Male Ass + Female Horse --(high fertility)--> Mule (male always infertile, female rarely fertile).
Female Ass + Male Horse --(very low fertility*)--> Hinny (very rarely fertile and only with other hybrids) *- Male Horses also not attracted to Asses.
Male Lion + Female Tiger ----> Liger (larger than either parent. Females often fertile, males sometimes fertile).
Female Lion + Male Tiger ----> Tigon (Average size of parents, males sterile, females usually fertile)
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Male Human + Female Elf --(????)--> ????
Female Human + Male Elf --(????)--> ????
Male Human + Female Orc --(????)--> ????
Female Human + Male Elf --(????)--> ????
Sounds like some interesting options to flesh out a campaign world . . .
Rimlar
Male Ass + Female Horse --(high fertility)--> Mule (male always infertile, female rarely fertile).
Female Ass + Male Horse --(very low fertility*)--> Hinny (very rarely fertile and only with other hybrids) *- Male Horses also not attracted to Asses.
Male Lion + Female Tiger ----> Liger (larger than either parent. Females often fertile, males sometimes fertile).
Female Lion + Male Tiger ----> Tigon (Average size of parents, males sterile, females usually fertile)
======================================================================
Male Human + Female Elf --(????)--> ????
Female Human + Male Elf --(????)--> ????Male Human + Female Orc --(????)--> ????
Female Human + Male Elf --(????)--> ????Sounds like some interesting options to flesh out a campaign world . . .
Rimlar
I cant possibly see any difference between male/female or female/male differences in an elf/human union as there are no differences in real world human races like oriental/occidental or african/american; when it comes to which sex had the parentage, or fetility for that matter.
As far as half orcs go, since they are much farther from humans than elves, I have trouble seeing a male human and a female orc.
The male orc is obviously a case of forced intimacy on the female human.
However 800lb female human covered in pustules who doesnt shower might find the Male orc "cute" you never know.
In the Dark Sun camapaign world, a "MUL" was a half human half dwarf (larger than both parents) and was infertile.
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As far as half orcs go, since they are much farther from humans than elves, I have trouble seeing a male human and a female orc.
The male orc is obviously a case of forced intimacy on the female human.
However 800lb female human covered in pustules who doesnt shower might find the Male orc "cute" you never know.
If you read Tolkien and espouse his take on Orcs... then they're from Elvish stock.
I read a backstory once for a character which contained a part about a tribe of orcs whose males all died in combat, so they hired male "mercenaries" to defend their tribe and to sire new offspring. They selected the males with the largest feet and strongest jaw-lines for mating, "pickling" them to make them more amenable to the copulation. :I now need to shave my tongue:
Genetics is a funny thing, because the examples above produce mostly infertile offspring. There is a hybrid theory (not with aliens) that postulates that humans may be the result of two hominid ancestors creating a new hybrid species (our ancestors). Not sure of all the details though.
As far as half orcs go, since they are much farther from humans than elves, I have trouble seeing a male human and a female orc.
The male orc is obviously a case of forced intimacy on the female human.
However 800lb female human covered in pustules who doesnt shower might find the Male orc "cute" you never know.
If you read Tolkien and espouse his take on Orcs... then they're from Elvish stock.
I read a backstory once for a character which contained a part about a tribe of orcs whose males all died in combat, so they hired male "mercenaries" to defend their tribe and to sire new offspring. They selected the males with the largest feet and strongest jaw-lines for mating, "pickling" them to make them more amenable to the copulation. :I now need to shave my tongue:
Genetics is a funny thing, because the examples above produce mostly infertile offspring. There is a hybrid theory (not with aliens) that postulates that humans may be the result of two hominid ancestors creating a new hybrid species (our ancestors). Not sure of all the details though.
Yes tolkien orcs are the dark elves, but in DnD that idea is squashed with 1) the orcish gods and history of the origin of orcs and 2) Drow are the dark elves.
Even in middle earth, have you seen an orc, do they make you want to mate with the females?
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Yes tolkien orcs are the dark elves, but in DnD that idea is squashed with 1) the orcish gods and history of the origin of orcs and 2) Drow are the dark elves.Even in middle earth, have you seen an orc, do they make you want to mate with the females?
No, but there are examples of Half-Orcs in Tolkien. The Uruk-Hai are bred with men so that they could withstand the sunlight.
What DnD gods of Orcs are we talking about? Do you mean Gruumsh and his inconsistent history? Do you mean planeshopping orcs like in Forgotten Realms?
As far as I can tell it says that Gruumsh created the Orcs, but it doesn't say how he did it. An Elven ancestory would make his followers that much more a depiction of hatred toward the Seldarine.
Watch out for the shades of gray fallacy here. Just because someone says something conflicting with what another person says doesn't mean that the answer lies somewhere inbetween. One source could be a total fabrication...
I actually kind of like the idea that both orcs and elves are descended from humans in some way. It might help to explain why they can both breed with humans (though it does nothing to explain why dragons, fiends, celestials, fey, etc. can and apparently do enjoy breeding with humans...).
Yes tolkien orcs are the dark elves, but in DnD that idea is squashed with 1) the orcish gods and history of the origin of orcs and 2) Drow are the dark elves.Even in middle earth, have you seen an orc, do they make you want to mate with the females?
No, but there are examples of Half-Orcs in Tolkien. The Uruk-Hai are bred with men so that they could withstand the sunlight.
What DnD gods of Orcs are we talking about? Do you mean Gruumsh and his inconsistent history? Do you mean planeshopping orcs like in Forgotten Realms?
As far as I can tell it says that Gruumsh created the Orcs, but it doesn't say how he did it. An Elven ancestory would make his followers that much more a depiction of hatred toward the Seldarine.
Watch out for the shades of gray fallacy here. Just because someone says something conflicting with what another person says doesn't mean that the answer lies somewhere inbetween. One source could be a total fabrication...
Well, isnt anything in fantasy total fabrication? Orcs themsevles are total fabrication.
In every fanatsy setting I know of Elves are of themselves an entirely separate race, never related to humans genetically.
Why can elves and orcs breed with humans and say dwarves cannot?
Dunno the answer to that.
(darksun has Muls, but thats only one campaign setting /set of fantasy novels)
I've seen one half-elf half orc once ( a female played in live role playing) she was basically a half-orc who was skinny and weak. But mechanically, rules-wise, a half orc.
AS far as tolkien half orcs, it's not described how the half orcs are "created".
In tolkiens guide to middle earth Uruk-hai are clearly a higher race of "evolved" orcs and NOT half orcs. Although the half orcs DO exist, they are not Uruks.
In peter jacksons movie, Gandalf can be quoted as saying "Sauruman has bred orcs with goblin men" Referring clearly TO the Uruks. But again in Tolkiens Guide to middle earth; "Goblins" ARE Orcs (one in the same race, only "goblins" are orcs from the moria region, where as "orcs" are orc directly in service of sauron and originate from the Land of Mordor. Genetically the "goblins" are 'rattier', skinnier, smaller but more cunning and smarter. The "orcs" are stronger, taller and more brutish. But they are in fact they same racially.
So Gandalfs movie statement wouldnt make sense: Sauruman has mixed orcs with orcs to make orcs?
Hmmm.
Tolkiens Guide to Middle Earth DOES acknowledge half-orcs.So they DO exist, but again no mention of HOW.
Peter Jacksons Rendition (which I rather like) does seem to refer to the Uruks AS Half-orcs and thus a higher "Breed" of Orc, and depicts them as not being born from flesh and blood mothers but out of weird cocoons (possibly like some kind of golem-like wizard creation)
I "assume" jackson did this because he wanted to avoid the whole messy "rape" or "ugly men mating with normal human women" issue in his movie.
But it does give "rise" to the idea that Sauruman artifically created the Uruks.
But Tolkiens guide to Middle Earth states the Uruk "race" was literally obliterated at the battle of the hornburg. It also is quite clear the race never existed prior an was exclusive to Saurumans forces.
Yet when the trio of Legolas Gimil and Strider encounter Emoer and his Riders, they seem already quite familiar with Uruks and call them by name, as if they are a "standard" creature?
Lots of inconsitancies. Just like DnD orcs.
I LOVE Tolkien "goblins" and how they look in relation to the "orcs" (even though they are tecnhically the same race)
I take the tolkien and mesh it with the TSR/WotC to make MY orc/goblins.
I DO prefer 1st ed take of "goblinoids" meaning that goblins, orcs, hobgoblins, Bugbears and Ogres are all technically variations of the same race.
I PREFER Tolkines take that Orcs are the FALLEN Elves and are thus "elven" and not "goblin".
However, since reading over Pathfinder/Paizos version of Drow, their origin and all. Ive decied I like it. And we're in the middle of the Second darkness adventure path right now.
Although Im currently toying the the idea that that does not mean that orcs and drow couldnt have decended from the same orginial race ( the elf) just diverged in different ways at different times.
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If I were to have designed where the Orc would've come from, keeping in mind that I like that they're from the same stock as elves, I would say they're the equivalent to Neanderthals or possibly another primitive hominid.
Go back and take a look at the Two Towers. Treebeard says that the Uruk-Hai are crossbreeds of Orcs and Men, while in other places it seems that the Uruk-Hai are like "super-orcs". Also, in Return of the King there are Half-Orcs and Goblin-Men in the Shire.
In earlier editions of the game Orcs were a kind of Goblin. It wasn't until 3.0 came out that they were distinguished from Goblin-kind.
Orc itself is from Middle-English, meaning demon or something like an ogre or troll. There are plenty of old english examples of ogres, trolls, and giants taking mortal brides and creating horrible half-breed monsters. The most famous is probably Grendel.
I don't know why there aren't half-dwarves in D&D, it seems kind of silly to not include them. Prince Caspian's tutor in Chronicles of Narnia is a half-dwarf, so there is fantasy precedence for them. Perhaps designers were worried that half-dwarves, like half-elves, would be considered a less than desirable race and didn't bother to design them. Who knows?
Tolkin invented Half-Elves with both Elrond and Aragorn (mixed elven and human ancestry). And all fantasy after that followed his precedent.
I just found out something very interesting:
Apparently there is something called hybridogensis, which is a form of repruduction found in some fish and frogs. The individuals of the species are all female and mate with male individuals from another spicies. The offspring will have 50% of it's genetic material from the female and 50% from the male, as usually.
BUT, when the offspring mates and it contributes 50% of its genetic material to their own offspring, they contribute exactly the same 50% they got from their mother and none of that, which they got from their father.
That's actually pretty much what sirens, nymphs, hags, gorgons and the like are said to do. I always thought it's rediculous, but apparently it does happen in the real world. In fact, this would make every single nymph a half-nymph, but the nymph ancestry will never be deluded.
(There's also a form of reproduction called gynogensis, in which the famle does mate, but all the genetic material from the male is immediately discarded, which makes the offspring clones of the female.)
I cant possibly see any difference between male/female or female/male differences in an elf/human union as there are no differences in real world human races like oriental/occidental or african/american; when it comes to which sex had the parentage, or fetility for that matter.
Bear in mind that those are races of a single species, and what is in DND (naming convention aside) is multiple species. A more apt comparison would be Homo Sapiens mating with a Homo Erectus which likely would have different results based on parentage as many genetic traits are dominant or recessive on gender specific chromasomes.
This is the case with Ligers. The gene that controls growth is on the X chromasome (female side) for Tigers, resulting in larger females than males. But on the Y chromasome (male side) for Lions, making the males larger than females. Put a Tiger X and a Lion Y together and you get a double dose of growth.
As far as half orcs go, since they are much farther from humans than elves, I have trouble seeing a male human and a female orc.
The male orc is obviously a case of forced intimacy on the female human.
Never underestimate what a guy will do to survive... torture lowers lots of inhibitions (as do drugs and alchohol).
I cant possibly see any difference between male/female or female/male differences in an elf/human union as there are no differences in real world human races like oriental/occidental or african/american; when it comes to which sex had the parentage, or fetility for that matter.
Bear in mind that those are races of a single species, and what is in DND (naming convention aside) is multiple species. A more apt comparison would be Homo Sapiens mating with a Homo Erectus which likely would have different results based on parentage as many genetic traits are dominant or recessive on gender specific chromasomes.
Are elves really as much a different species from humans as africans are from caucasians?
If you were to make caucasians a race and africans a race they would clearly have different mechanics. Height and weight tables, racial bonus to str and dex, maybe even bonuses to skills would all be different from eachother.
Im sure you could do the same thing with orientals, or maybe polynesians (Im not really sure how much different from orientals they are).
The genetic similitude between elves and humans is just as close as those from caucasians and africans, but to look at them they are easily distinguishable from eachother, in both cases.
Try and cross a Dog and a Cat and you can't do it. Because you are look at Canine and Feline.
With Africans and Caucasians they are technically considered both HomoSapien.
Humans in DND are Homosapien, but elves are clearly Homo---?
Basically same family.
You could argue that Caucasians and Africans are subraces (Homo-sapien-Europus and Homo-sapien-Africus) but then again an elf could easily be Homo-sapien-aloofus and DnD humans could be Homo-sapien-versatilitus?
The REAL question is could Homo-erectus and Homo-Sapien actually mate and produce live offspring? Would they have been close enough gentically to do so?
IF that is the case one could argue half dwarves should exist as well.
What makes the ORC close enough genetically to humans to create a half-orc?
In OUR game we still assume the tolkien-ism of the ORC and ELF having common ancestry. Seeing as in DnD the orc, elf, and humans are the only races mentioned in rules has been capable of producing halfbreeds.
Clearly things like half-fiends and half-dragons have a "magical" nature to their genetics that make their existance possible.
Then I think there is certainly the possibility of over dominate genes: example what do you get if you breed a gnome and a halfing?
Answer? Either a Full Gnome or a FULL halfing.
Some could be said with the mating of a Dwarf and a Halfling.
So maybe its not that they can't create offspring with the union, but that there is no "clean mix" and one parentage is dominant?
*- Male Horses also not attracted to Asses.Rimlar
Ahh, so they must be leg men then?
Barump Bump!
that is one thing that has always bugged me...
A human can have a child with a Human, an Elf, or an Orc.
An Elf can have a child with a Human or an Elf.
an Orc can have a child with a Human and an Orc.
...why can't a Elf have a child with an Orc?
if the similarities are close enough both ways for humans doesn't it follow that they would be for Elves and Orcs?
A = B = C; therefore A = C
qed.
Heh, I also once played a full human throwback bred from a pair of halforcs in a Orc dominated tribe.
:D
I actually kind of like the idea that both orcs and elves are descended from humans in some way.
Doesn't fit most campaign worlds out there, since they usually have elves appear long before humans.
On Golarion, elves were around long before humans, and orcs only appeared above ground about 10.000 years ago. Still, humans can breed with both elves and orcs. Probably a divine thing or just a quirk.
Note that Golarion elves and Golarion orcs cannot produce off-spring. It's something elves are eternally grateful for - and often use to wind up other races with.
that is one thing that has always bugged me...
A human can have a child with a Human, an Elf, or an Orc.
An Elf can have a child with a Human or an Elf.
an Orc can have a child with a Human and an Orc....why can't a Elf have a child with an Orc?
if the similarities are close enough both ways for humans doesn't it follow that they would be for Elves and Orcs?
A = B = C; therefore A = C
qed.
Quot errot demonstrandum, eh? We have a mathematician (or an engineer) here folks!
Anyway, we have a half-elf/half-orc in our campaign, mechanically hes a half-orc, just the elf flavor for flair. He's a tall, thin, gangly half orc (15 str, 14 con...wimpy by half orc standards) he's a barbarian/wizard going for eldritch knight. Barb from his orc ancestry/ wizard from the elf ancestry. Raised by elves.
Why didn't they destroy him instead of raise him?
It was the elf queens idea that they may be able to use him as an orc spy, and he would mature much sooner (from half orc blood) that this would happen much sooner, than anything else.
So he's the perfect homegrown inside agent.
The campaign started out with an elf/orc war (thats now over, and we are into the second darkness Adventure Path)
We made the backstory for a elf/orc halfbreed to make sense of a wizard/barbarian/eldritch knight.
It seems to be fun and is working.
Physically, we looks like a green skinned half elf with tusked teeth and red eyes, thinner than orc ancestry, more muscled and sinewy than elven ancestry. Chose Barbarian as his favored class seeing as he got a -2 to intelligence for the wizard, it couldnt have been favored (or come naturally to him) he had to work at it.
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I've used this concept below for Amazons for about 25 years in my campaigns but Neithan inspired a more concise/realistic explanation (was previously a blessing/curse from a Goddess but the mechanism was vague). He also inspired other fantasy uses of Hybridogenesis and Gynogenesis.
Hybridogenesis:
Many all-female Fey creatures and some all-female monsters reproduce by Hybridogenesis (hemi-clonal sexual reproduction). They mate with males of compatible humanoid races and their offspring (always female) have half of their genes and half of the genes of the donor male. However, when that female offspring produce eggs, all the genes in the eggs come from the female’s own mother and the genes of the donor male are invariably discarded. Each individual is unique due to the influence of the father, but the race is never diluted over generations. Very rarely, a small amount of genetic material from the male may make the jump into the retained half of the genome, and perhaps this accounts for the existence of similar Fey (Nymphs and Dryads, for example). Even more rarely, a male offspring might occur and be able to spread exotic genes into the more mundane species. On Earth, some fish and waterfrogs reproduce this way.
Gynogenesis:
Some all-female monsters have offspring that are total clones, but a sperm cell from a donor species is needed to activate their eggs. This is the case in species that have partially evolved from sexual to asexual reproduction (Parthenogenesis). Since they have no significant relationship with the donor species, they are usually predatory (mates and than kills) or mate with all kinds of exotic creatures (since nearly any sperm will do). On very rare occasions, some genes from the father may become incorporated in the offspring. On Earth, some salamanders reproduce this way.
Amazons:
Amazons are a variety of Humans and Elves who reproduce sexually like others of their race but have a single trait (carried by a mobile gene or a chromosome fragment) that is passed on by Hybridogenesis from mother to daughter. The effect of this trait is to make 19 or 20 of the Amazon’s offspring female. This is achieved through decreased likelihood of conceiving a surviving male making the Amazon somewhat less fertile than their non-Amazon counterparts. Male offspring of an Amazon do not carry the trait and are otherwise normal, only rare. Amazons are often favored, especially by nobility, as mistresses, concubines, and harem girls due to the dramatically decreased chance of having a male heir or pretender.
Other:
I'm toying with the idea of having some non-human species (possibly Halflings?) reproduce sexually with others of the same species but through Hybridogenesis between females and males of other humanoid species.
Rimlar
Tolkin invented Half-Elves with both Elrond and Aragorn (mixed elven and human ancestry). And all fantasy after that followed his precedent.
The half-elf came out of Norse mythology and Tolkin just made the term more main stream.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-elf
Doug
Quot errot demonstrandum, eh? We have a mathematician (or an engineer) here folks!
Bachelors of Computer Science actually, so a bit of both. I did so enjoy my Logic and Critical Thinking course in college... quite astute!
Anyway, we have a half-elf/half-orc in our campaign, mechanically hes a half-orc, just the elf flavor for flair. He's a tall, thin, gangly half orc (15 str, 14 con...wimpy by half orc standards)
...
Physically, we looks like a green skinned half elf with tusked teeth and red eyes, thinner than orc ancestry, more muscled and sinewy than elven ancestry.
Remarkably similar to what I had house ruled... I also gave the Orc Blood as well as the Elf Blood abilities (I didn't figure that would be overpowering) I had a plot device (a minor artifact) that had different abilities depending on the bearer's race... only that combination of bloods could unlock it's full power though.
Quot errot demonstrandum, eh? We have a mathematician (or an engineer) here folks!
Bachelors of Computer Science actually, so a bit of both. I did so enjoy my Logic and Critical Thinking course in college... quite astute!
Remarkably similar to what I had house ruled... I also gave the Orc Blood as well as the Elf Blood abilities (I didn't figure that would be overpowering) I had a plot device (a minor artifact) that had different abilities depending on the bearer's race... only that combination of bloods could unlock it's full power though.
Anyway, we have a half-elf/half-orc in our campaign, mechanically hes a half-orc, just the elf flavor for flair. He's a tall, thin, gangly half orc (15 str, 14 con...wimpy by half orc standards)
...
Physically, we looks like a green skinned half elf with tusked teeth and red eyes, thinner than orc ancestry, more muscled and sinewy than elven ancestry.
Curious.
The 1/2 elf/orc character has since come across gauntelets of ogre power and a book of +4 con.
Annoying, now hes 18 str/18 con, interesting how some players so bent on those stats always seem to get them....
Why is it that when I see a thread like this, I keep wanting to post things that are completely unhelpful? :(
Realistically, there should be no "racial" hybrids - especially that of a race living 700+ years with a race living 70+ years.
Why is it that when I see a thread like this, I keep wanting to post things that are completely unhelpful? :(
Realistically, there should be no "racial" hybrids - especially that of a race living 700+ years with a race living 70+ years.
what does lifespan have to do with genetic compatibility?
Adam, Noah and Moses all lived 100s and 100s of years and methuselah over 1,000.
All of them human.
Their descendants live a scant 80-100 years.
So if you dont "believe" in the bible, or think it's just a "story" (which is your choice) then the same exact thing can be said for the obvious fantasy of elves.
Why is it that those humans in the bible lived so long, and modern ones do not? Often the source of debate. But for the purpose of DnD let's say God willed it.
Then why can "gods" in DnD "will" it to be so, that humans and elves, orcs and elves, or humans an dwarves can't racially inter-breed.
After all we have cambions, and tieflings? right?
Take someone like Perseus, or Hercules. Descendants directly from gods, which in greek mythology are NOT human, but their own race like titans.
Do the greek god-descended hereos live longer than normal mortals? I dont' actually recall that they do.
I would simly go ahead and say, a half-elf / half-orc would just be stuck to his 70 year life span, as a weakness from his orc ancestry.
But think about it like this.
Why was vietnam so hard to win? US and French troops had a 100 to 1 (or better) kill ratio. But there were always more enemy soldiers?
The vietnameese people were bascially just outbreeding us. Their fmailies had 10 or 15 young men in them,willing togo to war. European and american familes had 3 or less.
Check out along war between elves and orcs.
Orc males mature in what 15?
Elf Males matures at what 120?
OUCH!
Statistically, elves (level 1 warrior) aren't superior to orcs(level 1 warrior) so in the MM they wont be killing them off at 100 to 1.
If an older elf who lives to 600 cant necessarily be a higher level wizard than a human who lives to 160, what is the tactical advantage to living that long?
The Orcs could easily out breed the elves.
What if an long lived 600 year old elf wizard decided "hmmmm, I could arrange for the specialized breeding of 1/2 elf/orcs that would physically mature in 20 years."
That would go a long way to bridging the gap in a long drawn out war, basically with the idea of just using the 1/2 elf/orc as a "shock trooper"
Would elf pride or interest in purity of the race keep them from doing this?
I guess that would depend on the individual and if the elves were getting wiped out or not.
"Pride" certainly didn't keep whites in the 17, 18 or even 1900s from breeding with american slaves. It was in fact quite common, they simply lied about it and denied it happening. that was their "Pride".
So if Indians can interbreed with afircan americans, and english can interbreed with hindu indians and chineese interbreed with japaneese, and Irish with cherokee (all of the above races have "hated eachother" at one point in history)
What keeps an elf/orc union (even if "magically artifical") from happeneing, esepcially since the short life span gives a militarily superior advantage?
if the similarities are close enough both ways for humans doesn't it follow that they would be for Elves and Orcs?
A = B = C; therefore A = C
qed.
Not how genetics works, because it's not actually binary (yes/no); it's more a matter of similarity and likelihood. Think of it as "those within 0.5 unit along a scale of 'elfiness' can breed" (with scale based on % chromosomal similarity to elves, where 1 = 100%) -- if Elves = 1, humans = 0.5, orcs = 0.1, then you can have human/elves (barely possible) and human/orcs (slightly more likely), but no orc/elves.
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Again, I am late to the party. Kenzer and Company had Half-Dwarves, Half-Goblins, Half-Gnolls, Half-Gnomes, Half-Githzerai, Half-Hobgoblins, Half-Satyr and a creature that I can't pronouce (it's starts with a "T"..."Tel-Something") that's an Elf/Orc hybrid. Anyway yeah other half races are viable....
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So if Indians can interbreed with afircan americans, and english can interbreed with hindu indians and chineese interbreed with japaneese, and Irish with cherokee (all of the above races have "hated eachother" at one point in history)
What keeps an elf/orc union (even if "magically artifical") from happeneing, esepcially since the short life span gives a militarily superior advantage?
I think the problem here is that even if they come from different parts of the world any of the above peoples aren't distinct species. Chimpanzees cannot breed with humans (that we know of thank god) or gorillas. This would be more the approxamation others are using when describing the distance between elves, humans, and orcs. I hope that helps here.
Why is it that when I see a thread like this, I keep wanting to post things that are completely unhelpful? :(
Realistically, there should be no "racial" hybrids - especially that of a race living 700+ years with a race living 70+ years.
"Pride" certainly didn't keep whites in the 17, 18 or even 1900s from breeding with american slaves. It was in fact quite common, they simply lied about it and denied it happening. that was their "Pride".
So if Indians can interbreed with afircan americans, and english can interbreed with hindu indians and chineese interbreed with japaneese, and Irish with cherokee (all of the above races have "hated eachother" at one point in history)
What keeps an elf/orc union (even if "magically artifical") from happeneing, esepcially since the short life span gives a militarily superior advantage?
Well. You are ignoring one issue there. Africans, Native Americans, Asians, & Europeans are all "Humans." Elves, Orcs, Gnomes, Dwarves are not. So, yes a Wood Elf and a High Elf could interbreed.
My point is that an Elf breeding with a Human is more like a Human breeding with a Gorilla - both morally and physically.
Why is it that when I see a thread like this, I keep wanting to post things that are completely unhelpful? :(
Realistically, there should be no "racial" hybrids - especially that of a race living 700+ years with a race living 70+ years.
"Pride" certainly didn't keep whites in the 17, 18 or even 1900s from breeding with american slaves. It was in fact quite common, they simply lied about it and denied it happening. that was their "Pride".
So if Indians can interbreed with afircan americans, and english can interbreed with hindu indians and chineese interbreed with japaneese, and Irish with cherokee (all of the above races have "hated eachother" at one point in history)
What keeps an elf/orc union (even if "magically artifical") from happeneing, esepcially since the short life span gives a militarily superior advantage?
Well. You are ignoring one issue there. Africans, Native Americans, Asians, & Europeans are all "Humans." Elves, Orcs, Gnomes, Dwarves are not. So, yes a Wood Elf and a High Elf could interbreed.
My point is that an Elf breeding with a Human is more like a Human breeding with a Gorilla - both morally and physically.
And what I am trying to say is, what actually makes the ELF less human?
All the parts and peices are in the same place. It's a different "species" because you want it to be. But the fact is the elves really arent that different than humans.
There has been alot of recent study about homo erectus and homo sapien, theoretically different species. Yet archeaology has uncovered the extremely likelyhood that there was interbreeding between these two "humans".
Sociologically they both existed at the same time periods and in the same region, therefor they had "access" to eachother and, some skeletal remains suggest that there may have been actual interbreeding (although I have no idea how you could tell that from an old set of bones)
But scientists say homo sapien and homo erectus are two different species, but were they really? Were they really any different than africans and europeans? It's easy to tell the difference for forensic scientsts between the remains of an african and a caucasian, but does the differences in the length of femurs or the distance between the eye socket and nose, make them a different species?
What actually made erectus and sapien different species? Possibl sicentist who thought they were looking at something ( a different species) that they were not (in fact the same species, but different "races")
So what would theoretically make the elf a different "species" instead of simply a different "race".
Why would mating between an elf and a human be "immoral" as opposed to mating between a oriental and an american indian?
Take an example like gorilla and human. Geneticistshave said the gentic code between apes and humans is one chromosome. ONE.
If modern sciense can successfully clone sheep, how far would it be from artifically creating a man/ape zygote?
What would you get? Tarzan? a naked ape? Triple H?
what?
Personally I think it's good they outlaw things like that.
But speaking DnD wise, if a necormancer can make zombies and flesh golems, why couldnt he "see what happens when he mixes an elf with an orc"?
From illustrations I would assume an orc is just as repuslive for humans or elves to mate with as an ape would be to us real world humans.
So I just cant see it happening "normally"
However there is nothign really keeping it from happening artfiically.
IF one can artifically inseminate a woman with frozen DNA from two differnt people to be a serogate mother.
Then could they artifically add the missing chromosome to the apes DNA string, and then cross the modified ape DNA with a human DNA to create MR. APE Man, and then have that gestate inside a human female?
Sounds like a book Micheal Crithon should write.
Genetically, the theory is all there and sound, all it would take to make it "Real" would be a little "magic"
How do they make a liger or a tigon anyway?
Can those animals actually mate or is it done with genetic engineering?
There is also the example of the Zorse, half Zebra half horse.
Those ARE different species, although both equine. They mate easily with eachother, actaully even more successfully than horse and donkey.
So the "different species" arguement is kinda out the window.
There is also the example of the Zorse, half Zebra half horse.
Those ARE different species, although both equine. They mate easily with each other, actully even more successfully than horse and donkey.
Yes, and those hybrids are still fertile, leading to 1/4 zebra-horse mixes and so forth.
Nature is full of examples that suggest that with genetics, you can't simply apply the "if A=B and B=C, then A=C" rationale.
'findel
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All the parts and peices are in the same place. It's a different "species" because you want it to be. But the fact is the elves really arent that different than humans.
Neither are chimpanzees if you think about it. They share almost all of their genetic make up with us, have opposable digits, blah blah. They are a different species, but 99% of their genetic makeup is the same that humans have.
Howabout Neanderthal for a closer look? They are a different species than human but are human for all intents and purposes. There is no evidence that they ever successfully interbred with humans, and a myriad other reasons why they wouldn't be successful in breeding with homo sapiens. This isn't to say that its impossible, but it seems fairly likely that they didn't have any successful hybridization.
As for homo erectus and humans there is a few thousand years gap between human habitation and erectus colonization of the old world as well as evidence that places sapiens off the main evolutionary branch of erectus for years before that. The evidence used to show interbreeding is the location of skeletons at the sites where they find erectus and sapiens together, but this evidence only shows that they might've cohabited. We find dog bones in some places as well, does that mean humans and dogs can interbreed?
Oh, and for definition purposes. Speciation comes from no longer being able to breed with similar creatures. This is how scientist determine what is actually a species and what is just a varied population. The different races of the world are an example of varied population, not speciation.
All the parts and peices are in the same place. It's a different "species" because you want it to be. But the fact is the elves really arent that different than humans.Neither are chimpanzees if you think about it. They share almost all of their genetic make up with us, have opposable digits, blah blah. They are a different species, but 99% of their genetic makeup is the same that humans have.
Howabout Neanderthal for a closer look? They are a different species than human but are human for all intents and purposes. There is no evidence that they ever successfully interbred with humans, and a myriad other reasons why they wouldn't be successful in breeding with homo sapiens. This isn't to say that its impossible, but it seems fairly likely that they didn't have any successful hybridization.
As for homo erectus and humans there is a few thousand years gap between human habitation and erectus colonization of the old world as well as evidence that places sapiens off the main evolutionary branch of erectus for years before that. The evidence used to show interbreeding is the location of skeletons at the sites where they find erectus and sapiens together, but this evidence only shows that they might've cohabited. We find dog bones in some places as well, does that mean humans and dogs can interbreed?
Oh, and for definition purposes. Speciation comes from no longer being able to breed with similar creatures. This is how scientist determine what is actually a species and what is just a varied population. The different races of the world are an example of varied population, not speciation.
Im not saying they found erectus and sapien bones in the same place,Im saying they found evidence of a cross species bones; something to do with the skull, and number of teeth or some such thing.
They were using this as evidence of the "possibility" of cross breeding between the two "humans".No, Chimps and humans cant breed, because the great apes are missing 1 chromosome. BUT like I stated above, it's not impoissible to take the chimp DNA structure, add the Chromosome they are missing and usingcloning technology incubate "something"
What would that "something" be? A human? an ape that speaks? Something else?
Dead?
What?
All Im saying is no matter what you beleive about creation (A: God made everything B: Big bang, evolution C: something else) you either beleive that other species cant interbreed with eachother because God Doesnt want it to be so. OR you believe basically every mammal at one point in time, had the same fish as a great great grand sire.
So following along either belief (religious or scientific) and applying it to a fanatsy realm a) dieties could allow any race mix they want, look at centaurs. or b) powerful wizards could genetically create anything they wanted.
With spells like wish or miracle, and polymorph, it would be literally very easy for a race to be created.
Heck we can make flesh golems "live"
A half elf/orc isnt any stranger than a mermaid, satyr, centaur, or really anything else you can dream up (haripes and sphinxes, hippogriffs, griffons, all come to mind.)
I think alot of people are having trouble with the idea of Orc/elves because its ugly plus beautiful and noble plus savage.
But, clearly as written in tolkien the elf and orc had the same ancestry.
The book doesn't explain HOW sauruman creates the uruk-hai, the movie shows it happening a-sexually (coccon creation) and heavily suggests Sauruman created them magically (considering Sauruman is atually more thna just a wizard but a minor diety (ishtari) himself this is probably likely)
Following that idea path, a Necromantic style Figure in DnD could do the same thing himself. In fact I do remeber adventures where there was evidence ofthe BBEG doing this very thing but more along the lines of creatures, rather than humaniods.
AS I stated above, WHY and elf/orc hybrid? Simply the time period one matures to soldierhood would be worth an unscrupulos elf lord looking into it.
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Im not saying they found erectus and sapien bones in the same place,Im saying they found evidence of a cross species bones; something to do with the skull, and number of teeth or some such thing.
They were using this as evidence of the "possibility" of cross breeding between the two "humans".
Possibility is a big word there. There is no proof that they did interbreed in the fossil record and to say that they did isn't provable as a result.
That same evidence also caused some scientists to think that humans may've been eating the erectus.
As for hybrid bones: cite your source. There is only one suspected case of hybridization found so far from northern spain between humans and neanderthals but its age suggests its just an atypical human. But please, if they did I would love to see the evidence!
No, Chimps and humans cant breed, because the great apes are missing 1 chromosome. BUT like I stated above, it's not impoissible to take the chimp DNA structure, add the Chromosome they are missing and usingcloning technology incubate "something"
Technically, humans are the creature missing a chromosome. That same missing chromosome doesn't stop a donkey and horse from interbreeding, but it does seem to be the root of their infertility.
Other stuff...
Oh, and don't get me wrong here either. I don't care if a D&D or Pathfinder game decides it wants hybrids or whatever, in fact it could be pretty cool. I was just responding to the other things you said.
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Oh, and don't get me wrong here either. I don't care if a D&D or Pathfinder game decides it wants hybrids or whatever, in fact it could be pretty cool. I was just responding to the other things you said.
I know I'm quoting myself here but I want to add on that the sorcerer class kind of says that anyone can be decended from all sorts of bizarre hybridizations. Aberrant... :shudder:
Im not saying they found erectus and sapien bones in the same place,Im saying they found evidence of a cross species bones; something to do with the skull, and number of teeth or some such thing.
They were using this as evidence of the "possibility" of cross breeding between the two "humans".Possibility is a big word there. There is no proof that they did interbreed in the fossil record and to say that they did isn't provable as a result.
That same evidence also caused some scientists to think that humans may've been eating the erectus.
As for hybrid bones: cite your source. There is only one suspected case of hybridization found so far from northern spain between humans and neanderthals but its age suggests its just an atypical human. But please, if they did I would love to see the evidence!
No, Chimps and humans cant breed, because the great apes are missing 1 chromosome. BUT like I stated above, it's not impoissible to take the chimp DNA structure, add the Chromosome they are missing and usingcloning technology incubate "something"Technically, humans are the creature missing a chromosome. That same missing chromosome doesn't stop a donkey and horse from interbreeding, but it does seem to be the root of their infertility.
Other stuff...Oh, and don't get me wrong here either. I don't care if a D&D or Pathfinder game decides it wants hybrids or whatever, in fact it could be pretty cool. I was just responding to the other things you said.
Hmm I might have my soruce wrong...Is neanderthal erectus? I was thinking Cro Magnon (I thought they were erectus)
Cro Magnon co-existed with Sapiens.Cro-Magnon (from evidence) was infact canabalistic.
Anyway, anything I was saying above had cro-magnon in mind not "cave man" neanderthals.
And Im pretty positive the ape is missing the chromosome.
If you can find it in a quote somewhere please post.
And, if you want to get technical,there is also scientific research claiming ALL the homo-races are actually the SAME and there never was a human evolution, that they are all in fact homo-sapiens indeed, which means there wasnt a difference at all between neaders, cros and US.
You have two scientific camps, creationist (those who use their findings to back up the bible) and darwinists (those who use their findings to back up the theory of evolution)
Both have "scientfic" findings to back up their claims.
Truth of the matter is this form of science is just as stable as diet science, that is every few years to a decade, people are saying "oh we had it all wrong, it's really liek this"
Mostly it is just guess work and we really can't beleive any of it.
And yes, that's true, Technically if you're a sorceror you could have had a beholder and a great grandfather.
But how would this have happened??
Clearly, the dragon is known to take humanoid lovers, but does so through its innate polymorph ability (an thus technically alters its own genes to make it compatible but not so much as it doesnt leave some trace of "alien" ancestry behind)
This same sirage could easily be done in the case of an elf/orc, which basically is what Ive been saying all along. If it cant happen "naturally" (the way mommy and daddy made us) It could be done through arcane (or divine i suppose) means. And rather easily, and commonly at that.
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Hmm I might have my soruce wrong...Is neanderthal erectus? I was thinking Cro Magnon (I thought they were erectus)
Cro Magnon co-existed with Sapiens.
Cro-Magnon (from evidence) was infact canabalistic.
Cro Magnon is Homo Sapiens. Cro Magnon is the term used to describe the first modern humans to migrate from Africa.
Anyway, anything I was saying above had cro-magnon in mind not "cave man" neanderthals.
And Im pretty positive the ape is missing the chromosome.
If you can find it in a quote somewhere please post.
http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=69
Also try
http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/sld071.html
and
http://www.kqed.org/quest/blog/2008/05/12/chromosome-fusion-chance-or-desig n/
And, if you want to get technical,there is also scientific research claiming ALL the homo-races are actually the SAME and there never was a human evolution, that they are all in fact homo-sapiens indeed, which means there wasnt a difference at all between neaders, cros and US.
That’s not the commonly accepted scientific theory, nor is it provable. Genetic information, fossil record, and anatomy all point to the exact opposite in fact. There are multiple species that could be called homo, but definitely not all are sapiens.
You have two scientific camps, creationist (those who use their findings to back up the bible) and darwinists (those who use their findings to back up the theory of evolution)
Both have "scientfic" findings to back up their claims.
Truth of the matter is this form of science is just as stable as diet science, that is every few years to a decade, people are saying "oh we had it all wrong, it's really liek this"
Mostly it is just guess work and we really can't beleive any of it.
They don’t just guess. They remain healthily skeptical about everything that comes along, which is why its science and not faith. It doesn’t matter which camp you are a part of, what matters is what is provable and what is likely.
The other stuff…
Matters not. Ask your GM.
Just make sure to have a camera ready when you ask him how a beholder sired your ancestor. :P
Hmm I might have my soruce wrong...Is neanderthal erectus? I was thinking Cro Magnon (I thought they were erectus)
Cro Magnon co-existed with Sapiens.
Cro-Magnon (from evidence) was infact canabalistic.Cro Magnon is Homo Sapiens. Cro Magnon is the term used to describe the first modern humans to migrate from Africa.
Anyway, anything I was saying above had cro-magnon in mind not "cave man" neanderthals.
And Im pretty positive the ape is missing the chromosome.
If you can find it in a quote somewhere please post.
http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=69
Also try
http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/sld071.html
and
http://www.kqed.org/quest/blog/2008/05/12/chromosome-fusion-chance-or-desig n/
And, if you want to get technical,there is also scientific research claiming ALL the homo-races are actually the SAME and there never was a human evolution, that they are all in fact homo-sapiens indeed, which means there wasnt a difference at all between neaders, cros and US.That’s not the commonly accepted scientific theory, nor is it provable. Genetic information, fossil record, and anatomy all point to the exact opposite in fact. There are multiple species that could be called homo, but definitely not all are sapiens.
They don’t just guess. They remain healthily skeptical about everything that comes along, which is why its science and not faith. It doesn’t matter which camp you are...You have two scientific camps, creationist (those who use their findings to back up the bible) and darwinists (those who use their findings to back up the theory of evolution)
Both have "scientfic" findings to back up their claims.
Truth of the matter is this form of science is just as stable as diet science, that is every few years to a decade, people are saying "oh we had it all wrong, it's really liek this"
Mostly it is just guess work and we really can't beleive any of it.
Actually, the Darwinist evolution is NOT provable, it is just accepted popular theory, and there is plenty of creationist science to contradict the evolutionism. NEITHER side is provable. Different skeletonsand/or fossils does not create another race.
My skeleton is vastly diffferent than yours (I have an extra 20% bone density than normal, thanks to unusal genetics)My Grandfather had THREE sets of teeth (baby, adult and then grew another set at 51 years old)
None of that makes us anything other than Homo Sapien.
Africans, Puerto Ricans, Mayans, Caucasians, all have different skeletons and therefor would (and have) left different fossils.
Because something looks different does not make it a different species.
It's ALL theory.
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Actually, the Darwinist evolution is NOT provable, it is just accepted popular theory, and there is plenty of creationist science to contradict the evolutionism. NEITHER side is provable.
Actually, if you wait long enough you can see the effects of evolution take place with your own eyes. They first noticed this with Tsitsi flies and now they are beginning to notice it in other animals.
Different skeletonsand/or fossils does not create another race.
Actually, they do. This is how you can tell the difference between many different kinds of similar animals. If you take a look at the skeleton of an african elephant it is different than an asian elephant. Comparing to extinct animals like the mammoth and mastadon we know that they were two seperate species of elephants. We can tell the same thing from our hominid ancestors as well. By looking at the bone structure and the timeframe from which the creature derives you can pretty well tell what belongs where in the human family tree of evolution.
My skeleton is vastly diffferent than yours (I have an extra 20% bone density than normal, thanks to unusal genetics)
My Grandfather had THREE sets of teeth (baby, adult and then grew another set at 51 years old)
None of that makes us anything other than Homo Sapien.
No, you're still homo sapiens. I would point out, however, that these are definitely things that can lead to further evolution. If your "big bones" are passed on to your children...
Africans, Puerto Ricans, Mayans, Caucasians, all have different skeletons and therefor would (and have) left different fossils.
Because something looks different does not make it a different species.
Not really. You see, while there is variation there are trends in variation that provide for things to be classified into similar taxonomic fields. There are going to be a wide selection of things that could fall under the header of homo sapiens. That includes everyone you listed above. Race (ethnicity) is a function of variation not speciation. Speciation takes place genetically, and genetically they are all homo sapiens. We're all people, no more no less.
It's ALL theory.
We've jacked this thread enough. If you want to continue discussing this I suggest we move to off topic or you can send me an email.