RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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We'll be continuing with HTBM this week (delays due to illness & work). When we left it the Wyvern had just wrecked and the party were waking up on the beach with a hungry Tyrannosaurus in front of them.
Since that session there has been a lot of email traffic about how they could avoid the railroad. We've had the "AP not a campaign" discussion and that's okay now.
The next problem... they have a few scrolls of Rope Trick and keep the passengers in there in time of danger!
If I kill off most of the passengers they'll walk to Farshore.
If they're alive then all efforts will be made to repair the ship.
So... let's say I prefer to have the passengers mostly wiped out. The ones that were helping in the storm I can explain away - are more hands on deck a good idea in a severe storm? Because that would clinch it.
If, on the other hand, they were safely locked in a Rope Trick - what would happen if, say, the area around the Rope Trick flooded and the door was opened?
Perhaps there is some dimensional glitch because of the influence of Demogorgon and the abyss on the island, and rope tricks do not work as normal. You could do all kinds of things with this:
1) There is a planar bleed leeking into the extradimensional space and small demons keep coming through into the rope trick (just enough to keep the NPC's alive, but scare them, so that they do not want to stay in the rope trick anymore.
2) The rope trick works, but the exit does not remain where it is. It shifts to another location on the island, so that the NPC's when they come out of it, are in the middle of the jungle on the Isle of Dread and the PC's have to organize search parties.
3) The rope trick lasts longer or shorter than normal.
4) The planar bleed does not come from the abyss, but from the elemental plane of water and water is slowly leaking in. When the PCs open the rope trick, the NPCs are just with their heads above the water.
When using these ideas you have to consider whether your players will accept them, as they might be seen as railroading. That is up to you to decide, since you know your players best.
Keep in mind that while a rope trick may be opened while inside a ship, the extradimensional space does not move with the ship. So unless the PCs cast the spell as the ship is crashing on shore, (unlikely since the ship is destroyed before that) the window on the rope trick will open up over (or perhaps in) open ocean water.
... they have a few scrolls of Rope Trick and keep the passengers in there in time of danger! ... let's say I prefer to have the passengers mostly wiped out.
Keep in mind that, unless they've purposefully purchased scrolls at higher level than the default, then the Rope Trick scrolls last only 3 hours (CL2). So that will only protect the passengers for a little while after each casting. And each spell only holds eight passengers, so they might have to cast multiple spells to protect all the passengers. So if they land on the beach and use the rope tricks to protect the passengers whenever the jungle creatures attack them while they're making repairs, you can make it so they run out of rope tricks long before they're ready for sail.
Also, the passengers can't all get into the extradimensional space instantaneously...they each have to climb up the rope, one at a time, so they is plenty of opportunity for them to be picked off while they're all trying to scramble up the rope. And if the passengers are all helping with the repairs, most of them won't be near the rope trick at the time of the casting. Some may even be in the jungle harvesting timber for ship repairs. It seems like killing them off should be fairly easy.
Trying to drown the passengers safely hidden away in the Rope Trick will probably look a bit too much like railroading to your players, especially if they've already complained about it during the last game.
Now I am reading this, I get a picture of pteranodons attacking people dangling on a rope while climbing into the rope trick...
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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Hmmm, it's the (non)movement of the extradimensional space that's the issue then. They've sort of assumed the caster can 'anchor' it and it's never came up before, so bringing it up now just to off the passengers is probably a bit much. Thanks, you lot.
I guess I'll let them live... for now! Their next move is to break out the spare mast, summon hordes of unseen servants and use their carpentry skills and lots of magic to fix the ship. I guess I'll be combining HTBM with TOD now. Sigh.
Carb, oh why didn’t you go for the switcheroo (Finding the Nixie beached)? Never mind, that’s just water over the deck.
Aron is right – at this point, if you’ve already had tension about the railroading, you must be very careful about how you proceed. I have to admit that I have not really bought into the argument that an “adventure path” gives free license to the DM to railroad. I don’t see how players will NOT cry foul. I mean, from what you say, it almost sounds like there is no reason you shouldn’t just say, “The adventure path has you walking to Farshore. You have to walk to Farshore now.” I’m not seriously suggesting you do that, I’m just making an illustration.
I think you are focusing on the wrong aspect of the scenario. You are trying to think of how to kill off the crew. Instead, you should be thinking of how to convince them that fixing the boat isn’t going to work at this stage. For one thing, they have no tar. Later on, on of the TOD tasks involves collecting tar. Either now or later, they need tar and any shipbuilding skill they have will tell them that. There has to come a point where somebody says, “We’ve done all we can do, but this boat just won’t float without being sealed with pitch.” Then, even if they don’t decide to head far Farshore, they will have to go questing for tar, and they still end up wandering into Olangru country. Plus, they’ll either have to leave the crew unattended or bring them along. Either way makes them vulnerable.
Also, I don’t see any reason why there couldn’t be masher attacks or a guest appearance by a certain dragon turtle. Either the ship takes more damage, or they realize they just can’t stay there with “the monster(s)” in the water. They’d be higher level when they return and can kill the icky-bad.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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TAR!
You're a genius! Thanks mate! I was planning on the switcheroo until a player said, "I bet Lavinia's shipwrecked and we have to go rescue her." as they escaped the Sargasso. After that I hit them with Emraag and we finished the night with a brief storm/ shipwreck/ Tyrannosaurus on the table to set up the next sesion for a "Roll Initiative" beginning.
I knew I shouldn't have rushed it, but I had the TRex in my bag and so wanted to get the Isle introduced that night. The amount of buts and what if's in the car on the way home ... oops.
Did I say "TAR!" yet? Hooray!
Say, Troy, when's your next update? I can't wait!
Do not forget to reward them in some way for the repairs already made to the ship. You should give them some kind of bonus for that when they reach TOD. Then they will probably feel less railroaded.
Good luck! I am curious how this will turn out. My campaign is approaching this dreaded moment soon.
TAR! You're a genius! Thanks mate!
Carb, you flatter me. Thank you. In all fairness, I just tend towards laziness and like to find the simplest answer.
I was planning on the switcheroo until a player said, "I bet Lavinia's shipwrecked and we have to go rescue her." as they escaped the Sargasso. After that I hit them with Emraag and we finished the night with a brief storm/ shipwreck/ Tyrannosaurus on the table to set up the next sesion for a "Roll Initiative" beginning.
Yeah, I can see that. I have warned my players many times to be careful what they say at the table. Sometimes I get my best ideas from their expressed fears. Other times, I do as you did, and change something so it doesn’t seem predictable.
I knew I shouldn't have rushed it, but I had the TRex in my bag and so wanted to get the Isle introduced that night. The amount of buts and what if's in the car on the way home ... oops.
Getting the T-Rex out as a “cliffhanger” is a great idea. I did the same thing.
Did I say "TAR!" yet? Hooray!
Yes, you did, but I’m glad to have made you so happy, chum.
Say, Troy, when's your next update? I can't wait!
We haven’t played for several weeks – so it’s not MY fault. I have one player who has had life and health issues and, initially, the other players wanted to wait for him, but when he begged off for tomorrow night, I just told them I’m pressing on. I was flattered that the group thought so highly of HTBM to think it important to hold up the ending of it for one guy, but there comes a point when you just have to move on. After all, that’s what the blog was originally for – for when a player can’t make it, so he can keep up with the story. Besides, as I tell them often, we have fans to consider, too! Like that nutty guy with the fake beard in Finland or wherever .
And, speaking of updates (I know we’re getting way off topic), I am keeping up with those Lidu Diaries for Guy and we are probably getting to a point where a “volume 2” will need to be uploaded. Maybe after his next update.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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LOL - it was a Heaven & Hell party and I'd just got back from Morocco with a white djelleba!
The moving rope trick is bugging me - I remember having trouble with it back when Rowyn was hiding on board. I dug up the thread and Heathensson mentioned, in all his wisdom, that if it was a fixed point in time and space, you'd exit in interstellar space. Or in Realmspace in my case.
The moving rope trick is bugging me - I remember having trouble with it back when Rowyn was hiding on board. I dug up the thread and Heathensson mentioned, in all his wisdom, that if it was a fixed point in time and space, you'd exit in interstellar space. Or in Realmspace in my case.
The moving Rope Trick issue has been bugging me too. I read _somewhere_ official that one couldn't use it on board a ship, as the ship would then sail on from that point on the planet's surface. (Presumably the planet's gravity well/think-of-your-own-reason will anchor the point on its surface, so that you're not left behind on the orbital path around the sun.) I tried the 3.5 FAQ, but found nothing on that point. So where was it, and who wrote it???
The moving rope trick is bugging me - I remember having trouble with it back when Rowyn was hiding on board. I dug up the thread and Heathensson mentioned, in all his wisdom, that if it was a fixed point in time and space, you'd exit in interstellar space. Or in Realmspace in my case.The moving Rope Trick issue has been bugging me too. I read _somewhere_ official that one couldn't use it on board a ship, as the ship would then sail on from that point on the planet's surface. (Presumably the planet's gravity well/think-of-your-own-reason will anchor the point on its surface, so that you're not left behind on the orbital path around the sun.) I tried the 3.5 FAQ, but found nothing on that point. So where was it, and who wrote it???
I’m new to this particular issue, but I’d like to offer some perspective if I might.
First, official or not, I think whatever you decide has to make sense in your world. So, I’d love to see anything official anyone might find, for curiosity sake, but I think I can resolve this, at least for my group, quite easily.
Again, this is just my opinion and how it’s going to work in my world.
EVERYTHING is relative. If the opening is a “fixed point in space,” then what is it “fixed” in relation to? The caster? The ship? The world? The solar system (assuming such a thing applies in your setting)? The universe? Let’s put the later choices aside. That kind of scope is just too big to fathom, and then you have to start defining the cosmology of your entire campaign world for just one spell – that’s absurd.
So, let’s go back to the “spirit” of the spell. Like so much of D&D, this spell is inspired by real-world mythology; in this case, the famous Indian Rope Trick. The trick is purported to be a stage illusion. This would infer that the frame of reference is literally the stage. One would imagine that if the illusion were performed on a cruise ship, the rope and the alleged dimensional door would move with the stage along with the ship.
One is tempted to think of the rope as the focal point, but that doesn’t work when the rope is pulled up into the dimensional rift. In the accounts of the Indian Rope Trick, I’ve never seen an account of the rope being pulled up, only tugged back down after someone has disappeared. So, I could be persuaded to allow a caster in my game to throw up the rope, have someone climb up and then pull the rope back, effectively stowing the person away. Then the caster could walk somewhere else, throw the rope up again (possibly a second casting of the spell?) and extract the person in the new location. However, I don’t feel this could be used by the caster for “teleporting” himself. One he pulls the rope up after himself, he can only then emerge from the same location he entered – be that above a stage, between those two trees, etc.
Which brings us back to the question “Is it the boat or the ocean that is the frame of reference?” Again, I refer to the example of the stage on the cruise ship. The casters environment is the ship. He is hiding from someone or something on the ship or that he believes may board the ship. He climbs the rope on the ship and expects to emerge in the same place on the ship (again, “spirit” of the spell).
One more argument for why the spell moves with the ship. If the spell is cast while the boat is in motion – let’s say 7 knots (a good clip for a sailboat) – the rope is thrown up and someone starts to climb, are seen to be remaining stationary while the ship moves around them? If they are halfway into the dimensional rift when it passes through the hull (assuming it’s cast while they are below deck) are they bisected? Certainly not. I can see a comical application of that, though, with the caster tossing up the rope, it becomes fixed in space, and the caster and ship begin pulling away. The caster, who is holding the rope, begins to get rope burns until he grabs firmly and is dragged to the back of ship, crashing through the rail to be left dangling from the rope calling out for help.
The one big problem with this is that players are very creative. What if for example they decide to take a closed wagon along with a rope trick inside? Or a huge box? Or even a tent? Or some construction providing shade such as a palanquin on top of a horse saddle?
When they are high enough level, rope trick will last a long time, and with two or three castings they could theoretically make an enormous bag of holding and take it along. So consider whether you want the rope trick moving. And consider what is still a space in which you can cast a rope trick and what isn't.
And that is just one of the things that comes to my mind when thinking of a moving rope trick. Usually players are even much more creative. I know my players will come up with something like that.
But if you find that acceptable, then go ahead. Just consider the rope trick will always be movable in your campaign, and players will probably make use of it.
Good points, all. This isn’t a rebuttal – just “thinking out loud.”
While I see the point about the box, covered wagon, etc., I think I would rule that you need to have at least 15 or 20 feet above you – enough room to throw the rope up and have some climbing room (actually, this could be really important if you are trying to make a “quick escape”).
I discussed this matter with my group last night and one of the guys postulated, based on my “cut in half” comment, that below deck a rope trick would move with the boat, but above deck – a space open to the sky – the world becomes the “container” or anchoring focus for the opening, so the boat would move away from it. I see that point, too.
Actually, here is a really nasty idea: If you, the caster, does a rope trick and climb up into it, you can pull the rope up and emerge later – but the anchor is random (really, DM decides), so you might come out above the ship that has moved 20 knots from where you entered, or you might emerge in the same spot over the ocean with no boat in site. It’s a chance you take.
Here’s an even nastier one – inspired by the SciFi network’s miniseries, The Lost Room: You cast rope trick and you let others climb up into it. You pull back the rope, sealing them safely inside. But now they’re lost. You throw the rope back up and you create a new dimensional pocket.
But wait, you say. The occupants can pull the rope up to them. I argue, not unless the caster is with them. If they pull the rope up, they cannot reopen it to emerge because they are not the caster.
Okay, when the spell duration expires, you could be nice and say the occupants are dumped back into real space, I suppose. That’s not as much fun, though.
I like the tar idea the best, if you haven't gone into much detail on the surroundings though you might use what I did: storm surge. Hurricanes raise the water level along the shore so that boats are swept up on land. A storm surge makes it impossible to get the ship into the water until another storm comes along(not necessarily as big as the one that wrecked them) or they use magic/ingenuity.
Your party might abandon the Sea Wyvern entirely, like mine did, but it didn't alter the course of the campaign really. The found other ways of getting through the pirate invasion. We didn't play long enough for them to need it again to get to Scuttlecove, but I'm sure there would have been other ship options by that point anyway.
Good idea. I will remember the storm surge for the moment my PCs will get there.
The one big problem with this is that players are very creative. What if for example they decide to take a closed wagon along with a rope trick inside? Or a huge box? Or even a tent? Or some construction providing shade such as a palanquin on top of a horse saddle?
W...
Rope trick came up for us last week as the caster got swallowed whole. He has the concentration to cast the spell while grappled and can wait out the acid/gullet damage a little safer. (technically he could then use the space to cast other spells without concentrating (magic missile)). The question arose when the T-rex charged someone else where did the caster come out. Could he pop out for free once the surroundings had moved? Would he be dumped in the gut once the spell wore off? Would the T-Rex be anchored in a 'fixed place'?
I forget the size of the space made, but I ruled that the object it was fixed to (the T-Rex versus the beach) had to be bigger than the size of the space. (and he stayed in the gut).
I think you made the right choice about making it fixed inside the creatures gullet, Curaigh, but I don't follow the thign about casting Magic Missiles. If he opens the "trick" space while inside the beast, he should take at least spash dammage as the acid enters.
I think you made the right choice about making it fixed inside the creatures gullet, Curaigh, but I don't follow the thign about casting Magic Missiles. If he opens the "trick" space while inside the beast, he should take at least spash dammage as the acid enters.
Thanks, Yeah I did not go into all the details. One could poke out just their head or hand and cast magic missile, leaving most (cover?) of their body still protected. Yes there would be some damage, but cover would minimize it. The argument was made (and dropped) that acid damage happens on the T-rex's turn and the magic missile happens on the players turn.
player: What?? He readied his digestion attack?
me: Yes, he has the readied a special digest attack even though he is attacking others with big teeth feat.
player: There is no such feat, I should not take damage right?
me: He took it as his ninth level of sorcerer
player: Sorcerer levels?!?
me: and barbarian or can we move on with the game...
OK it was not that bad O:)
Grr! I just got rid of a player that played like that! It’s not an attack, readied or otherwise. You’re going to tell me you’re –let’s say - sealed in a giant Ziploc bag inside a big creature’s stomach. If you open that Ziploc, you explain how you have “partial cover” from the acid. Stick your hand out and you definitely take damage – automatic, and it causes Dexterity loss as your hand melts. Come on! Just the fact that the DM is allowing the casting of Rope Trick inside a creature should be enough. It’s an escape; a place to hide. You can’t be completely safe AND attack.
Sorry, Curaigh. It’s not you I’m arguing with. I’m just venting smoke from another fire. If you want to get technical, I don’t really get why stomach acid does ANY damage. If you were really swallowed whole by a creature (assuming it doesn’t bite or chew), you’d suffocate before the acid did anything more than irritate your skin. It takes hours for stomach acid to have any substantial impact on flesh, and days for a body to be completely digested.
Continuing minor threadjack: Sometimes I think the acid damage of swallow whole is meant more as a sort of anti-troll ecological niche thing, than an actual nod at realism.
I agree, going straight into "suffocation" mechanics seems like an interesting (and potentially deadly) alternate mechanic. Revalues items like the Periapt of Health, for the constant sheath of air around you.
I may have to put this to my group, as a possible house rule.
It is probably done because most PCs have more protection against suffocation than against acid. Acid is sort of a "forgotten" damage type most players do not buy/use protection against. Especially at high levels it is often one of the damage types that still works, so swallow whole can still be dangerous at high levels.
I have had some fun with that in a previous campaign which ran into epic levels. In one of the adventures the party was subjected to a chaos ritual with all kinds of chaotic effects. They were transported back in time and ended up in the stomach of the tarrasque. That was a very memorable encounter, and great fun to run.
This is interesting, about the rope trick use.
My ruling if a player tried these ideas would be to praise their ingenuity but then tell them "no", specifically for the swallow whole reason.
I totally love the idea of using a rope trick spell to escape being swallowed whole, (of course casting it before or while swallowed is another topic) but I would not say the monster gives them a free ride someplace else.
Of course, I'm talking about the 3E version. And I just reread the spell and nowhere does it give me the sense that the extradimensional space moves. That's the kicker, for me at least. Also consider it is a 2nd level spell. Perhaps "Improved Rope Trick" would move around.
I just thought of another interesting possible ramification of this spell.
Again, consider that the “spirit” of the spell is as I outline it above. The original conception of the spell never intended that it would move – it’s a point in space. So, essentially, there is nothing there TO move. The question comes if a rope is dangling out (or a body part).
So what about this: Part of the magic that maintains the integrity of the spell (i.e. eliminates possibly grizzly occurrences) is that, if the portal is open at all, regardless of whether something is in it or hanging from it or not (after all, the very air is “hanging out of it”) it is rigidly fixed – otherwise it would tear open the fabric of reality or some such. Nobody notices or cares when the spell is cast on a stage or in a town square, but when it’s cast inside a creature, that creature cannot move because the contents of his stomach – this extradimentional portal, is stuck fast.
Of course, that means that the spell cast on deck of a ship leaves one dangling form the rope as the ship moves away, or a huge hole in the stern of the ship if cast below deck.
You realize, of course, this is a fun thought exercise, but ultimately, when a discussion generates this much speculation, the DM just has to say, “This is how the spell works,” and “No, that doesn’t work,” or “Yes, that’s fine.” When the player asks why, the answer is “That’s just how the spell works. It’s magic. Moving on…” Translation: Rule 0.
So you have to answer the question with a question: What does the DM want to happen? The answer to that question answers both questions.
Grr! I just got rid of a player that played like that! It’s not an attack, readied or otherwise. You’re going to tell me you’re –let’s say - sealed in a giant Ziploc bag inside a big creature’s stomach. If you open that Ziploc, you explain how you have “partial cover” from the acid. Stick your hand out and you definitely take damage – automatic, and it causes Dexterity loss as your hand melts. Come on! Just the fact that the DM is allowing the casting of Rope Trick inside a creature should be enough. It’s an escape; a place to hide. You can’t be completely safe AND attack.
Sorry, Curaigh. It’s not you I’m arguing with. I’m just venting smoke from another fire. If you want to get technical, I don’t really get why stomach acid does ANY damage. If you were really swallowed whole by a creature (assuming it doesn’t bite or chew), you’d suffocate before the acid did anything more than irritate your skin. It takes hours for stomach acid to have any substantial impact on flesh, and days for a body to be completely digested.
hehe no offense taken. O:)
I always take tangents like that and end them by making it more difficult for the players. IMHO if it is challenging it is fun, if it is not challenging you will get bored. If you are clever and come up with an easy way to defeat something, good for you. but if I get bored not good for you. I am going to add something to make it interesting again. My personal Rule 0 if you will: fun comes first.
hmmm to go back to your partially out of rope-trick scenario. I would probably rule that the T-rex (ship, Tarrasque, earth) gets to make a grapple check to pull you out of the extra dim space.
hmmm to go back to your partially out of rope-trick scenario. I would probably rule that the T-rex (ship, Tarrasque, earth) gets to make a grapple check to pull you out of the extra dim space.
I once tried to grapple the earth. I was very drunk at the time. The earth won.