The PCs do what?!

[Whimsy Chris]

The following is based on the outline and therefore contains...

Spoiler:

It sounds like the PCs release the main villain, probably out of ignorance. Perhaps there is much more to it than that, but I usually don't care for adventures where sometimes it feels things would have been better if they had just left well enough alone. Sure, in real life people make mistake that have dire consequences, but in heroic D&D, I like to think the PCs are overall doing good for the world. What's the point of the PCs getting the Scroll of Kakishon if they are going to release what's inside anyways?

Otherwise this APs sounds great and I can't wait to view the Arabian style in Golarian. However, could someone clear up this aspect of the adventure?

[elnopintan]

I suppose that we have to wait till the adventure but I suppose it could be easy to arrange the events to make some NPC what you don't want your players do.

[delabarre]

Spoiler:

You could rearrange the end of #21 so that the villain activates the Scroll while the PCs are present, but before they defeat him.

[Jason Nelson]

delabarre wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

I believe the intention of the AP is...

Spoiler:

... that the PCs open up the map under the mistaken belief that there is a secret something inside that will help them defeat the ones they believe are their main foes - that there would be something or someone ELSE bad inside the map that might be a bigger danger is intended to be a surprise.

That said, I only wrote adventure #4 in the AP, which happens after the map is opened. I don't actually know any details of the setup of how the PCs acquire the map and how or why they are motivated to use it.

[Davelozzi]

Spoiler:

Whimsy Chris wrote:

It sounds like the PCs release the main villain, probably out of ignorance.

Sounds like a tip of the hat to one of D&D's most classic desert adventure series...

Spoiler:

At the beginning of the Desert of Desolation series (aka I3 Pharaoh, I4 Oasis of the White Palm & I5 Lost Tomb of Martek) the heroes release an efreet noble that is pretty much the main villain of the trilogy, if I remember correctly.

[James Jacobs]

While it's true that...

Spoiler:

...the adventure expects the PCs to release the big bad guy, we understand that hinging the start of an adventure on a specific action by a player character is a TERRIBLE bit of game design. When it works, it's really cool, because it makes the PCs feel like they're driving the plot and not on a railroad. When it doesn't work, the opposite occurs.

In Adventure #4, we'll have a fair amount of advice on how to start the adventure if the PCs don't trigger it. In a 2-page outline, we don't have time to give out all of those details.

[Mactaka]

James Jacobs wrote:

While it's true that...

** spoiler omitted **

That's good to hear (the spoiler info) since that was my main concern after reading the outline too..that and Wish-mania

[James Jacobs]

Mactaka wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

While it's true that...

** spoiler omitted **

That's good to hear (the spoiler info) since that was my main concern after reading the outline too..that and Wish-mania

Keep in mind that the final Legacy of Fire Adventure path, with all its support articles and bestiaries, is going to cover almost 550 pages of material. There's only so much we can cover in a 2-page version of that.

[Drakli]

To be fair, the plot element of the hero accidentally releasing the djinni from the bottle or opening Pandora's Box only to discover he really really shouldn't have is kind of traditional. It's not a new way Paizo came up with, the other day over lunch, for DMs to torment PCs. It's registered, it has a pedigree. At least one story in Arabian Nights actually uses it (where a murderous djinni escaped from entrapment turns on his "Master" and has to be re-imprisoned.) In most of these stories, the hero(s) prove themselves to be worthy and heroic by taking responsibility for their actions even though it puts them in grim, grim danger.

Most players should recognize a plot hook rather than a 'neener-neener, I got you!' when they see it, particularly if it happens early enough it's obvious this is what the Bad Thing that drives the Adventure Path is. Mostly, what it requires is that the DM not be a jerk about it.

... That said, I found Second Darkness to have a pretty fair amount of heavy handed plotline that depended on the PCs making a specific choice, or being manipulated into a particular course of action (and sometimes then punishing them for it.) I've never found PCs to be that predictable... or trusting... so... be careful of that this time around, please, Paizo writers? ^-^

[Charles Evans 25]

Hmm.

Spoiler:

Legacy of Fire AP Preview (The Jackal's Price) wrote:

...When Father Jackal’s agents steal the scroll and abduct the PC’s ally...

In the preview this comes over as if it could be pretty railroady to me. It's the sort of thing which handled badly will at least lead to questions of 'why do we have allies, given that they keep getting kidnapped?'; I'm assuming here that the premise is that the ally has the scroll at the same time as he/she gets kidnapped which whilst it avoids the much worse 'the enemies steal an item from your PCs directly and there's nothing that the PCs can do about it', does leave the players wondering how they could have been so stupid as to leave so valuable an item with an NPC weak enough to be robbed blind and abducted like that? For that matter, if an item is suspected to be so valuable, I suspect some groups of players/PCs won't let it out of their sight, even if it means standing guard-duty over the person researching it.

Is there any chance of an alternative plotline where the PCs hear about an item which is needed to make the scroll work, which Father Jackal has? For that matter even an attempt to kidnap the sage and steal the scroll whilst the PCs are there, which the PCs beat off, might be enough to lead the PCs to either get out of town very fast, or go after the person responsible.
Although the absence of a 'rescue an ally' hook, may incline some groups to simply get out of Katapesh as fast as possible, at least to regroup, rather than tangle with 'one of that city's most notorious criminals'.
Problems, problems, problems....

Edit:
And what Drakli said, too.
Please be careful.

[Turin the Mad]

I suspect that the LoF AP has already been wholly scripted by this point in time, with perhaps the final chapter being sent to the printer about now-ish. Ideally the LoF will avoid the critiques that have been posted about 2D, but at this point I rather suspect that what's been written has largely been completed, edited, typeset, artworkified & mapped up, for good or ill. They are making their way back to Paizo's warehouse by the slow boats from China month by month as the discussions of 2D and LoF are held.

What I expect is occurring now: The PFRPG AP - the one starting after LoF I believe - scripts are being written / farmed out to be written as soon as they finish up a usable 'final rules set' for both the Bestiary and the Core Book itself. The Bestiary has probably already been tied up and sent off given Paizo's oft-stated time lines to get from finished product (at their end) to released-for-retail product, so the Main Book is only a month or so from being packed up and sent off to its printer.

Lisa (Paizo CEO Lisa) had earlier commented that they are already ordering stuff for 2010 release.

Just speculatin'...

[Jason Nelson]

Turin the Mad wrote:

I suspect that the LoF AP has already been wholly scripted by this point in time, with perhaps the final chapter being sent to the printer about now-ish.

Probably so. As an example, I wrote #4 of this AP (#22 overall), and my draft turnover was the middle of December, which was the deadline for James to get the draft so he and the gang could go over the manuscript and make art orders, which were sent out within about a week of receipt.

I had a meeting with James & Wes where we batted around story ideas and concepts for that adventure back in I think September, so had about 3 months to write it. By the time we had that meeting a basic plotting document with a few paragraphs for each adventure had already been written up. I think the idea of the map being stolen in LoF #3 was in that document but now I don't recall for sure - still, it shows you in general terms that major plot structures are being put together about a year in advance of product showing up. The adventure writers fill out the details of the sections of the campaign they design (and I hope you guys enjoy the things I came up with), but the skeleton of the AP has to be set up well in advance so that writers can all be working from the same basic script, so the author of adventure #4, say, doesn't hijack or divert things in a way that messes stuff up for adventure #5 or that doesn't naturally follow from adventure #3.

These ARE adventure PATHS, so by definition there is a bit of railroading implied. You're not going from Keep on the Borderlands to the Ghost Tower of Inverness and then meandering out on an Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. There is a progression and building of the campaign as a unit, and whatever you put IN your section of the path, you have to make sure they get from point A to point B. And make that stuff in between awesome... :)

[Charles Evans 25]

Whilst I accept a certain amount of plotting may be necessary to get from A to B, saying that the PCs lose something "by DM Fiat 'cos the path depends on that happening" needs a lot of work by the DM with some groups.
At the very least I think alternate options sidebars should be included. ('A Memory of Darkness', for example, did try to address what happens if players/PCs don't like the idea of the initial option presented to them following one particular attack - I'm trying not to be too specific here, since 'A Memory of Darkness' is the Second Darkness path, and players in that path may be reading this thread. I like to see alternatives such as that presented.)

[Turin the Mad]

Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Whilst I accept a certain amount of plotting may be necessary to get from A to B, saying that the PCs lose something "by DM Fiat 'cos the path depends on that happening" needs a lot of work by the DM with some groups.

At the very least I think alternate options sidebars should be included. ('A Memory of Darkness', for example, did try to address what happens if players/PCs don't like the idea of the initial option presented to them following one particular attack - I'm trying not to be too specific here, since 'A Memory of Darkness' is the Second Darkness path, and players in that path may be reading this thread. I like to see alternatives such as that presented.)

Aye, such sidebars are always useful. And IIRC Paizo generally tends to be pretty good about presenting options when they have the print space to do so.

I've had to do that with Savage Tide and Crimson Throne when I did not have the down time to expend on dealing with the unexpected direction the players took. The whole "look, your idea(s) are great, but you're gonna have to go there to get what you need/not get annihilated/other" thing.

Hopefully when ever it is I'm the screen monkey again I will have sufficient prep time to peruse the AP in detail...

And hopefully that is not an issue until the Pathfinder-specific AP comes down the pipeline.

[Drakli]

To be honest, I don't expect to influence the Legacy of Fire Path... my choice of words was likely poor. Mostly, I wanted an opportunity to slip a little critique in with my 'don't worry, the heroes releasing the big bad ain't necessarily a bad trope,' statement.

In considering the Adventure Paths placed by Paizo under the Pathfinder banner, I would rate Curse of the Crimson Throne as the best thus far.

In my opinion, Curse of the Crimson Throne is best because it keeps a great deal of internal consistancy, has a strong recognizable villain character, and somehow manages to avoid feeling like it manipulates the PCs while still keeping a very strong sense of direction. It also helps that it's a largely urban adventure, which is exciting to any DM who enjoys fleshing out a large cast of support characters, as well as any players who enjoy getting drunk and messing around in bars.

I don't entirely know how to describe it, because I don't have the books in front of me, but while there are instances where the characters may be (delightfully) manipulated, there aren't places where they must be manipulated or the plot kinda falls klunk. There are places where the PCs need to Go There, and Get Ye Flask, but they're very logical and stem from the object being there, when it's needed here, and the times PCs have to interact with certain PCs to get things done, it's often quite open ended as to how they tackle it. It guides them without unduly restricting them.

It's a happy place and I love CotCT for it (Great Job, guys!,) and I just want to say I hope Legacy of Fire is the same way... and I don't see definitive evidence yet that it isn't.