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WotC halts PDF sales


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Scarab Sages

You can't blame WotC for not wanting a competitor , especially a competitor that has embarrassed them and in their view responsible for preventing more people from switching editions, to sell their products.


Ubermench wrote:


You can't blame WotC for not wanting a competitor , especially a competitor that has embarrassed them and in their view responsible for preventing more people from switching editions, to sell their products.

Well.. you have a point.

The consumer is also entitled to make a choice in respect with the sort of company they wish to do business with. By extension of your point, you can't blame people for refusing to do business with WOTC because of what they've done.

Dark Archive

I think I will let you guys know something. I have seen most of wod, wotc and other material on filesharing sites. But I have never seen pathfinder stuff on there. It's not because you can't distribute it (you can easily erase the watermark), it's because we purchase it legally. But WotC material is up there all the time.

What does that say to you?

Also, thanks for the support Erik and Vic. You guys are awesome, and you write quality material.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Ubermench wrote:

You can't blame WotC for not wanting a competitor , especially a competitor that has embarrassed them and in their view responsible for preventing more people from switching editions, to sell their products.

But it is not only this one special company that got this treatment, but also some others that hadn't done anything like that.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I know I have no inclination to put up Pathfinder products for sharing. Anyone else?

Liberty's Edge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
I know I have no inclination to put up Pathfinder products for sharing. Anyone else?

Not even remotely.

Dark Archive Dedicated Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Watcher wrote:
Try using some of their more recent 3.5 books instead and the hypothetical isn't nearly so far out there.

I agree with you about WoTC wanting to get rid of the compition, but if I've spent a ton of $ of 3.5 material already withdrawing the PDFs won't stop me from playing.

For newbies that want to get into the 3.5 game maybe.
Something made them look for 3.5e in the first place

Sovereign Court Star Voter 2014

*seething consumer loathing*

Let it be said, that E.G.G.'s passing coincided with the advent of 4e, and Arneson's passing coincided with this night-time stormtrooper move to "turn-off" the legacy of our game. The universe is full of messages, if we only listen. One did not affect the other, but the synchronicity is amazing.

This is a sad day, as we have lost the co-creator of our game, and now cannot have our 30+ year history accessible as needed/desired from the company(s) we do trust and belive in.

This will NEVER be forgotten.

Thank you PAIZO for the gesture and nod of good leadership with your 35% off PDF sale. More important than the savings, is the comfort of knowing Arneson's/Gygax's legacy, our 30+ year legacy, and traditions are safely continued under your watch.


If you sell a product which can be easily digitized and distributed, then you are trading on goodwill. That's why WotC is all over the web and Pathfinder isn't, I bet - it's not like pirating one is harder than the other.

Dark Archive

Wait, I can still buy the pdfs?! Someone shoot me the link!

Scarab Sages Marathon Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Pax Veritas wrote:

*seething consumer loathing*

Let it be said, that E.G.G.'s passing coincided with the advent of 4e, and Arneson's passing coincided with this night-time stormtrooper move to "turn-off" the legacy of our game. The universe is full of messages, if we only listen. One did not affect the other, but the synchronicity is amazing.

This is a sad day, as we have lost the co-creator of our game, and now cannot have our 30+ year history accessible as needed/desired from the company(s) we do trust and belive in.

This will NEVER be forgotten.

Thank you PAIZO for the gesture and nod of good leadership with your 35% off PDF sale. More important than the savings, is the comfort of knowing Arneson's/Gygax's legacy, our 30+ year legacy, and traditions are safely continued under your watch.

I did a quick search to see what happened...I see he was hospitalized a few days ago, but this is the first I've heard of his passing, can you confirm?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Did a quick search and found the Campaign Setting and a fillable Beta character sheet. We're doing well it seems to only have one item up for illegal download.


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber
Jared Ouimette wrote:
Your telling me they'll come all the way out to Iraq to arrest me? Fine, but its a 27 hour flight.

The president is already there!

Paizo Employee Developer

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
I did a quick search to see what happened...I see he was hospitalized a few days ago, but this is the first I've heard of his passing, can you confirm?

This is the only news source I can find on it, but they are operating under the assumption that he has passed, even if it's unconfirmed.

Escapist


Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
Time to switch games!!!

All hail Pathfinder!

Heathansson wrote:
Everybody is a future fired customer.

That's overly cynical, like Fight Club's "On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero."

Doesn't mean we should become lemmings.

Just as just about nothing excuses wizards actions and we shouldn't become their sheep and let them do whatever they want without voting with our wallets and being pissed when they fire customers right now.


Everybody become lemmings!
Everybody become lemmings!
That's exactly what I meant.

Dark Archive

For every yin there is a yang.

In this case two there are.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Did a quick search and found the Campaign Setting and a fillable Beta character sheet. We're doing well it seems to only have one item up for illegal download.

I looked, too, and there's Pathfinder all over the place. As DVD9, DVD5, ripped.... ;-)

Oh, and apparently I can also download cars :D

Ubermench wrote:

You can't blame WotC

Sure I can.

Plus, you can't blame us for never again giving any money to wizards or hasbro.


Lisa Stevens wrote:
Zynete wrote:
Does this include PDFs from older editions within the WotC products folder that were created under TSR like "AD&D T1-4: The Temple of Elemental Evil PDF" or "AD&D S3: Expedition to the Barrier Peaks PDF?"

Yes. All WotC PDFs from the original D&D onward are going away.

-Lisa

D@mn!

I can (sorta) understand not wanting PDFs of recent material to be floating around, but not wanting 1st-2nd Ed stuff available in PDF form? This just plain stinks.

Dark Archive

Zaister wrote:
Jared Ouimette wrote:
Your telling me they'll come all the way out to Iraq to arrest me? Fine, but its a 27 hour flight.
The president is already there!

Yeah, I saw him and shook his hand. I even got my picture taken with him. I put it in my MYSPACE blog. The subtitle? "My new Black Friend. Beat that, Colbert!"

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Did a quick search and found the Campaign Setting and a fillable Beta character sheet. We're doing well it seems to only have one item up for illegal download.

On the public trackers, maybe. The private ones... not so lucky. Other than Society modules, it's pretty much all availible.

Dark Archive

TO: The guy with the really long (but thematically interesting!) name:

Spoiler:
jaredouimette1 at netscape dot net

Why do you ask?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

If you'll forgive me for quoting myself (ah heck, I just like to hear myself...type...um...or something...) but the sheer idiocy of Wotc's blunder needs to be underlined.

Aotrscommander wrote:

I wasn't planning on spending any money on RPG in the immediate future; my somewhat limited funds were all ear-marked for more starships.

WotC have succeeded in not only convincing me to spend money on their competition in preference to them [on Paizo's sale] but that I otherwise wouldn't have spent at all!


Another in a rather long line of WotC decisions of late that are making me depressed. I think they would make just as much money without trying to force people to play the latest edition...

Havard

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game Subscriber
Kvantum wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Did a quick search and found the Campaign Setting and a fillable Beta character sheet. We're doing well it seems to only have one item up for illegal download.
On the public trackers, maybe. The private ones... not so lucky. Other than Society modules, it's pretty much all availible.

Usenet also saw someone posting nearly everything available up to date about 6 months ago (Up through the 3rd part of 2nd Darkness...) I didn't partake myself, but there's (obviously) no way to know who did.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Deluxe Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Cards, Pawns Subscriber

Just a little musing:
I have a hard time believing pdf versions of WotC products being the ultimate reason behind the withdrawal. Anybody knowing a bit about the piracy world as applied to printed matter (and surely Wizards has a small team or coven working on that) knows that book filesharing in fact predates the (more rencent) phenomenon of ESDs, OEFs and other by-company pdf releases. Since the early 90s people did scan books and comic books, at times with astounding efficiency. Not having a commercial pdf download will probably not reduce underground traffic of 4e newer materials, just produce a small time lag between the hardcopy release and the scan popping up somewhere.

What it does hurt is actually people liking to buy a .pdf by particular needs (like living overseas, saving budget) or because they have priorities in their archives. For one, till now I just got harcopies of 4e stuff with fluff-intensive contents (think MoP or Open Grave) or adventures, which require taking intensive notes. For most of the run-of-the-mill more powers, feats and class options, .pdfs made a nice addition without the extra cost. With that decision, people who got the physical books (and, coming to think of it, in the present era the logical thing would be to get a free pdf with each hardcopy) will keep doing so, and perhaps purchase less because of budget isses; people who got pirated copies will go on doing so (via scanning). The only meaningful change will be that some people who were primary pdf users (perhaps because 4e or the old eds were not their primary system) will perhaps turn to non-commercial illegal pdfs so they can keep enjoying electronic formats.

Definitely bad idea on the long run. Not for users, not for the company.


This is very sad indeed. I have been playing D$D in one form or another for about 22 years. I have watched it progress and degress and now I don't know what to think. I am stunned at WOTC decision to halt the sale of PDF's. I still play 1st and 2nd editon AD&D. I have been buying PDF's from Paizo to supplement the books in my collection which I do not have. It has been great! I understand there concern. I However, believe that this will just cause those who are honest to download illegally. I feel betrayed by Wizards of the Coast again. They have no concern for those of us that have played and play prior editions of the game. I do hope that Wizards of the Coast readjusts their position on this subject.

Yours Truly Long Time Fan

Gary M.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Ubermench wrote:
You can't blame WotC for not wanting a competitor , especially a competitor that has embarrassed them and in their view responsible for preventing more people from switching editions, to sell their products.

There are still over 3,000 WotC products for sale on paizo.com - it was only the PDF's that they pulled and it was PDF's from all sources, not just Paizo.

Scarab Sages Marathon Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Andreas Skye wrote:

Just a little musing:

I have a hard time believing pdf versions of WotC products being the ultimate reason behind the withdrawal. Anybody knowing a bit about the piracy world as applied to printed matter (and surely Wizards has a small team or coven working on that) knows that book filesharing in fact predates the (more rencent) phenomenon of ESDs, OEFs and other by-company pdf releases. Since the early 90s people did scan books and comic books, at times with astounding efficiency. Not having a commercial pdf download will probably not reduce underground traffic of 4e newer materials, just produce a small time lag between the hardcopy release and the scan popping up somewhere.

What it does hurt is actually people liking to buy a .pdf by particular needs (like living overseas, saving budget) or because they have priorities in their archives. For one, till now I just got harcopies of 4e stuff with fluff-intensive contents (think MoP or Open Grave) or adventures, which require taking intensive notes. For most of the run-of-the-mill more powers, feats and class options, .pdfs made a nice addition without the extra cost. With that decision, people who got the physical books (and, coming to think of it, in the present era the logical thing would be to get a free pdf with each hardcopy) will keep doing so, and perhaps purchase less because of budget isses; people who got pirated copies will go on doing so (via scanning). The only meaningful change will be that some people who were primary pdf users (perhaps because 4e or the old eds were not their primary system) will perhaps turn to non-commercial illegal pdfs so they can keep enjoying electronic formats.

Definitely bad idea on the long run. Not for users, not for the company.

Yeah, definitely some nefarious profiteering going on here...

Scarab Sages Marathon Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014

Rauol_Duke wrote:
Ubermench wrote:
You can't blame WotC for not wanting a competitor , especially a competitor that has embarrassed them and in their view responsible for preventing more people from switching editions, to sell their products.
There are still over 3,000 WotC products for sale on paizo.com - it was only the PDF's that they pulled and it was PDF's from allsources, not just Paizo.

If I'm not mistaken they could tell Paizo to pull those products correct? (New not used). Tell them to tear off the front cover and mark as overstock or something like that?

Liberty's Edge

You know what, if they're trying to protect their products in physical stores they're not doing a very good job. At my local hobby shop there is a full rack of 4e stuff... and a full rack of nothing but Pathfinder modules, guides, and gamemastery materials. They're toe-for-toe around St. Louis. That doesn't even include the other things like Kenzer, Green Ronin, and such...

If you can't buy the PDFs online what makes them think people will buy their books in stores? I don't see a connection.

I've heard complaints that D&D stuff has appeared on sharing sites for as long as I can remember, so why are they bothering to do it now? This spanks of childishness: is it nothing more than a temper tantrum?


Only saw the email a few hours before noon.
Tried but failed to download all of my pdfs that I've misplaced (e.g. failed hard drive last year had some) before the deadline - but servers seem to be pretty slow so only got some of them.
This is not good - part of the reason why I got pdfs in the first place is that I could download them when needed.
A few days notice would have been much more reasonable.

Sovereign Court Star Voter 2014

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
Pax Veritas wrote:

*seething consumer loathing*

Let it be said, that E.G.G.'s passing coincided with the advent of 4e, and Arneson's passing coincided with this night-time stormtrooper move to "turn-off" the legacy of our game. The universe is full of messages, if we only listen. One did not affect the other, but the synchronicity is amazing.

This is a sad day, as we have lost the co-creator of our game, and now cannot have our 30+ year history accessible as needed/desired from the company(s) we do trust and belive in.

This will NEVER be forgotten.

Thank you PAIZO for the gesture and nod of good leadership with your 35% off PDF sale. More important than the savings, is the comfort of knowing Arneson's/Gygax's legacy, our 30+ year legacy, and traditions are safely continued under your watch.

I did a quick search to see what happened...I see he was hospitalized a few days ago, but this is the first I've heard of his passing, can you confirm?

Confirmed.

Rest in peace Dave Arneson.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I read/got the email after the deadline.

No matter, I didn't have any wotc pdfs, mostly my free ones while being a Supersubscriber.

Sad news to hear & I feel for that guys that lost pdfs that were paid for. Just a crappy way to do buisness, Wiz. Very crappy!!

RM

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Pax Veritas wrote:
I did a quick search to see what happened...I see he was hospitalized a few days ago, but this is the first I've heard of his passing, can you confirm?

Confirmed.

Rest in peace Dave Arneson.

Sorry, reports are in error!

Dave Arneson is NOT deceased ... here's the latest I could find. Don't let the title fool you!


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Random crazy conspiracy #201: Maybe, just maybe, WoTC needs to choke off all legally available pre-4E materials, as those editions all compete with 4E, and take sales away from 4E? Meaning, as long as people can still legally obtain materials for previous editions, those people are NOT buying new stuff. It's like Microsoft competing against itself, they often say Microsofts biggest competitor is itself, meaning, there are a vast number of people out there who are perfectly happy with Windows 2000 (or XP, or Office 2000, or even 95 for that matter) that those people are not buying new materials. MS has to choke those people off of those prior editions in order to force them to get back on the "upgrade train" every X years. I see this as sort of the same thing. WoTC wants to choke off all legal ways of obtaining their prior edition materials. Sure, that only leaves the less than legal ways, but perhaps they are looking at it like "the people who are going to pirate are going to pirate no matter what (and probably already have), at least this way we might get 10% of the people who DO NOT pirate to upgrade (?) to 4E".

Ok, that's the end of my conspiracy theory, and admittedly I did not read all 300+ posts before mine so I readily accept this wondrously astute theory of mine has probably already been stated, ummm probably at least 30 times lol

Well, back to my Pathfinder books! (COME ON AUGUST!!!!)


OK, here's the reason. Having decided to concentrate on new, younger customers, Hasbro has figured out that they don't need to keep much of a staff at all. They'll simply take past materials, destroy parts of it, throw in a bunch of powers and disassociated mechanics, and republish the reworked old material with much of the same art and very little actual creative work. It wouldn't have worked with us older players, who'd be able to identify everything even if we bought into their new system. It also wouldn't have worked if the old material was out there for their current customer base to see, so they pulled the old pdfs. Just wait and see! They're to the penultimate step of their plan!


Anybody else feel like thinking that older editions are competing with the current one, is kind of like this ad.

Star Voter 2013, Star Voter 2014, Star Voter 2015

F*CK WoTC & F*CK 4E...

...and that's all I have to say about that.


bugleyman wrote:

F*CK WoTC & F*CK 4E...

...and that's all I have to say about that.

Welcome back, Bugleyman, even if this is just a fleeting visit! :)

Edit:
You may need to update your profile, if I understand your sentiments correctly.


pres man wrote:

Anybody else feel like thinking that older editions are competing with the current one, is kind of like this ad.

Its fine to disagree with the point of view. However any time you need to link to a 'funny' YouTube video rather than actually articulate your point of view.. you've already lost the argument.

I will grant you that it is premature to say that is what is going on.

However it is equally premature to say that it isn't happening either.

It comes down to whether WOTC will ever make those materials for sale ever again, even if under their stricter control.

You see, there's no good reason not to. So, instead of resorting to YouTube, trying exploring this from the other point of view.

If (because this has always been a hypothetical discussion) those materials are never ever made available again, what would it be besides fear of competition?

Silver Crusade Star Voter 2014

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules Subscriber

Happened across some lovely wallbangers throughout the day concerning yesterday's shenanigans. A few(read: few) people are actually blaming the stores for this, as if they were accomplices in all the piracy going on. *headdesk*

There's a more heartening thread on EN World concerning the stores though(find the Positive Side thread), encouraging people to go to DriveThruRPG, RPGNow, and Paizo and just make some small purchases, anything, to show those stores your support and solidarity.

Green Ronin showed off some awesome as well, offering True20 for 10 bucks and confirming that they value their pdf customers.

And of course there's the April deal here at Paizo.

Trying to bring forth some good vibes...(it doesn't help that Nekromantix's "Rot In Hell" is playing behind me at the moment)

Liberty's Edge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2012 , Star Voter 2013, Marathon Voter 2014

Watcher wrote:
pres man wrote:

Anybody else feel like thinking that older editions are competing with the current one, is kind of like this ad.

Its fine to disagree with the point of view. However any time you need to link to a 'funny' YouTube video rather than actually articulate your point of view.. you've already lost the argument.

I will grant you that it is premature to say that is what is going on.

However it is equally premature to say that it isn't happening either.

It comes down to whether WOTC will ever make those materials for sale ever again, even if under their stricter control.

You see, there's no good reason not to. So, instead of resorting to YouTube, trying exploring this from the other point of view.

If (because this has always been a hypothetical discussion) those materials are never ever made available again, what would it be besides fear of competition?

I'm tempted to give the benefit of the doubt and assume he's mocking WoTC/Hasbro for their (hypothetical) reasoning that older editions compete with 4E.


Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

Bugleyman returneth?


(edited, reworded)
I have yet to see any lengthy posts from Paizo about this business except to confirm a few facts regarding their arrangements with the PDFs.

I am guessing that there is a legal requirement that they not discuss or comment on how this has happened or what they would have liked to have done differently if they had had the opportunity.

My sympathy to Paizo, if you have been legally gagged with regard to explaining what has been going on these past couple of days; I am fairly certain you would give fuller explanations if you could. :(
(And even your enforced silence speaks volumes.)


Its going to be a very long time before the 1E & 2E stuff become public domain :-(

"Duration of copyright
Works created in or after 1978 are extended copyright protection for a term defined in 17 U.S.C. § 302. With the passage of the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act, these works are granted copyright protection for a term ending 70 years after the death of the author. If the work was a work for hire (e.g., those created by a corporation) then copyright persists for 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever is shorter."

There goes just waiting a few years and scanning it.


taig wrote:


I'm tempted to give the benefit of the doubt and assume he's mocking WoTC/Hasbro for their (hypothetical) reasoning that older editions compete with 4E.

Oh! ::bangs head:: If that is the case, please retract what I said Pres Man, my sarcasm detector must have failed.


Watcher wrote:
taig wrote:


I'm tempted to give the benefit of the doubt and assume he's mocking WoTC/Hasbro for their (hypothetical) reasoning that older editions compete with 4E.
Oh! ::bangs head:: If that is the case, please retract what I said Pres Man, my sarcasm detector must have failed.

Yeah, I was going for the whole idea of a WotC guy complaining that 1e pdf sales are "stealing money" from the company. Except they are the same company.

Real competition would be White Wolf, whose profits do not go back to WotC.

I still think this whole thing is an effort to get a quick infusion of cash. Whaaaa? Yeah, see, in a week or so (give time for the Nerd Rage to build force), WotC will "change their mind" and start selling the pdfs again. At that time people will purchase masses of pdfs out of fear that WotC will again take them off the market (it is the whole Disney Vault idea). Thus giving WotC a short term increase in revenues.

Or WotC could just be idiots.


Pathfinder Tales Subscriber
The 8th Dwarf wrote:

Its going to be a very long time before the 1E & 2E stuff become public domain :-(

"Duration of copyright
Works created in or after 1978 are extended copyright protection for a term defined in 17 U.S.C. § 302. With the passage of the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act, these works are granted copyright protection for a term ending 70 years after the death of the author. If the work was a work for hire (e.g., those created by a corporation) then copyright persists for 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever is shorter."

There goes just waiting a few years and scanning it.

This piece of crap legislation needs some serious repealing. Let's name the act that repeals it the Cher Act, just to add insult to injury.


Well, due to to time zone differences and a currently screwy sleeping pattern, I only got the Paizo e-mail a mere 50 minutes before the deadline. Panic and extreme fatigue do not make for the best reading comprehension, unfortunately!

So I bought a few older edition .pdf files, but I also spent an unnecessary $50 on various Dragon and Dungeon downloads. D'oh!

(Well, I would have bought the magazine downloads at a later date anyway, but I would have preferred to use that money on the now no longer available .pdf files. Sigh.)

What really annoys me is that WotC apparently did not give any advance warning. I could have bought so much more if I'd had the time to think clearly.

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