So I was working on a PFS scenario submission, and then at the end I started working up the EL for each of the Tiers.
A LOT of stuff starting swinging higher than I thought, and it seemed really hard to find anything for Tier 1-2 that wasn't at least a 3 if not a 4.
Since there isn't a new PF monsters book yet, does the slightly enhanced toughness of starting PCs balance that out any (using the d20 open source monsters, anyway)?
The PFRPG has chapter 12 about Running the Pathfinder RPG with some good hints for setting up encounter balance. Just making sure I have this right - PC class levels count as level -2 for calculations, and NPC class levels as level -3? (Thereby implying that all monsters are scaled to be tougher compared one on one to an equivalent PC level, as it is assumed that a group of PCs will be taking on one?)
My worries were slightly alleviated by the ELs in The Third Riddle, which:
for Tier 1-2 were: 5, 4, 4, 3, 2
and Tier 3-4 were: 8, 6, 5, 7, 3
Just Boomer evilness, or a pretty good gauge?
Also interesting to note in that example (I haven't compared any other PFS scenarios yet) there isn't a direct correlation between the toughness of an Encounter between different Tiers (i.e., just because encounter 1 is two ELs higher than the party for Tier 1, it might be THREE ELs higher for Tier 3).
And for when you want to scale something down, what do you do? Have monsters start combat wounded? NPC assistance? Extra clues on puzzles/traps/riddles for lower level Tiers? Extra items in the area that can be more helpful to lower level parties but not worth it for higher level ones?
Whew. Crunch is not a big part of my writing, apparently! Thoughts? Suggestions?
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I noticed this as well, and it was particularly a problem for my submission because there is absolutely no chance to rest except after encounter 1. I didn't have room to break the encounters down by tier this time around, so I didn't address the issue in my outline. If I get the chance to flesh out the adventure, I plan on reducing the numbers of foes for the lower tier and having some of the monsters run into trouble of their own before encountering the PCs (thus reducing their hp). This seems to be a valid approach, as per Murder on the Silken Caravan. Alternatively, in one encounter the foe will have a less lethal motivation for the lower tier.
I noticed this as well, and it was particularly a problem for my submission because there is absolutely no chance to rest except after encounter 1. I didn't have room to break the encounters down by tier this time around, so I didn't address the issue in my outline. If I get the chance to flesh out the adventure, I plan on reducing the numbers of foes for the lower tier and having some of the monsters run into trouble of their own before encountering the PCs (thus reducing their hp). This seems to be a valid approach, as per Murder on the Silken Caravan. Alternatively, in one encounter the foe will have a less lethal motivation for the lower tier.
Yeah, I made my first big bad be ready to run if needed, for fear of killing off too many Tier 1 PCs, and put a lock on the second half of the adventure so hopefully they can rest if they need it! (Really - a lock.)
Also damaged up one bad guy at a lower Tier.
I like the different motivation! Did you write that into the submission, or just will fill it out later?
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I like the different motivation! Did you write that into the submission, or just will fill it out later?
Unfortunately, I didn't have the room to add the different motivation. I'm glad you like the idea...hopefully I'll get to flesh it out! Last time I erred on the side of including things I really WANTED to include and losing out on crucial details that made my plot too confusing. I'm crossing my fingers that I didn't err on the other side of that spectrum this time.
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After writing up my submission, I ran the encounters through the Encounter calculator at d20 Encounter Calculator and found mine running high as well. Had to tweak everything down and shuffle things around to get a mix that felt right number wise.
I'm recently returning to RPGing, though and am wondering how "hard" the Challenge Ratings as published should be taken. Is it a guideline or a hard number?
Okay, got a few more PFS to compare Encounter Levels on. Here we go.
11: The Third Riddle ELs:
Tier 1-2: 5, 4, 4, 3, 2
Tier 3-4: 8, 6, 5, 7, 3
12: Stay of Execution
Tier 1-2: 3, 3, 4, 3
Tier 3-4: 4, 5, 6, 4
Tier 6-7: 6, 7, 8, 7
13: The Prince of Augustana
Tier 1-2: 2, 3, 5, 3
Tier 3-4: 4, 6*, 8, 6
*It might be 5, it's 5 in the Act 2, 6 in the Tier listing
14: The Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch
Tier 1-2: 4, 3, 3, 4*
Tier 3-4: 6, 5, 5, 5
Tier 6-7: 7, 7, 7, 7
*Again, 3 in the Act heading, 4 in the Tier
So there's a spread on the last 4 PFS available. Again, it's interesting seeing where there's a discrepancy between the Tier ELs and not. Impressed by the steady EL 7 in Grandmaster Torch! But really everything in that one is above Tier level at the lower Tiers. Be interesting to compare difficulty reports from players at the various Tiers to see how this affects everyone. You do have a lot options/resiliency at the higher Tiers, versus the more deadly encounters.
Points to Third Riddle and Augustana for encounters that are 3 levels above Tier for Tier 1-2 and 4 above for Tier 3-4. Good times!
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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As an aside, I'm curious as to why you're looking at Pathfinder Society adventures through the lens of the Pathfinder RPG Beta rules. PFS adventures are always run under the 3.5 rules-set.
Are you running PFS adventures as part of the Beta playtest?
(Come next August, of course, we'll switch, and the adventures will be run under the actual Pathfinder RPG, the rules for which we don't yet have.)
The EL levels are geared for four players and one DM. They also assume fighter, divine caster, arcane caster, other in the party makeup. Sometimes we let the lower Tiers skew a little high because we know six people will be running it. Sometimes we seriously rewrite low level encounters to reduce the challenge level because we know four players wouldn't survive. Most of the time we get it right. Every once in a while we get it horrible wrong.
My suggestions for the tiers and ELs would be like this:
Tier 1-2: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3
Tier 3-4: 3, 3, 4, 4, 5
Tier 4-5: 4, 4, 5, 5, 6
Tier 5-6: 5, 6, 6, 7, 7
Tier 6-7: 6, 7, 7, 8, 8
Tier 7-8: 8, 8, 8, 9, 10
Tier 8-9: 8, 9, 9, 10, 11
Tier 10-11: 11, 11, 12, 13, 14
Tier 12: 12, 13, 14, 15, 15
These are suggestions, though, because I don't want cookie-cutter scenarios that always follow a guideline. But these should give submitters and scenario authors a good idea how we feel the higher levels skew with regards to difficulty of combat.
These suggestions also don't take into account purely RP or puzzle-based encounters. It's entirely okay for a Tier 8-9, say, to look like this: 8, -, 9, 10, 11 where the "-" is an RP encounter that takes time but doesn't present the party with an XP-worthy challenge. In fact, I'd like to see RP and non-combat encounters appear in more scenarios. Combat is cool and fun but there are players and GMs who like to play/run a good RP scene with their PCs and I'd like to see that aspect of the Society written for a bit more.
As an aside, I'm curious as to why you're looking at Pathfinder Society adventures through the lens of the Pathfinder RPG Beta rules. PFS adventures are always run under the 3.5 rules-set.
Are you running PFS adventures as part of the Beta playtest?
(Come next August, of course, we'll switch, and the adventures will be run under the actual Pathfinder RPG, the rules for which we don't yet have.)
Because I submitted for RPG Superstar, which does use the new Pathfinder Beta rules, and I foolishly made the leap that PFS did as well. Teach me not to reread the Pathfinder Society Guide over and over! Le sigh, all of my calculations for EL were using the Pathfinder RPG rules! It would have been one thing if that section wasn't in the Pathfinder RPG, but in some later DMG-type book, but when I saw them in there, I went rolling merrily along! Which meant I boosted up a lot of the encounters I developed into an even more deadly stratosphere. Oops.
Thanks Josh, appreciate the input and insight!
Has anyone tried to develop a Tier-variant for RPing or puzzles or what-have-you (any non-combat, really)?
I was considering adding extra clues on a puzzle section, but that rewards lazy players more than level varities. The real thing would be tied to something that evolves in a character as they move through the Tiers, so pretty much skills or something else in that vein. I think I saw that in a recent PFS, or maybe on one of the board posts here.
Hmmm, really it could just be a higher DC for a skill, so that Tier 1 characters are unlikely to hit it, even if they roll a 20, but a Tier 7 character would often roll it, and so on.
I'll have to think about the RPing bits more, see if I can think of anything for those.
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Since I had no idea on the guidelines on encounter design in PFS (maybe it reads somewhere else too, but I was too lazy to look. So sue me), I had/have to think of Living Greyhawk's guidelines.
That's APL+2 at most. APL+3 is pushing it, might get seriously over good taste.
I wish to remind all scenario writers that CRs are just assumed difficulties, not based on some super math. Also different starting situations might make a huge difference, and thus shift the EL by ±2.