How's it start?

[Fletch]

Rise of the Runelords had a great campaign introduction just by virtue of the goblin attack.

Curse of the Crimson Throne followed that up with a really clever PC tie-together and the targetted revenge on Lamm.

What hook kicks off Second Darkness?

I suppose I *could* wait until my Christmas-money fueled Paizo Shop-o-Rama, but I figured I'd ask here anyways just to see what others thought about it.

[Ross Byers]

Second Darkness kicks off with a gambling tournament interrupted by a robbery.

[Candide]

It starts with the "Cheat the Devil and Take His Gold" tournament. I personally LOVED the opening night/theme of the tournament. It felt like standard fair D&D wise, but also felt new and exciting...like all of Pathfinder supplements do.

[Fletch]

Are all the PCs entrants into the tournament?

[Jodah]

Spoiler:

All the PCs start off in riddleport, and happen to be attending the tournament at the golden goblin. Each should have a reason for being there. Before the tourney can end, there is an attempted heist of the grand prize (5000 sp, If I recall correctly). the PCs are assumed to intervene, and afterwards, the owner (an retired crimelord) offers them jobs as his goons. Its a bit like Gangs of New York in the beginning, though Saul later proves to have CBD and double-crosses them. good times are had by all

[Illessa]

Jodah wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

What he said, they need some reason to be in the vicinity of the tournament, but they don't need to be participating necessarily, f'rinstance, the archivist in my group had a room at the Gold Goblin because they're cheap and was hanging around the tournament area because it was too noisy to concentrate, and the two Shoanti just followed the crowds heading there at opening and stuck around to watch the strange games of the cityfolk... the other two players actually participated and had won quite a bit of money (they were quite the Golem sharks) before it all went wrong :).

[Stewart Perkins]

All being said, I can see why you would feel that in comparison there isn't a unified start for this AP, but from running it if you can get the players to make that leap of all of them being together then it plays itself out for good or ill (mostly good). However having been said that I must say a few thoughts on the way the adventure goes that I would have changed to make it feel more real

Spoiler:

Saul gets the pcs as his lackeys gets them doing stuff, builds there rep and then tries to arbitraily off them.... WHY? See it states that he knows there expendable and blah-blah. However it just felt like there could be more, and my players were really wanting to figure out why he did it. Simply stating cause he's evil just hurts how good the story is as written. If I could do it again I would insert the set piece and maybe have the various groups Saul wants revenge on cause them trouble and maybe even start dipping towards buying off the party or something so that Saul thinks theyve betrayed him and tries to off them or he gets caught working with bad guys or just something so his motivation makes him as manipulative as his personality seems to indicate.... just my 2 coppers

[thelesuit]

Stewart Perkins wrote:

All being said, I can see why you would feel that in comparison there isn't a unified start for this AP, but from running it if you can get the players to make that leap of all of them being together then it plays itself out for good or ill (mostly good). However having been said that I must say a few thoughts on the way the adventure goes that I would have changed to make it feel more real

** spoiler omitted **

Stewart can you give specific examples? I am slated to run SD here in the near future and any insight folks who have run it can provide or areas they would like to improve would be very helpful.

Thanks.

CJ

[Stewart Perkins]

thelesuit wrote:

Stewart Perkins wrote:

All being said, I can see why you would feel that in comparison there isn't a unified start for this AP, but from running it if you can get the players to make that leap of all of them being together then it plays itself out for good or ill (mostly good). However having been said that I must say a few thoughts on the way the adventure goes that I would have changed to make it feel more real

** spoiler omitted **

Stewart can you give specific examples? I am slated to run SD here in the near future and any insight folks who have run it can provide or areas they would like to improve would be very helpful.

Thanks.

CJ

Well I'll give you my particular parties interactions withn the adventure and what I would have changed to bvetter give you an idea of what I presumed needed strengthening

Spoiler:

My party was introduced with the majority of them all being attendees of the tournament, the two warriors were friends who came to drink and get rich, the rogue had no money and basically "acquired" his entrance fee, and the monk was there as a servant of justice looking for a criminal (he has since taken rogue levels and I think is going for bounty hunter). The first part goes as per book and the group being the only ones to put up a fight and seem to know what went down (the rogue had spellcraft and was able to identify what spells caused the ruckus) they were hired to track down the two that fled (Angvar and his girl). Afterwards Saul hired them as per the book. (As a side note I wish I would have just found a way to have them have better interlocking backgrounds, but I digress) They then proceed to go through the various few weeks of Saul's work and actually for the most part really turn around his business. They take care of his loan shark, and all that jazz, deal with the incursion and all of Zinchers shenanigans, etc. (the elven rogue immidiately decided to make "friends" with Samaritha upon meeting her, even going so far as being the one to get her the job and offering her Angvar's spellbook, this has been an awesome development as it has proven very helpful in getting them where needed without railroading) During this time the party does various things in riddleport to each get some spotlight into their own thing. The monk spends time looking into the background of the half-orc monk who attacked as part of the invasion of goblin, while one of the warriors made really good "friends" with a lady named Lavender Lil (even so far as to make a very expensive dea with Zincher to get her off the hook so to speak). Then Saul's betrayal. Here is where it felt flat to me. He was making money from them (lots actually they all were afdding to his proffession check every week) they were nearly blindly doing whatever he wanted and never noticed anything shifty, they bought his stories about being retired, everything. Then he tries to off them and they never get why, becuase I dont truly get why he would have and if I would have had a lil more prep and some forethought he wouldnt have, not as written. They would have seen him disappearing and somehow noticed money draining regardless of how busy they were, I would have had more backalley offers from Zincher, and the other bosses, and Kwava would make a mysterious appearance and question them about who Saul works for and with.... things to make them paranoid and make them go to him and maybe ask him what's up. Suddenly he feels like he's been found out and thus betrayal as he's written. He then feels more alive and when they ask him "Why?" He can give them a speech about knowing when betrayal is coming and how he's seen their double dealings, and that "Saul Vancaskerkin is no one's fool. You betray others before they betray you!" That would have tied the begging together so much more to me and I think my players would have been much more statisfied with the fight. But C'est La Vie. Hope you get some use out of this long winded rambling. :P

[thelesuit]

Stewart Perkins wrote:

Well I'll give you my particular parties interactions withn the adventure and what I would have changed to bvetter give you an idea of what I presumed needed strengthening...

Spoiler:

Stewart Perkins wrote:

As a side note I wish I would have just found a way to have them have better interlocking backgrounds, but I digress

No that is not a digression at all and really central to my concerns about this AP. I'm still hunting for the perfect "connection" between the PCs. I'm not fond of "you all meet in a bar/casino". So thoughts you have on improving this would be greatly appreciated.

I think your points on solidifying Saul's reasons for betraying the party are spot-on. I will be heeding your advice about how to make it seem truer to the Saul's character.

Thanks again for your insights and assistance. I'm really looking forward to running this AP.

CJ

[Stewart Perkins]

thelesuit wrote:

Stewart Perkins wrote:

Well I'll give you my particular parties interactions withn the adventure and what I would have changed to bvetter give you an idea of what I presumed needed strengthening...

** spoiler omitted **

Thanks again for your insights and assistance. I'm really looking forward to running this AP.

CJ

I'm Glad. As I've said it's been a blast and my players love it. Its one of the few games that when a player has met his end he wasn't upset, or anything he was excited. There are some great encounters and a nifty plot if you can get your players to bite the hook of the "boogeymen". some interesting ideas I did have for putting characters more slightly involved are as follows:

Spoiler:

As I used a bounty hunter background for one pc he was there looking for a criminal, whom I might suggest turns out to be the Splithog pauper. Maybe have any elven pcs working as "sub-contractors" for Kwava and investigating the goblin since Kwava has been ran off after causing too much ruckus after snooping so he has hired the pcs to infiltrate for him. Cyphermage wannabes obviously have to eat, and since smaritha gets a job there while waiting so can a pc. These are all good hooks, and one I thought of afterwards would be for a pc be one of Angvar's thugs who for whatever good reason turns on them and helps defeat them and gets hired by Saul.

hope any of those help.

[Fletch]

Because the article on the planets of the Golarion solar system interested me more the Riddleport Gazetteer, I bought the issues out of order and just picked up Children of the Void instead of Shadow in the Sky.

I was very surprised to see that there's an assumption that the PCs might have come into ownership of a business in the previous adventure. That discovery completed an idea I'd had about the recent two APs.

1) The hook for Crimson Throne is inspired (seeking vengeance against a local criminal) but doesn't hold well past the first chapter. This vigilante group of criminals or victims is expected to seek out a position in the city guard?

2) The opening act of Second Darkness gives the PCs a chance to own a business but, by issue 2, is giving advice on how to ditch it since it will be difficult to manage it AND continue the AP.

The idea I had was to switch the two kick-off premises. Mind you this is still having not seen the actual adventure that starts Second Darkness.

A) Crimson Throne starts with the PCs gaining ownership of the business in Korvosa. As chaos hits the streets, the PCs join with the City Guard to help stop the riots, but it's their ties to their business that drives them to stay in the city and keep it safe.

B) The crime-addled Riddleport seems a more likely place for a bunch of PCs to gather to seek vengeance on a minor crime boss who'd wronged them in the past. Once together and victorious over Lamm, they can set off on the path of the rest of the AP.

The biggest loss to the switch is the loss of the Harrow Card schtick in Crimson Throne. It's not critical to the Path, though. In the end it could be used to the same effect in Second Darkness.

Any thoughts? For those of you who've read the Shadow in the Sky, would the Lamm hook work there like I think it would?

[Stewart Perkins]

Fletch wrote:

Because the article on the planets of the Golarion solar system interested me more the Riddleport Gazetteer, I bought the issues out of order and just picked up Children of the Void instead of Shadow in the Sky.

I was very surprised to see that there's an assumption that the PCs might have come into ownership of a business in the previous adventure. That discovery completed an idea I'd had about the recent two APs.

1) The hook for Crimson Throne is inspired (seeking vengeance against a local criminal) but doesn't hold well past the first chapter. This vigilante group of criminals or victims is expected to seek out a position in the city guard?

2) The opening act of Second Darkness gives the PCs a chance to own a business but, by issue 2, is giving advice on how to ditch it since it will be difficult to manage it AND continue the AP.

The idea I had was to switch the two kick-off premises. Mind you this is still having not seen the actual adventure that starts Second Darkness.

A) Crimson Throne starts with the PCs gaining ownership of the business in Korvosa. As chaos hits the streets, the PCs join with the City Guard to help stop the riots, but it's their ties to their business that drives them to stay in the city and keep it safe.

B) The crime-addled Riddleport seems a more likely place for a bunch of PCs to gather to seek vengeance on a minor crime boss who'd wronged them in the past. Once together and victorious over Lamm, they can set off on the path of the rest of the AP.

The biggest loss to the switch is the loss of the Harrow Card schtick in Crimson Throne. It's not critical to the Path, though. In the end it could be used to the same effect in Second Darkness.

Any thoughts? For those of you who've read the Shadow in the Sky, would the Lamm hook work there like I think it would?

To be quite honest if you really wanted to do this it would work well enough as to be honest

Spoiler:

basically the pcs just need to find the drow in the basement so to speak to get to the point of the first one and if you just have them find the drow workin for Saul or Lamm or whoever then you could continue as needed

But I personally think the first adventure isa good one if you can puzzle out and fix the few things that most of us find odd. :P