in Wizards to not be a bunch of dicks.
It will hopefully also be a lesson to these companies to actually write better contracts with their PDF suppliers, so that this sort of situation cannot recur.
As if wizards were known for agreeing to fair contracts. The adhesion contract that is the GSL is ample proof that they don't want to do fair business with others.
3) While it is fair to be annoyed that PDFs are no longer available for the time being, it is still possible to purchase the books yourself and scan them in manually
While this is true for current stuff, how does that help those who want the earlier stuff, maybe because they think 4e is the worst excuse for a roleplaying game ever produced? Where can they buy the old Planescape Boxed set?
And even for those books that are available. Really? That's your advise? Waste hours, and probably damage your book, in order to get a scan, which you will then have to put through OCR (which doesn't always work that well) if you want to take full advantage of the format?
The stone age called, they want their PDFs back.
And this from a company that claimed to go to the future when they yanked the licenses for Dragon and Dungeon and made them electronic only.
No, its not an excuse to pirate. There is no excuse for thievery.
In many cases, it's the only way people get, short of taking a month off and scouring the world for hard-to-find books, and paying through the teeth.
Not to mention those who aren't lucky enough to have a store nearby that has that stuff, or easy access to online shops.
This hyperbole is quite offensive. Pdfs... the Holocaust. Right....
Some people don't understand subtleness. You have to show them what happens if you use faulty thinking. And even though everyone should know just how bad the results of such faulty thinking can be, people don't think about it. They hear it on the history channel, adapt "nazi" as their favourite bad word, and do not learn the lesson.
I have no hope that those people learn the lesson with something as trivial to them as lost PDFs (since they're not affected themselves).
The hyperbole is offensive, but I must say that I find the attitude of "you're not affected, so you are wrong to care about how others are affected" to be much more offensive.
Exactly. It's this rampart egoism, and preaching of egoism, that sickens me. "Do not care about others, as long as you're okay, nothing bad is going on." Minorities are called that because they are. They're few in number. Does that mean that they're inconsequential? That they don't deserve sympathy?
I for one sympathise with those who lost something on wizards actions. And unless we don't show our outrage at this, wizards will do it again. Next time, the minority will be a bigger one.
3) While it is fair to be annoyed that PDFs are no longer available for the time being, it is still possible to purchase the books yourself and scan them in manually, if you want to use them as PDFs for some reason. Yes, its less convenient.That is possible for the 4e books and for most of the 3.x books. But for older books, that are long gone OOP that is either very expensive, or not possible at all.
This would be one of the main gripes.
Also, in music piracy I know there is a wide variety of people with different moral views to illegal downloading; many find it immoral for releases in print, but morally acceptable for releases out of print. Considering this, the idea of making more material OOP in order to fight piracy seems a bit counterproductive, no?And as a tangent...Oscar for Best Picture has meant Oscar for best spin machine for quite a while; Oscars which still have some credibility left include Best Screenplay and Supporting Actor/Actress...
Note that I have quite a few PDFs from Paizo. None of those were ever yanked. And I suspect that they will be there long after I have gone to dust.
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I will miss browsing the old files and deciding if I should add to my collection with a pdf or two. The game is something I love and care for a great deal.
But don't bring in the Holocaust, that is just plain ridiculous.
Right now I kind of feel blindsided by WOTC. Their decision came pretty much out of the blue for us in Europe and their customer service is therefore rubbish. We are treated badly.
As for Paizo, as a loyal customer, I can safely say that had Paizo read the future, they would have warned us that this could happen. That's the kind of service I trust.
I'm afraid TD, I think you are in a minority because this is a mistake that should have been handled much better.
However I'm glad that you and Scott took the time to post so that I could see the other sides better.
Cheers
The hyperbole is offensive, but I must say that I find the attitude of "you're not affected, so you are wrong to care about how others are affected" to be much more offensive.
This hyperbole is quite offensive. Pdfs... the Holocaust. Right....Some people don't understand subtleness. You have to show them what happens if you use faulty thinking. And even though everyone should know just how bad the results of such faulty thinking can be, people don't think about it. They hear it on the history channel, adapt "nazi" as their favourite bad word, and do not learn the lesson.
Well, exactly, that's why one should also avoid using the word in discussion as that automatically brings the level of conversation down. Respect Godwin's Law, even if in perfect world it wasn't needed.
Speak of the devil, and he will appear.
Look, folks. I know you think I'm some sort of boogeyman, but let's be honest here.
Just to get started. No, we don't think of you as a 'boogeyman'. Your giving your self to much credit. I think it is fair to say that most of us think you are a short-sighted troll at best. Treating you as a boogyman would imply we are in some way sacred of you. I don't think anyone is.
1) WotC owns the right to the distribution of their PDFs. They have the right to choose who can and cannot distribute their PDFs. If they decide no one can do so, so be it. You may not like it, but it is their decision, not yours, not Pazio's, not anyone else's.
I haven't seen a soul here argue that they do not have that right. No one has claimed that they have the right to stop WotC doing this. Equally, every one of us has the right to express our disappointment in WotC's choice of actions and that is all we are doing. And occasionally pointing and sniggering because frankly the choice was laughable.
2) The current situation was not ideal, but you all seem to lack empathy. You are not looking at it from other points of view.
Coming from you this is a laughable critism, considering that you tunnel vision with regards to paizo and its products are legendary.
a) Wizards of the Coast is not a villian. They're a company which produces a successful product, one which you all are so quick to forget is the basis for Paizo's pathfinder line, and really the success of Paizo in the first place, with their right to distribute some of their products, including Dungeon & Dragon magazines. They chose to withdraw these PDFs not for evil, machievallian reasons but because they are tired of the documents getting pirated the day of a release. Its when the PDFs come up on these sites when you see torrents of these files come up. They are guilty of miscommunication and misunderstanding, and perhaps of somewhat brash action - they decided to yank the PDFs, but immediately? Steve of DriveThruRPG claims that was the result of a miscommunication. Moreover, WotC is a company which does care about its customers. Anyone who says otherwise has never interacted with WotC. They do deal with customer service complaints, and they do care what people think, though not necessarily in the way that people generally think of it.
Your right, wizards of the coast is not a maniac cabal of super villians. But it goes out of its way to paint itself as one. It was Wizards though seriously bad marketing decisions created the edition war.
I very much doubt that PDF gate is an intentional 'screw every one over' move, but as ever, wizards are great at making it feel like one. Your right, wizards has created good products, such as the core rule books for 4E are fairly cool. They run one sort of game very well and i enjoy them. But they also make some very bad products Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide and the adventure modules for instance are just arn't that good in my experience. As a consumer I have no reason to purchase product lines experience tells are poor. Now customer loyalty might make me come back to a poor line or find out more about other bits in it to see if my early experience with the line are still valid. But wizards has not in the past behaved in a manner that would gain customer loyalty from me.While wizards has every right to act against piracy and i suspect ever company in the industry, and most players support them doing so. The issue is we are all dumb founded at how they choose to do it. White wolf, Steve Jackson, Paizo and RPGNow have all said effectively 'we don't get it' and so have the consumers. This choice doesn't stop piracy, it may well encourage it. Between the absense of legitimate sourse of PDFs and complete absence of legitimate sources for older products, many people are going to be forced to choose between legitimacy and piracy in a way they where never force to choose before. This approach merely hurts many companies revinue streams and puts
b) Paizo, DriveThruRPG, and the other PDF distribution companies aren't blameless victims here. They promised their customers the ability to download their documents again in the future, and did not make it clear to their consumers that this was not an inviolable guarantee; that if they were asked to pull down these documents, they would be removed, potentially on very short notice. They didn't make this clear enough, and people are, very understandably, upset. However, directing that rage at WotC is misguided; it wasn't WotC who told you you could redownload your PDFs several times in the indefinite future.
We understand this, however we don't get angry with them because they talk to us about it and do what they can to sooth the anger. They also share their confusion and disappointment, because they don't get the decision either.
c) The people who lost downloads are the only real victims here. They actually lost something. But quick as people are to blame WotC, its pretty clear that WotC wasn't the one who made them the promise that they could redownload their PDFs. Hopefully this well be a lesson to the consumer, that these companies do not own the rights to all the products they distribute and apparently lack contracts which prevent their PDFs from being yanked down immediately, given that's precisely what happened, and even Paizo only gave its customers a day's notice. It will hopefully also be a lesson to these companies to actually write better contracts with their PDF suppliers, so that this sort of situation cannot recur.
Anyone who legitimately purchases PDFs are a real victim because they will no longer be able to get legitimate PDFs for use. This is a format that is profoundly useful for many players and dungeon masters and they suffer as a result of the choice.
Anyone who is a legitimate outlet for PDFs is also a victim. They provide a service and recieve payment for it. This will cost them money.Anyone who collects out of print material for play, background material or nostalgia are victims because they can no longer purchase it in any form.
Wizards of the coasts are victims because they loose legitimate income from PDF sales and do not achieve their goal either.
Given your inablity to see this, i have to question who isn't really looking at the issues and lacks empathy here.
3) While it is fair to be annoyed that PDFs are no longer available for the time being, it is still possible to purchase the books yourself and scan them in manually, if you want to use them as PDFs for some reason. Yes, its less convenient. No, its not an excuse to pirate. There is no excuse for thievery.
My understanding is that what you are proposing is an offence under copyright law and is a form of copyright theft. Ofcause, it also doesn't help those people who collect out of print material. Currently their only means of doing so it peer to peer sharing. People who have no legitimate source are more likely to pirate.
I do try to help people. I understand many people don't understand my motives, and really despise me. Or simply that they don't want or need my help. That's fine. But maybe other people do. Maybe other people do value what I bring to the proceedings.
If you genuinely wish to help people, change the tone you post in, people might actually start listening to you if you do. Oh and lay of attacking the quality of paizo products. I don't care if you think that paizo is a 'leech' or that their is something wrong with providing support to people who prefer earlier editions. But their are a lot of us who genuinely choose paizo's campaign setting and adventures because we appreciate the style and quality. This includes people like Scott B and N'wah, who prefer wizards rules set. You don't like paizos material, fine, you can even express that, but please do so as opinion, not fact.
And, perhaps ironically, you do as well. If you didn't, you wouldn't have made someone tell me "Hey, they're talking about you on Paizo's forums". But you did, and you had a moderator actually warn you about discussing people from other message boards. Someone even mentions that they'd forgotten, which implies this isn't the first time this sort of thing has happened.
You got up cause you where slagging of products we like. We find you funny, that is the only reason you got mentioned.
It is really too bad that people do not try to look at things from the point of view of others, or to dissociate themselves from a situation before jumping to judgment. There would be far fewer problems in this world if they did.
Before you leap to blame the other, consider things from their perspective. It will help you better understand the situation, approach it more appropriately and, perhaps, allow you to see things you didn't see before.
That is true, and as a moderately talented jewish philosopher once said, remove the plank of wood from ones own eye, before trying to remove the speck of saw dust from some one elses.
QUICK! SOMEONE SHOOT IT!
This just sounds like a bat April Fools joke, but they're about 7 days late so.... :|
P.S. Ever Sense they pulled the s$&% they did with 4th ed being practically a different game, I knew they had no real sense of respect for the market. This just proves that even further. They are trying to eliminate all the older editions completely so that they can force people into the new edition by any means necessary. Something tells me that their sales are not doing too well and that they are getting desperate, and we, with luck, might see the product go for sale soon.
Oh smurf, Gorbacz got to comment of godwin's law before I could. In fairness through, we did take almost 16 pages before the count reached 1.
3) While it is fair to be annoyed that PDFs are no longer available for the time being, it is still possible to purchase the books yourself and scan them in manually, if you want to use them as PDFs for some reason. Yes, its less convenient. No, its not an excuse to pirate. There is no excuse for thievery.My understanding is that what you are proposing is an offence under copyright law and is a form of copyright theft.
I'm no lawyer, but as far as I know copyright, scanning and copying material you legally obtained, for your own use is allowed.
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This might be a bit lengthy
(You've been warned..)
1) I think the generalizations being made, thinly disguised as logical discourse, do discredit to both reasonable people and insult peoples' intelligence. I'm stating my opinion in this post and I think others are doing the same. I don't know the intimate details of what's going on behind WoTC's doors. I don't know that anyone else does, either. I think we're looking at a discussion of opinions, nothing more.
2) Calling the gaming community sad and suggesting it should self-analyze may be productive for some, but I think it's also a bit condesending. It seems to suggest that a few of us are "well put together" and that the majority fits the social stereotype of "weirdo" or "gamer-loser." Some gamers may be acting a shade more passionately than others, but in the most, they're all doing the same thing ...voicing their support (or displeasure) about a decision that did affect them.
3) The loss of availability to legally purchase a product affects everyone. I may not have had active downloads effected, but I wanted to pick up some of the Planescape stuff. I live in Kuwait. I don't have a local game store. I didn't have time to go online and download like mad.
Even if I did, there is nothing suggesting I might not have wanted to do this in the future. Certainly, I know I fit into this equation.
I think it's safe to assume a majority of the posters also fit into this equation. I'm sure they'll correct me if they feel they don't.
4) I don't think anyone here is actively opposed to 4e. In fact, I think most people would be pleased to see new fans exploring RPGS, even if they are games they don't actively play. I certainly can't speak for anyone else, but I think I'd rather sit back and play some 4e with friends (even if I don't like the game's mechanics as much as I like, say, 3.5 or Pathfinder) than any old MMORPG. Thus, I think fans are interested in seeing the hobby spread, regardless of gaming model or platform. So, directing this at 4e is unreasonable, silly at best.
5) I think the general outrage directed at 4e is based on the direction WoTC took when they changed a game beloved by many of the posters here. However, I'm sure said posters realize that D&D is WoTC intellectual property and fully within their right to change. They can respect that right and still not like it. It shouldn't come as a surprise if they become stronger supporters of PFRPG and Paizo.
6) I can't argue the logic of WoTC's decision to halt all .pdf sales anymore than anyone else can, given the truth of the matter isn't known. We're relying on press releases that don't seem to parallel the effect they'll actually have. The general outcry here seems to be, "Hey, this isn't going to work and you know it. So, just be honest with us." People, in my experience, don't enjoying being duped (unless they're at the circus or a magic show), especially when it involves their money or a favored hobby. Again, it's not surprising people are going to be passionate about this. That doesn't demand "self-evaluation."
7) Suggesting people shouldn't voice their opinions in a venue designed for such is silly. I agree that a somewhat dispassionate stance is be preferable to a immature, irrational one, but this isn't a academic debate where all the facts are known. This is a message board where people can chat, be passionate, or act silly. We generally try to adhere to a fairly civil code, out of respect for others. Not everyone is so good at following directions.
8) Suggesting anyone that argues against WoTC's recent decision is a pirate is silly and illogical, at best. That's like saying anyone that participated in the Boston Tea Party did so only because they liked destroying tea.
9) I don't think WoTC is some gigantic, evil corporation (even if they choose an Elder Brain as their mascot) intent on ruining all games and ruthlessly destroying all their competitors. I think, instead, they've realized that their successive business decisions have hurt them, perhaps not financially (I have no way of knowing that), but certainly their reputation. I think the reaction to "circle the wagons" is natural. This is a part of that process.
They need to keep their game alive or, as stated above, it will fail. This means constantly reinventing it and controlling their IP as best possible. They are not only entitled to do that, but expected to. The manner in doing so, however, may continue to push people away. Such is the nature of business. This is the reason companies have PR people. I trust WoTC understand that how their consumer base perceives them directly effects sales. Or maybe they don't, I don't know.
10) Finally, suggesting that someone shouldn't state their opinion because someone, working at WoTC, may read this and be hurt is counter-productive at best, condescending at worst. I trust that WoTC's employees have enough intelligence, maturity, and emotional fortitude to separate the difference between "nerd rage" from actual attacks on their character. I think most of us understand that the decisions of WoTC are not the collective decisions of every, single, employee.
Well, at least that's my $.02
Fair use is a mine field to be honest.
I like chocolate milk!
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Scott,
To quote the late Tony Snow, "Thank you Helen, for the Hezbolla point of view."
WotC's official interviews aren't helping them. From your link "What we did is we terminated our contracts. When we terminated the contracts, the files come down. [Emphasis mine] The reason? The severe increase of piracy of the products."
So now Drive Thru and Paizo are supposed to understand an implied lag time that was not mentioned in the original cease and desist?
And I love this:
"We didn't do this lightly, and we understand our fans enjoy that format. Most of the fans who have legally purchased PDFs are also customers who have the physical product. Until we have another digital solution, I think our fans at least are not being deprived of the product, [Emphasis mine] and I think that's really important, that they have the product that they know and love."
so anyone who was deprived (for whatever reason) of their legal PDFs was not a 'fan' and they aren't 'important'.
Also, as was pointed out on ENWorld in the document thread "We're pulling the documents to stop piracy, sicne we have a method of finding who uploaded the pirate copy." Huh?
Also is the microwatermark Drive Thru's security tech? If so then Wizards just leaked another company's security system. Way to go, guys.
Edit: Edited for HTML formatting
Doesn't mean jack.
1) WotC owns the right to the distribution of their PDFs.
Quite. Nobody is disputing the legal right of WotC to do this. They are saying that it's horrible customer service and an epic PR failure, apparently fueled by utter idiocy (the misguided belief that pulling all legal PDF buying options off the market will somehow *reduce* piracy).
To paraphrase someone:
You have a legal right to cheat on your girlfriend. Just don't be surprised when she dumps you after that.
Crap!!!!
And I was just thinking about finally getting around to downloading my Pathfinder PDF's!
Damn you procrastination! And damn you WOTC!
If only I'd checked my email yesterday. SOB
Huh, the part that I find interesting is that not too long after someone jokingly accuses Scott Betts of being Titanium Dragon, Titanium Dragon shows up and Scott Betts disappears...
Clark? Superman? not in the same place at the same time?
or maybe Normal Osborne / Green Goblin would be more apt? :P
Crap!!!!
And I was just thinking about finally getting around to downloading my Pathfinder PDF's!
Damn you procrastination! And damn you WOTC!
If only I'd checked my email yesterday. SOB
Dude. Pathfinder has nothing to do with WotC. Paizo has no intention of taking away the pdf rights for Pathfinder.
This affects only digital products from TSR, and from WotC.
Huh, the part that I find interesting is that not too long after someone jokingly accuses Scott Betts of being Titanium Dragon, Titanium Dragon shows up and Scott Betts disappears...
Clark? Superman? not in the same place at the same time?
or maybe Normal Osborne / Green Goblin would be more apt? :P
By that logic, I could be Sebastian.
I have braces.
By that logic, I could be Sebastian.Huh, the part that I find interesting is that not too long after someone jokingly accuses Scott Betts of being Titanium Dragon, Titanium Dragon shows up and Scott Betts disappears...
Clark? Superman? not in the same place at the same time?
or maybe Normal Osborne / Green Goblin would be more apt? :P
AH-HA!!! I KNEW IT!!!!
Hopefully, Titanium Dragon dropping in on this thread will be a strong reminder to heed Gary's rule about talking about other message boards. :)
If anyone over reacted it is WotC.
And apparently the pdf sellers. Even assuming that the pdf sellers reaction was understandable because they feared legal action from WotC, as a customer that doesn't exactly endear me to them. As a customer I may have stood by them through good and bad times, but apparently some of them are not invested in watching out for my interests in return. So while their react is understandable it gets no points. If in turn they had said they were going to stop selling the products but were giving those who had purchased them a reasonable amount of time to download them and/or refunding those that couldn't (perhaps they are deployed overseas for example), that would be deserving of points in their favor.
Let's not be confused I am not defending WotC decision. It appears pretty bonehead. I just am not going to ignore the pdf sellers as well. They are not innocent in this, even if their part in the situation is just because of their and their customers' ignorance/naiviety. I don't drink the kool-aid no matter what the flavor is.
WotC is the only one to blame, WotC alone and no one else. They ordered the PDFs to be canceled, and their destributors complied - they had to. The destributors never *to guaranteed* or *promised* to make a download available forever, it was just the practise that you could go to Paizo (I cannot speak for the other ones) and redownload a PDfs you have purchased. As soon as the PDFs were gone, the facility to download again naturally was also gone.
So wait. There was never any guarante given that you would be able to download the material indefinitely and so the producer of the product is to blame for the material not being able to be downloaded indefinitely? Sorry that doesn't compute.
It would seem that WotC isn't the only one to blame. The people that didn't back up their files are also to blame. In today's day and age, not knowing to back up valuable material is not excused. Maybe if it was 80's this point of view would be remotely relevant. The customers screwed themselves because they assumed something that wasn't true.
Does anybody remember what I said about the psycho break-up scenario? Because that has now personally manifested itself on the boards. You can't reason me, or others, back into the Wotci fold. We're done. We don't need to justify our feelings, our reasons, or our buying habits to you. You are not a moral or a rational standard that we need to meet. You're intrusiveness, condescension, etc doesn't "woo" anyone with your rationality. Instead, it creates the kind of outrage that you want so you can feel morally superior to those you've set yourselves up as judges over.
Gamer Girrl had it right, and so did Taig. I've learned my lesson. Oh, and that lesson isn't don't encourage others to withhold business form a certain company. Nope. Free country, free market. Vote with your $, people. But I don't do that on Wizards' boards. That some people don't like my freedom to do as I please and not justify it to them only increases my pleasure in doing so, I hope it increases yours. Recognize what we've got going in these provocations: Wearing Rational clothing does not make the beast beneath Rational.
No consumer should have to go through this.Go through...what, exactly? It's not like you're being exposed to something offensive. At worst, you simply had one avenue of purchasing products suspended, if you cared.
You don't think you're being more than a little over-dramatic, here?
I can see stopping sales of 4e PDFs while they're still selling physical copies. However, the decision to pull all legal PDF access to TSR/WotC material, including out of print material all but impossible to find in any other format (like 1st Ed AD&D stuff, BECMI D&D, etc.) on extremely short notice without any sort of real PR is a boneheaded move. The lack of any other legal means (existing or announced) to sell the material simultaneously cuts off a revenue stream for WotC and is like a slap to the customer base who was legally purchasing said material, which makes it a boneheaded business decision as well.
Titanium Dragon wrote:
" Hopefully this well be a lesson to the consumer, that these companies do not own the rights to all the products they distribute and apparently lack contracts which prevent their PDFs from being yanked down immediately, given that's precisely what happened, and even Paizo only gave its customers a day's notice. It will hopefully also be a lesson to these companies to actually write better contracts with their PDF suppliers, so that this sort of situation cannot recur."
The ole our lawyers are better than your lawyer defense because we wrote a sneaky escape clause. What is really sad from the above statement is that WoWC apparently had this intent when they initially presented the contracts to the PDF suppliers.
I like chocolate milk!
Me too!
Sadly, I left my computer for 2 days and my ability to purchase some of the old edition downloads I can't afford in Print... this reeks. I emailed the WOTC person they listed at the top of the "halting" press release. I asked when they are planning on letting the old edition stuff become available again, and listed a few products I was going to purchase. I hope this all ends soon, as I am both offended and disgusted at the move.
/d
I like chocolate milk!Me too!
What!!??
Don't you guys know your encouraging love of chocolate milk and hatred of soy milk puts the Soy Over-Lo...ur, I mean, the poor soybean farmers out of work? It is immoral and irrational to hate soy milk and criticize the benevolent Soy Over-Lord who cares for those poor bean farmers with his Soy First policies.[Easter Egg for you Spanish Speakers]
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People, Titanium Dragon may or may not have been rude on another forum (I don’t know, I wasn’t there), but he’s presenting his argument fairly civilly here. Disagree with it, sure; I do. But remember to keep it civil. Let’s not lower ourselves to whatever standards may (or may not) have been set elsewhere.
Also, can we make a general rule? From now on, no one can tell anyone else what they do or do not have a right to feel. If you’re angry, upset or even happy about what has happened, that’s fine. I don’t have to have lost downloads or be a pirate, Wotsy doesn’t have to be in the legal wrong, I don’t have to be a 3.5 fan or a 4e fan or a Paizo fan or whatever to be upset that I can now no longer buy those Planescape or Alternity PDFs I’ve been meaning to get around to buying.
Crap!!!!
And I was just thinking about finally getting around to downloading my Pathfinder PDF's!
Damn you procrastination! And damn you WOTC!
If only I'd checked my email yesterday. SOB
You can still get Pathfinder stuff. It's not from wizards. It's from Paizo. Everything about Pathfinder is Paizo, except for the OGL parts. And they are free, for everyone, forever. wizards can't take them away (even though they really, really want to).
In fact, all Pathfinder PDFs are 35% off this month!
And apparently the pdf sellers.
Or overgeneralising there.
Even assuming that the pdf sellers reaction was understandable because they feared legal action from WotC, as a customer that doesn't exactly endear me to them. As a customer I may have stood by them through good and bad times, but apparently some of them are not invested in watching out for my interests in return. So while their react is understandable it gets no points. If in turn they had said they were going to stop selling the products but were giving those who had purchased them a reasonable amount of time to download them and/or refunding those that couldn't (perhaps they are deployed overseas for example), that would be deserving of points in their favor.
They're supposed to break the law because of you? Yeah right.
Drivethrough/RPGnow already apologised that they took stuff off their site too early, and Paizo was able to negotiate a stay of execution for bought stuff for another 12 hours. They did all they could. They were forbidden by wizards to keep the stuff up for longer than that.
I'm sure they did what they could to soften the blow, but what help is that if wizards is intent on screwing fans, and has the legal right to do so?
So wait. There was never any guarante given that you would be able to download the material indefinitely and so the producer of the product is to blame for the material not being able to be downloaded indefinitely?
Well, who gave the order, backed up by law, to take the stuff off? Who insisted on downloads people already purchased be taken down as well. And not just the stuff they are pretending to protect from piracy with this, but everything, ever made.
A company that is intent on customer satisfaction and a good image, not just more mones, wouldn't have done that.
And it won't protect those products already in circulation from piracy. Not. a. bit.
It would seem that WotC isn't the only one to blame. The people that didn't back up their files are also to blame. In today's day and age, not knowing to back up valuable material is not excused. Maybe if it was 80's this point of view would be remotely relevant. The customers screwed themselves because they assumed something that wasn't true.
Yeah, and that guy over there doesn't have a spare key to his house, so it's his fault really that I stole his key and threw it in the ocean.
Right.
I do agree on some level: People are to blame if they thought wizards would be nice about it, instead of trying to become the greatest pricks in the industry.
You hear stories about white wolf and palladium. They're nothing compared to wizards. Seems they have succeeded.
I'm sure, though, that they won't do their best to extend their lead.
I like chocolate milk!Me too!What!!??
Don't you guys know your encouraging love of chocolate milk and hatred of soy milk puts the Soy Over-Lo...ur, I mean, the poor soybean farmers out of work? It is immoral and irrational to hate soy milk and criticize the benevolent Soy Over-Lord who cares for those poor bean farmers with his Soy First policies.[Easter Egg for you Spanish Speakers]
What? Where do you get off telling me that i hate soymilk, leafy! lol.. I don't dislike soymilk at all, actually :P
I just like Chocolate milk better! :)
Can I have some fishy crackers?
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I like chocolate milk!Me too!What!!??
Don't you guys know your encouraging love of chocolate milk and hatred of soy milk puts the Soy Over-Lo...ur, I mean, the poor soybean farmers out of work? It is immoral and irrational to hate soy milk and criticize the benevolent Soy Over-Lord who cares for those poor bean farmers with his Soy First policies.[Easter Egg for you Spanish Speakers]
Cute ;0)
Who wants the flamethrower?
Not me.
There's not one thing I can say here that has not already been said. I've just posted so I can be number 800. But WOC really did shoot themselves in the foot with this one.
Or overgeneralising there.
Yes, SOME over-reacted. There feel better about yourself now.
They're supposed to break the law because of you? Yeah right.
Oh, no you are right, they are not "suppose" to risk their neck on my behalf. Of course, that doesn't mean I should particularly grateful for them either. I'm not going to kiss their collective asses because they watched out for their own. And as I pointed out, they had other options as well, they could have given refunds to those customers that lost out (probably not a full refund as most were probably responsible and backed up their products). Did see that happening, please post links to companies that did put their customers first in that fashion. And please for the love of god do not try to pass off links to people that put discounts on pdfs as a substitute, not the same thing at all. In one situation they are taking money out of their own pocket, in the other they are enticing you to give them less of your money they you might other wise have (but may not have even bothered with).
Drivethrough/RPGnow already apologised that they took stuff off their site too early,
So though my statement above was an overgeneralization, it wasn't entirely untrue. Thank you.
and Paizo was able to negotiate a stay of execution for bought stuff for another 12 hours. They did all they could. They were forbidden by wizards to keep the stuff up for longer than that.
Are you 100% certain of that, or is that a desire to believe the best in Paizo that leads you to it?
I'm sure they did what they could to soften the blow, but what help is that if wizards is intent on screwing fans, and has the legal right to do so?
They had other options as well, I pointed out one above. Give customers a (partial) refund. Anybody offer to do that? Sorry, not bending over to kiss asses yet for people covering their own.
Yeah, and that guy over there doesn't have a spare key to his house, so it's his fault really that I stole his key and threw it in the ocean.
No, it is not his fault that you stole his key. It is his fault that his stupid, non-planning ahead ass can't get into his own house. "Key's never get lost, that is never going to happen at all and so I should never plan for that possiblity" type of thinking is never going to get any respect from me. Maybe that type of thinking is respect by others, I can't say.
Whats the big deal about 800?
So wait. There was never any guarante given that you would be able to download the material indefinitely and so the producer of the product is to blame for the material not being able to be downloaded indefinitely? Sorry that doesn't compute.
I've wanted to comment on this for a little while, so I'll just use pres man's post here to bring it up.
Except for the people at Paizo, DriveThru, Wizards etc. none of us are privy to the actual contracts concerning the distribution of pdfs. However, I can see 3 scenarios that can explain the "indefinite download" practice (one of which doesn't exactly bode well for WotC).1. The rights to give people "indefinite," or at least a reasonable number of, downloads of each product they purchase was written in the contract between WotC and the distributors. Maybe with a clause saying that they could still terminate the whole line (with such a clause, the distributors made an error in not communicating this to the customers, without this last clause, the distributors might actually have a case for suing WotC for breach of contract).
2. There was no such thing written in the contract, yet it has been standard practice since the beginning and WotC has had ample time to rectify the contract if they didn't approve of this. If they haven't done so after a certain time (something about not protecting your own trademarks etc.) then they have given silent consent to the practice and the distributors are not to blame.
3. WotC didn't (officially) "know" about this practice, thus a lot of people from their sales department haven't really been doing their jobs and should be given a nice pink slip.
Yeah, and that guy over there doesn't have a spare key to his house, so it's his fault really that I stole his key and threw it in the ocean.No, it is not his fault that you stole his key. It is his fault that his stupid, non-planning ahead ass can't get into his own house. "Key's never get lost, that is never going to happen at all and so I should never plan for that possiblity" type of thinking is never going to get any respect from me. Maybe that type of thinking is respect by others, I can't say.
The big difference here is that even back-ups can be lost, burned, stolen etc.
You might argue then that so can actual books and you can't just go into the store and demand a new book.In this case, however, you COULD actually get that lost book/pdf back by re-downloading it. Not anymore, though (legally).
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Just to be clear on my own personal opinion on this subject:
I'm not angry at WOTC. I'm disappointed. They just could have handled this better. Their decision, from a consumer perspective, seems to have come out of the blue and for nebulous reasons.
I don't play 4e; never tried it and don't have any intention to. I play 3.5e, in the Pathfinder sense. I used to be a FR fan, but as FR got more and more crowded, I became somewhat disenfranchised with it. Golarion is a breath of fresh air.
I don't buy 4e PDFs (not into 4e). I don't buy 3.5e PDFs (I have the books I want and that's enough). But I have bought a fair amount of ODD, 1e, & 2e. Partly out of nostalgia (the Basic Red Box was the first RPG I ever played) and partly because I'm kicking around the idea of running an old school mini-campaign. Ceasing PDF sales means I won't be able to continue building my collection (I was looking forward to getting some of the 2e Complete books and the Dark Sun setting). That's what disappoints me.
Now, I personally see no reason for Wizards to pull OOP PDF sales, especially IF their assertion that pirated copies of 4ePHB2 is what is driving this decision. If that is the case, this decision smacks of reactionary "Shut. Down. Everything!" thinking. If not, then there's some other factors involved and they aren't being honest with me about the reasons (not that they owe me an explanation, but it would probably clear up 90% of the problems they're having with the customer base right now).
Maybe the shut down is temporary and Paizo will have PDFs back up in a few weeks or months. Possibly WOTC is planning to offer PDFs exclusively through their own store. What I really hope isn't the case is some situation where OOP PDFs are only offered through an ongoing DDI subscription. That truly would tick me off and I simply won't play that game (pun intended).
-Skeld
Maybe the shut down is temporary and Paizo will have PDFs back up in a few weeks or months. Possibly WOTC is planning to offer PDFs exclusively through their own store. What I really hope isn't the case is some situation where OOP PDFs are only offered through an ongoing DDI subscription. That truly would tick me off and I simply won't play that game (pun intended).
-Skeld
Maybe. Maybe.
But some of the quotes from WotC officers have me worried.
The "we're looking into providing this content in a format that prevents piracy" (paraphrased, and emphasis mine) makes me wonder if we will ever see PDFs again.
Just to cut off some conjecture, I'm well aware that is WotC's right - and I understand their fear of PDFs. (They are security nightmares after all.)