WotC halts PDF sales


Website Feedback

951 to 1,000 of 1,655 << first < prev | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | next > last >>
Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

David Fryer wrote:
Reckless wrote:

And, in case it matters to those Marvel fans out there, it also includes the website that had all the oop Marvel Super Hero game pdfs available for free with permission from WOTC [http://www.classicmarvel.com./] It's gone.

Perfectly within their rights, of course. Just sucky, as with the rest.

Which have nothing to do with pirating 4E, which blows a big hole into their defenses.

"We had to have those pulled, they were eating into our profits, bloody pirates!"

"But they weren't pirated, they had your OK."

"But we couldn't make a profit!"

"They they your OK to post them, to DL for free."

"Bloody Pirates!"

Dark Archive

Scott Betts wrote:


David Fryer wrote:
It's just like making laws, they only alter the behavior of those who are already law abiding.

This is patently false, and is something I can disagree with on academic grounds. My area of study includes looking at the effects of lawmaking on criminal behavior. Some laws do cause changes in criminal behavior. Some laws don't cause any such changes. But there is no absolute in this sense.

Having been a law enforcement officer, and now working a teacher in a program with children in court ordered detention programs, I would have to say that my real world observations are somewhat at odds with what you have observed academically. Making a law or, in the case of the program I currently work in, a rule has no effect on negative behavior. Enforcement of that law or rule does. Therefore, if the only step that Wizards takes is to pull the legally avalible pdfs and push a few token prosecutions, it will not do anything to stop piracy. This is esspecially true since it is common knowledge that the first three core books were leaked from an internal source somewhere in the production chain.


Scott Betts wrote:

You're right, I should have phrased it more clearly.

What I meant was that how much longer this pattern of piracy continues is up in the air. Yes, currently released products are not suddenly going to disappear from p2p networks. It would be ludicrous to think otherwise. But removing those primarily responsible for this pirate activity in the first place will a) give some serious pause to others who are thinking about putting themselves at risk of prosecution by providing pirated PDFs, and b) remove a number of the individuals who care enough to do the work required to share these PDFs anonymously. There are not terribly many people out there who are willing to take on that responsibility. We're not talking about the latest movies...

I think that this is a wrong assumption. Why would we assume that the only people to pirate something are those looking to directly use that material?


Patrick Curtin wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:


I see. Since we're talking spouses and roleplaying game systems, how would you describe

World of Darkness (any version, or any game using it)

That's the spouse that has a theater degree and is always nudging you to either go to a local theater production, or they want to act in a local theater production. Oh, and they are having an affair with the director of said production.

Why does this sound familiar...? I think something like this happened to a friend of mine upstate a few years back with his g/f.


Freehold DM wrote:

Why does this sound familiar...? I think something like this happened to a friend of mine upstate a few years back with his g/f.

You know someone who dated WoD?

I know a lot of people are in love with their hobbies, but come on! :D

Sovereign Court

KaeYoss wrote:

This will not be talked away this easily. wizards is showing disregard towards customers, and has done so repeatedly in the past, and we won't let it go uncommented.

SO SAY WE ALL!

And, Mr. Betts, do not feel emboldened by Erik's compliment. Just because that your posting style is more tollerable, as an example provided to an unenlightened a troll, does not earn you the right to ask others to be silent. nor make you the wotc negotiator here, nor should we accept that you wish us to take this elsewhere.

I am old enough to know first-hand the lengthy debates and carefully weighed decisions that major companies make. And, KaeYoss is absolutely right that this will not, and must not be talked away easily. When a "by product" or side-consequence of a decision made by the so-called owners of a product result in the absolute disappearance of 30+ years of historical game material and documentation - that company must head back into the board room and make it right! Not in a week, not in a year, not with lofty promises of fixing-it or misleading statements at a Gen Con in August.

This act, like so many others of late, is offensive to this community. We will not be silent, we will not step aside. This is unacceptable.


It seems to me that one thing is clear from this current case, which is that with the sudden withdrawal of the PDFs and the accompanying confusion that apparently resulted at at least two internet sites due to this, Wizards of the Coast have damaged the trust of some customers of their D&D line.
It also seems to me that if the PDF withdrawal had occured with warnings several days in advance, and details of what was going on hammered out with those companies legally retailing PDFs who would be required to remove them, then damage to trust might have been considerably reduced.


Scott Betts wrote:
While I can certainly understand that, those aware of this can just take a rational view of the situation: what we're seeing is simply the result of the corporate structure inherent in Hasbro. It doesn't affect the quality of WotC's games, since they're still completely in control of their own development, and deciding to boycott WotC over this ultimately accomplishes nothing but harming the guys putting out a solid product, who are actually part of the D&D fanbase. I bet the WotC guys aren't any happier than most of you that the PDFs had to get pulled.

I hear this all the time, how the people producing 4e are part of the D&D fan base. Well if they were why is the game they have created so unlike any D&D game ever? They maybe fans of MMOs, certainly seem to have many of the concepts down. They maybe fans of other PnP games, maybe even Fantasy PnP games. But they have done nothing to show or prove they are or ever where fans of D&D.

And you can call 4e a solid product, others call it a worthless one. I would call it an ok to fair game not a really good one, but playable. I would not however call it D&D in any form. Nor do I like that it use the reputation of D&D to create sales of a product I see as inferior to any previous edition. Long term it only hurts the D&D repuation and trademark.

Boycotting WoTC is a reasonable response to this. Either enough will do so to make a difference and come to the notice of those who do care about D&D (assuming there are any) at WoTC and then they can document the reaction and response of the community that does like D&D and show how the decsion hurt the bottom line to Hasbro, or someone who watched the bottom line but cares nothing for the game might notice the change, put two and two together and bring it up if for no other reason then to help the bottom line.

In the end to WoTC and Hasbro money is all they care about, at least all their stock holders do, and when you hit them in the purse they might take notice and change their ways. It is the only effect you can have on them that they may really care about. Posting on their boards might effect those who watch them, but it wont have the dramitic effect on the big dogs like a loss of income will.


My main complaint is that there was no plan in place for how to handle this (at least as far as I can tell).

First, there was no communication. There was no message on the front page of their site. There was no e-mail sent out to their customers (at least as far as I know). There was no message or sticky post on their forums when the announcement was made. There was no communication about this until after they had made the request to have the products pulled and they still haven't put anything on their site in regards to it. If I were them, I wouldn't want my customers to find out from the distributors that I was pulling products and not from me.

Second, if I were pulling my products from distribution, I would want to make sure that there was no miss-communication on time-lines and expectations with my distributors. I would have provided very clear guidelines, time lines, and reasons to the distributors for the removal of the products; specifying how long they can continue to be sold, how long they can remain available for download, and a brief reason why in order to mitigate any miss-communication. I would want them to know that my relationship with them is important and to show that I understand that as retailers of my products they are likely to take some heat for my decision and I want to make sure they are not left hanging.

As far as I can tell the only plan they had was to pull the material as fast as possible and then to not talk about it.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I just wanted to pop in and compliment just about everyone posting in this thread for keeping things civil. The debate is heated, of course, but I'm impressed, even by Paizo standards.

goes back to lurking


Pax Veritas wrote:
KaeYoss wrote:

This will not be talked away this easily. wizards is showing disregard towards customers, and has done so repeatedly in the past, and we won't let it go uncommented.

SO SAY WE ALL!

And, Mr. Betts, do not feel emboldened by Erik's compliment. Just because that your posting style is more tollerable, as an example provided to an unenlightened a troll, does not earn you the right to ask others to be silent. nor make you the wotc negotiator here, nor should we accept that you wish us to take this elsewhere.

I am old enough to know first-hand the lengthy debates and carefully weighed decisions that major companies make. And, KaeYoss is absolutely right that this will not, and must not be talked away easily. When a "by product" or side-consequence of a decision made by the so-called owners of a product result in the absolute disappearance of 30+ years of historical game material and documentation - that company must head back into the board room and make it right! Not in a week, not in a year, not with lofty promises of fixing-it or misleading statements at a Gen Con in August.

This act, like so many others of late, is offensive to this community. We will not be silent, we will not step aside. This is unacceptable.

Pax:

I have just been upstairs to check my bookcase, and I assure you that my Forgotten Realms boxed sets are still sitting exactly where I placed them. As are is my copy of Dragon Mountain, my Planescape boxed sets, and my 2nd edition AD&D Night Below. They have not mysteriously disappeared, and I suspect that the discount Maztica boxed set sitting in the window of a second hand bookshop in the city centre will still be there too, (unless someone has bought it since I last went past).
What I take it that you refer to as 'historical game material' has not suddenly vanished. Public access to internet copies, which Hasbro/WotC had offered for a fee may have been withdrawn (sort of like a public library/archive being closed?), but the actual dead-tree versions are still there if you own them, or have friends who own them.

Edit:
Although with the public library/archive analogy, you do at least get to vote out officials who shut one down, come the next election; then again, such officials are supposed to be there to serve the public, whereas corporations such as Hasbro are supposed to serve their shareholders first and foremost....


Scott Betts wrote:
While I can certainly understand that, those aware of this can just take a rational view of the situation: what we're seeing is simply the result of the corporate structure inherent in Hasbro. It doesn't affect the quality of WotC's games, since they're still completely in control of their own development, and deciding to boycott WotC over this ultimately accomplishes nothing but harming the guys putting out a solid product, who are actually part of the D&D fanbase. I bet the WotC guys aren't any happier than most of you that the PDFs had to get pulled.

First, strictly speaking as a customer, the feelings and concerns of the corporation and those in it are irrelevant to me. All that I am concerned with is a product which is not being provided. What is my incentive to be loyal? What are they actively doing to maintain my loyalty and preference for their brand? Why should I buy their product and not someone else's when there are plenty of alternatives on the market, many of them for free?

Second, just because you are a corporation doesn't mean that I excuse you for poor communication and not dealing directly with me, the customer, especially in this day and age when you have a public website where I can go to get information on your product, web forums where I can discuss your product and industry websites and magazines where your product is discussed.

Third, how can you argue that corporate structure is a realistic indication of how the result of their decision? Obviously they have a legal department. What about a public relations or communications department? What about a customer service department? If the decision to pull the products was made by the legal department why was public relations, customer service, and the team who handles the website not immediately brought in to discuss how to handle the decision? As far as I can tell, based off of their current corporate structure, there is no reason for them to have handled this they way they have other than legal making and communicating a decision. To me, that doesn't speak of effective leadership.

I apologize if I am being harsh or insulting but as someone who has worked in retail and sales for many years and as an economics major, I see no reason to make excuses for corporations.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Charles Evans 25 wrote:

I have just been upstairs to check my bookcase, and I assure you that my Forgotten Realms boxed sets are still sitting exactly where I placed them. As are is my copy of Dragon Mountain, my Planescape boxed sets, and my 2nd edition AD&D Night Below. They have not mysteriously disappeared, and I suspect that the discount Maztica boxed set sitting in the window of a second hand bookshop in the city centre will still be there too, (unless someone has bought it since I last went past).

What I take it that you refer to as 'historical game material' has not suddenly vanished. Public access to internet copies, which Hasbro/WotC had offered for a fee may have been withdrawn (sort of like a public...

My PHB disappeared. It's just gone. I suspect my son has it in his room but until I find evidence to that effect, I'm outraged!


Of course it's fine to have fun with Pax's post, in the right kind of spirit, but I take it that you get his point.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Tarren Dei wrote:
My PHB disappeared. It's just gone. I suspect my son has it in his room but until I find evidence to that effect, I'm outraged!

He's studying for miniSpuerstar. Let him have it.

Also, change your icon because I keep thinking you're Betts, and given the differing tones and natures of your posts, it's really throwing me off.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
Of course it's fine to have fun with Pax's post, in the right kind of spirit, but I take it that you get his point.

I do. There's nothing that annoys me more than posters telling other posters not to post. Unless they are breaking the forum rules, I enjoy an open discussion with opposing viewpoints.

Dark Archive

Tarren Dei wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:

I have just been upstairs to check my bookcase, and I assure you that my Forgotten Realms boxed sets are still sitting exactly where I placed them. As are is my copy of Dragon Mountain, my Planescape boxed sets, and my 2nd edition AD&D Night Below. They have not mysteriously disappeared, and I suspect that the discount Maztica boxed set sitting in the window of a second hand bookshop in the city centre will still be there too, (unless someone has bought it since I last went past).

What I take it that you refer to as 'historical game material' has not suddenly vanished. Public access to internet copies, which Hasbro/WotC had offered for a fee may have been withdrawn (sort of like a public...
My PHB disappeared. It's just gone. I suspect my son has it in his room but until I find evidence to that effect, I'm outraged!

I woke up this morning to find my PHB and PHB 2 missing. In it's place was a note that read:

the note wrote:
Because you purchased these books from a distributer other than Wizards of the Coast, we have confiscated them. If you ever wish to see them again you will place all of your 3.5 and third party materials on your lawn and burn them in a bonfire. Please make sure to have marshmallows for the team which will be returning your books.

I guess I have to write them off now. ;-)

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

yoda8myhead wrote:
Tarren Dei wrote:
My PHB disappeared. It's just gone. I suspect my son has it in his room but until I find evidence to that effect, I'm outraged!

He's studying for miniSpuerstar. Let him have it.

Also, change your icon because I keep thinking you're Betts, and given the differing tones and natures of your posts, it's really throwing me off.

I've been thinking of changing my avatar but I'm waiting for Gary to put up one I like. I almost went for the Erastil one.


Yes, if you won't listen to me, listen to Yoda.
DO IT FOR THE CHILDREN, DR. DEI!

Liberty's Edge

I STILL think Dr. Dei sounds like a cool Bond villain name.


And you're still correct.


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
Of course it's fine to have fun with Pax's post, in the right kind of spirit, but I take it that you get his point.

Pax seemed to have several points, but some of them seemed to be treading a little close to being personal attacks on other posters and to be contrary to what I like to feel is the 'spirit of these boards'. I'm uneasy with some of the attacks that KaeYoss and Pax Veritas have been recently making, and the posting style of some of Scott's responses.

My impression of this thread is that it's currently like a pressure cooker, which some posters have been posting in for too long, getting more and more zealous and rant-like in their posts, and I'm worried it will explode at any moment.

I believe that there are things other than WotC's latest PR disaster which we should be discussing, rather than going round and round in circles with the same words being bandied back and forth, teetering ever closer to the edge of becoming outright trolls.

Frankly this whole thread is starting to depress me, and I wish it would just go away. This may well be my last attempt to post on it for any purpose other than an attempt to derail it if a crash seems to be coming.

Edit:
And smurf.

Further Edit:
And apologies to Pax, for any offence.
And smurf once more.


I understand, Charles. I guess it depends on what you hope the fun-poking might accomplish. (And here, I don't mean to question your motives but just to make observations.) My own take is that, online, unless you know somebody really well, fun-poking won't accomplish what it sometimes accomplishes in real life: release of tension, getting the person to step back and take a breath, etc., but more likely to just enrage them further. Now, there may be some people who deserve to be enraged further, but I happen to think in this case that Pax is not one of them, for what it's worth.

You may well very be right. How many threads are dedicated to this now? Two? Three? And they're still among the fastest-growing threads on the site? Give me a break. There are better things to discuss, and the organizing and venting that needed to be done have been done, and on top of that we did ended up with some interesting and somewhat informed speculation on what might really be going on behind all of this (though frankly, this is less important to me.)

So say Charles, so say I: SMURF IT...smurf it good.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Tarren Dei wrote:


My PHB disappeared. It's just gone. I suspect my son has it in his room but until I find evidence to that effect, I'm outraged!

Amusingly enough, I went to get a couple WoD books off my bookshelf this mornign before work and couldn't find them. I assume they're still packed up, but maybe WotC is going after non-D&D related material as well ;-)

Dark Archive

Charles Evans 25 wrote:


My impression of this thread is that it's currently like a pressure cooker, which some posters have been posting in for too long, getting more and more zealous and rant-like in their posts, and I'm worried it will explode at any moment.

I will admit that I have been blowing off some steam in this thread. Earlier in the week a very close friend of my wife got the phone call that they have been dreading for eighteen months. In August of 2007 her oldest son left work and disappeared. It was assumed that he had run away because he had just received his paycheck, and his truck was missing too. Then on Monday, they discovered his truck, and what remained of the body at the bottom of a canyon near a popular recreation area less then fifty miles from where he disappeared. It appears that he was driving up the canyon and lost control of his truck, which skidded off the road and rolled until it stopped at the bottom of the ravine. That area was never formally searched because it was assumed he was headed for either Salt Lake or Las Vegas, both of which are over 400 miles away. It was only by chance that the vice president of the local Lions Club spotted the truck at the bottom of the ravine while looking for his dog. If I offended anyone I wish to apologize, I have not been myself for the last week.


I find it humorous that some posters here seem to be implying (at least subconsciously) that all pirated versions of a product are of equal quality and worth. That just because there might not be pdf purchases you can make for future products that can be pirated, that this won't stop people from scanning in books and making pdfs to pirate and that these two are equivalent.

I would argue there is a world of difference between those. Much as if there was a pirated version of a movie that was made with a hand-held camcorder and a pirate version of a movie that was dvd quality made from a copy given to reviewers.

Now, I know, just because pdf sales has stopped doesn't mean that someone at WotC won't leak it themselves. And that is certainly true, but I would assume that it is often more likely to find an internal leak of a much smaller number of people than to try to track down everyone on the internet. But hey, I'm crazy like that.

Also I find it interesting that people have such a low view of the quality of Paizo's products that they assume that nobody would be interested in a pirated copy of it or that someone in a, perhaps misguided, attempt to let others see the quality would make pirated copies. If you think so poorly of Paizo, why are you here? As they say, imitiation is the highest form of flattery, and what is a better imitiation than a complete copy?


David, is that what your other thread was about? I am so sorry for your family's loss.


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
David, is that what your other thread was about? I am so sorry for your family's loss.

+1

:(

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8

Sorry for your loss David.

Dark Archive

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
David, is that what your other thread was about? I am so sorry for your family's loss.

No. The other tread is remembering a rookie pitcher for the Los Angeles Angels who was killed in a hit and run accident early Thursday after pitching his first major league game.


I cannot imagine your having to wrestle with this for so long, or what your wife must have been going through. I'm praying for you guys. May I ask, what was his name?

Dark Archive

Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
I cannot imagine your having to wrestle with this for so long, or what your wife must have been going through. I'm praying for you guys. May I ask, what was his name?

His name was Chris Coan. Here is the story from the local newspaper. Interestingly, they were going to search the area after the snow season ended because Chris's uncle had woken from a coma believing that Chris' body had been found in that very ravine.

Edit:I think we all knew that he was dead, but nobody wanted to admit it because as long as we hadn't found him, we could keep on pretending that he just didn't want to get in touch with us.


pres man wrote:

I find it humorous that some posters here seem to be implying (at least subconsciously) that all pirated versions of a product are of equal quality and worth. That just because there might not be pdf purchases you can make for future products that can be pirated, that this won't stop people from scanning in books and making pdfs to pirate and that these two are equivalent.

I would argue there is a world of difference between those. Much as if there was a pirated version of a movie that was made with a hand-held camcorder and a pirate version of a movie that was dvd quality made from a copy given to reviewers.

Now, I know, just because pdf sales has stopped doesn't mean that someone at WotC won't leak it themselves. And that is certainly true, but I would assume that it is often more likely to find an internal leak of a much smaller number of people than to try to track down everyone on the internet. But hey, I'm crazy like that.

Also I find it interesting that people have such a low view of the quality of Paizo's products that they assume that nobody would be interested in a pirated copy of it or that someone in a, perhaps misguided, attempt to let others see the quality would make pirated copies. If you think so poorly of Paizo, why are you here? As they say, imitiation is the highest form of flattery, and what is a better imitiation than a complete copy?

I'm having a hard time making any sense of this post. I haven't seen any real intimation that a pirated copy would have the same quality and features as the official product. Though, frankly, for a lot people's needs a legible copy is sufficient and drives enough demand for piracy to continue unabated.

I'm also not sure why someone would think Paizo's products would be less subject to piracy... except for a couple of reasons: 1) lower profile than D&D. Higher profile stuff simply gets pirated more. There's more demand for it, it's more accessible to pirates, etc. 2) they have a legitimate channel of PDFs, including giving them away for free to subscribers of products lines.
But I'm not really sure what you're trying to imply at the end of your post.


Bill Dunn wrote:
I'm having a hard time making any sense of this post. I haven't seen any real intimation that a pirated copy would have the same quality and features as the official product. Though, frankly, for a lot people's needs a legible copy is sufficient and drives enough demand for piracy to continue unabated.

While piracy in its purest sense will continue, by its relying on much more inferior products (scanned in books versus production model pdfs), it will not take as big of a bite out of actual sales (and might actually drive up sales). Quite a few people with inferior pirated versions will natural want a much more high quality product and will then purchase the hardcopy eventually (not everyone obvious, but a significant number). On the other hand, pdf sales have shown that a quality version can in some cases replace a hard copy version for some. Pirated copies of this nature may not end up driving up actual sales.

Going back to my movie analogy. While a camcorder version might be enough for some, many will eventually want to get something of at least DVD quality. If they could get that from a pirated version for free, then there is no need to purchase the DVD. But if all you can get is the camcorder pirated copy then a significant portion are still going to purchase the DVD eventually.

I guess in a nutshell, what I am saying is the quality of the pirated product has a great affect on how much this may interact with actually sales (either way).

Bill Dunn wrote:

I'm also not sure why someone would think Paizo's products would be less subject to piracy... except for a couple of reasons: 1) lower profile than D&D. Higher profile stuff simply gets pirated more. There's more demand for it, it's more accessible to pirates, etc. 2) they have a legitimate channel of PDFs, including giving them away for free to subscribers of products lines.

But I'm not really sure what you're trying to imply at the end of your post.

Well a poster suggested that Paizo's products might also be pirated and they were attacked for daring to suggest such a thing and not to even think about it unless they have proof they can post. I agree with you, I don't understand why someone would think that there aren't people that might wish to pirate Paizo's stuff.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

David Fryer wrote:
Mairkurion {tm} wrote:
I cannot imagine your having to wrestle with this for so long, or what your wife must have been going through. I'm praying for you guys. May I ask, what was his name?

His name was Chris Coan. Here is the story from the local newspaper. Interestingly, they were going to search the area after the snow season ended because Chris's uncle had woken from a coma believing that Chris' body had been found in that very ravine.

Edit:I think we all knew that he was dead, but nobody wanted to admit it because as long as we hadn't found him, we could keep on pretending that he just didn't want to get in touch with us.

Frak...

I'll keep y'all in my prayers.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
pres man wrote:
a poster suggested that Paizo's products might also be pirated and they were attacked for daring to suggest such a thing and not to even think about it unless they have proof they can post. I agree with you, I don't understand why someone would think that there aren't people that might wish to pirate Paizo's stuff.

I think it's just a matter of being rude to talk about on Paizo's own boards pres man.


Majuba wrote:
I think it's just a matter of being rude to talk about on Paizo's own boards pres man.

Interesting. Would you agree then it would be equally rude to talk about it in respect to WotC on their own boards?


pres man wrote:
While piracy in its purest sense will continue, by its relying on much more inferior products (scanned in books versus production model pdfs), it will not take as big of a bite out of actual sales (and might actually drive up sales).

Why do you assume scanned in books are inferior?


Disenchanter wrote:
pres man wrote:
While piracy in its purest sense will continue, by its relying on much more inferior products (scanned in books versus production model pdfs), it will not take as big of a bite out of actual sales (and might actually drive up sales).
Why do you assume scanned in books are inferior?

Because I have seen pdfs of scanned in books and pdfs of production quality, and found the scanned in books to be inferior.

Dark Archive

pres man wrote:

I guess in a nutshell, what I am saying is the quality of the pirated product has a great affect on how much this may interact with actually sales (either way).

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but I think the recent distribution of the unfinished Wolverine movie show that quality of something being pirated is less relevant than the content.

At least in the initial release phase. If I remember correctly from other discussions, 4E material was being pirated "off the truck" long before any of the original digital source was being put on the file shares.


Dark_Mistress wrote:
pres man wrote:


Weren't those all pulped? Where did you find a copy still being sold?

======

One of the local Barnes and Nobles and a Borders I know for sure both still have at least one copy left each on the shelves. So they are still around and they was never pulled from any store that I am aware of.

Speaking of the BoEF that is.

I've seen the BoEF at local bookstores too, as well as a few WoTC 3.5 books like Races of Eberron and Robert J. Schwalb's two books on villains.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
pres man wrote:
Majuba wrote:
I think it's just a matter of being rude to talk about on Paizo's own boards pres man.
Interesting. Would you agree then it would be equally rude to talk about it in respect to WotC on their own boards?

Yes, in general, though WotC breached the subject at this point in time with their press release and actions. In any case I was merely offering an explanation for the responses you were getting. You seemed confused.


pres man wrote:
Because I have seen pdfs of scanned in books and pdfs of production quality, and found the scanned in books to be inferior.

Fair enough. I'd hazard a guess though, that you haven't observed the pirated book scans then. (Good on you, by the way.) It is fairly amazing what a group of people with plenty of free time can do with (legitimately) free tools.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Scott Betts wrote:
My statement wasn't "misleading" in the slightest. You are reading intent into it that doesn't exist. I write enough that I am usually pretty aware of how my words will be received, and the clarification I wrote was intended only to explain that piracy probably doesn't run rampant in this community, but that it does exist within the Pathfinder fan base. If you find that somehow insulting, I'm afraid it's something you're going to have to deal with - it's the truth. There is probably no subgroup within the D&D community that is immune from this. I don't think anyone here should operate under the delusion that the Paizo fan base is somehow collectively "above" piracy any more than the next group.

I let myself think about this overnight, and yes, I do find your generalization insulting, just as I find any comment based on a group (race, sex, creed, color, religion, whatever) insulting. The whole reason for this outrage is the piracy of Wotci's material, not Paizo's. Yet you are making a point of naming Pathfinder and Paizo in your speculations about piracy.

I am not naive enough to beleive that there are no pirates among any particular fangroup in gaming, but I do not go around pointing fingers at any of the groups. If you must insist on using some term, use the generic "Gamer" -- please stop pointing at the fans here. That is what I am insulted by.

Liberty's Edge

Our Borders at Mid Rivers mall in St. Peters Mo has a BoEF on the fantasy book shelf. Walk through the front door, pass the seasonal racks and tables, and immediately to your right before you reach the magazines. </snark>

That book is yucky. I don't know why anyone would buy it or pirate it. :p


Why do you think it is yucky?

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Studpuffin wrote:

Our Borders at Mid Rivers mall in St. Peters Mo has a BoEF on the fantasy book shelf. Walk through the front door, pass the seasonal racks and tables, and immediately to your right before you reach the magazines. </snark>

That book is yucky. I don't know why anyone would buy it or pirate it. :p

For the dildos!


Disenchanter wrote:
pres man wrote:
While piracy in its purest sense will continue, by its relying on much more inferior products (scanned in books versus production model pdfs), it will not take as big of a bite out of actual sales (and might actually drive up sales).
Why do you assume scanned in books are inferior?

Take my opinions with a grain of salt, as I am NOT a graphics guy...

PDF files are basically metadata. That means the document isn't stored as raster-based pictures of each page, but rather vector-based data describing the appearance of each page (though the embedded art is stored in a raster-based form).

However, many scanned PDFs are stored strictly as raster-based images of entire pages, making the files MUCH larger (and often uglier) with no upside. In fact, it basically defeats the purpose of using PDFs at all.

I think it is possible to use OCR software to partially alleviate this limitation, but I don't see how you'd could ever end up as something as "clean" as the original PDFs. Essentially the trip through the analog world has consequences...

So, in many cases, scanned-in books are objectively technically inferior; no assumption required.

Sovereign Court

Yes, I too can laugh at the idea that somehow my print copy collection of materials would somehow disappear. Of course, that will never happen - but I hear that initiative is part of the promises coming up at this year's Gen Con. Be sure to attend the holographic virtual game table seminar all about its scheduled release in December 2006!

But seriously, there is something fishy about wiping out all historicall .pdf verions of products. It should be obvious that .pdfs have made this old material much more accessible to people all over the world. And with endless copies available for purchase, it even revitalized interest in old school gaming. First edition is a very viable game to play - and a lot of fun. I cannot help but see a trend in how wotc has seemingly alienated its fan base, broken away from traditions, sought after the very young generation, seemingly feared competition from their own game a la v.3.5 and thus moved to GSL, and further had former restrictions about writing products for multiple lines of systems - remember the whole "once you write for 4, you cannot write for 3?" I just happen to be seeing with what I feel is some clarity, the bigger pieces of the puzzle snapping together. The opportunity to "close down" such readily available accessiblity to the past seems to be part of an agenda toward helping remove the lure of history and tradition.

Now, as other posters have indicated rightfully, if the elimination was just a byproduct of a War on Piracy, then by all means some one should clue them in on 1) TRYING TO COMMUNICATE WITH CUSTOMERS - a front page announcement in advance would have been nice 2) RESPECTING CUSTOMERS - an explanation in advance would have been nice 3) RESPECTING 3PPs - lead time to handle getting customers their already paid for copies and enough time to communicate and allow last minute purchases and 4) the fact that legitimate purchases of .pdfs are good for so many throughout the world and pirates will only increase piracy in the absence of any legal ways to obtain materials.

Yeah - my dead tree collection isn't disappearing, but all faith or trust in wotc has now vasished.

Like a big bulley, they flexed muscle with the GSL, and with dragging their feet in delivering it, with strong discourtesy to 3PPs and customers. Like a big bulley they now come wearing cloaks in the night, remove the items, and remain relatively silent about it.

Nope. Doesn't work for me. Unacceptable.


bugleyman wrote:
However, many scanned PDFs are stored strictly as raster-based images of entire pages, making the files MUCH larger (and often uglier) with no upside. In fact, it basically defeats the purpose of using PDFs at all.

But with storage being as cheap as it is now, "MUCH larger" (being the difference of maybe 12MB) certainly doesn't mean much. Also, uglier is purely subjective. If the text is clear and searchable (as well as bookmarked and indexed), do you really think many pirates would care if the page graphics around the boarder are slightly grainy or blurry?

bugleyman wrote:
So, in many cases, scanned-in books are objectively technically inferior; no assumption required.

I'd agree. But so are CDs to Vinyl. And MP3s to CDs. And yet what do consumers demand more of?

951 to 1,000 of 1,655 << first < prev | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Paizo / Website Feedback / WotC halts PDF sales All Messageboards