I've always found the lack of a "Divine Trickster" class (divine casting and sneak attack progression) to match the Arcane Trickster somewhat odd.
Is it something to do with "ultimate offense" of sneak attack combined with "ultimate defense" of cleric spells?
Is it considered too weak with so few ray spells (since that seems to be the obsession with Arcane Tricksters)?
I'm not really suggesting it's needed in core, but I've often thought about allowing this (given all the Trickery Domain deities), and have been puzzled at the lack of discussion on it.
Would 3/4 BAB be at all appropriate? (Just because both "base" classes get it doesn't make it balanced with a dual progression class).
Thanks for any thoughts!
-Majuba
P.S. I really am looking for just a cleric/rogue class, not for anything vastly more specific than that.
Very few prestige classes combine those abilities without simply having its own spell list - which is very annoying if one also wants to increase one's clerical spellcasting.
However, I have found such a prestige class in the Complete Adventurer. It is called the Shadowbane Stalker, and it improves pre-existing divine spellcasting 8 levels out of 10. There are some other goodies too, but that's good enough for me!
The Shadowbane Stalker is connected with the Shadowbane Inquisitor, and they share a common organization (the Order of Illumination) in the write-up. It is focused on rooting out evil. If that flavour does not appeal, it should be possible to tweak the class to suit one's own campaign (see under the "Adaptation" paragraph).
I have a feeling that there might be some other possibilities, maybe in the Complete Scoundrel or Champion, but it will be a while before I can get at my books. (I have to eat now.)
Hope this helps! :)
Edit: oh, yeah, the S. Stalker has nothing to do with Golarion/Pathfinder, it's pure WotC (although it might have seen light first in a Dragon issue).
In Races of Stone there is a Divine Trickster PrC. Its for gnomes, but could be tweaked if needed.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
There was a version of the divine trickster over at giant in the playground. The basic problem with the combo is that there isn't a lot of synergy - the abilities just don't work very well together. The arcane/rogue combo makes a lot of sense - both classes are lightly armored and focus on dealing damage. Wizard spells do a great job of supplementing and augmenting the rogue's abilities (e.g., invisibility plus stealth skills foils most detection systems, there are a number of buffs to make up for the lack of armor, teleportation will get you out of a dangerous scouting location, etc.)
The cleric just doesn't work that well with the rogue. It's designed to wear heavy armor and work as part of a team providing healing/buffing. The rogue wants to maneuver into flanking/hiding position or be ahead of the party scouting and as a result, isn't in the position you would want for it in order to provide healing/buffing. In addition, the cleric spell list is too defensive and not as utilititarian.
The focus of the two component classes is just so different that it's really hard to figure out what the intersection would look like. If you were to do a divine trickster, you'd probably want to make it more like the assassin, with a limited and narrowly targeted selection of divine spells. The rogue just doesn't have a good use for most cleric spells and the cleric doesn't have a good use for stealth or sneak attack.
Hmm.. so the general impression is that a direct translation of Arcane Trickster to Divine (dropping the legerdemain perhaps) would be underpowered if anything?
See I like Cleric/Rogue, and have one at 3/3 now, and I'd like to keep it going without totally killing the spell casting (particularly since it's a DM helper-pc).
I do think they synergize quite well on the "no worries about arcane spell failure" front. Also can sneak attack undead now.
In Races of Stone there is a Divine Trickster PrC. Its for gnomes, but could be tweaked if needed.
Actually the character *is* a gnome, and I actually have that book - thanks.
Thank you for the thoughts all!
I'm playing a halfling cleric/rogue in hopes of getting the Giant in the Playground prestige class and I can vouch that it is underpowered, particularly when it comes to dealing damage. It's good for small groups though since it fills two important roles, and you can get around the low damage problem by using poison weapons or sneaky things like caltrops and tanglefoot bags. Overall I'm really enjoying it.
We played a divine trickster (3 rogue/ 3 cleric then prestige class) we made up-- it started at 10th level and we went through to about 16th. It was very powerful at high level. He was a halfling dex based build. he was mobile and when he cast divine power (which he did all the time) he fought as a fighter with a few extra dice of sneak attack tore everything that was vulnerable to bits. because he could heal himself (and had good defences anyway) he didnt need to worry about getting trapped behind the lines as much. he made the rogue/ranger dual class totally redundant skillwise and was a better fighter. Essentially this class did everything.
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I do think they synergize quite well on the "no worries about arcane spell failure" front. Also can sneak attack undead now.
That's an interesting tact, which seems to almost favor the cleric side over the rogue side. I think that's probably your best route - instead of trying to be an arcane trickster, maybe look for (or create) a class that favors one aspect over the other and then identify the elements of the class that favor that aspect.
So, if you wanted to play a more cleric-ish rogue, you would really only be taking the sneak attack to juice up your melee damage. So, maybe take the rogue HD, keep the full cleric spell progression, and provide abilities that convert sneak attack into something else, such as negative status effects, or provide bonuses when the class flanks. That will push the class into being a more front line combatant (like the cleric) who favors flanking over hiding to obtain sneak attack. If you provide additional bonuses for flanking (particularly to the other person providing the flank) that will naturally flow into the cleric's role of assisting the rest of the party. Given that the cleric has so many touch spells, maybe you could even have the option to forego sneak attack damage to cast a spell instead. So, anytime you are eligible for sneak attack damage, you could instead channel an inflict wounds spell in lieu of the sneak attack damage.
If you wanted to play a more rogue-ish cleric, I'd probably use the assassin as the starting point. This build seems a lot tougher to me, but I would probably do something like use turning to convert a non-sneak-attack eligible attack into a sneak-attack-eligible attack. Another ability could be allowing the rogue to use the cleric's divine powers to sneak attack creatures that are otherwise not eligible to be sneak attacked. That would give you a more well rounded rogue who can sneak attack just about anything using his divine abilities. Another option might be to add in the ability to use silent spell as a freebie so many times per day. Cleric spells like sending could be particularly useful if the focus is on the scouting aspect of the rogue.
Anyway, good luck in whatever you do.
Maybe some sort of synergy to delivering inflict/cure touch spells with the sneak attack?
Most of those early prestige classes (the ones that arent in splatbooks) were designed to "copy" early combos of multiclassing that were considered "sacred cows" to older versions of the game.
Magic-user/theif (arcane trickster)
Fighter/Magic-user (Eldritch Knight)
Cleric/magic-user (Mystic Theurge)
Were the most popular/powerful/useful.
The Cleric/theif and cleric/assassin were actually restricted at first to half orcs only.
And were considered "cultists of a dark religion"
In the DMG II there is a "Cultist" NPC character made up as an example.
Thats pretty much the legacy of the cleric/rogue.
It was never really a successful class combination, except for "flavor"
But seeing I just started play testing a half-orc wizard (who is going to be a raging eldritch knight) who am I to talk about odd?
We actually have a player using a sorcerer 6/barbarian 2/EK 5 to do an undead half vampire sort of thing (he took the barbarian levels to get in so he could get a bite attack to deliever vampiric touch with).
Personally if I had a player that had to have a cleric of desna /rogue/PrC I would just slightly alter the requirements of the Arcane trickster to:
Must have access to 1 of the following domains:
Travel, Trickery, Luck, or Charm
Then for class features I would:
Drop ranged legerdmain
Have the PrC give one of the above domains as an extra domain, or have it advance the domain they used to enter the PrC with, Player's option.
In the DMG II there is a "Cultist" NPC character made up as an example.
Thats pretty much the legacy of the cleric/rogue.
It was never really a successful class combination, except for "flavor"
I like the idea of a Cleric of Irori**/Rogue/Divine Trickster, as a seeker and 'acquirer' of knowledge, erspecially knowledge hidden in some secret books.
having more core book options for flavor would actually be nice, rather than 'just' the no-brainer 'extend the well working multiclass' PrCs
** Oghma for Ferun
Well, I went with giantitp.com's Divine Trickster, by Rich Burlew.
Here's the converted version:
The Divine Trickster
Requirements:
Alignment: Any nonlawful.
Skills: Bluff 6 ranks, Stealth 6 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks, Disable Device 2 ranks.
Spells: Ability to cast 2nd level divine spells. Access to the Chaos, Luck, or Trickery domains.
Special: Sneak Attack +2d6 class ability, Channel Energy class ability.
Class Skills:
The divine trickster’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Cha), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier.
Hit Dice: d8
Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The divine trickster gains no additional armor or weapon proficiencies.
Base Attack and Save Bonuses: Base attack bonus increase at the average rate. Fortitude saves progress at the prestige poor progression [(Level+1)/3: +0 at 1st, +1 at 2nd, +2 at 5th, +3 at 8th]. Reflex and Will saves progres at the prestige good progression [(Level+1)/2: +1 at 1st, +2 at 2nd, +3 at 4th, etc.]
Spells per Day: When a new divine trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (such as increased ability to channel energy or wild shape, or additional domain powers based on cleric level), except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before becoming a divine trickster, she must decide to which class she adds each new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
Surprise for the Dead (Su): The divine trickster learns to channel positive energy into a nasty surprise for undead who let their guard down. As a swift action, the divine trickster may expend one daily use of her Channel Energy ability in order to gain the ability to make critical hits against undead creatures. She may also make sneak attacks against all undead, including incorporeal undead. This effect last for 1 round per point of Charisma bonus the divine trickster has (minimum 1 round), and applies to all attacks made within that time. The trickster must still meet all conditions for a successful sneaks attack; that is, the undead must still be flat-footed, flanked, or otherwise eligible for a sneak attack, and must be within 30 feet of the trickster if the attack is ranged.
Sneak Attack (Ex): This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th). Sneak attack bonuses from other sources stack with this ability.
Trap Guidance (Su): The divine trickster gains special intuition into magical traps; at 3rd level, she may add both her Intelligence bonus and her Wisdom bonus to all Perception, Spellcraft, and Disable Device skill checks to find, identify, or remove magical traps.
Domain Flexibility (Su): Select one of the following domains to which the character has access: Chaos, Luck, or Trickery. The trickster may now stack her divine trickster levels with cleric (or other class) levels granting that domain for purposes of determining domain spells and powers granted.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su): The divine force the trickster serves subtly distracts nearby creatures from looking in her direction. Starting at 7th level, the divine trickster can use the Hide skill even when being observed.
Slippery Mind (Su): This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name, except that it is a supernatural rather than extraordinary ability.
Restrictions: The divine trickster is obligated to uphold whatever beliefs or mandates are given by the force that provides her divine spellcasting power; failure to do so will cause her to lose her supernatural abilities as she would her ability to cast spells.
Original copyright 2004-2006 by Rich Burlew.
But seeing I just started play testing a half-orc wizard (who is going to be a raging eldritch knight) who am I to talk about odd?
Since my *other* DM PC (in the Second Darkness campaign) just qualified for Eldritch Knight as a Barb/Wizard.. not so odd :) (Though I chose Moment of Clarity). Did you go Transmuter? (Str is at 22, can go up to 30).