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WotC halts PDF sales


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Hey, you know what, this thread has probably broken some kind of record, being started only yesterday at 6:24 PM and already with over three hundred posts.

Andoran

Watcher wrote:
Heathansson wrote:
Everybody is a future fired customer.

Nice one!

In order to treat everyone equally, no one will be treated fairly.

I really wonder if it's an attempt to drum up a lot of attention somehow, along the lines of Janet Jackson's nip slip revitalizing the lich that was her career. Maybe all the interwebz b#*!$ing and moaning is good publicity. As Gene Simmons says, there is no such thing as bad publicity.

Osirion

Any publicity is good publicity?

Unless you're killing your customers...

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

Theris Nordo Ichka wrote:
Hey, you know what, this thread has probably broken some kind of record, being started only yesterday at 6:24 PM and already with over three hundred posts.

Naaa, go into the archives around Oct 07-March 08 in the 4E setion. Some of those went bananas fast. Very very fast, esp if the thread started on a friday.

Paizo Employee Developer

Theris Nordo Ichka wrote:
Hey, you know what, this thread has probably broken some kind of record, being started only yesterday at 6:24 PM and already with over three hundred posts.

I think the one when we all ranted about another WotC blunder, the original GSL, got bigger faster. Seems the biggest threads are those about cool new Paizo stuff like the PRPG announcement and ones about WotC screw-ups. Funny, that.


Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:

Any publicity is good publicity?

Unless you're killing your customers...

I guess it really depends on if it has an impact.

I mean, I'm looking around and there's a lot of fury right now. But will it stick?

I mean, I have been a die-hard Paizo fan since Pathfinder #1. I have also supported and played 4th Edition. Mr. Mona said he didn't mind so long as I was a Paizo Superscriber.

But will this really kill any customers that weren't already dead a long time ago?

I don't know.

****************

What I do know is that this has given me a negative impression of the company, if not the 4th Edition Game.

I have at least one group of players that likes Pathfinder RPG more than 4th Edition, if allowed to pick between the two.

I can't honestly say I'll stop supporting 4th Edition, but for all this was intended to stop the loss of revenue.. they've unsettled and annoyed this paying customer. Time will tell if that means anything.

Andoran

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:

Any publicity is good publicity?

Unless you're killing your customers...

If you kill one and get 20 that's just good business.

"Who do you work for?"

"A major automotive company."

Andoran

Personally I'm more pissed off that the Styes is now owned by WOTC and therefore possibly virtually dead, but at least Richard Pett isn't hanging in fetters in their dungeon.


Watcher wrote:
What I do know is that this has given me a negative impression of the company, if not the 4th Edition Game.

My negative impressions aren't towards the edition of the game in question - heck, I was trying to BUY PDFs of 2nd edition out of print products. My negativity is solely directed at the company.

I have no doubts that WotC will create some sort of online store. I have serious doubts as to whether older edition materials will be on there.


Watcher wrote:

But will this really kill any customers that weren't already dead a long time ago?

All I know is that once in a while I get this little voice in my head that says "Maybe I SHOULD buy some of the 4E books. Some of the stuff looks interesting." But just before I wash the bad taste of WoTC's previous disaster out of my mouth long enough to convince myself to give them some of my money again, they do something like this.

I think there are still plenty of customers that would be willing to come back to Wizards and/or embrace 4E if given enough time and enough good will. But when Wizards decides that all its customers are potential criminals and therefore must be preemitively punished, it's like Dick Cheney is running the company.

Taldor

Dragonchess Player wrote:

Wow...

Yet another ham-handed decision on the part of WotC (more probably Hasbro, IMO; this sounds too much like a "corporate HQ" bright idea). I wonder if this is just another way to try and sell their DI (Dungeon, Dragon, virtual tabletops, and now online access to classic TSR material)? My intuition tells me that this has more to do with poor subscriber numbers for the DI than loss of 4e sales...

Luckily for me, I already have pretty much everything I want of the old TSR/WotC stuff in either hardcopy or PDF (mostly hardcopy), since it's now too late to buy any more PDFs.

Same Here, but I place my bet on this.


Bardsandsages wrote:
Watcher wrote:

But will this really kill any customers that weren't already dead a long time ago?

All I know is that once in a while I get this little voice in my head that says "Maybe I SHOULD buy some of the 4E books. Some of the stuff looks interesting." But just before I wash the bad taste of WoTC's previous disaster out of my mouth long enough to convince myself to give them some of my money again, they do something like this.

I think there are still plenty of customers that would be willing to come back to Wizards and/or embrace 4E if given enough time and enough good will. But when Wizards decides that all its customers are potential criminals and therefore must be preemitively punished, it's like Dick Cheney is running the company.

Sounds like the answer is "yes" then.

It has killed off a customer that wasn't already dead. At least one. Maybe more?


Lilith wrote:


My negative impressions aren't towards the edition of the game in question - heck, I was trying to BUY PDFs of 2nd edition out of print products. My negativity is solely directed at the company.

I have no doubts that WotC will create some sort of online store. I have serious doubts as to whether older edition materials will be on there.

Probably not. Those older products are competition.

Let's explore an idea without conspiracy theory.

If the PHB2 sales were hurt by online torrenting, I can see a case for not selling 4E PDFs any more. At least the new ones that haven't been released yet, like Arcane Power.

But why get rid of the older PDFs? The ones that aren't being printed any longer? The ones that are likely to have been on the pirate sites for years now, already. Because selling those PDFs only generates revenue. They're not in print, and they're likely to already on the torrent sites. If you sell *any* of them, that's just extra pocket change. Bonus money. So why not?

Unless if you see them as competition with your new products.

It makes me wonder if "the tail is wagging the dog" here. If not, then this is just a great opportunity to get rid of the old PDFs with some semblance of justification.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

To Hell with WoTC. The last scrap of goodwill I had for that company was based on the fact that they were allowing the PDFs of older edition products, especially the out-of-print products, to remain available to consumers. To Hell with WoTC. To Hell with Hasbro. To Hell with that gawd-awful Hasbro Fantasy Role Play.

LONG LIVE PAIZO! LONG LIVE PATHFINDER! LONG LIVE THE FIGHTERS!
(er sorry, channeled a little Muad'Dib there)


The pursuit of 4th ed. infringements is understandable, but shutting down 1st-3.5 PDFs strikes me as being real lead here. With Pathfinder being backward compatible, WotC is looking to cut off the spigots for that kind of support.
On an aside, I only got the notice of this after midnight this morning, which is vexing, since I would have done some last minute shopping.

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

wow, this sucks. I just got the notice from Paizo around 4pm EST (crashed last night before it went out and ran to campus first thing this morning). Didn't lose anything here, but am out about 6 files of 1e/2e material from RPGDriveThru.

WotC has just proven they are the biggest asshats around.

Osirion

I can boycott companies for a LONG time...been 12 years since I've eaten McDonald's, and 15 years since I've been to a Wal-Mart...wonder how long I can boycott WotC?


Pathfinder Tales Subscriber

Just don't say "Paizo" while wearing your Weirding Module.


firbolg wrote:

The pursuit of 4th ed. infringements is understandable, but shutting down 1st-3.5 PDFs strikes me as being real lead here. With Pathfinder being backward compatible, WotC is looking to cut off the spigots for that kind of support.

On an aside, I only got the notice of this after midnight this morning, which is vexing, since I would have done some last minute shopping.

I got mine at 4AM. Luckily, I compulsively check the boards and saw this thread. It seems like Paizo even got late notice on this, which means they had to send out an email as quick as possible. With the size of the their database and server speeds, I'm shocked it got there even that fast.

Andoran

*sits back and chuckles comfy in his decision to never spend money with WotC again a year ago*

Care to join the unhooked generation?

Havent had any desire, nor will I have. Blunder after Blunder is what I see from that quarter.

Im a Pathfinder now ;)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
been 12 years since I've eaten McDonald's,

That's not a boycott - that's healthy living. ;)


lol

Just saw this on RPGNOW's front page.

To celebrate White Wolf's continuing devotion to PDF products, we'd like to offer all of our fans a one-time 10% discount on their next purchase of any White Wolf PDF titles through RPGNow.com. Simply enter the coupon code wwlovesyou to receive your discount! Also, White Wolf is offering a FREE download of the Exalted Second Edition rulebook! Both offers expire by midnight (EST) on Sunday, April 12th.

*reaches for credit card*

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bardsandsages wrote:

lol

Just saw this on RPGNOW's front page.

To celebrate White Wolf's continuing devotion to PDF products, we'd like to offer all of our fans a one-time 10% discount on their next purchase of any White Wolf PDF titles through RPGNow.com. Simply enter the coupon code wwlovesyou to receive your discount! Also, White Wolf is offering a FREE download of the Exalted Second Edition rulebook! Both offers expire by midnight (EST) on Sunday, April 12th.

*reaches for credit card*

Good for White Wolf! Hopefully they (along with Paizo) will take a nice big bite out of that Wizard's hindquarters.


Bardsandsages wrote:

lol

Just saw this on RPGNOW's front page.

To celebrate White Wolf's continuing devotion to PDF products, we'd like to offer all of our fans a one-time 10% discount on their next purchase of any White Wolf PDF titles through RPGNow.com. Simply enter the coupon code wwlovesyou to receive your discount! Also, White Wolf is offering a FREE download of the Exalted Second Edition rulebook! Both offers expire by midnight (EST) on Sunday, April 12th.

*reaches for credit card*

Got a link, I'm looking for it and I can't find it.

Osirion

viva la revolucion!!!

good for White Wolf...


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules Subscriber
Watcher wrote:

Probably not. Those older products are competition.

Let's explore an idea without conspiracy theory.

If the PHB2 sales were hurt by online torrenting, I can see a case for not selling 4E PDFs any more. At least the new ones that haven't been released yet, like Arcane Power.

But why get rid of the older PDFs? The ones that aren't being printed any longer? The ones that are likely to have been on the pirate sites for years now, already. Because selling those PDFs only generates revenue. They're not in print, and they're likely to already on the torrent sites. If you sell *any* of them, that's just extra pocket change. Bonus money. So why not?

Unless if you see them as competition with your new products.

Nod/agree/yup.

Osirion

On this side of class, Monte Cook just thanked people for buying pdfs. You can read the post on his livejournal (http://montecook.livejournal.com/). Very classy.


Boerngrim wrote:

To Hell with WoTC. The last scrap of goodwill I had for that company was based on the fact that they were allowing the PDFs of older edition products, especially the out-of-print products, to remain available to consumers. To Hell with WoTC. To Hell with Hasbro. To Hell with that gawd-awful Hasbro Fantasy Role Play.

LONG LIVE PAIZO! LONG LIVE PATHFINDER! LONG LIVE THE FIGHTERS!
(er sorry, channeled a little Muad'Dib there)

LONG LIVE PAIZO! LONG LIVE TROLL LORDS! LONG LIVE FAR FUTURE/QUICKLINK (current IP holders to Classic Traveller)! LONG LIVE (sigh... *even...*) PALLADIUM! LONG LIVE STEVE JACKSON! LONG LIVE JUDGES GUILD (the indie D&D supplement publihser too tough to die ;) )! LONG LIVE ROBERT J. KUNTZ! LONG LIVE THE MEMORY OF GARY GYGAX AND DAVE ARNESON!

DOWN WITH WIZARDS OF THE COAST!!!


Jeez, I'm so glad I'm DMing 3.5 - and ultimately Pathfinder. I like 4e, but I'm also glad I only play it. I pity the poor saps that DM it and are locked into the mad world of WotC.

When will these guys learn? A ripped copy is *not* a lost sale. It never was a sale in the first place. The vast majority of those who want to buy the product, buy the product. This will only hurt legitimate owners.

Either WotC haven't yet learned the lesson the music industry has, or it isn't the right reason - the right reason most likely being the killing off of everything pre-4e.

Well done, Paizo. A company that cares. Let's prove it can be done! ;)


Chris Pramas (Green Ronin) is offering a sale on True20 as well, I believe.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Boerngrim wrote:


LONG LIVE PAIZO! LONG LIVE PATHFINDER! LONG LIVE THE FIGHTERS!
(er sorry, channeled a little Muad'Dib there)

Our brand is a killing word.... :)


Watcher wrote:
Bardsandsages wrote:

lol

Just saw this on RPGNOW's front page.

To celebrate White Wolf's continuing devotion to PDF products, we'd like to offer all of our fans a one-time 10% discount on their next purchase of any White Wolf PDF titles through RPGNow.com. Simply enter the coupon code wwlovesyou to receive your discount! Also, White Wolf is offering a FREE download of the Exalted Second Edition rulebook! Both offers expire by midnight (EST) on Sunday, April 12th.

*reaches for credit card*

Got a link, I'm looking for it and I can't find it.

It was on the front page at rpgnow.com. Once of the rotating message ads on the front page.

http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=1&filters=0_0_0_0

At checkout, enter the code.

Osirion

Bardsandsages wrote:
Watcher wrote:
Bardsandsages wrote:

lol

Just saw this on RPGNOW's front page.

To celebrate White Wolf's continuing devotion to PDF products, we'd like to offer all of our fans a one-time 10% discount on their next purchase of any White Wolf PDF titles through RPGNow.com. Simply enter the coupon code wwlovesyou to receive your discount! Also, White Wolf is offering a FREE download of the Exalted Second Edition rulebook! Both offers expire by midnight (EST) on Sunday, April 12th.

*reaches for credit card*

Got a link, I'm looking for it and I can't find it.

It was on the front page at rpgnow.com. Once of the rotating message ads on the front page.

http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=1&filters=0_0_0_0

At checkout, enter the code.

Nope not seeing it


Heh...

That's okay. I just realized that its probably tacky to ask about a promotion being held at another online RPG vendor.

Lol

I was mostly curious just to see it.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Watcher wrote:

.

But why get rid of the older PDFs? The ones that aren't being printed any longer? The ones that are likely to have been on the pirate sites for years now....
Unless if you see them as competition with your new products.

It makes me wonder if "the tail is wagging the dog" here. If not, then this is just a great opportunity to get rid of the old PDFs with some semblance of justification.

1e campaigns are a threat to 4e?

people are just rounding out their collections
money not spent for "Keep on the Boarderlands" isn't going to be spent on 4ePHB.

Andoran

Erik Mona wrote:
Boerngrim wrote:


LONG LIVE PAIZO! LONG LIVE PATHFINDER! LONG LIVE THE FIGHTERS!
(er sorry, channeled a little Muad'Dib there)
Our brand is a killing word.... :)

[*Creepy little girl voice*]"He IS the Qwizats Haderach!"[/*Creepy little girl voice*]


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mandisaw wrote:

Copied over from this aborted parallel thread:

mandisaw wrote:
As for the decision itself, most likely WotC wants to sell their PDF products on some offshoot of their own site, or make some kind of exclusive deal with a single electronic retailer. I recall from the same survey that asked about DDI in Jan/Feb, they asked if subscribers would like discounts on D&D PDFs (much as we get with PF subscriptions). So maybe they're now acting on that info.

Quite frankly, although this announcement sucks as-is, I think the next step for Wizards should be to compile & organize their past publications in conveniently bundled PDFs and sell them themselves. More importantly than getting the larger revenue share, it would create an effective bottleneck for getting D&D PDFs that they could use to (a) digitally mark all sold copies, like Paizo does, (b) create/maintain a cohesive customer base, that they could market whatever they want to, directly, and (c) perhaps incorporate some of that older material in useful digital tools (Who wouldn't want a searchable, indexed database of all past adventures/modules/guidebooks/etc.?).

But I have no idea if WotC actually would do all that. It's just what *I'd* do if I ran the zoo.

Frankly, some variation on this seems fairly likely to me. I wouldn't be surprised if an exclusivity deal or contract with a specific outlet is in the offing to evade the expenses of being an online retailer themselves.

But perhaps it's just me waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Something in me just expects there's just got to be another shoe.

It can't be just a jerk-move of 'Hah, now you have to go 4E because we're taking away all your old TSR stuff!'

There has to be more to it when they toss Paizo, DrivethruRPG, and Ama-*Freaking*-zon to the curb. You don't mess with Amazons.

I'm just remembering the stuff they did just prior to the 4E announcement, not renewing all their liscences from Paizo, White Wolf, the Dragonlance folks, etc.


chopswil wrote:


1e campaigns are a threat to 4e?
people are just rounding out their collections
money not spent for "Keep on the Boarderland" isn't going to be spent on 4ePHB.

You're only looking at that post in isolation, Chopswil, and losing the context of the ongoing conversation.

Back up and read the exchange between Lilith and I.

Now.. If and when WOTC opens their own online store, and you're able to buy Keep on the Borderland - then you're absolutely right. It wasn't much of a threat. And hence you're able to buy it. I will, in that instance, concede the point to you.

Now what if you're not able to buy that PDF ever again? What would your rationale be for that? Other than getting rid of possible competition to your current product line.

You get that we're speaking hypothetical here?

Also, 1st Edition Keep On the Borderlands is an extreme example. Try using some of their more recent 3.5 books instead and the hypothetical isn't nearly so far out there.


Jared Ouimette wrote:
um something which will probably get deleted

Careful there...

President, Jon Brazer Enterprises

The code worked for me (currently downloading Changeling and some Exalted stuff).


Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:
I can boycott companies for a LONG time...been 12 years since I've eaten McDonald's, and 15 years since I've been to a Wal-Mart...wonder how long I can boycott WotC?

Its been a long time since I went to an Exxon too.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

veector wrote:
Jared Ouimette wrote:
um something which will probably get deleted
Careful there...

Indeed. We don't have a lot of rules on the board, but one of them is this:

Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them.

Cheliax

veector wrote:
Jared Ouimette wrote:
um something which will probably get deleted
Careful there...

Your telling me they'll come all the way out to Iraq to arrest me? Fine, but its a 27 hour flight.

Cheliax

Vic Wertz wrote:
veector wrote:
Jared Ouimette wrote:
um something which will probably get deleted
Careful there...

Indeed. We don't have a lot of rules on the board, but one of them is this:

Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them.

Vic, I faithfully buy your material. That's all I have to say.


Drakli wrote:


It can't be just a jerk-move of 'Hah, now you have to go 4E because we're taking away all your old TSR stuff!'

It's an interesting question for sure.

You might be right!
Time will tell.

However, I remember when the D20* licensing got pulled (but the OGL could not, obviously). Scott Rouse defended the decision as best he could. "Hey, we spent six figures making this new 4th Edition, you can't begrudge the fact that we'd like to sell it as much as possible."

Now that's a paraphrase, but it's not far off the mark.

_____________
* And if I have my terminology off, someone please correct me. There was a license that could and was revoked. If you had the old logo, your product hadto be sold within a certain time or have the logo removed. That is the license I am referring to.. and Scott Rouse's comments were concerning that and the new 4th Edition.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

And we appreciate your business, Jared! Thanks for being a faithful (and legal!) supporter of our publishing efforts!

Taldor

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:
veector wrote:
Jared Ouimette wrote:
um something which will probably get deleted
Careful there...

Indeed. We don't have a lot of rules on the board, but one of them is this:

Do not advocate illegal activities or discuss them with intent to commit them.

What if one had already purchased a PDF (or multiple PDFs for that matter) of the material in question and now find themselves with out access to their legally obtained and paid for merchandise?

It strikes me that WotC has, in effect, committed some form of larceny by denying legal customers accessibility to their legally purchased materials.

Just my 2 cents and in no way meant to be interpreted as condoning illegal activities. By the Paizo faithful or the heathen behemoth know as WotC.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

There is another company making a special sale for PDFs: PDFLove

Andoran

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

That's the one Watcher. Monte Cook was working on putting up a 3rd Era license for people to use so they could continue publishing their products.

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