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This kind of quick drop-off is something we've seen for multiple editions now. Its peak position was notable, since its the highest a D&D supplemental product has reached that I'm aware of.
Fair enough, but Amazon position in no way indicates quality.
Heck, look how long Titanic stood as the Box Office king ...
If you want to give money to Paizo because you think you're "sticking it to the man", you need to take a good hard look at yourself.
See, I'm pretty sure that we all "need to take a good hard look at" ourselves. But I really doubt that this is a reason on which to base it, or an area that demands it.
The truly outrageous response this particular business decision has received from the fan base has convinced me never to involve myself in the tabletop publishing profession. While some of the fans are respectful, thoughtful and level-headed, a significant portion of the fanbase appears to be anything but. I would not wish to spend my life working on quality products for a bunch of people who display an attitude like that seen online over the past few days.
I am thinking you've never worked in customer relations Scott. Any product is like this. I field bytches about fencing every day from angry people. It's human nature.
But really, shall we parse the facts out?
Sure. I'm game.
1) WotC releases the Player's Handbook 2 to a very positive reception. Piracy of the new book is very high.
An unfortunate byproduct of our digital age.
2) In response to the sudden spike of pirate activity, WotC decides to reign in PDF distribution until it can come up with a solution where its business is not being harmed.
I could see maybe taking the PHB II off, but everything? That's like trying to swat a fly with a sledgehammer. Wouldn't it have been better never to have released the PHB II in PDF form? Not that that would have helped much either, but it might have slowed the pirates down a bit.
3) RPGNow and DriveThruRPG misunderstand the intent of WotC's decision and immediately remove all WotC products instead of allowing a period of time for customers to download products before removing them.
Correct. But this applies only to already bought items. The PDFs were still going away. And with very little lead time. I know I would have bought a few more things had I a week to do so.
4) The particularly vocal amongst the fanbase go nuts, accusing WotC of stealing from its customers, not giving them any warning, and being big, mean bullies.
And the opposite side has tried to blame Paizo and DriveThruRPG for the problems, accusing Paizo of being a 'leech', a 'parasite' and a 'cancer'.
5) The RPGNow/DriveThruRPG guys say "Whoops, we didn't get the message quite right, we were supposed to let you guys have some time to finish downloading your stuff."
The posting admits they cut everything too quickly (see above), but also in a very polite fashion disagrees with WotC's handling of the matter.
6) The vocal portion of the fanbase, already frothing with comedic rage, glosses over this and just keeps on spewing vitriol. The lesson that they should have waited for the details of the decision to emerge before jumping to embarrassing conclusions is completely lost on them.
The descision still stands that all PDFs no matter what are gone. Whether they will be re-released remains to be seen. Even if they are, more than likely it will be in a way that is unpalatable to many PDF users.
WotC decided that to protect itself it needs to figure out a new way to distribute its catalog digitally. That's their prerogative, whether it ends up being effective or not. It's true that attempts to stop piracy like this are generally fruitless, but that's WotC's lesson to learn.
Intellectual property piracy has been around since printing presses (and most likely long before). I deplore the practice, but I am a realist that you aren't going to stop it with hamfisted moves like this. Once again, fly meet sledgehammer.
Yes, if you're slowly trying to build a collection of older material you'll have to wait for them to restore a digital distribution service. Oh no.
Once again we are assuming they will rerelease this material.
But the rest of you (which is quite a few of you) are not even mildly inconvenienced by this decision.
I am inconvenienced. I feel dismay at this. I also feel that saying this is for piracy is disingenuous. But that is strictly my opinion.
I suspect that a pretty significant number of those venting here don't actually care about the situation. They just see WotC doing something they perceive as dumb and feel like they can't miss an opportunity to jump on the internet hate machine bandwagon.
Welcome to the internet.
I have taken time to defend the 4e folks who post here, and I still do. I don't see how this descision makes a difference in 4e. It is a corporate descision, probably one made way up the food chain by a suit in RI. What has really amazed me is the level of hate and vitriol I found aimed at Paizo while lurking about other sites. Truly the postings here have been daisy mae compared to other places.
Scott, I know you love your game and all, but can't you admit that Hasbro or WotC or whoever just MIGHT have handled this a little bit better?
No. I was saying that I was asking people to take a good hard look at the way they are responding (verbally) to this decision. How much money you decide to spend on gaming materials has nothing to do with it. By all means, buy everything Paizo has to offer. Nothing would please me more.
Irrespective of how I feel about 4e (which I'm not against), I feel like this is a poor decision on their part. If there isn't an outcry, they won't know they screwed up. And I feel that they have screwed up.
How, then, do you think it is harmful?Scott Betts, I have to ask - what value do you see in preventing people from ranting harmlessly and venting their displeasure in a harmless fashion?None. If I felt that the conduct exhibited here and elsewhere on the internet was harmless, I wouldn't get involved.
It is far from harmless, though.
I realize that a lot of people think that you can say anything you want on the internet and none of it matters (because, hey, it's the internet!), but that's not the case.
First, a lot of what we saw in the last couple days was straight-up rumormongering. A lot of it turned out to be untrue, or misrepresented. That doesn't matter, though, because forum-thread-reader-X doesn't know any better. When forum-thread-reader-X sees someone screaming "WotC steals from its customers!" (and this is not an exaggeration - before the DTRPG situation was made clear, people were indeed saying exactly that) that's going to leave an impression even though it's false.
Second, real people who work for this monolithic company called WotC (in point of fact, a couple floors of an unremarkable office building in Renton) and those real people read message boards like these.
This kind of vitriol is almost never harmless.
If you want to give money to Paizo because you think you're "sticking it to the man", you need to take a good hard look at yourself.See, I'm pretty sure that we all "need to take a good hard look at" ourselves. But I really doubt that this is a reason on which to base it, or an area that demands it.
* takes a good hard look at himself *
I'm a 39-year-old man who pulls the hood on his hoodie up when he switches into his DM-mode ... even when he's alone in a basement typing posts for a play-by-post game. I'm pathetic.
* weeps *
Don't ever make me take a good hard look at myself again, Scott!
This kind of quick drop-off is something we've seen for multiple editions now. Its peak position was notable, since its the highest a D&D supplemental product has reached that I'm aware of.Fair enough, but Amazon position in no way indicates quality.
Heck, look how long Titanic stood as the Box Office king ...
Not that it's related, but Best Picture awards do tend to indicate quality.
What the Amazon position does indicate (or at least suggest) is its popularity. I don't think we've seen anyone saying "4th Edition is better than X because it sells more copies!"
Irrespective of how I feel about 4e (which I'm not against), I feel like this is a poor decision on their part. If there isn't an outcry, they won't know they screwed up. And I feel that they have screwed up.
No. I was saying that I was asking people to take a good hard look at the way they are responding (verbally) to this decision. How much money you decide to spend on gaming materials has nothing to do with it. By all means, buy everything Paizo has to offer. Nothing would please me more.
But that's just it - if there wasn't an outcry they would know that they screwed up if their decision didn't improve the piracy/sales situation. And, conversely, just because there's an outcry doesn't mean they did screw up if it turns out that their decision improves the piracy/sales situation.
In this particular case, outcry doesn't do anything useful except make the fan base look ugly. Which is bad, because the fan base already looks pretty ugly given that piracy in it is so rampant the publishing giant of the tabletop community felt that PDF availability was harming their business.
If you want to give money to Paizo because you think you're "sticking it to the man", you need to take a good hard look at yourself.See, I'm pretty sure that we all "need to take a good hard look at" ourselves. But I really doubt that this is a reason on which to base it, or an area that demands it.* takes a good hard look at himself *
I'm a 39-year-old man who pulls the hood on his hoodie up when he switches into his DM-mode ... even when he's alone in a basement typing posts for a play-by-post game. I'm pathetic.
* weeps *
Don't ever make me take a good hard look at myself again, Scott!
Sorry! Maybe in some cases a good soft look would be more prudent.
Irrespective of how I feel about 4e (which I'm not against), I feel like this is a poor decision on their part. If there isn't an outcry, they won't know they screwed up. And I feel that they have screwed up.
No. I was saying that I was asking people to take a good hard look at the way they are responding (verbally) to this decision. How much money you decide to spend on gaming materials has nothing to do with it. By all means, buy everything Paizo has to offer. Nothing would please me more.
That feeling seems to be shared.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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In this particular case, outcry doesn't do anything useful except make the fan base look ugly.Pssst. Have you seen the fan base, Scott? We may be too late.
* takes another good hard look at himself *
* weeps some more *
Not me. I'm sexy.
Yeah, I know you are, but the fleas prevent you from enjoying that.
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What the Amazon position does indicate (or at least suggest) is its popularity. I don't think we've seen anyone saying "4th Edition is better than X because it sells more copies!"
Ya, I was living in a different moment there when back in the day the Amazon numbers were being bandied about in interweb forums as an indicator that 4E was better than 3.x.
Either way, as any kind of indicator it seems to fail.
Clearly, high Amazon numbers didn't prevent WotC from over-reacting, nor does it seem to have any relation to whether or not things are or are not being pirated.
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... and those real people read message boards like these.
Hmmn. Yes, let's hope the folks with a monolith up their, will actually read message boards like these. Perhaps they will find a community that holds a company accountable for poor decisions and poor customer service. Yes, let's hope that those people read message boards like these becuase they FORBID and constructive talk/discussion on their own messageboards. We are shown portreyals of customers providing feedback in a cartoon where a Troll plays a customer, and informed nobody is allowed to show disapproval of 4e or the GSL on their own messageboards. With openness unavailable, and marketing demonstrating closed-minded, rash, childish behavior.... I agree with you Mr. Betts that we should hope that those real people read message boards like these. I wouldn't doubt it would do them some good.
Piracy will always exist. Resistance is futile.
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Ryan Dancey has some interesting thoughts.
Scott, while I think that some people's vitriol at WotC is a bit over the top, its really hard to see this as anything other than a really poor PR blunder. And while the other two PDF distributors misunderstood what they were supposed to do (by a degree of only a few hours) why assume the faulty communication was on the part of the listeners. When multiple people misunderstand what I meant to say, I normally assume its because I as the messenger failed to communicate.
* takes a good hard look at himself *
I'm a 39-year-old man who pulls the hood on his hoodie up when he switches into his DM-mode ... even when he's alone in a basement typing posts for a play-by-post game. I'm pathetic.
* weeps *
Don't ever make me take a good hard look at myself again, Scott!
You've taken your first step into a far larger world...oh, and nice robe.
3) RPGNow and DriveThruRPG misunderstand the intent of WotC's decision and immediately remove all WotC products instead of allowing a period of time for customers to download products before removing them.
I want to respond to this point only, because the other points have been addressed, but I keep on seeing this one over and over again.
The guy from RPGNow/DriveThruRPG said there was a "miscommunication". We haven't seen or heard what exactly was being said, so a "miscommunication" might either mean that they 'misunderstood' the original message or that WotC's original message was 'misphrased'. You are assuming the former, but it is by no means clear and it could just as well be the latter. It could even be damage control - perhaps the message was not misunderstood and WotC did not misphrase it, but upon seeing the anger this move has generated, WotC changed its mind, called them up and told them that the intent was different.
I just want to clear this up, because this assumption is being made all too often.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2012
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Has WotC said anything official about discontinuing sales of PDFs on sites like RPGNow or Paizo? Not that I've seen. We've been left to speculate based on the information we have. I think, perhaps incorrectly, that a lot of confusion, frustration, and anger would be alleviated by a simple press release. There hasn't been one directly related to this, though. It really makes WotC look bad, in my opinion.
The solution is simple. New avatar for Dr Dei!
Hmmn. Yes, let's hope the folks with a monolith up their, will actually read message boards like these. Perhaps they will find a community that holds a company accountable for poor decisions and poor customer service.
The real people reading these boards don't have any power over business decisions like this. You're missing the point completely.
Yes, let's hope that those people read message boards like these becuase they FORBID and constructive talk/discussion on their own messageboards.
They don't do anything of the sort. Please head over to the WotC boards and take a look at the thread on this very topic. If anything, they've been incredibly lenient about how much they've let slide these past few days.
Please don't make things up just because you want to make them look worse.
We are shown portreyals of customers providing feedback in a cartoon where a Troll plays a customer,
Which was extremely funny, not to mention insightful. If you were offended by that cartoon, it's probably because you identified with the troll. And if you identified with the troll, that's its own problem that you need to deal with.
and informed nobody is allowed to show disapproval of 4e or the GSL on their own messageboards.
Not only is this allowed, but it takes place every day on their boards. Again, making things up like this is not going to get you anywhere. If posts are removed it is because they are purposefully baiting and are very clearly not constructive.
With openness unavailable, and marketing demonstrating closed-minded, rash, childish behavior.... I agree with you Mr. Betts that we should hope that those real people read message boards like these. I wouldn't doubt it would do them some good.
This callousness - coupled with a complete lack of interest in understanding - is precisely one of the reasons the tabletop gaming community is so unattractive to watch.
Ryan Dancey has some interesting thoughts.
Scott, while I think that some people's vitriol at WotC is a bit over the top, its really hard to see this as anything other than a really poor PR blunder. And while the other two PDF distributors misunderstood what they were supposed to do (by a degree of only a few hours) why assume the faulty communication was on the part of the listeners. When multiple people misunderstand what I meant to say, I normally assume its because I as the messenger failed to communicate.
It could be, but a number of people were cautioning early on to wait for clarification before jumping to unfounded conclusions. Those people were ignored in favor of something that resembles classic mob mentality to a very frightening degree.
Has WotC said anything official about discontinuing sales of PDFs on sites like RPGNow or Paizo? Not that I've seen. We've been left to speculate based on the information we have. I think, perhaps incorrectly, that a lot of confusion, frustration, and anger would be alleviated by a simple press release. There hasn't been one directly related to this, though. It really makes WotC look bad, in my opinion.
There hasn't been a press release, but there have been a number of official statements on the subject.
You can find some of them in this article.
What we haven't seen so far is word from anyone on the actual D&D teams.
It could be, but a number of people were cautioning early on to wait for clarification before jumping to unfounded conclusions. Those people were ignored in favor of something that resembles classic mob mentality to a very frightening degree.Ryan Dancey has some interesting thoughts.
Scott, while I think that some people's vitriol at WotC is a bit over the top, its really hard to see this as anything other than a really poor PR blunder. And while the other two PDF distributors misunderstood what they were supposed to do (by a degree of only a few hours) why assume the faulty communication was on the part of the listeners. When multiple people misunderstand what I meant to say, I normally assume its because I as the messenger failed to communicate.
~raises my hand while jumping up and down~ Oh! Oh! Can I join the faceless mob intent upon destroying everying that is good and holy in this world? Pleeeaaaaaasssssseeeeeeeeee!
The solution is simple. New avatar for Dr Dei!Hehehe. Don't hate Scott and I cause we're beautiful.
However, we can see a clear-cut case of image infrngement here. If either of you would like to pursue a lawsuit, just draw a thaumaturgic circle in the basement of your dungeon and a Lich customer representative would be happy to put you in touch with one of our many skilled Lich attornies.
We don't suck your soul unless you win!
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It could be, but a number of people were cautioning early on to wait for clarification before jumping to unfounded conclusions. Those people were ignored in favor of something that resembles classic mob mentality to a very frightening degree.
I am curious as to what the unfounded conclusions you are refering to are?
The fact is the PDFs are gone and there was only a very short notice given.
Granted I have read a lot of speculation as to the whys, but thats only natural and most people admit they are only speculating. It seems silly to get too upset about people speculating. I try not to do it myself but in a vacuum of information, its what comes natural. And WotC isn't exactly rushing to settle things down either. Their own PR person tries to spin it as no big deal to the customers, evidence to the contrary.
...etc, etc
RAWWWWR!!!
...etc, etc
RAWWWWR!!!
<hefts volcanic hammer>
FIGHT, FIGHT,
OK, did anybody count? We're back to the bullying behavior.
Scott, take a look at what you're saying. You need a break.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2012
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Has WotC said anything official about discontinuing sales of PDFs on sites like RPGNow or Paizo? Not that I've seen. We've been left to speculate based on the information we have. I think, perhaps incorrectly, that a lot of confusion, frustration, and anger would be alleviated by a simple press release. There hasn't been one directly related to this, though. It really makes WotC look bad, in my opinion.There hasn't been a press release, but there have been a number of official statements on the subject.
You can find some of them in this article.
What we haven't seen so far is word from anyone on the actual D&D teams.
That's nice and all, but it really doesn't address my issue. Yes, I could go hunt down all the official statements on the boards or wherever they exist, but I think it would be a better gesture on WotC's part to have something on the Wizards front page.
Has WotC said anything official about discontinuing sales of PDFs on sites like RPGNow or Paizo? Not that I've seen. We've been left to speculate based on the information we have. I think, perhaps incorrectly, that a lot of confusion, frustration, and anger would be alleviated by a simple press release. There hasn't been one directly related to this, though. It really makes WotC look bad, in my opinion.There hasn't been a press release, but there have been a number of official statements on the subject.
You can find some of them in this article.
What we haven't seen so far is word from anyone on the actual D&D teams.
That's nice and all, but it really doesn't address my issue. Yes, I could go hunt down all the official statements on the boards or wherever they exist, but I think it would be a better gesture on WotC's part to have something on the Wizards front page.
I agree.
OK, did anybody count? We're back to the bullying behavior.
Scott, take a look at what you're saying. You need a break.
I didn't see anyone bullying. For the past couple of pages this discussion has remained largely civil and free of hyperbole.
I didn't see anyone bullying. For the past couple of pages this discussion has remained largely civil and free of hyperbole.OK, did anybody count? We're back to the bullying behavior.
Scott, take a look at what you're saying. You need a break.
I actually agree. I may not agree with all you have said, but you have been civil. Keep up the good work.
P.S. - And you had better 100% agree with me on EVERYTHING!!!
P.P.S. - ~GRINS~
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No consumer should have to go through this. Especially, I would think, not over a "game", moreso, not over a game that used to inspire the imagination, and unlock bigger ways of thinking. The game that was once known for opening minds has been hijacked! The IP of D&D does not deserve to be in the hands of those who would do it such harm. But as it has come to this, I shall abandon both!
Amidst all this I am so very glad that the discoveries of Gygax and Arneson, and the important contribution of Dancey preserved the art of fantasy role-play games for all times to come.
As they conceal the game's history, we will create a new one.
As they grasp recklessly to hold on, we will let go.
If the stories we tell while playing our beloved game have taught us one thing, it is that the future is unwritten, and heroes true of heart can overcome and defeat obstacles.
I think of Gary, sitting there at PAIZO's table at Gen Con, and earning a modicum of respect, unlike years gone by where Gary was relegated to a side show (or so I am told) off Gygax lane.... I think of Erik Mona, publishing the last of Gary's works. And how befitting it shall be that the unwritten future of our game, becomes written by us.
We must always hold the stewards of our game to the highest of standards. And PAIZO has met this high standard. I do not fear the fall of a goliath, nor do I find unlikely that a boy such as Arthur could pull a sword from a stone.
May our stories and their meanings guide us through this difficult time - and provide us wisdom to see what future we must write ourselves.
I didn't see anyone bullying. For the past couple of pages this discussion has remained largely civil and free of hyperbole.OK, did anybody count? We're back to the bullying behavior.
Scott, take a look at what you're saying. You need a break.
I actually agree. I may not agree with all you have said, but you have been civil. Keep up the good work.
P.S. - And you had better 100% agree with me on EVERYTHING!!!
P.P.S. - ~GRINS~
I got an agreement. :)
The refusal to sympathize with points of view and feelings which differ from your own may be blocking your ability to see the bullying.
The "if you don't agree with my interpretation of the troll cartoon then you must be a troll" bit is a piece of intellectual bullying. It is dishonest. Not caring how others feel about Wotc's treatment of them, but expecting us to care about how feelings of employees are affected by our venting, is hypocritical. Seriously, this is likely to not be beneficial, but the blindness exhibited while trying to remove other's blinkers is just a little much.
The refusal to sympathize with points of view and feelings which differ from your own may be blocking your ability to see the bullying.
But I am 100% right! I am not sure what I am right about or even what I should be right about, but I am 100% right!
Right?
The refusal to sympathize with points of view and feelings which differ from your own may be blocking your ability to see the bullying.
::hugs the Leafy Man:: Ignore it and it may go away :) I agree with you, Mairkurion, but I am going to ignore what I do not chose to lower myself to respond to and smile and cheer for the rest of our family here!
~gives a tired sigh~ Oh well. At this point the ball is in WotC's court. There is nothing we can do to change that. I for one have done my best to be civil and try to help everyone else from going bonkers. Lets call it a day and resume this tomorrow.
Those things in your hair are quite fetching...
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The refusal to sympathize with points of view and feelings which differ from your own may be blocking your ability to see the bullying.
Well, he is goin in hot on a hard crowd...
The clarion cry of "mob mentality" I find nothing less than comical.It couldn't possibly be that so many people actually have a legitemate gripe, now could it.
No way, Jose!
Actually, I hope we talk about something else tomorrow. I'm afraid it will be Dave Arneson's passing.