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Having an enigma based on the meaning or spelling of an english word is already difficult for people who are not native speakers. Having one based on two similar-sounding english words
Please think of us, non-native speakers, and have mercy.
I've run that particular scenario twice. Both times the group consisted of 100% native Finnish speakers. Both times the riddle was solved within minutes.
Oh, and its Silent Tide, not Hydra's Fang.
While I wouldn't want word puzzles in every scenario (and they haven't been), I would hate to lose out on riddles and puzzles as an option for these or other modules. I'd actually prefer to see a bit more challenges like this than just combat.
Except that riddles aren't really the issue. Most riddles of the "what am I?" category -- like the famed Riddle of the Sphynx -- can translate pretty easily into different languages. It's the riddles like "I am at the beginning of Eternity and the end of Time and Space" that can't translate -- not every language is going to have the letter "E" at the right spot. I personally love riddles as a challenge, but the OP does have a point that those dependant on a particular language are not a good choice.
Director of Brand Strategy
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While I wouldn't want word puzzles in every scenario (and they haven't been), I would hate to lose out on riddles and puzzles as an option for these or other modules. I'd actually prefer to see a bit more challenges like this than just combat.Except that riddles aren't really the issue. Most riddles of the "what am I?" category -- like the famed Riddle of the Sphynx -- can translate pretty easily into different languages. It's the riddles like "I am at the beginning of Eternity and the end of Time and Space" that can't translate -- not every language is going to have the letter "E" at the right spot. I personally love riddles as a challenge, but the OP does have a point that those dependant on a particular language are not a good choice.
In these situations, however, every language has similar puzzles and there's no reason you couldn't substitute one of your native language into a scenario. I'm certain a simple google search would bring up pages for just about every language.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The problem is that the riddles in question involve modern English, which is, so far as we know, not the same as the Common tongue. (If anybody has any evidence to the contrary, great. I'd love to see it.)
Of course we're playing in our native languages, so "Common" comes out as whatever modern language we use. The same is true in Star Trek, when alien races go off and talk amongst themselves.
If a riddle involves word-play, the module or the DM needs to explain that "this puzzle depends upon Common being identical to English". Otherwise, it's insoluble.
As a general rule, our policy has always been to avoid wordplay puzzles or anything that involves a specific language (anagrams, spelling riddles, double-meanings, etc.). If one slipped through, that's our bad, but it's definitely not something we encourage.
Of course, as folks have noted, sphinx-y riddles that are strictly logical can still be fun if handled correctly.
For future reference how do you guys feel about numeric ciphers? ;)
For future reference how do you guys feel about numeric ciphers? ;)As a variable, on average I find them mean, but some folks like the standard deviation from the norm.
Nice.
I've run that particular scenario twice. Both times the group consisted of 100% native Finnish speakers. Both times the riddle was solved within minutes.
Oh, and its Silent Tide, not Hydra's Fang.
I love Finnish for its easily conjured palindromes.
Oh! Two of my favorite riddles.
What's brown and sticky?
** spoiler omitted **What's brown and rhymes with Snoop?
** spoiler omitted **
Those are good!
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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And racist!
How so? I expect racist statements to play into a stereotype or make a value judgement. This does neither.
This is another joke:
What did the Minnesotan say to the Pillsbury Doughboy?
I would consider that more racist, because it plays into a stereotype about Minnesotans.
But I should have opened up a new thread in Off-Topic rather than hijack this one.
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Creative Director
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My two cents:
Word puzzles should always be avoided in adventures. The problems with translating them are just too frustrating. In an adventure one writes for his or her own game group, this isn't a problem, but for a published adventure it's actually a HUGE problem. Number puzzles aren't AS bad.
Another problem is that word and number puzzles require a type of analytical thinking and problem solving that not everyone's good at. Worse, they ignore your character's skills. In an RPG, you don't have to be a world-class kung-fu master to play a monk, and you don't have to be able to change into an animal to play a druid, and you don't have to be a brainiac to play a bard with all sorts of ranks in Knowledge skills. Difficulties in the game are overcome by a fun combination of creative thinking and die rolls modified by your character's attributes.
Word puzzles and number puzzles ignore your character; you don't get bonuses, really, to solving something like this even if your character has, say, a 28 Intelligence. Not everyone enjoys word puzzles and number puzzles, and it's fair to say that a lot of folk are actually very frustrated by them.
So when you put a word puzzle or number puzzle into an adventure, you run a GREAT risk of annoying a lot of the prospective players. Especially if the adventure's constructed so that you can't progress without solving a puzzle. It's frustrating for players AND the GM if a word puzzle stumps an entire group; suddenly, the game turns from a game into a bunch of frustrated people sitting around a table.
And that plays into my final point: for Scenarios, you have 4 hours to start and finish the adventure. When you put a word puzzle or a number puzzle into an adventure like this, you're asking for players to waste time they don't have stumbling over a puzzle that, with the artificial limit on time they have to play, grows increasingly frustrating for the group to puzzle out. It's one thing to get to a barrier in game your group can't pass because they don't have the skills or resources (the level and tier system in fact works to ensure this doesn't happen), but it's another to hit a barrier that you can't pass simply because you're not as clever as the adventure writer thinks he is (a barrier that the level/tier system can't address, since word/number puzzles ignore the character sheet and attack the player's mind directly).
So in short: Avoid number and word puzzles in scenarios.
Racism is the belief that one race is better or worse than another based on genetically inherent capacities. I don't find Chris' joke racist, bigoted, predjudiced or bias. If the joke suggested that black folks were natural born entertainers or athletes, that would be a different story altogether. Racist and unfunny.
I feel I have to make this point now that the word racist has been connected to my appreciation of a joke, as I'm not well known for race hating and I'd like to keep it that way.
I would consider that more racist, because it plays into a stereotype about Minnesotans.
Minnesotans are a seperate race?! That explains EVERYTHING!
For future reference how do you guys feel about numeric ciphers? ;)
Fibonacci, it's as easy as 1, 1, 2, 3
I was born in a cross-fire hurricane, and I howled at my ma in the driving rain. Who am I?
Word puzzles and number puzzles ignore your character; you don't get bonuses, really, to solving something like this even if your character has, say, a 28 Intelligence.
This is very true. When word puzzles or pattern puzzles show up (like the Rainbow-pattern in Whispering Cairns), it's best when the adventure provides Knowledge/Intelligence/Other checks to get clues. That way, a clever player who figures it out can still feel clever (and it can be explained away as a Fighter-esque stroke of Brilliance), but if the players are stumped, the characters can still solve the puzzle based on their own abilities.
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Racism is the belief that one race is better or worse than another based on genetically inherent capacities.
I guess it depends on your definition of racism. Many people consider that racism is simply making a difference between two people based solely on race (ie the "color" of their skin).
Based on this definition, focusing on a guy's skin color can feel disturbingly close to racism.
I must say that whan I read the joke I felt a little uncomfortable because of this exact point.
EDIT : oops, sorry, I am hijacking my own thread :-)
For future reference how do you guys feel about numeric ciphers? ;)Fibonacci, it's as easy as 1, 1, 2, 3
I tried those Fibonacci-Newton cookies once, but they made my head hurt.
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Creative Director
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James, don't word puzzles, riddles, and the like have a deep heritage, both in earlier editions of the game and in the base-line literature of the genre?
It's not as exciting to hear: "The sphinx challenges you with a riddle. Make a DC 15 Int check to succeed."
They do. I'm not saying they don't have a place at all. I'm saying that in Pathfinder Scenarios, they don't really have a place and are not really good design.
And frankly, I'd rather hear "The sphinx has a riddle for you. You can answer it (and get a CR 2 award), or you can get a hint with a DC 20 Knowledge (history) check and get a CR 1 award, or you can answer it entirely with a DC 30 Knowledge (history) check and get no award but you can go on with the adventure."
Things like riddles, word puzzles, and the like should be used sparingly, and not in adventures intended to be run in time-limited environments like the Scenarios, is what I'm saying, I guess.
James, don't word puzzles, riddles, and the like have a deep heritage, both in earlier editions of the game and in the base-line literature of the genre?
It's not as exciting to hear: "The sphinx challenges you with a riddle. Make a DC 15 Int check to succeed."
This is very true. When word puzzles or pattern puzzles show up (like the Rainbow-pattern in Whispering Cairns), it's best when the adventure provides Knowledge/Intelligence/Other checks to get clues. That way, a clever player who figures it out can still feel clever (and it can be explained away as a Fighter-esque stroke of Brilliance), but if the players are stumped, the characters can still solve the puzzle based on their own abilities.
Sticking these two together as a question/answer to lead into my contribution...
When I work out adventures, I do love inclusion of puzzles when appropriate. I feel it ties in with the heritage Chris mentions as well as helping break the combat cycle into other challenge types. However, I strive to include in-game options for the solution as well as allowing the player's out-of-game knowledge. Of course, I usually do this with most challenges, with multiple options to overcome any challenge (you can talk your way by the guard, engage in combat, sneak by, call on a higher authority through diplomacy, etc.).
On an entirely side note, I'm considering using the Bloxorz puzzles in a game sometime to represent a keyed entry system..."You see before you a hollow cube carved of stone. As you approach, square-topped pillars rise up from the base to form a pattern. One pillar supports an odd, metallic block. Attempts to lift the block from the surface reveal that it will not rise off the top of the pillars, but it can be flipped on its side or ends and thus can be moved around the pillars. If moved to an area not fully supported by stone pillars, the block falls back into the cube and the pattern reforms..."
EDIT: And as James mentions, I have included decreasing XP awards based on how many clues a party needs to overcome a puzzle.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I was born in a cross-fire hurricane, and I howled at my ma in the driving rain. Who am I?
It's nice to meet you, but I simply can't guess your name.
And for the record, Chris, my racist accusation was more a throwaway response to your joke which referred to skin color. I'm not that ultra-sensitive or PC.
Racism is the belief that one race is better or worse than another based on genetically inherent capacities.I guess it depends on your definition of racism. Many people consider that racism is simply making a difference between two people based solely on race (ie the "color" of their skin).
So blonde jokes are still OK? :-)
I was born in a cross-fire hurricane, and I howled at my ma in the driving rain. Who am I?It's nice to meet you, but I simply can't guess your name.
And for the record, Chris, my racist accusation was more a throwaway response to your joke which referred to skin color. I'm not that ultra-sensitive or PC.
Jumpin' Jack Flash, at your service.
Small mercy at this point, it wasn't my joke.
Not PC? I always thought of you as a player, and a real character.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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For future reference how do you guys feel about numeric ciphers? ;)As a variable, on average I find them mean, but some folks like the standard deviation from the norm.
So, if they're a variable, their entire effect would be subject to the empower cipher metamagic feat, or would only the die rolls be affected?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I think riddles and puzzles that allow knowledge, profession, craft, or intelligence checks to yield 'hints' allow a great combination of intellectual challenge for the players and with a game mechanic that helps those who are ... well ... kind of dumbasses. It also gives something back to those who betrayed their over-optimized party by wasting ranks in 'character background' skills.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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On an entirely side note, I'm considering using the Bloxorz puzzles in a game sometime to represent a keyed entry system...
*clicks on Bloxorz link ... is never seen offline again*
*clicks on Bloxorz link ... is never seen offline again*
On an entirely side note, I'm considering using the Bloxorz puzzles in a game sometime to represent a keyed entry system...
Heh, sorry about that...it is freakishly addictive! It was the look and feel of the whole thing that got me to thinking about using it as an in-game prop for a game.
I just finished development on my 12th scenario and I can safely say #1 is still the only scenario with a word puzzle.
I just finished development on my 12th scenario and I can safely say #1 is still the only scenario with a word puzzle.
That's a shame. The puzzles in Silent Tide were fantastic and one of the things that sold me on the campiagn being more than just a series of dungeon crawls.
Perhaps rather than remove them entirely have a sidebar for GMs saying that if the party is unable to solve them after 2 minutes let them try a diasble device/open locks/diplomacy check (relevant to the situation)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Instead, they get audio tapes for their iPods. Wait, what?I tend to use their faction friends, failing that back to the singing telegram (erm... messenger) of yore.
Cheliax has a mission for you again
Doo-daa doo-daaSteal this ring or by devils be slain
All the doo-daa day.
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As I`ve read the posts, three viable design solutions make their way into my mind:
1. Keep the riddles and puzzles, where the story motivate them. They are fun and flavourfull. And challenging.
2. Always offer two solutions for solving: the riddle answer and the DC check. So the DM can choose the right one for his PCs. Maybe they stiil have time, maybe thez really enjoy mind challenges. If not, there is no problem, cause even the succesfull DC check can be seen as an big achievment for those in rush or more fight inclined. Not everyone can solve an Sphinx riddle, isnt?!...
3. For non-native english speakers make that side-note to explain clearly the meaning of the riddle or puzzle, so that those DM can translate them properly to their PCs.
This way, everyone will be happy... It require a litte more work from writters, but I think it is worthy for both sides...
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3. For non-native english speakers make that side-note to explain clearly the meaning of the riddle or puzzle, so that those DM can translate them properly to their PCs.
Regretfully, sometimes it is absolutely impossible, as was the case in the aforementioned module.
There is very, very little chance that two similar-sounding words in one language will translate as similar-sounding words in another.
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Indeed, in the case you presented, it looks a little discriminating... And this is something to not be done again, if Paizo want non-english buyers for scenarios and the Society program. Or, at least, the autors should offer an alternate riddle for non-englishers...
Also, as it is part of an official competition, I think it would be fair if Paizo will release a kind of WE/eratta with another riddle for the named scenario.
I am from Romania and I understand written english very well. But, as the globalization open new markets, the publishers must understand that is hard for us, the "outsiders" :), to keep the pace with the autors every new invented playfull word. As in our languages case, the new expresions could be very cool, but if the reader don`t understand them, it is like they don`t exist for him/her. Of course, there is google and there is wikipedia, but I think that a box for these special cases would be fair game for us.
On the other hand, Paizo knows the countries of the subscribers and if only a few of them are non-US and non-UK, I can understand that there are no commercial reasons to sustain such a special treatment.
Regretfully, sometimes it is absolutely impossible, as was the case in the aforementioned module.
There is very, very little chance that two similar-sounding words in one language will translate as similar-sounding words in another.
While organized play doesn't normally allow for modification of the scenarios, gamemasters have an obligation to treat their players fairly. In this case, I would expect a GM whose group didn't speak English to substitute a more appropriate puzzle.
I've run that scenario six times now and particularly like that scene. It took a bit of coaxing to draw some of the players out of their "I roll my Open Locks" mentality, but once they got into it, they had a great time.
I should point out, as well, that in the first 32 scenarios there is one word puzzle and that was in #1.
James, don't word puzzles, riddles, and the like have a deep heritage, both in earlier editions of the game and in the base-line literature of the genre?
It's not as exciting to hear: "The sphinx challenges you with a riddle. Make a DC 15 Int check to succeed."
They do. I'm not saying they don't have a place at all. I'm saying that in Pathfinder Scenarios, they don't really have a place and are not really good design.
And frankly, I'd rather hear "The sphinx has a riddle for you. You can answer it (and get a CR 2 award), or you can get a hint with a DC 20 Knowledge (history) check and get a CR 1 award, or you can answer it entirely with a DC 30 Knowledge (history) check and get no award but you can go on with the adventure."
Things like riddles, word puzzles, and the like should be used sparingly, and not in adventures intended to be run in time-limited environments like the Scenarios, is what I'm saying, I guess.
I agree completely.
As I play these games to have fun, the last thing I want to do is have to "think" (I am paid to do that). Heck, I even hate adding up numbers (I do that all day too).
Basically, if someone wants to solve a riddle, let them. I just want to kill stuff and take their loots. If the game grinds to a halt because noone wants to solve a puzzle, then that is not much fun.
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I should point out, as well, that in the first 32 scenarios there is one word puzzle and that was in #1.
As the master of the Society, Josh knows best...
Checked now and seen that Black raven has quoted a wrong scenario. And I was too lazy to to look at it. Mea culpa...
Anyway, is not such a big deal. The Pathfinder is such a big project, that is inevitable to have some bugs at the begining. As any new game...
The main ideea was about language accesibillity...
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3. For non-native english speakers make that side-note to explain clearly the meaning of the riddle or puzzle, so that those DM can translate them properly to their PCs.
Regretfully, sometimes it is absolutely impossible, as was the case in the aforementioned module.
There is very, very little chance that two similar-sounding words in one language will translate as similar-sounding words in another.
Come on Black Raven, it took you less than five minutes to find it ... stop complaining !