Deliberately failing faction missions?


GM Discussion

Lantern Lodge 4/5

I'm curious to hear feedback on the following.

I've GMed most of the currently released Pathfinder Scenarios now for my home group, both for our enjoyment and as playtests for upcoming Cons in Melbourne, Australia. I'm aware that you can use a little more flexibility running scenarios for a home group (less time restraints, you're familiar with the players etc) than you would running for a Con.

Some background:

In one adventure I've GMed, a player deliberately failed his faction mission because it was contrary to his code of ethics (something involving poison or slaves or somesuch), and I totally agreed with his choice, this should be something a player is free to choose.

Cheliax is the faction that everyone loves to hate. We have two Chelish in my home group, and the banter that carries on between them and the other players (particularly Andoran faction) is most entertaining! My housemate (and I know he won't mind my saying so) plays a very nasty piece of work named Selin Thrune, human cleric of Asmodeus.

After 18 months of GMing Pathfinder, today I swapped GM chair with one of my players, and played my very first Pathfinder character ever! I've played 3.5 characters at Cons for the last five years, but this marks my first year running scenarios at Cons instead of being a player, so I thought I should play a character type I'm unfamiliar with to broaden my knowledge when running tables at cons - and so drifted towards a halfling cleric concept.

The more I explored this character, certain themes appealed to me, and before long, Slip, halfling cleric of Norgorber emerged:

Slip, a dark-skinned halfling born in Osirion, was abducted and sold into Chelish slavery at an early age, and wears a black keffiyeh to hide the house Thrune slave brand that scars his neck. He learned to hide his hatred for the Chelish, instead working against the Chelish from the inside. Having gained his freedom after many years of servitude and "loyalty", he now accepts Chelish faction missions, but sabotages them whenever the opportunity is safe to do so, and secretly assists known Andoran freedom fighters with their missions against slavery, and longs for the Osirion culture he never grew up to know.

I want to make this quite clear:

My goal in this is NOT to purposely spoil Chelish players enjoyment of the game, or deprive them faction points. I want to honour Pathfinder Society's non-player-versus-player conflict rule. If Chelish players report their faction point(s), I merely want my failed faction missions to counter-balance or off-set some of their wins in the Paizo database, and have some roleplaying fun while doing so.

So far, in my first game, I would say this was a resounding success!

As I'll be attending Cons as a Pathfinder Society GM only, the only games I'll be playing as a PLAYER will be slot zero home games with my friends.

My housemate knew I was being secretive about aspects of my character, only revealing what I wanted him to know, but he never suspected for a moment that Selin was being out-manipulated by a shiftier character than herself, until the very last moment (actually during discussions after the game). His response - "Diabolical!"

I know I've thrown down a challenge now, one that Selin fully intends to meet. Common ground though, we're both rebuking clerics, which is something our characters pride ourselves in and respect in each other. We're both really looking forward to our next game together, and word is already spreading among other friends who weren't at this session that Selin has met her match (or at least a contender), and are very keen to meet this character. Interesting times lay ahead!

Okay, the feedback I'm looking for?

I realise that some of the above is close to the line as far as Pathfinder Society is concerned, particularly regarding non-conflicting faction missions. This is probably fine in the context of a home game, probably not so cool in a convention situation. What are people's thoughts?

Josh, does the faction database only count "successful" missions? Or do "failed" missions actually reduce a faction's prestige count (rather than having no effect)?

Something I need to know .. if this is strongly regarded as something that SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED in Pathfinder Society, eg. receiving faction missions only to deliberately report failed missions, then I'll have to concede and change Slip's faction to something more appropriate before registering the character online.

Cheers :-)
DarkWhite

Liberty's Edge 2/5

An interesting concept. Character suicide (what with the never getting access to good stuff), but clever.

Now my understanding was that only successful missions counted in the faction wars, so you may want to go Andoran, the more diametrically opposed faction, or possibly Osirian as the character has a basis there.

Liberty's Edge Contributor

I'm glad that you're open to hearing other people's thoughts on this. While I agree that this is an evocative and clever concept, I do think that it goes against the spirit of the organized play guidelines.

The way you describe it, the character's main motivation is to make sure that other characters are unable to complete their faction missions. He may not be swinging a sword at the characters' heads, but this little cleric is definitely engaged in player-versus-player activity.

Ultimately, I think that the best thing to do is to change the faction to Andoran and take a more "positive" approach to opposing Chelish oppression.

Sovereign Court

If you want to stop Cheliax from gaining sway in the Inner Sea Region, joining a different faction would be more effective. This is because not only would Cheliax miss out on your faction point, but your new faction would GAIN a faction point (assuming you were successful in your mission).

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Thanks for the comments so far, and sorry for the long reply. The general concensus appears to be "yes, cool idea! but change your faction".

Hmmm ...

NotMousse wrote:
An interesting concept. Character suicide (what with the never getting access to good stuff), but clever.

You have a good point here, and I considered that up-front when concepting this character, and decided that faction awards were going to be an obvious sacrifice for roleplaying opportunity. I still gain access to "items found during this scenario", so I'll just have to make the most of those.

NotMousse wrote:
Now my understanding was that only successful missions counted in the faction wars, so you may want to go Andoran, the more diametrically opposed faction, or possibly Osirian as the character has a basis there.
Zootcat wrote:
If you want to stop Cheliax from gaining sway in the Inner Sea Region, joining a different faction would be more effective. This is because not only would Cheliax miss out on your faction point, but your new faction would GAIN a faction point (assuming you were successful in your mission).

This idea was originally inspired by politics. I've *always* voted for one party, my father has *always* voted for the other. We sometimes discuss politics, and I'm never going to sway his way of thinking, and he's never going to sway mine. At the end of the day, all my vote achieves is to cancel out his vote.

I hear you both on this point. It would be really nice if the database kept score of a faction's wins AND LOSSES. But if it doesn't keep count of faction losses, then my fails really aren't affecting Cheliax in any meaningful way, and I'd be better off scoring a WIN for an opposing faction (eg Andoran).

The thing is though, even if my fails aren't recorded, it's the roleplaying opportunities that appeal to me more. Being able to read Chelish faction missions and messing with them is worth more points than I could ever score playing an opposing faction, particularly considering the individuals I game with!

Paris Crenshaw wrote:
While I agree that this is an evocative and clever concept, I do think that it goes against the spirit of the organized play guidelines.

For convention play, most definitely - but I've already state that I won't be playing this character at conventions. For a home game among friends who game together regularly and are used to subterfuge roleplaying? I think it's lifting the game to a level we enjoy playing.

Paris Crenshaw wrote:
The way you describe it, the character's main motivation is to make sure that other characters are unable to complete their faction missions. He may not be swinging a sword at the characters' heads, but this little cleric is definitely engaged in player-versus-player activity.

It's not so much stopping other players completing their faction missions - I'm cool with allowing other players their points - I just want to fail my own faction missions and record zero points. However, I admit that in some situations, either both succeed or both fail, it might not be possible for both players to enjoy a "win/win" (or "win/fail" as the case may be) situation.

My players have been long-time Living Arcanis gamers, and they're very familiar with screwing each other over for secret society (faction) missions, and we tend to challenge each other in this direction in good-natured fun.

I'll give you an example from yesterday's game (spoilered for #11 The Third Riddle):

Spoiler:
Cheliax faction mission: retrieve a leather-bound journal (or a copy/transcript of the same). There is only one such journal in the adventure (hence the copy/transcript option, should there be two or more Chelish faction players in the same session, so they can each meet their faction goal).

Fearful of traps, the Ranger of the group adopted the habit of throwing his torch down the corridor ahead of us to light the way and hopefully spring any traps before we did. He tossed his torch, and it landed next to a book! I was immediately fearful that the book would go up in flames, so I said (recklessly ignoring any possible danger from traps) that Slip throws himself down the corridor onto the book! to save it from being consumed by flames.

Immediately recognising the book for what it was, I didn't let it out of my grasp. Of course Selin was interested in the same book. I said I'd write a transcript for her (but of course my transcript secretly swapped out details for erroneous facts before passing on to her, thus sabotaging the Chelish mission).

This could be looked upon serveral ways:
a) Slip sabotaged her copy, so she shouldn't gain prestige points for this mission; or
b) technically, she successfully returned a transcript of the journal to her contact - neither she, nor her contact recognise it's a fake, but she gains a prestige point for completing the assignment none-the-less.

But, you know, a player of ANY OTHER FACTION could also have retrieved the book first, and kept or burned it, particularly after realising a Chelish player was interested in it! So while faction missions aren't being written to directly conflict or oppose each other, there are still plenty of opportunity for canny players to thwart each other's faction missions.

I discussed this with the GM and player after the game, and we'll be reporting 1 point for Selin, and 0 points for Slip.

Paris Crenshaw wrote:
I'm glad that you're open to hearing other people's thoughts on this.

Thanks :-) I do welcome everyone's opinions, and I realise it may seem like I'm going against popular opinion here. However, what works for a home game may be different than how you would play at a convention.

I am genuinely interested to hear if people think I'm playing totally counter to Pathfinder Society and have Joshua J. Frost abseil down from a black stealth helicopter with a dozen secret service operatives bust into my living room to take my game out - OR - if this is the way you'd all secretly LIKE to play Pathfinder Society factions if it suited your gaming group?

Actually, I'll see if I can encourage my housemate to post his thoughts to this thread too, as it's his character that Slip's faction sabotages affect, and his response has been "this is great, bring it on!"

His Chelish character has quickly gained a reputation for being "a nasty piece of work" unchecked for a while now. Slip has given him something to think about. He's taken to calling Slip an "anti-halfling"! in much the same way as one might describe an "anti-paladin".

This morning my housemate was saying that he's happy with gaining a faction point for yesterday's game, because it would be unfair to steal his faction point from right under his nose while he was oblivious to any threat. In fact, his character still isn't aware of any opposition, so he'll play her no differently. But once Selin twigs onto Slip's faction and sabotage, the gloves will be off, and he's looking forward to competing for faction points!

When Josh was asking what we would like to see in Pathfinder Society prior to it's launch, I expressed my distaste for the way Living Arcanis secret society missions set up direct player-vs-player conflicts. I have seen too many convention sessions come to a halt while two players and a GM argue about who has possession of a mission object, one player trying to keep it, the other trying to destroy it. I've seen grown men I've respected as players suddenly throw tantrums and walk away from a table mid-game leaving the other players stunned. I do not want to see this happen EVER in Pathfinder Society, and I think the documented guidelines, and writing adventures without conflicting faction missions go a long way to encouraging a fair play environment that everyone can enjoy.

Unfortunately, that's sometimes what happens when random strangers who take the game too seriously come together at a convention to play a session. We've roleplayed similar situations in home games, and enjoyed the challenges, intrigues, double-crossings, all in good humour without ever taking things personally. It amounts to knowing your players style, how far you can take things, when to back off. The game is not about winning, it's about the experience. Pathfinder factions are great for this kind of play, but it needs to be in the right environment.

1/5

One problem with this concept is that if you play in a group with another Chelaxian, and they managed to complete their faction goal, because you are both at the same table, you both get the faction point, so in the end, even if you weren't trying to add a point to Cheliax, you would, automatically, because of how the system works.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Can you be a cleric of Norgorber in organized play? As a neutral cleric, I believe you need a neutral parton, and you aren't allowed to be evil. I might have the cleric alignment rules mixed up though.

5/5

yoda8myhead wrote:
Can you be a cleric of Norgorber in organized play? As a neutral cleric, I believe you need a neutral parton, and you aren't allowed to be evil. I might have the cleric alignment rules mixed up though.

A cleric must be within one step of his deity, and as Norgorber is NE, the only non-evil option is N.

In the 3.5 PHB (under "Alignment" in the Cleric section) it states that Clerics can only be true Neutral if their deity is also. That is not stated in the Pathfinder rules, but Pathfinder Society is under 3.5.

So you're right, it actually shouldn't be allowed, technically. This restricts PFS clerics from all NE gods, but leaves them the CE and LE (using CN and LN as their alignments).

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Ouch! How did I miss that? It's the first line of the Cleric class:

www.d20srd.org wrote:

Cleric

Alignment

A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful-chaotic axis or the good-evil axis, but not both). A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral.

I was aware of the "within one step" part, but missed the "may not be neutral" part.

I'm going to have to adjust Slip's alignment away from true Neutral and revise my Deity choice.

I was wanting to go with something that wasn't Asmodeus, but would give Selin a run for her money (any suggestions?)

But thanks for calling me up on this, GMing Pathfinder Society at Arcanacon next weekend, I'll need to be aware of such things.

Stay tuned ...

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Argh! Norgorber was the perfect choice. Trickery fit well with Slip's devious character, and I like the idea of a halfling with the Death domain - people always under-estimate halflings. Though I didn't want to play an evil halfling, really he upholds some admirable qualities, a freedom fighter against slavery, trying to undermine Cheliax from the inside, etc.

I wanted to play him as the unassuming type who occasionally goes nova when fighting for his cause - or maybe an innocent who through a life of Chelish slavery has picked up some distateful (Death domain) methods.

I was initially drawn to Norgorger after reading his mention on the halfling page in the Campaign Setting hardcover. It's a real shame I can't play him as a true Neutral.

It will probably require a significant re-write or reconcepting my character now. It's unlikely I'll find another Deity with Death and Trickery domains. Definitely have to give this one more thought ...

Sovereign Court 4/5

Try again once PFRPG takes control. It just might have a more sensible alignment system.

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Hmmm ...

www.d20srd.org wrote:
If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities.

So is there anything preventing me from choosing Death and Trickery domains and following my own moral code? Kind of makes the "may not be neutral" part a bit of a toothless tiger then, doesn't it?

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

DarkWhite wrote:

Hmmm ...

www.d20srd.org wrote:
If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities.

So is there anything preventing me from choosing Death and Trickery domains and following my own moral code? Kind of makes the "may not be neutral" part a bit of a toothless tiger then, doesn't it?

I don't believe there is anything preventing that. You'd miss out on the favored weapon proficiency that would come with worshipping a real god though.

5/5

DarkWhite wrote:

Hmmm ...

www.d20srd.org wrote:
If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities.

So is there anything preventing me from choosing Death and Trickery domains and following my own moral code? Kind of makes the "may not be neutral" part a bit of a toothless tiger then, doesn't it?

Go for it! It's what my halfling with cleric levels did :) I guess I just can't see the holy roller halfling.

2/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
yoda8myhead wrote:
I don't believe there is anything preventing that. You'd miss out on the favored weapon proficiency that would come with worshiping a real god though.

You mean a real God of War, surely. You don't get the free proficiency unless the god has the War domain.

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Recently Slip played a scenario with fellow Chelish faction member Seline. The Chelish faction mission was to retrieve a specific item, which I'll refer to as "maguffin" to avoid any scenario spoilers.

During the game, Slip approached a new Andoran character, and revealed himself as a freedom fighter, and offered to assist the Andoran with his faction mission if he would destroy any maguffins he found during the quest, as they bring bad luck. Seline would expect something underhanded from Slip, but never from another player. The Andoran player agreed.

Seline did find the maguffin herself, and promptly placed it within her backpack, at which the Andoran player immediately said "I take out my sword and strike at Seline's backpack!" I was gobsmacked! Firstly, I thought Seline found the maguffin first, so she rightly gained her prestige point for it, Slip wasn't going to contest the issue, he realises he can't foil every Chelish faction mission. But I never in my wildest imaginings expected the Andoran player to follow through on his agreement so immediately and thoroughly! The GM stated "you hear the sound of something crush within the backpack". Seline reached into her pack, and withdrew the broken maguffin as astounded as any of us. When asked why he attacked her pack without any provocation, he merely replied that maguffins bring bad luck and must be destroyed.

I was reeling. If the Andoran or Slip had found the maguffin first, and broken it ourselves, that would have been fine, but breaking it after Seline had already claimed it just seemed unfair, vindictive, and against the spirit of organised play. I felt guilty for what I had set in motion.

I didn't want too deny Seline her prestige point under these circumstances, so I decided that the Chelish faction mission only required the return of a maguffin, and that our contact wouldn't know the difference between the specific maguffin, or one purchased in the market. So at the conclusion of the scenario, Slip purchased a look-alike maguffin and gave it to Seline, at which my jaw dropped when she replied "Oh thanks, but I already have one" (dejavu, Monte Python and the Holy Grail) and asked the GM to reveal a note she had passed to him early in the game.

On reading her faction mission, and suspecting that some foul-play might occur, Seline slipped the GM a note saying she was going to purchase a duplicate maguffin for the purpose of slight-of-hand switcheroo in case anyone tried to make off with the real one. So in fact it was the fake maguffin that got crushed by the Andoran's backpack attack. Seline had elegantly anticipated and foiled Slip's double-crossing - I was impressed!

So Slip reluctantly earns his first Chelish prestige point for not foiling his faction mission.

Liberty's Edge 2/5

What a dick move.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Let me get this straight *Admitting I did not read the whole thread*

But you are playing a Society character of the Cheliax faction that is actively trying not to get the faction points by failing missions.

I have a problem with this.

By doing so, if you have another player in your group that is part of the Cheliax faction you would be going against them of getting the mission complete, even if all you did was knowingly not help them when you had the chance.

That in its self is a definition of Player vs Player and should never be allowed in a society game. as a DM I would never let you play that character and would make sure that you could not play that character at other conventions.

The last example you gave was an example of what i am describing.

Now if I have this wrong please tell me so.

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Dragnmoon wrote:

Let me get this straight *Admitting I did not read the whole thread*

...

Now if I have this wrong please tell me so.

As stated previously, I am only playing this character in slot zero home games, not at conventions, as I solely GM at conventions. After the first scenario with Slip, Seline's player is fully aware of the goings on, and this is ongoing friendly banter between the two of us players.

Slip is an experiment, largely inspired by Nic Logue's thoughts regarding Cheliax faction (refer second post in the Oddball Character Concepts for the Society thread). The concept took form when one of my players deliberately failed his faction mission because it ran against his moral code. It got me thinking, could a character successively choose to fail his faction missions? Thus Slip was born.

Others have pointed out that Slip may be more effective anti-Cheliax by playing Andoran faction himself, but that wouldn't put my theory to test. I'm still trying to reconcile whether it's possible to infiltrate a faction and work against them from the inside, without causing problems for other players, eg I lose my prestige point without jeopardising another player's point. I think it depends on the nature of the mission, eg Seline could return maguffin and collect her point, Slip could return a fake and lose his point. I know I'm playing devil's advocate.

Part of my purpose of posting Slip's misadventures here, are to gauge reactions from other Society players, and I expect him to be controversial. But please read the whole thread before knee-jerk reactions. You may still arrive at the same opinion, but at least it would be an informed one I might take to heart.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

If the character is not being put towards society play *Official society game home or convention* and not reporting the character towards society play, then you should have no issue.

But even Official Home games have to follow the society rules as stated.

Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play Pg 13 wrote:

Every PC in Pathfinder Society Organized Play is a

Pathfinder first and a member of their faction second.
At no point should you betray, harass, or murder another
Pathfinder in order to accomplish your missions. The
missions built into the scenarios for you to pursue are
designed to NEVER involve direct conflict with another
faction’s Pathfinders. Remember that you are pawns in a
massive shadow war, and escalating this to a hot war is not
in the best interest for any faction. Play it cool, do your best
to accomplish your missions subtly, and do not attempt
to derail the efforts of fellow Pathfinders, as this is more
likely to see you booted out of the Society more than it will
aid your faction.
The long term plans of your faction are clouded in
obfuscation and mystery. If you are kicked out of the
Society for interfering in another Pathfinder’s activities
or worse, for killing them, you will be of no further use,
and the damage you may have caused them by your brash
actions far outweighs any boon. Remember the shadow
war your faction fights is one of intrigue, not of flashing
blades and killing spells.

Now your last example you mentioned that, fit this exactly.

When you are going against the Faction Mission, especially when there is another member of your faction in the game you are interfering with anothers pathfinders activities.

The game you are playing and the character you are playing is not playing within the society guidelines.

But if it is just a home game to test the stories out and not counted in anyway towards the society or any of the other characters are either then have fun!

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Thanks, Dragnmoon, you raise a good point - Society members should never harass, betray or derail the efforts of other society members. Even though this may be a home game, results are being reported, and while I'm not playing Slip outside of my home game, the other players do play their characters at conventions, and so we should all play to the same standard.

I have always been a vocal opponent to Living Arcanis style mission conflicts that lead to player vs player conflicts at public events where players may be unfamiliar with each other and take things personally, however was always of the view that if players enjoy such in-character challenges in their home games and are adult enough to resolve them responsibly then no harm done.

I think as a Society GM, I have a responsibility to learn from this example, and uphold the letter of the rule in both games I run at conventions and those I play at home, as an example to others who play Society games.

But that was always part of what playing Slip was about - testing the boundaries so I'd know where to draw the line as GM if I saw other players pushing the boundaries.

I think I'll still play Slip, as I really enjoy his concept. I don't see anything inherently wrong with choosing to forego your faction mission, as legitimately demonstrated by another player whose mission ran against his moral code. The concern here appears to be interference with other players missions. If I choose to play Slip only in sessions without other Chelish characters at the table, OR tow the line when there are (you have to choose your battles, and know when to avoid suspicion), that should alleviate any organised play concerns.

As I said, Slip is an experiment, and I'm not opposed to considering feedback and refining him to make him a better character, or myself a better player or GM.

Sovereign Court 4/5

This concept of deliberately failing faction quests got me thinking of a more likely scenario which wouldn't require a character explicitly built around the idea.

A paladin of <Faction>, who would find something evil and/or wrong in the faction's quest might not be willing to do the job. But would the paladin allow other members of the faction commit the same deed the paladin deems evil? I highly doubt that, at least from a role-playing perspective.

For those who have played #14 (Many Fortunes of Grandmaster Torch...

Spoiler:
The Qadiran mission is to have Belal Al-Sarif die in agony. This incorporates gruesome murder and the use of poison, both quite against the paladin's code. One might argue the paladin's code of conduct follows a very western ideal, possibly incompatible with different cultural, e.g. Qadiran. Nevertheless, I'd imagine the paladin to demand a fair trial to the traitor instead of a straight-forward death.

Depending on the GM, that could also fulfill the faction quest and earn the presige award.


Returning to the subject of Slip, it must be noted the players must know of Slip's intentions beforehand to avoid from real player vs. player. Seline had probably dug up some dirt around Slip's persona and was able to make a fool-proof plan.

I must say though the Andoran's direct assault was strictly against the rules. What would you think if someone suddenly drew a sword and swung it at your backpack? I'd imagine the whole group turning against this lone assailant.

Slip is a controversial character concept, I can't deny that. But you can't deny it's a very dangerous concept, and can easily sour faces if all the pieces don't match just right.

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Deussu wrote:
I must say though the Andoran's direct assault was strictly against the rules. What would you think if someone suddenly drew a sword and swung it at your backpack? I'd imagine the whole group turning against this lone assailant.

I don't want anyone judging the Andoran player too harshly, as he may be reading this. He was aware of the set-up between Slip and Seline, we're all good friends, and enjoy a bit of friendly challenge between us, and I pretty much set him up for what transpired.

The Andoran player was roleplaying an elf from distant lands, with slow, stunted speech, trying to fathom the culture of these strange folk he now adventures with, and perhaps trying to fit in or find his role among us. His roleplaying was rather convincing, and unlike any other character I've seen him play.

In that context, my suggestion that maguffins brought bad luck, so the only safe thing was to destroy them, may have seemed odd, but plausible to someone from a different culture. That he followed through so thoroughly with desposing the maguffin surprised me, but I suspect he was playing a bit of cat among the pidgeons with Seline and myself, no harm was intended. It made for a most entertaining session.

Sovereign Court 4/5

If it was done among good friends, no problem. Such spectacles must be avoided if there's at least one new guy in the group. Might get the wrong picture or something.

Liberty's Edge

DarkWhite,

if you and your group are having fun, and OCC you all know how and where is this going then I don't see the problem.

this rule is created to have no troubles between players IC, if IC everything is fine... then I don't see why they attack you.

about no Neutral followers of Norgorber this is silly since there is stated that there are those who are Neutral and dedicated entirelly to gaining secrets


If you're choosing to play a PC who fails his missions on purpose, you'll be denying him access to items. This may not seem like a big deal now, but in Season 1 it'll be a huge deal and it'll put you way behind on the gear curve.

I'd strongly suggest you not make this choice.

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Montalve wrote:

DarkWhite,

if you and your group are having fun, and OCC you all know how and where is this going then I don't see the problem.

this rule is created to have no troubles between players IC, if IC everything is fine... then I don't see why they attack you.

about no Neutral followers of Norgorber this is silly since there is stated that there are those who are Neutral and dedicated entirelly to gaining secrets

Thanks Montalve, it's refreshing to read some words of encouragement ;-)

Slip seems to have generated some amount of negative response from others in this thread. I was inviting discussion and expected some controversy, so fair enough. But it's a home game, we're having fun with it, and I was hoping to move beyond "don't tread on other players" if the other players are cool and playing along with it.

I was more hoping for discussion around what consitutes failing a faction mission, particularly when playing with another player of the same faction, without denying them their prestige point.

In the example above, if Seline successfully returns the maguffin, most would say that Slip also earns a prestige point, even if he didn't contribute to it's return. However what if Slip turns up 10 mins later and hands in a fake maguffin, how does that affect his faction mission?

I'm really going to try avoid stepping on Seline's toes to achieve Slip's goals (moreso than I have previously) if both can achieve our story goals, or foregoing my goals so as not to derail hers. I do think I need to make that adjustment within the spirit of organised play, just to demonstrate that Slip can be played as a non-disruptive character, and enjoy a different range of in-character challenges.

Slip is definitely not my regular style of character, I'm much more accustomed to playing pacificst monks! This is very much a learning experience for me, and I'm not opposed to adjusting my style as I play Slip, but I do have goals I wish to learn from this.


The system doesn't have any way built into it to accept "faked" mission items. You either accomplish it or you don't. Unless I'm reading you wrong ...

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

If you're choosing to play a PC who fails his missions on purpose, you'll be denying him access to items. This may not seem like a big deal now, but in Season 1 it'll be a huge deal and it'll put you way behind on the gear curve.

I'd strongly suggest you not make this choice.

Thanks, Josh.

Someone mentioned item access above, and I hear your advice. But for me exploring the concept outweighs the disadvantage.

As I almost exclusively GM, Slip is an experimental throw-away character I use for occasional slot zero sessions when I can get someone else to run a game. More to prove the concept of a character infiltrating and working against a faction can be done, and exploring the questions this raises along the way. If it reaches a point where Slip as a character is no longer viable, well that's one possible conclusion to this experiment :-)

If I successfully complete occasional faction missions to avoid raising suspicions (particularly when playing with other players of the same faction, I may have no choice but to accept mission wins), I'll probably accumulate some prestige points anyway. Not sure if this will be enough to keep Slip viable, but we'll see.

Another possible outcome is that Slip discovers some other way to reconcile his differences with his faction. For now, I can't picture it, but as the character develops, you never now what might happen?

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Joshua J. Frost wrote:
The system doesn't have any way built into it to accept "faked" mission items. You either accomplish it or you don't. Unless I'm reading you wrong ...

There have been occasions when an original, or a copy of a document are required. If handing in a copy, there is opportunity to submit mis-information, thus sabotaging a faction mission.

One would assume that in some instances eg, retrieve a personal item from subject A, that your faction contact has no way of knowing whether you returned a personal item from subject B, either mistakenly or intentionally, unless scrys or other magical methods are used to verify the authenticity. At least in a story sense versus a rules sense.

Sorry if I'm testing the boundaries. I'm certainly not trying to challenge you, and very much welcome your point of view.

Cheers :-)

Liberty's Edge

DarkWhite wrote:
Thanks Montalve, it's refreshing to read some words of encouragement ;-)

No problemo, I always aim to whatever bring more fun to the players, doesn't always works...

also I know my players, I know they are unable to do scenarios in less than 8 hours :P

and already prohibited me from using them :P

they say they want to play their backgrounds :P so now I am forced to work :P

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Montalve wrote:
DarkWhite wrote:
Thanks Montalve, it's refreshing to read some words of encouragement ;-)

No problemo, I always aim to whatever bring more fun to the players, doesn't always works...

also I know my players, I know they are unable to do scenarios in less than 8 hours :P

and already prohibited me from using them :P

they say they want to play their backgrounds :P so now I am forced to work :P

OMG! Your players too? I thought my home group were the only ones that played Society scenarios in 8 hours instead of 4?

Seriously, when I playtest a slot zero for my home group, it takes 8 hours, and then I wonder how I'm ever going to run it in a 4 hour convention session? But my players love to explore their backgrounds, which extends play-time considerably. To be fair, there's also social chat and it always takes longer running a scenario for the first time. I think I'm getting better, though, at encouraging the social chat during moments I'm looking stuff up, and directing focus back to the game when I'm ready to continue. However, in a convention situation, you don't have that luxury (time), so you keep things moving.

When I run the same scenario at a convention, I find it still usually runs a little over the recommended 4 hours and can feel a bit rushed toward the end, but it's still around half the time my home group played in.

Tip for Josh: including encounters marked "optional" if pressed for time, as per the Cathedral encounter in Silent Tide, is very much appreciated.

Liberty's Edge

i played just once in a convenction, and was asa player... I died heroically 10 minutes after 30 minutes of making a character... je about 10 years ago :P

actually Slave's pits from Absalom took them 2 sesions of 8 hours :P

but they were having to much fun :P

of course I do not apply them or update nothing about their achievements during the scenario, I just mix the story with ours.

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