Endless Night : Drow player alignment motivations and new poly spells?


Second Darkness

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Ok, so I'm relatively surprised that noone has said anything about the sidebar telling the DM's to "take it easy" on the alignment watching.

Can the module be asking DM's to railroad the PC's any harder?

I have a pally and a good aligned Cleric player that I am worried about when they get to this part of the AP.

Undoubtedly they will struggle with some of the decisions that need to be made while engaging in the secret agent in disguise stuff. And if I let "evil" stuff slide they will undoubtedly sense my lack of consistency and start wondering if this stuff is "supposed to be happening."

any suggestions on an alternative path for a good aligned party to take through #16, other than assulting the entire city.

also, what is with the new Transmutation/Necromancy spell? Elven necromancers??? why not just use Shapechange with elven researched Permanency? why all the needless fire-ringed-hoop-jumping?


There is more of a problem with paladins than with just good characters, mainly because their code forces them to be even more scrupulous than than lawful good alignment would indicate, including not lying, which you could argue walking around in a dead body saying you are someone else is.

I think most good characters will be able to remain good by remembering that they are walking past a few evils in order to stop villains that are about to cause the death of probably millions of people, not to mention the other ramifications of their act.

Personally, I don't think this requires "going easy" on alignment, but rather taking the long view and actually trying to think like the characters would. But yes, paladins are going to be hard pressed. I'd say that the "going easy" thing might apply to them in that its hard to tell someone that they can't play a certain class, although the Savage Tide was indeed an issue for paladins as well.

As for the elven necromancer . . . I didn't have any problem with that. For one, the Mordant Spire elves (Golarion's Grey Elves) are suppose to be steeped in magic, aloof, and more neutral than than other elves. The spell in question is a bit strange, but doesn't strike me as blatantly evil, and reinforces the strangeness of the Mordant Spire elves.

(I know, technically its animated a dead body, but the energy animating the bodies isn't their own remaining animus, but the souls of the PCs, so I think it kind of makes sense)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

That sidebar was mostly in there for one reason: a plea to GMs who enjoy punishing paladins (and to a lesser extent good or lawful clerics and to an even lesser extent good and lawful characters) by robbing them of their class abilities for any perceived slight against the code. As a result, we've got generations of paladins who are so hardline about being what their player interprets as LAWFUL GOOD that those paladins are almost unplayable in any adventure, let alone one that's based on being deceptive and a double agent in an evil society. In a lot of ways, in my experience at least, paladins cause more party disruption and player grief than evil characters do, which is kind of lame; paladins are supposed to be the GOOD guys, after all.

The sidebar is basically just trying to remind GMs that you shouldn't overly punish paladins and other characters just because they happen to be on an adventure where they'll have to make some tough moral choices.

As a side note: I think that being presented with Sophies' choices as a paladin is important. There shouldn't always be a perfect solution, especially for a character whose ethos is so strict as a paladin. They'll be forced to make not totally good choices at times, and this adventure sets them up with a lot of them. What should a paladin disguised as a drow do when he sees a matron whipping a slave? If he tries to save the slave and rescue him, he basically reveals himself (and probably the party as a whole) to be intruders, and suddenly you've got a good chance of a TPK on your hands. The paladin may have saved a slave, but he essentially handed the drow the keys to seeing their plan come through as a result. No... the paladin should be forced to make those tough decisions and should try to go for the lesser evil; and the GM should take that into account and only really penalize the paladin with alignment change if the player of the paladin is willfully being chaotic or evil and never bothers to seek atonement for the minor acts of lesser evil for the greater good.


James Jacobs wrote:
As a side note: I think that being presented with Sophies' choices as a paladin is important.

I've certainly noticed this trend with some of the adventure paths. Personally, I think "choose between two evils" is a pretty railroad-y thing for a DM to do. I'd much rather see dilemmas along the lines of "you have two paths: one path is hard and morally gray, and one path is very hard and is the right thing to do" rather than saying "well, you don't have a choice anyways, so don't worry about doing something a little bit evil".

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I haven't read more than a few pages so far, but I see a paladin wearing the Drow skin and taking orders temporairly from the Drow as a way to achieve a greater good, they do not have to do evil.

They use constraint when surrounded by evil - they know that to attack when there is no need will draw the wrath of the Drow and they will not be able to achieve the greater good (they can always kill them later).

They do not have to perform evil acts - just because they are told by an evil person to kill another evil person, that is staying in their code of slaying evil (so long as they do not use smite evil, no one will know they are a paladin).

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hogarth wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
As a side note: I think that being presented with Sophies' choices as a paladin is important.
I've certainly noticed this trend with some of the adventure paths. Personally, I think "choose between two evils" is a pretty railroad-y thing for a DM to do. I'd much rather see dilemmas along the lines of "you have two paths: one path is hard and morally gray, and one path is very hard and is the right thing to do" rather than saying "well, you don't have a choice anyways, so don't worry about doing something a little bit evil".

Well... the paladin is defined by his adherence to his code. If nothing ever happens to make him butt up against that code... what's the point of having the code in the first place? I mean, if he never gets into a situation where he has to make hard decisions, why bother having a paladin code at all?

And to be honest, there IS a "very hard" path in the adventure. That path is to not do the disguise at all but to infiltrate and/or attack the city of Zirnakaynin to find out what's going on. We've put enough info into the adventure and the gazetteer so that if folk want to take this route, they absolutely can. It's not the adventure we wanted to publish, but it's absolutely an option and the gazetteer and the adventure itself CAN support that plot. Just needs a bit more prep from the GM's side.

If, on the other hand, you have a standard PC group and a paladin's a part of that group and the rest of the players are ones who are okay with or excited about the double agent plot, then the paladin's player's going to have some tough choices.

We chose to do the double-agent route, by the way, since it's not a plot I've seen done much as far as dow are concerned. Usually it's about "attack the drow" or "Infiltrate the drow like ninjas" or whatever. A "pretend to be drow and find the info without exposing your true nature" makes for a much more interesting adventure, in my opinion, since it's not been done to death with the drow before, and that's certainly one of the goals for Second Darkness; to present drow adventures that are different in some way.


I think that an adventure can only do so much to present possible courses of action that PCs can take, but a lot of options that the PCs might come up with can't possible be codified by the writers and editors of a given adventure.

When I've written my own adventures and campaigns, I usually try to come up with "what if the PCs do A, B, or C," and my players often come up with "D, E, or F" that I never thought of, and I know the people I'm playing with.

That's not to say an adventure shouldn't try to figure out possible alternate courses of action by any means, just that often PCs think of ways out of hard situations that the best GMs or designers would never come up with on their own.

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KnightErrantJR wrote:
I think that an adventure can only do so much to present possible courses of action that PCs can take, but a lot of options that the PCs might come up with can't possible be codified by the writers and editors of a given adventure.

This is absolutely true, which is why we try to simply assume the "most likely route" through an adventure and then try to put in as much side details as we can fit into that adventure (and into the various support articles). That way, when the PCs get creative, the GM has a lot of tools to use to handle whatever it is they come up with.

I've long said that it takes 4 roles to run an adventure. The writer, the developer, the editor, and the GM. In some cases, these roles can be done by the same person, but in any case it's up to each role to try to cover everything possible for the other three, and as often is the case, it falls to one person to make up for deficiencies left by the other roles.

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Cohlrox wrote:
also, what is with the new Transmutation/Necromancy spell? Elven necromancers??? why not just use Shapechange with elven researched Permanency? why all the needless fire-ringed-hoop-jumping?

Because Shapechange and it's friends show up under Detect Magic, that's why.


James Jacobs wrote:
Well... the paladin is defined by his adherence to his code. If nothing ever happens to make him butt up against that code... what's the point of having the code in the first place? I mean, if he never gets into a situation where he has to make hard decisions, why bother having a paladin code at all?

I absolutely agree; paladins should have to make hard choices.

But like I said before, if you want to force tough decisions in an adventure, then it seems only fair to detail the ramifications of the individual decisions. Sticking in a sidebar telling DMs to take it easy on paladins who take the easy way out seems like a bit of a cop-out to me. Note: I haven't read this adventure, so I'm almost certain I'm misrepresenting what the sidebar says.

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Ross Byers wrote:
Cohlrox wrote:
also, what is with the new Transmutation/Necromancy spell? Elven necromancers??? why not just use Shapechange with elven researched Permanency? why all the needless fire-ringed-hoop-jumping?
Because Shapechange and it's friends show up under Detect Magic, that's why.

More to the point, they needed a disguise that wouldn't get seen throw by true seeing; that's the big thing. This new spell defeats that method, since it magically creates a non-magical disguise. It bends the rules of magic, and is the secret weapon if you will that lets the elves try this gambit in the first place.


Lawful good doesn't mean lawful stupid. Too many players and DMs tend to play lawful good that way. For instance, in Curse of the Crimson Throne, I'm willing to bet most people playing a paladin would opt to try to off Laori the moment they figure out what her deal is. Why? Because she's evil! EEEEVIL!
And where does it say that paladins can't lie? There's telling a lie, and there's doing what is tactically necessary.
People like their D&D black and white. This adventure is a way to introduce a whole lot of grey, and can present an opportunity for some challenging rp.
As for making players choose between two evils, I don't see this as railroading. Being made to choose to let something evil go to achieve a greater goal is something that happens in real life. Maybe not to the average person walking down the street, and not everyday, but it happens.


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James Jacobs wrote:

Well... the paladin is defined by his adherence to his code. If nothing ever happens to make him butt up against that code... what's the point of having the code in the first place? I mean, if he never gets into a situation where he has to make hard decisions, why bother having a paladin code at all?

Right on the money. This type of thinking is precisely why I keep giving large sums of money to Paizo every month.


I love to play Paladins, but admit that many people seem to have a hard time with them. Mostly, I think that's because the DM has not given enough thought about their use in the setting, and therefore cannot give the player good direction about what they should expect. In other words, players don't tend to roleplay Paladins. Instead, they try to anticipate how the DM will screw them, and thus play unstable characters.

First, I don't see Paladins as having cool powers, but the flaw of having to adhere to a code. Instead, I see Paladins as being the chivalric hero archetype that many people love to play. Doing what's right is hard and tough, and therefore the Paladin is given extra powers to make it easier for him to do so. If both DMs and players view it this way, I think roleplaying becomes much easier.

I dislike DMs who look for ways to take away a character's powers. It doesn't happen to any other class (not even with Clerics, really), so it should be a rare, rare thing for PC Paladins to fall from grace. I especially don't think Paladins should fall for reasons unknown to the player. Instead, only if the player CHOOSES to do something he knows is wrong because it is expedient should he lose any powers. It should not be because he accidentally violated some obscure subsection in a 500 page celestial guidebook unknown to him.

I don't like Paladins being portrayed simply as "holy warriors" which has become increasingly common. I really think the chivalric mentality is essential. If you are able to ask, "What would Galahad do?" and be able to keep the adventure intact, then there's really no problem with a Paladin being in the game. ONLY if a chivalric hero in your campaign/AP setting is unthinkable should a Paladin pose problems.

In many campaigns, the Paladin can become the "central" hero. He is obviously the charismatic forthright hero that inspires dedication. This is the Paladin as icon. But I think it is possible for a Paladin to be played as a supporting character in a setting like Riddleport. But first, the DM has to accept that being a chivalric hero is not impossible in those settings.

First off, Paladins are there to inspire people and champion chivalric values. He shows the promise of a Lawful Good society. Rather than take the proposition that the Paladin is inappropriate in Riddleport, people should see Riddleport as a place that desperately NEEDS a Paladin.

Second, the Paladin is a champion of the oppressed and wrong. Allow the Paladin to do so. Keep in mind to not do anything stupid. A Paladin choosing to appear in Riddleport needs to be aware of the challenges and dangers he faces. So he needs to use some of that high Wisdom and choose his battles carefully. Don't go after the high crimelords who run the city. Start small. Defy the bully who threatens the weak on that street corner. Tell the drug pusher that he is no longer welcome on that street filled with young children. Start small and build your reputation. Make good use of that charisma. Soon the discontented masses will rally around you. They'll expect you to fold when the bullies come back. Or to betray their hopes by making yourself the next local ganglord. Keep at it anyway and give them hope.

Yes, the bad guys will strike back. But if you choose your initial enemies carefully, you'll gain time. The big bad guys aren't going to waste their time on one small time guy in some small part of town. And precisely because the city is filled with discontented masses, they can't come down too hard on the local hero once they do hear about the stories. There is a scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark where Indiana Jones is in Cairo and the Nazis pull out their guns. The street children he played with earlier come out to grab "Uncle Indy" and do so under the noses of the Nazis. Because even the Nazis won't gun down small children (ok, they won't do it when they are guests in a seedy intrigue-filled city). Why? Because it'll cause too many problems and interfere with greater concerns. And that's what will initially protect the Paladin. Because if the crimelords kill the local hero, they may just start a riot as that discontented mass rebels. Sure, they'll crush it - but at what expense? How much profit will they lose, and over what? Remember, people are cynical (especially bad guys), and they expect the local hero to fail. No one is untouchable after all, right?

So don't be too hard on the Paladin.

But what about those times when the other PCs need to do something disreputable? I think the key is how you imagine the party. In the Iconic Paladin mode, the party is tightly knit and follow the Paladin on his heroic crusade. In this type of setting, the Paladin is not the center of the party. Instead, he is on the edge of the party. He tolerates "good hearted rogues." Yes, he hopes to inspire them to be better, but their heart IS in the right place. Instead of challenging them when they fail his ideals, he instead backs their play when they do fulfill them. And he makes use of them. He needs to keep his distance. He can't associate with any scandalous conduct. But these ARE the people he's come here to help (help, not lecture). So he knows their actions are expected. That they still perform feats of heroism is something he can WORK with.

The eventual end the Paladin is working towards is to give people hope and to set an example. By doing so, he can build a charismatic mass movement that will eventually overthrow the gangsters and reestablish justice and the rule of law. The Paladin is not a politician, and he knows this. He knows ultimately, he cannot make the kind of compromises necessary for ordinary life. He knows once he's done his job, he'll need to leave the people to govern themselves and leave them a sterling example and legend to succor them in times ahead. It's a lonely path, but in the meantime, he'll take what help and use what allies he has.

I think that is one possible example of how to make a Paladin work in a skullduggery type setting. Rather than be the heroic center, be the fringe guy on the edges (like how evil type characters like Raistlin are in more typical settings) and be willing to not ask too many questions. If your companions hearts are right (and they should be since you don't associate with anyone evil), things will turn out OK. Trust in God. After all, He's looking out for you, and so should the DM.

As for the exact event in question, I unfortunately don't have the issue and can't offer advice. But a reasonable DM should be able to assist things so that the Paladin can continue to adhere to his code even if it may mean the character is gone for a scene or two. If the player gets bored, this is what Henchmen are for.

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wspatterson wrote:

And where does it say that paladins can't lie? There's telling a lie, and there's doing what is tactically necessary.

People like their D&D black and white. This adventure is a way to introduce a whole lot of grey, and can present an opportunity for some challenging rp.
Paladin's Code of Conduct wrote:


A Paladin must remain truthful and forthright at all times.
A Paladin must give fair warning and due quarter to their enemies.
A Paladin holds stealth, subterfuge, attack from the rear, missile weapons and especially poison as weapons of last resort.

I agree that this adventure presents an opportunity for challenging role-playing. If the paladin can look at a matron beating a slave to death, shrug, and do nothing, then there's no challenge to the role.

The paladin might only see two choices: (1) to step in and possibly blow her cover or (2) to willingly sacrifice her code, step away from her paladin powers, and continue the adventure. Of the two, I'd say that the latter, if done with deliberation, knowing what's at stake, is the more heroic.

Or perhaps, the paladin might step in, in character, and offer to buy such a worthless servant from the matron. One good Diplomacy check later, the slave is rescued and perhaps grateful, the party's cover identities are still secure, and the paladin has stayed within the strictures of her Code.


I appreciate all the feedback from everyone, thank you

but, all of this is ground that has been covered over and over and this Paladin's Warhorse has been beaten to Celestial horse jerky over the past two decades

no, I am not on a personal quest of punishing Paladin players (personally I admire players who choose the narrow path of the Paladin, and in my playing days Paladin was one of my personally favorite classes to play)

The Black Fox wrote:
I think that's because the DM has not given enough thought about their use in the setting, and therefore cannot give the player good direction about what they should expect.

and I can assure you that my players who play Paladins clearly understand my expectations through the 2 page summary and code of conduct I share with them regarding the role of a Paladin in the campaign.

but a Paladin's code of conduct is fairly straight forward. They are the champions and exemplary specimens of their faith. Hence they are girdled with the divine powers of their deity to carry out their divinely appointed agenda of Good and Law on the Material plane.

Tolerating evil from traveling companions and/or committing evil acts would most assuredly bring down the judgment of their deity.

Chris Mortika wrote:

I agree that this adventure presents an opportunity for challenging role-playing. If the paladin can look at a matron beating a slave to death, shrug, and do nothing, then there's no challenge to the role.

The paladin might only see two choices: (1) to step in and possibly blow her cover or (2) to willingly sacrifice her code, step away from her paladin powers, and continue the adventure. Of the two, I'd say that the latter, if done with deliberation, knowing what's at stake, is the more heroic.
Or perhaps, the paladin might step in, in character, and offer to buy such a worthless servant from the matron. One good Diplomacy check later, the slave is rescued and perhaps grateful, the party's cover identities are still secure, and the paladin has stayed within the strictures of her Code.

And this response is EXACTLY the kind of exciting nail-biting tension and dramatic wise role playing decisions that I would LOVE and REWARD handsomely in this campaign. Unfortunately, these kinds of deft, intelligent and wise maneuvers are probably not going to be sustainable for the gauntlet of hard choices the party will have to endure for their visit.

But in the end, you know what I really want? I really want maybe a sidebar or a list of the “hard choices” made by good or Paladin players to get through this module without resorting to “Evil” behavior. I understand that this AP is probably best suited for a neutrally aligned party. But…

If there was going to be a sidebar asking us to take it easy on the Pally’s and good aligned players, a quick and dirty side bar listing at least 1 “Good” solution to each challenge would have been a handy-dandy thing to have. This way I could set up the players to face each of the challenges with potential “Good” solutions hovering nearby waiting for them to grab onto. I mean nothing complicated or taking up a whole page, maybe like one quick line per encounter suggesting a possible alternative route.

What is going to probably end up happen is that the players are going to end up feeling like I railroaded them into committing “Evil”.

About jumping through those flaming hoops…

James Jacobs wrote:
they needed a disguise that wouldn't get seen throw by true seeing; that's the big thing.

I don’t understand why there is much-ado about ‘detect magic’ or ‘true seeing.’

If my memory serves me correctly, only the final encounter during their visit really has anyone being super suspicious enough to be using these kinds of spells on the party. It’s not like everyone in the city walks around all day randomly casting these spells on everyone they meet? (or did I miss something and maybe they DO behave this way) Did I miss any other encounters or persons who would be likely to check out the PCs in such magical detail?

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Cohlrox wrote:

I don’t understand why there is much-ado about ‘detect magic’ or ‘true seeing.’

If my memory serves me correctly, only the final encounter during their visit really has anyone being super suspicious enough to be using these kinds of spells on the party. It’s not like everyone in the city walks around all day randomly casting these spells on everyone they meet? (or did I miss something and maybe they DO behave this way) Did I miss any other encounters or persons who would be likely to check out the PCs in such magical detail?

The thing is, though, that there ARE creatures and NPCs in the city who have true seeing going all the time... particularly certain demons and other powerful entities that are relatively common in the city of Zirnakaynin. It only takes one marilith or glabrezu or spell-caster with true seeing wandering through the city at the same time as the PCs to ruin the whole thing. Needless to mention all the dispel magics the PCs will probably be hit with...


I think the adventure gives DM's a perfect opportunity to allow ultra-good characters to succeed. All it would take is to add additional servant tasks that allow for a good result. If you look at the existing list of tasks, most of them don't even require anyone to do evil, but they *might*. During the course of the day, the good character may have opportunities to aid another servant, save one from death, take an undeserved flogging themselves, etc. In none of the written encounters or tasks are the characters required to slay, hinder or betray a good NPC. DM's may require that, but that's at the option of the DM.

While the paladins may have trouble serving the nobles of the house via diplomacy or perform, they should be able to grit their teeth and bear it for the 'greater good'.

This was a very ambitious module, and I think it was pulled off well. There's lots of background info on drow available to flesh out the city and inhabitants. I really appreciate that a good list of house inhabitants with a blurb for each was included.

Contributor

Cohlrox wrote:


I don’t understand why there is much-ado about ‘detect magic’ or ‘true seeing...

Did I miss any other encounters or persons who would be likely to check out the PCs in such magical detail?

Personally I would assume this to be every drow who can. As a paranoid, scheming race with a highly magical society detect magic is probably going to be one of the most cast spells in the city, from the houses of Eirdrisseir to the markets of Zirnakaynin. With one cantrip you can know if a passerby has magic possessions and roughly how many - being an instant judge of a character's wealth and deadliness. With one cantrip you can detect a magical augmentation, hinting at potential prowess or limitations. With one cantrip you can know reveal arcane disguises, suggesting whether or not someone has something to hide and, if they do, a secret to exploit. With one spell you can also reveal how powerful one's magic is, and the more powerful the active magics, the more powerful the person or the more significant the thing they're trying to hide.

As for how this might come up in "Endless Night," any PC who passes through the markets is likely to be scrutinized a half dozen times, either by spellcasters with the effect constantly going, or simply those with magic items designed exactly for that purpose (which would be cheep and easy to make as magic items go). Then there's Matron Vonnarc, a character so high-level and paranoid that she's got better things to do than sit around and listen to her family bicker, but you can bet she still knows what goes on in her house and that no newcomers take up residence without her scryed scrutiny. And then there's Alicavniss, who probably knows there's something up with the PCs within an hour of them entering the gates even if they don't radiate magic.

So yeah, while you're right that Joe Drow Guard, or even a schemer like Gaddak, might not notice magical auras right away, any drow looking for a mark, a target, or someone to exploit (especially some with an obvious "in" with a noble house) is going to see an active illusion or transmutation aura - especially a powerful one - as a GIGANTIC target reading "Here's someone with a secret. Here's someone I can use."

Also, remember that while Zirnakaynin isn't a mega-magic city like Axis, or Sigil, or Halarahh, or Sharn, or Dalaran (etc, etc), it's pretty close. As a GM if you want something to happen and you can rationalize it, it'll work. I'm not saying you should take cart blanche to screw the players, but don't go easy on them either. Zirnakaynin is Mordor and your PCs are hobbits... they shouldn't be giving anyone any a reason to even want to look under their little tea-kettle helmets.

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Not to mention that a variety of Demons have true seeing built in, and demons tend to hand around drow.

Scarab Sages

And with the Dark Adept feat every time the party encounter a drow of level 3 or higher, even a fighter-type, there's a reasonably high probability that they're going to have access to Detect Magic as a spell like (given the frequency of that feat choice among SD NPCs and Mooks). Sure it's only once a day, but it would probably only take some mildly suspicious behaviour for them to throw it up, just in case, and the second they see an illusion or transmutation aura on someone, that drow in-fighting/paranoia is going to make them jump straight to disguised assassin.


DMs should probably be urging paladins in this path to take the Grey Guard prestige class, from Complete Scoundrel. It's first level ability allows the PC to have heightened leeway in its Code by eliminating the XP penalty to Atone for deeds done in the line of duty without XP cost. If he's paired with a cleric, he can lose and regain his powers several times in this adventure alone. While I'm not a fan of this class and especially not a fan of its endorsement of grey guards using torture in the description of the class' abilities, it's pretty much tailor-made for this kind of thing.

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I just look at Paladins anymore as WWMCD? (What would Michael Carpenter Do?)

In the course of the Dresden Files he's:

  • Worked with a wizard who he knows has a fallen angel in his head.
  • Trusted, on faith, a vampire who all he knows about said vampire is that the above wizard vouched for him.
  • Worked with an entire council of Wizards who were planning to kill his daughter.
  • Worked with the minions of an organized crime lord.
  • Offered redemption to hosts of fallen angels.
  • Offered to make a deal with a Fallen angel to release a half dozen more fallen angels, and surrender a holy relic, all to save a girl for the Greater Good.

    Through all these grey areas and morally questionable choices, not only has he remained true to himself and his faith, he's retained his powers as a 'paladin'. Heck, at one point he asked for, and got, a pretty direct answer from the divine that was able to blow away a memory block put in place by the queen of the winter court.

    So yeah, I'd not cackle evily and expect the Paladin to charge in and stop the above mentioned beating, but I'd award extra XP if he managed to sneak in a lay on hands later.


  • Chris Mortika wrote:


    Paladin's Code of Conduct wrote:


    A Paladin must remain truthful and forthright at all times.
    A Paladin must give fair warning and due quarter to their enemies.
    A Paladin holds stealth, subterfuge, attack from the rear, missile weapons and especially poison as weapons of last resort.

    Why does no one pay attention to that clause? It doesn't say "never." It says "last resort." A paladin left with no other way to achieve good goals can resort to stealth and subterfuge. It says so right there.

    Contributor

    roguerouge wrote:
    DMs should probably be urging paladins in this path to take the Grey Guard prestige class, from Complete Scoundrel.

    Hah! Funny. Those guys and the malconvoker are my two favorite classes from that book. :P


    actually, I think Im going to decide to houserule that all paladins alignments must match their Deity

    and since Pelor is Neutral Good, the code of conduct for a Paladin of Pelor is going to be much much more forgiving than say the code of conduct for a Paladin of Herionious

    thanks everyone for your input, I didnt realize that Demons were running so rampant through the city. I also didn't realize that your average drow had such easy access to detect magic.

    Population wise, what would you say would be the rough make up of the Drow population in terms of class?

    I was using page 138 and 139 of the DMG to get a general idea of the population make up of a Drow society and using those numbers I would have thought that about 3.5% of an average population might have access to Detect magic. Maybe for a drow society those numbers might be much higher?

    Dark Archive

    I would [and could] argue that 1 in 5 inhabitants whould have access to such minor form of detection, via spell, ability or device. But far less than that number should have reason to be using such dectection on the pcs ... unless they bring such scrutiny upon themselves.


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    James Jacobs wrote:
    Ross Byers wrote:
    Cohlrox wrote:
    also, what is with the new Transmutation/Necromancy spell? Elven necromancers??? why not just use Shapechange with elven researched Permanency? why all the needless fire-ringed-hoop-jumping?
    Because Shapechange and it's friends show up under Detect Magic, that's why.
    More to the point, they needed a disguise that wouldn't get seen throw by true seeing; that's the big thing. This new spell defeats that method, since it magically creates a non-magical disguise. It bends the rules of magic, and is the secret weapon if you will that lets the elves try this gambit in the first place.
    James Jacobs wrote:
    Ross Byers wrote:
    Cohlrox wrote:
    also, what is with the new Transmutation/Necromancy spell? Elven necromancers??? why not just use Shapechange with elven researched Permanency? why all the needless fire-ringed-hoop-jumping?
    Because Shapechange and it's friends show up under Detect Magic, that's why.
    More to the point, they needed a disguise that wouldn't get seen throw by true seeing; that's the big thing. This new spell defeats that method, since it magically creates a non-magical disguise. It bends the rules of magic, and is the secret weapon if you will that lets the elves try this gambit in the first place.

    Personally, if I ever run this adventure path (big if, unfortunately, partly due to DM burnout, partly due to at least one player who hates drow in D&D like most people hate rats,) I'm probably going to go with something more like a rail-guided reincarnation spell designed to bring the PCs back specifically as drow. Maybe not exactly like a reincarnation, but close and modified from it.

    Before I read the adventure, that was actually my first guess as to how a disguise could possibly work in such a paranoid, magically endowed, and xenophobic society as the drow... because the characters have actually become drow.

    There are a lot of things I can fiddle with there about why there's a time limit the PCs need to adhere to:

    Perhaps a controlled reincarnation is inherently unstable (since it isn't supposed to be under the caster's thumb,) and unpredictable mutations (lying dormant in the genes, not magical,) happen to subjects that don't get it in time.

    Perhaps because reincarnation was never meant to be temporary (within this life,) if they don't swap back to normal by that time, they'll be stuck this way.

    Perhaps because drow are inherently suffuced with evil energy (from Rozavug,) that's how long they have until it starts to overwhelm them and they go native.

    ---

    That said, Paizo's idea is cool too, and I don't think an elven necromancer is inherently off the wall. The elf-like Sidhe are connected to the dead in Real-world legend.

    Liberty's Edge

    I just read the first two pages of PF 16; the whole thing with the

    Spoiler:
    polymorph into a drow thing is badass!!! I love stuff like that. It's like when Kirk got did up like a Romulan to go deep cover.
    WRT the whole alignment railroad complaint......couldn't care less. The ploy is so novel, I'm like....meh....find another straight up game to play a dang paladin in. It's cool.

    Contributor

    Heathansson wrote:

    I just read the first two pages of PF 16; the whole thing with the

    ** spoiler omitted **

    Yay, glad you like, man. Personally I think its a fascinating choice, I'd love to play a paladin through this. It's gotta bring up some great choices over the course of one's stay in Zirnakaynin. Should I interject to save an evil creature from other evil creatures? Will blowing my cover and sacrificing myself to indulge my morals further the desires of my god? Will my deity understand me sidelining his tenants for the sake of saving the world? Interesting stuff.

    Also, it'd be intriguing to see how a GM might handle this. I mean, as a GM with a paladin player I would take into account the intentions of a paladin's actions, not just a literal if X then Y interpretation of the rules. As the paladin himself, if permitting a lesser injustice prevents a far greater evil, I would hope my all-knowing immortal deity would understand my small mortal judgment call.

    But again, that's my game, and I'm also the kind of guy who - opening up a whole can of worms here - would say Ozymandias was lawful neutral.

    The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

    F. Wesley Schneider wrote:

    Also, it'd be intriguing to see how a GM might handle this. I mean, as a GM with a paladin player I would take into account the intentions of a paladin's actions, not just a literal if X then Y interpretation of the rules. As the paladin himself, if permitting a lesser injustice prevents a far greater evil, I would hope my all-knowing immortal deity would understand my small mortal judgment call.

    But again, that's my game, and I'm also the kind of guy who - opening up a whole can of worms here - would say Ozymandias was lawful neutral.

    Ozymandias? Clearly good-intentioned. (Devoting years to saving the world; that's good.) Clearly chaotic in his means to accomplish that. Methodical, planning, yes. Working within the framework of society's norms? That's the conflict.

    But that's besides the point...

    As I mentioned upthread, part of being a paladin is coming up with solutions that both meet the letter of the oaths you've sworn, and also accomplish your tasks. Any ol' lawful good character can grimmace internally as he witnesses some atrocity and then carry on with his crucial mission. It's up to the paladin to figure out how to reconcile the atrocity and fulfill her mission as well.

    If the published adventure or the DM rules that she can't do both, then the DM needs to re-examine something.

    Contributor

    Chris Mortika wrote:
    If the published adventure or the DM rules that she can't do both, then the DM needs to re-examine something.

    Good call. I would completely agree that, like with alignment, the strictures of a what does or does not offend a paladin's code of conduct or counts as an "evil" act is totally up to the judgment and philosophies of the GM, which is hopefully in sync with or are is at least understood by his players before such questions come up. I mean, the two lines defining "code of conduct" or a descriptor as arbitrary as "evil" can't be expected to account for the infinite possibilities deities, their tenets, and the case to case situations faced by their followers. That's what makes having a GM to interpret stuff - you know - kind of handy.

    Liberty's Edge

    F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
    Heathansson wrote:

    I just read the first two pages of PF 16; the whole thing with the

    ** spoiler omitted **

    Yay, glad you like, man. Personally I think its a fascinating choice, I'd love to play a paladin through this. It's gotta bring up some great choices over the course of one's stay in Zirnakaynin. Should I interject to save an evil creature from other evil creatures? Will blowing my cover and sacrificing myself to indulge my morals further the desires of my god? Will my deity understand me sidelining his tenants for the sake of saving the world? Interesting stuff.

    Also, it'd be intriguing to see how a GM might handle this. I mean, as a GM with a paladin player I would take into account the intentions of a paladin's actions, not just a literal if X then Y interpretation of the rules. As the paladin himself, if permitting a lesser injustice prevents a far greater evil, I would hope my all-knowing immortal deity would understand my small mortal judgment call.

    But again, that's my game, and I'm also the kind of guy who - opening up a whole can of worms here - would say Ozymandias was lawful neutral.

    I just think it's a freakin' GREAT backdrop for a paladin to go through a crisis of faith. I think it offers more of a story than it's getting credit for.

    My idea of a paladin is pretty much El Cid. Straight hardcore to the letter even if it kills him. Period. You stray from that, you're hosed. Sometimes you have to get dirty.
    It's like Job, man. That's where the good stories are.....
    I think it's more than fair to put paladins in a predicament. IMHO, it's the only damn reason to play one.


    I did some research recently for the NG pally

    and I stumbled onto this website

    there is even a basic test that you can take to figure out your alignment or even find your race, class and level. LOL, check it out!

    Neutral Good definition

    I think this guy does a wonderful job of outlining in succicent points the basic tenants of the 9 different alignments

    Im going to be using this to guide the Code of Conduct for my future paladins.

    F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
    as a GM with a paladin player I would take into account the intentions of a paladin's actions, not just a literal if X then Y interpretation of the rules. As the paladin himself, if permitting a lesser injustice prevents a far greater evil, I would hope my all-knowing immortal deity would understand my small mortal judgment call.

    and going to the posts about a LG deity having flexibility in the Lawful aspects of a pally's moral choices. If a LG deity were flexible with their code of conduct then they would be NG or CG, not LG. This inflexibility is exactly what makes "Lawful Good" = "LAWFUL" Good, not Neutral Good or Chaotic Good.


    I think what the sidebar and the authors are saying is more of a warning to Nazi DM's who go a little crazy with the Paladin hate. It's not saying to ignore the consequences, and it's not saying 'et them through with their powers no matter what' for the sake of the story. I read it as more of a reminder to allow your characters to find those creative solutions if possible, and to remember, as a DM, that you need to allow your players a little leeway when presented with an impossible choice.

    Do you really think it's in the best interests of the Paladin's god to take away his champion's powers because he was forced to ignore specific sins in order to serve the greater good? I am always very careful with strict adherence tot he "code" when DMing a Paladin character. I like to work under the old "spirit of the law" sort of thing. It's why the paladin is breaking (or keeping) the code that is more important than the fact that he is breaking some specific rule.

    One way to work it is to let your Paladin police him/herself. I think you'll find that they're pretty fair (they did choose to play a Paladin, after all) with the rules, and it allows them to decide how their character thinks/copes with his decisions, rather than you, as the DM doing that (the most frustrating thing, as a paladin player, is the feeling that the character is not 100 percent "yours." No other class really has to deal with that much interference/meddling from the GM).

    As for the sidebar, I like it for what it is. Adding specific ways out of the different situations seems like much more of a railroad to me (let your players think for themselves, and when they come up with an idea of their own, roll with it as the GM). I take it for what it is, a plea to give your characters a little slack before you pull the rug out from under them. Let them roleplay their way through the situation and all of its moral implications. If you're constantly policing what your paladin says/does/thinks you're basically playing their character for them.

    Contributor

    Cohlrox wrote:
    If a LG deity were flexible with their code of conduct then they would be NG or CG, not LG. This inflexibility is exactly what makes "Lawful Good" = "LAWFUL" Good, not Neutral Good or Chaotic Good.

    That is definitely a widely-agreed upon interpretation of the alignment, though you wouldn't see endless arguments over these nine descriptions if it were the only one. If that's the one you favor and it works for you in your game, run with it!


    For Paladins and other Lawful characters that engage in acts of deception, treachery, necromancy, and torture, the question of motivation may become important for evaluating alignment.

    If you are on a mission from God, and the command from God and the local authorities is to engage in foul acts, then it may be lawful to engage in these acts. There may be no conflict between the acts and the lawful alignment.

    The more complicated question is when there are conflicting laws. The command from God is not to engage in foul acts, but the command from the local authorities is to engage in foul acts. In this case, there is a great opportunity for role-playing, angst, rebellion, atonements, and other actions.

    Note also however, the distinction between ends and means.


    hogarth wrote:


    I've certainly noticed this trend with some of the adventure paths. Personally, I think "choose between two evils" is a pretty railroad-y thing for a DM to do.

    It's life.

    In fact, always having a way out is railroading. Sometimes, all the choices are bad.

    hogarth wrote:


    I'd much rather see dilemmas along the lines of "you have two paths: one path is hard and morally gray, and one path is very hard and is the right thing to do"

    That has been done to death. And then resurrected. And then done to death again. And raised again. And so on, and so forth, ad nauseum. :P

    Plus, it rewards neutral characters who just care about getting the job done, so is it really better than the lesser of two evils thing?

    In my experience, "hard and good or easy and evil" will work out in one of two ways: The characters don't care about morals and do the easy way, or the characters do care about morals and go the hard way, which will grant them more XP.

    Presenting two choices where neither is ideal, and being forced to think, and feel, your way through the mess - now *that's* heroic.

    Of course, it can also be botched. "Kill this child to save the city" is one of the worst tropes out there, or "decide between your friends". And there's people out there who love to put paladins into situations where they will lose their powers.

    But if done well, this can be very intense.

    Cohlrox wrote:


    I have a pally and a good aligned Cleric player that I am worried about when they get to this part of the AP.

    Take their powers right now. Good is only really good if it stands against adversary. Everyone can be good in Pretty Carebear Land Full of Gummy Bears.

    Cohlrox wrote:


    also, what is with the new Transmutation/Necromancy spell?

    Yeah, isn't that the most awesome piece of magic since magic missile or what? I had an awe-gasm when I read about it.

    Cohlrox wrote:


    Elven necromancers???

    Why not? Elves can be everything they want. So can dwarves, and humans, and halflings. Racial restrictions are long gone, and good riddance!


    KaeYoss wrote:
    Why not? Elves can be everything they want. So can dwarves, and humans, and halflings. Racial restrictions are long gone, and good riddance!

    Well said. I think --

    Oh hang on, it's my turn. Right, my kobold paladin charges the gnasty elvish wizards...


    minkscooter wrote:
    gnasty

    Only gnome sympathisers get to use the Silent Gee!

    Unless that kobold is a GS...


    KaeYoss wrote:
    minkscooter wrote:
    gnasty

    Only gnome sympathisers get to use the Silent Gee!

    Unless that kobold is a GS...

    Ah, you noticed that. In fact, the gee is not silent: g'nasty. It expresses the contempt and righteous anger that springs from centuries of enmity with gnomes. Imagining that the elves are gnome sympathizers makes it easier for the paladin to smite evil. This paladin is a hateful little bastard who likes to jump up and shout slogans like "Hurrah! We fight for the right as one!"


    minkscooter wrote:
    KaeYoss wrote:
    minkscooter wrote:
    gnasty

    Only gnome sympathisers get to use the Silent Gee!

    Unless that kobold is a GS...

    Ah, you noticed that. In fact, the gee is not silent: g'nasty. It expresses the contempt and righteous anger that springs from centuries of enmity with gnomes. Imagining that the elves are gnome sympathizers makes it easier for the paladin to smite evil. This paladin is a hateful little bastard who likes to jump up and shout slogans like "Hurrah! We fight for the right as one!"

    I.e. delusional blackguard.

    Nothing against that per se, but I'm pro-gnome.


    Cohlrox wrote:
    thanks everyone for your input, I didnt realize that Demons were running so rampant through the city. I also didn't realize that your average drow had such easy access to detect magic.

    You sound like you're not really convinced. Actually, this is part of the stated premise of the adventure. In page one of the foreword:

    "... an undercover investigation within a society that has little problem seeing through most magical disguises ..."

    Choosing not to accept that premise is like not accepting that

    Spoiler:
    A22 in House Vonnarc houses cave geckos.
    You can run with what's given, or change a location's description to something that better suits your notions.

    Even if justification is needed, I think that F. Wesley Schneider made a compelling case (above) that deserved something better than sarcasm in response. It would have been great to include part of that post in the published adventure.

    James Jacobs wrote:
    That sidebar was mostly in there for one reason: a plea to GMs who enjoy punishing paladins (and to a lesser extent good or lawful clerics and to an even lesser extent good and lawful characters) by robbing them of their class abilities for any perceived slight against the code. As a result, we've got generations of paladins who are so hardline about being what their player interprets as LAWFUL GOOD that those paladins are almost unplayable in any adventure, let alone one that's based on being deceptive and a double agent in an evil society.

    I think I agree with KnightErrantJR that paladins present more of a problem than other characters. In an adventure that calls for subterfuge, the paladin is clearly out of his element, in the same way that a drow in full sunlight cannot function to the peak of his abilities. Imagine, if you will, a person who finds it difficult to speak if he is not free to gesticulate with his hands. (OK, that example came from left field.) Anyway, I agree that the role-playing opportunities here are intriguing. I think a token penalty to acknowledge the compromised state of the paladin's heroism is reasonable, as long as the GM, in the spirit of the adventure, respects the author's recommendations, and no lasting harm is done.

    I love "crazy" ideas like these! (James Jacobs called it that, not me.) :-)


    KaeYoss wrote:

    I.e. delusional blackguard.

    Nothing against that per se, but I'm pro-gnome.

    Me too. (My avatar is a badger, after all). The kobold paladin was just fun. I imagined some yappy little thing like Sir Didymus in Labyrinth. I can just see the other party members:

    "Why, oh why did we take this little monster along?"
    "If only he would shut up just this once, please let him shut up just this once..."
    "Well, he did rescue us from that demon we set loose..."
    "Did you have to remind me?"
    "Uh... get ready to run!"

    minkscooter wrote:
    I love "crazy" ideas like these! (James Jacobs called it that, not me.) :-)

    In case it wasn't clear what I was referring to, it was from the forward to Endless Night:

    "We've pulled some strange stunts in Pathfinder over the past year... But in this volume's adventure, "Endless Night," we're doing something really crazy."

    The foreword is worth a thorough read. It explains why the start of the adventure may seem "railroady", and what ideas motivated the adventure's premise. I love this kind of thing; it's an example of why I respect the talent and creativity of the folks at Paizo.


    Every now and then, you have to go completely bonkers with something.

    I'm still imagining a gnome (probably sorcerer, and probably aberrant bloodline) with a mad passion for costumes. And I'm not talking "today I dress like a Chelaxian, tomorrow like a Varisian" costumes. More like "today I'll walk around in my raccoon suit, and I think tomorrow will be a pussycat with antlers day".


    Perfect. Now imagine this character surviving Endless Night. Who knows? He might become a trendsetter among the drow.

    More likely, both of our characters will be abandoned by their respective adventuring groups in the streets of Zirnakaynin. Each, because of the necromancer's disguise, will not realize that the other is his mortal enemy, so they'll team up, and what ensues will be the stuff of legend.


    minkscooter wrote:

    Perfect. Now imagine this character surviving Endless Night. Who knows? He might become a trendsetter among the drow.

    More likely, both of our characters will be abandoned by their respective adventuring groups in the streets of Zirnakaynin. Each, because of the necromancer's disguise, will not realize that the other is his mortal enemy, so they'll team up, and what ensues will be the stuff of legend.

    Nah. Your character might wander the streets endlessly, but that gnome will take over. There's something supremely frightening about a dark elf in a raccoon costume grinning cheerfully at you. To the drow mind, that instantly says: "The guy is mad. Stark raving mad. But he is obviously powerful enough to survive to adulthood with that, so the last thing one should do, even behind standing in the abyss and singing songs praising archons and devils, is to displease that one."

    In fact, It might be that the whole dark elven race is ruled by just such an individual, ruling with an iron hand in a furry glove.


    And so the brave paladin was left, friendless and alone, to ponder the vagaries of mortal life. Perhaps it had something to do with being a monster wearing the skin of a dead elf. Glancing both ways, he sniffed under his armpit.


    minkscooter wrote:

    "... an undercover investigation within a society that has little problem seeing through most magical disguises ..."

    I think the adventure is fine, although I agree that the idea that the Drow can easily pierce most disguises is perhaps I think overblown. After all, the drow do not appear to be concerned that the party members have an accent, are equipped with surface dweller equipment, and are walking around covered by the faces of slain neighbors. In a small city, where a typical dark elf has lived for centuries, the idea that slain dark elves would not be recognized when they returned strains credibility (on the plus side, most of their buddies were also slain or have departed from the city; furthermore nobody may care that they have returned and joined another house -- but nobody caring is different from nobody recognizing). Can "true seeing" see through most magic? Absolutely. Is detect magic used a lot by drow casters? yes. Do the PCs radiate strong necromancy (and either moderate or strong abjuration for the spell resistance)? Almost certainly. Yet the Drow do not terminate the party of PCs for having a strong necromancy spell on them. It is possible that the drow might overlook other auras.

    While there may be epic level demon lords in the city, the demon lords probably have better things to do than cast true seeing looking for spies. While many divine casters may desire the ability to see through lies in a city of liars, it is unlikely that divine casters would receive truth spells from deities known for encouraging lies.


    endur wrote:


    After all, the drow do not appear to be concerned that the party members have an accent,

    That's mainly because they don't have an accent. Their amulet grants them the ability to speak Undercommon.

    endur wrote:


    are equipped with surface dweller equipment

    Spoils of war. The drow they're impersonating have been on the surface for some time and will have killed surface elves and taken their stuff. A drow will take the ring of protection +3 over the +2 one, even if the latter looks nicer. Power is power.

    endur wrote:


    , and are walking around covered by the faces of slain neighbors.

    And that's because they're not. They're walking around looking like some drow. The drow that used to have those faces have been on the surface, and the others don't know that they've been slain. In fact, they know that they haven't been, for here there are.

    endur wrote:


    In a small city, where a typical dark elf has lived for centuries, the idea that slain dark elves would not be recognized when they returned strains credibility

    Zirnakaynin is not a small city. It's a drow metropolis with over 42000 drow living there.

    And drow don't memorise the faces of each other drow even in a smaller settlement. Only important people are important. The others are faceless rivals.

    endur wrote:


    Is detect magic used a lot by drow casters? yes.

    So? You'll have to actively study someone with it to learn more than "they have magic running".

    endur wrote:


    Do the PCs radiate strong necromancy (and either moderate or strong abjuration for the spell resistance)? Almost certainly.

    Wrong. They detect as undead, but it's not an ongoing necromancy effect. The spell is instantaneous, leaving no trace of it. You don't radiate evocation magic after being hit with a fireball, either.

    And the amulet (not the character) will detect as magic, and auras will be revealed, but you can't learn more unless you use identify on the item.

    And no one will bat an eye on someone wearing a magic amulet.

    endur wrote:


    While there may be epic level demon lords in the city, the demon lords probably have better things to do than cast true seeing looking for spies.

    They don't have to cast anything. Many fiends, including some that aren't nearly epic, have true seeing active at all times. They wouldn't need to cast it and look for spies. They would just have to pass them on the street.

    endur wrote:


    While many divine casters may desire the ability to see through lies in a city of liars, it is unlikely that divine casters would receive truth spells from deities known for encouraging lies.

    They don't rever deities. They rever demon princes. And I don't think they would deny them a spell like that.

    Still, drow won't go around and use detect lies all the time. It would leave them with no other spells, and they already know that they're probably being lied to.

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