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Hey Gene - for what its worth, and this is in no way addressed to your design preferences as you of course should design as you wish, but I've never really needed the intelligence "what you know" breakdowns by DC. I would greatly see value in the bestiary as-is. Also, if there were some legal way to snap pics of the minis associated with the stats, one might slap an OGL licence on the back and post it up to a sharing Web site. Of course, with all the work involved, you could also slap a $1.99 tag on it and send it up through RPGNow. Just my thoughts. That is, knowledge checks have been, imho, a way for designers to "inflate" the columns of text with some repetition—but I welcome disagreement on this. Again, I support whatever design choices you're engaged in, and am excited with this body of work!!! I would am curious on your opinion of that that though...
M - any thoughts?
Well, I like the dc knowledge tables, as long as they are not a replacement for a real ecology write-up. (I like to use them as a check on players meta-gaming when it comes to monster knowledge.)
How would it work to include them on a separate page after the entry?
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Hey Gene - for what its worth, and this is in no way addressed to your design preferences as you of course should design as you wish, but I've never really needed the intelligence "what you know" breakdowns by DC. I would greatly see value in the bestiary as-is. Also, if there were some legal way to snap pics of the minis associated with the stats, one might slap an OGL licence on the back and post it up to a sharing Web site. Of course, with all the work involved, you could also slap a $1.99 tag on it and send it up through RPGNow. Just my thoughts. That is, knowledge checks have been, imho, a way for designers to "inflate" the columns of text with some repetition—but I welcome disagreement on this. Again, I support whatever design choices you're engaged in, and am excited with this body of work!!! I would am curious on your opinion of that that though...
M - any thoughts?
Well, I've already gotten a large chunk of them done (working on the howling hag, right now actually) so I figure I might as well include them.
All I'm really including in them is three things. Well, three results. The first result tells what the creature is and then tells the DM that it reveals all X traits, where X is the creature's type (goblinoid, outsider, et cetera). The second result gives a bit of info on the creature's abilities, and the third result gives more info on what the creature is capable of. None of these result in actual mechanical info.
Here's an example if you're interested (minus table formatting, of course):
Lore
A successful knowledge (the planes) check will reveal the following information about an earth titan:
DC 40 This is an earth titan, an extremely rare creature that is created during obscure rituals committed amongst the stone giants. Among stone giants, they are typically elevated to the role of clan chieftain. This reveals all elemental traits.
DC 45 Earth titans are capable of dazing foes that they strike in melee and they are also capable of gliding through earth and stone as if it were water to a fish.
DC 50 Earth titans possess a mastery over the ground that grants them power so long as they are in contact with earth or stone; they are also capable of causing the earth itself to attack their foes.
That said, they really don't take up that much room, maybe a fifth of one of the columns or so. It's pretty negligible; plus I think it gives something for DMs to give out to players who are fond of making knowledge checks to ID monsters.
As for selling it. Heh, while I'd love to, I'd much rather sell original monsters. Plus I'm sure there's all kinds of ways that WotC could sue me for using their IP, I know aboleth are Wizard's IP and I'm sure most of the other stuff is as well. Besides, it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside to know that I'm giving back to the gaming community.
Aaaaactually...
[SHAMELESS PLUG]
I intend to eventually release a series of supplements (selling as .pdf files for a couple bucks each and as a print product as well, no idea for the price on that one) for both players and DMs that I intend to call Player's Compatriot and Game Master's Compatriot respectively. The latter of which will include oodles of new monsters and nifty things for DMs to use on their victi... err... players. But these are a ways off .
[/SHAMELESS PLUG]
Well, I like the dc knowledge tables, as long as they are not a replacement for a real ecology write-up. (I like to use them as a check on players meta-gaming when it comes to monster knowledge.)
This is pretty much my stance on it as well. I fully intend to keep the chunks of flavor info with each monster entry and I'm using the knowledge checks as something purely for players.
How would it work to include them on a separate page after the entry?
While this could work, I think it'd be a hassle having to flip-to and print-off an extra page when it's no change to space (one monster per page) if I just include it on the same page.
Still, I'm open to suggestions; would you guys use 'em if I included them on a separate page?
It all sounds good, Gene. And yeah, Wizards would not let you sell a product based on their minis--while some monsters are open in their generic form, I'm sure they are not in their specific miniature game manifestations. And we all know having free good products lures sales for non-free products.
My thought about the extra page: you could format the doc so that every opening had monster entry on the left, table on the right. You could also number the pages 1, 1a, 2, 2a, etc (or maybe even "t" for table) so that those who wanted to remove the tables (or simply not print them) could do so with no numbering issues. The remaining white space could be used for notes, or by people who wanted to add art to the page on their own.
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It all sounds good, Gene. And yeah, Wizards would not let you sell a product based on their minis--while some monsters are open in their generic form, I'm sure they are not in their specific miniature game manifestations. And we all know having free good products lures sales for non-free products.
Those are pretty much my thoughts on the subjects as well. I figure I can stat up a bugbear warrior, sure, but when I give it an ability that does (nearly) the same thing that the 4E version does, and then I give that ability the same name, I think I'm treading into terrain I ought not be in when it comes to marketing.
As for freebies. I am a HUGE fan of them. As such, I full well intend to hand out previews of anything I intend to sell. I'm also a fan of people not spending money unless they feel it's worth it. :p
My thought about the extra page: you could format the doc so that every opening had monster entry on the left, table on the right. You could also number the pages 1, 1a, 2, 2a, etc (or maybe even "t" for table) so that those who wanted to remove the tables (or simply not print them) could do so with no numbering issues. The remaining white space could be used for notes, or by people who wanted to add art to the page on their own.
Well, currently, the extra knowledge checks (which I'm lumping into a 'Lore' section) are appearing at the end of monster entries. As a rule this puts them firmly on the right side of the pages or in the bottom-right portion of pages for entries that contain lots of monster abilities (*glares at the Ice Archon*).
I think what I'm going to do is release three versions as follows:
--- A 4E > 3.5 Bestiary with the lore entries on the same page as the monsters.
--- A 4E > 3.5 Bestiary without lore entries.
and
--- A separate download that is a page (or several, as the case may be) of nothing but the lore entries.
I figure this way everyone can get just what they want.
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Bestiary time!
Just got 'er uploaded and here are the links (along with explanation as to what they contain):
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4E to 3.5 Bestiary - Volume I
This is the standard bestiary; all 25 monsters up to this point are included with lore entries.
4E to 3.5 Bestiary - Volume I - No Lore
This is as above; all 25 monsters up to this point are included but I have removed the lore entries for those who won't use them.
4E to 3.5 Bestiary - Volume I - Lore Entries
This is only the lore entries. I figure this will be of use to those who want to keep their monster lore separate from the monsters.
I have also come to the conclusion that I'll be updating the bestiary (volume II, volume III, et cetera) every time I get 5 new monsters out. So the next version of the bestiary will be released after I've stated the following:
Soulrider Devil (CR 7)
Web Golem (CR 9)
Shadow Flayer (CR 10)
Thoon Hulk (CR 12)
Angel of Retribution (CR 15)
I figure it'll be better to have a 'set' release schedule as to when updates will occur and whatnot. Anyways, that said, hope you folks find this useful.
Cheers!
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Everything to Date:
Compilations:
4E to 3.5 Bestiary - Volume I
4E to 3.5 Bestiary - Volume I - No Lore
4E to 3.5 Bestiary - Volume I - Lore Entries
Monsters:
Aboleth Lasher
Aboleth Overseer
Aboleth Slime Mage
Archon, Ice
Bat, Shadowhunter
Bugbear Lancebreaker
Bugbear Strangler
Bugbear Warrior
Bulette, Juvenile
Carrion Crawler, Enormous
Corruption Corpse
Demon, Gnaw
Demon, Runespiral
Earth Titan
Galeb Duhr Earthbreaker
Galeb Duhr Rockcaller
Golem, Chain
Hellwasp
Hag, Howling
Skeleton, Blazing
Spider, Deathjump
Spider, Phaseweb
Thunderblast Cyclone
Wight, Deathlock
Zombie, Chillborn
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A couple quick thoughts this evening....
First - thank you Gene. Good work.
Second - forget about what I said about not really wanting the lore portion. subsequent compositions can just include it. you've really impressed me with your design verbiage choices. really, nothing is over inflated, very succinct, nice.
Third - Did i get the name of this thread written wrong. i've always preferred beginning with the lovely sounding "v.3.5" prior to invoking the harsh gutteral grunt of 4e, but who knows. i mean is it really v.3.5 stat block conversions for 4e minis? at least i usually think that way, becuase i'm not actually saying its a 4e conversion of sorts. but perhaps that's just my way of rationalizing it all. very tired.... must sleep.
Fourth - I have another project idea for the second half of 2009. i don't wish to unveil yet, but i think both M. and Gene might like it. it once again makes use of Gene's brilliance, but might be something we could all do together in our spare time.... (no, it is not rewriting Beatles lyrics with references to our hobby, then throwing in malapropisms.... Phaser Web Spider!!!!!!!)
Fifth - LONG LIVE v.3.5. LONG LIVE PATHFINDER!!! LONG LIVE GENE THE STAT MACHINE!!!
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Second - forget about what I said about not really wanting the lore portion. subsequent compositions can just include it. you've really impressed me with your design verbiage choices. really, nothing is over inflated, very succinct, nice.
Glad you enjoyed it, man. :D
Third - Did i get the name of this thread written wrong. i've always preferred beginning with the lovely sounding "v.3.5" prior to invoking the harsh gutteral grunt of 4e, but who knows. i mean is it really v.3.5 stat block conversions for 4e minis? at least i usually think that way, becuase i'm not actually saying its a 4e conversion of sorts. but perhaps that's just my way of rationalizing it all. very tired.... must sleep.
I really just called it the 4E to 3.5 Conversion Bestiary 'cause I couldn't think of any way to put it with 3.5 first that didn't take up a ton of space. I may just start referring to it as the Conversion Bestiary, however.
Fourth - I have another project idea for the second half of 2009. i don't wish to unveil yet, but i think both M. and Gene might like it. it once again makes use of Gene's brilliance, but might be something we could all do together in our spare time.... (no, it is not rewriting Beatles lyrics with references to our hobby, then throwing in malapropisms.... Phaser Web Spider!!!!!!!)
Sounds interesting. :)
Fifth - LONG LIVE v.3.5. LONG LIVE PATHFINDER!!! LONG LIVE GENE THE STAT MACHINE!!!
Viva la Pathfinder? :p
Conversion bestiary may be better. My thought: come up with a cool name for it, and then give it a subtitle that tells what it is, like what you are currently using as the title. Would you like a brainstormed list of ideas?
Anyway really enjoying the updated and improved bestiary. Go Gene!
Well...if it involves no rewriting of lyrics...I don't know... ;)
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This is the story 'bout an internet thread,
Inspired 'cause support, for v.3.5 was dead,
So we took it on ourselves, and our brilliant buddy Gene,
Who became our hero by becomin' a mini-stat machine.
4e to 3.5 That Is...!
Next thing 'ya know, old Gene's got twenty-five,
And he publishes the stats in a free good-lookin' guide,
He fixed mistakes he'd made, and he added arcane lore,
He's the guy Pax Veritas and Mairkurion {TM} adore.
Gene, That Is...!
We can't wait to use these in our games! Thanks, Gene.
HA-HA-HA!
Awesome and true, Pax.
OK, you guys have FaceBook mail.
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... just thought I'd stop in to say I might be away for a week as I travel on business. I will try to stop in and sing a song or two though.
Are we still waiting on other write-ups from Gene?
Also - the HELLWASPS were a HUGE hit last Monday. I used Tinkered Tactics' Combat Tiers family pack and as set of 6 Hellwasps to really screw with the party. The loud hum prevented AOEs, and their Poison was actually well balanced and lethal. The coolest was having the sorcerer on deaths door at -7, knowing secondary damage was still to come!
I played out this battle in full v.3.5/Pathfinder RPG miniature/ simulationist glory. And, wow, these wasps were truly dope, man!
Thanks again, buddy Gene!!!!
Me!
<.<
>.>
What'd I do?
Hey Gene, don't make it bad.
Take sad 4e stats and make 'em better.
Remember our thread's conversion queue,
Then it's up to you to make 'em better!
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Rest assured that I'll be getting back on these VERY soon. Life's been keeping my busy and my external hard drive (where I keep all my D&D homebrew stuff) is currently out of my possession. I should be getting it back within a few days and I'll get started on stating up some more monsters.
Sorry for being so silent, guys.
I don't know if this has been said already but the Shadow Flayer and the Thoon Hulk both appearred in Monster Manual V for 3.5e. They aren't exclusively 4E Monsters, they were just in a newer 3.5e supplement.
Thanks for that, Wolf. I haven't bought the MMV, so I'm less familiar with it. Seems like MMs after III have strongly resisted ending up in Half-Price Books...I wonder if less were printed.
Gene, did I order the scythe jaw or the infernal armor? I ended up with them, so maybe you can do something interesting with them...though I understand if you are less excited about them. Don't worry about it Gene, we all know deep down that you are not our conversion=making slave. We just forget to act like it some times.
So...why do you need a hard drive to do this work...? ;P
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I don't know if this has been said already but the Shadow Flayer and the Thoon Hulk both appearred in Monster Manual V for 3.5e. They aren't exclusively 4E Monsters, they were just in a newer 3.5e supplement.
Thanks, Wolf Monroe. I'm headed down to the dungeon room to check the books right now - do you happen to recall if the "size" variable is consistent between the new minis and the MMV stats? If so, we're golden, if not - GENE!!!!!!!
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I don't know if this has been said already but the Shadow Flayer and the Thoon Hulk both appearred in Monster Manual V for 3.5e. They aren't exclusively 4E Monsters, they were just in a newer 3.5e supplement.
You are most correct, good sir! :D
Gene, did I order the scythe jaw or the infernal armor? I ended up with them, so maybe you can do something interesting with them...though I understand if you are less excited about them. Don't worry about it Gene, we all know deep down that you are not our conversion=making slave. We just forget to act like it some times.
I don't think they're on my list but I can add them to it. I was actually hoping you guys would start throwing out more minis for me to stat, the list is actually getting kinda short.
So...why do you need a hard drive to do this work...?
Well, I keep all my templates and whatnot on there along with my copy of the list. I kinda need it to know what I'm doing. Unless you guys want hand-written stat blocks, of course. :p
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I should also note that the Web Golem is in Monster Manual 3 (he's large sized).
I'll probably stat up the monsters anyways, simply so that I can give them some new abilities. Though, due to their already existing I may push them down on the list of priorities a bit.
I'm tellin' ya Gene, put all that stuff on Google Docs. You can work on it anywhere. Then get OpenOffice and you can convert your Google Docs into pdfs when you're ready.
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I'm tellin' ya Gene, put all that stuff on Google Docs. You can work on it anywhere. Then get OpenOffice and you can convert your Google Docs into pdfs when you're ready.
I actually tried putting the stuff onto Google Docs; sadly, it doesn't like my formatting at all. It kills the two columns, which I'm fond of for space conservation reasons.
When it comes to the .PDF conversion, I have an old copy of Adobe Acrobat that I use for that. It's definitely not as sophisticated as the stuff out there now, but it gets the job done quick enough.
As for OpenOffice, I've used it before but I have to say I like Microsoft Office 2003 much better. Though for the price, OpenOffice owns Microsoft Office. :p
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Or, in my case, I keep a small contingent of dwarves handy. They run to and fro from my book collection. They bring me things such as coffee, candybars, ink pens and parchment scrolls upon which I do all of my first draft writing with a quill and the blood of a young adult cockatrice. Hey, it works for me.
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Or, in my case, I keep a small contingent of dwarves handy. They run to and fro from my book collection. They bring me things such as coffee, candybars, ink pens and parchment scrolls upon which I do all of my first draft writing with a quill and the blood of a young adult cockatrice. Hey, it works for me.
I wish I had minions... : /
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Got the external harddrive back today, I should get some work done sometime this coming week (likely either Wednesday, Friday, or over the weekend).
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HEY! I picked up the Thoon creature thingy on re-sale. And two of those vicejaw things that look like elaborate bear-traps.
If possible, Gene, could you prepare a short 5 point list of whats next in the queue, so I can ensure I've got the stuff or am making plans to find some...
P.s. Again, great job with the Hellwasps! The PCs are horrified of them!
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The current list of monsters-to-stat is as follows:
Soulrider Devil (CR 7)
Web Golem (CR 9)
Shadow Flayer (CR 10)
Thoon Hulk (CR 12)
Angel of Retribution (CR 15)Scythe Jaw (CR ??)
Infernal Armor (CR ??)Is anything missing? Or is there anything else you guys want stated up?
Dude - you're quick. Check-check, got 'em all except the Shadow Flayer - I'll look for that one. Since its CR10, I shouldn't need more than 1 or 2. Thanks, Gene!
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Dude - you're quick. Check-check, got 'em all except the Shadow Flayer - I'll look for that one. Since its CR10, I shouldn't need more than 1 or 2. Thanks, Gene!
You caught me in one of my rare 'on-the-ball' moments. :p
From what I gather, the shadow flayer will likely be a slightly advanced mind flayer with some arcane spell casting (likely illusion) prowess. They should be nasty enough. :D
I have fire bat!
And dammit all, the imp is not a medium creature!!! ARGH!
Can you slap an advanced template on an imp? Is that in the Advanced Bestiary? I still don't have it.
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I have fire bat!
Want it added to the list? I don't mind stating up lower level stuff, high CR monsters take awhile, though
And dammit all, the imp is not a medium creature!!! ARGH!
Can you slap an advanced template on an imp? Is that in the Advanced Bestiary? I still don't have it.
There isn't an 'advanced' template. At least not in the Advanced Bestiary. God, why do imps have to be tiny... I suppose you could just up its size to medium and slap on a few extra hit-dice, and then say it's an 'imp lord' or something.
I'll scope out some of my more obscure books and see if I've got anything interesting that could up its size category a few steps.
Sorry, it's small, not medium. Still, they upped it a size category, which miffs me. I guess in their wisdom they eliminated tiny?
What are you guys doing with the Orcus Deathpriest? He looks cool, and lacking anything creative, I'll just use him as an evil cleric who worships Orcus. I got him a friend too...the big guy who hates wearing shirts that cover up his Orcus tattoo.
Anyhoo...yes, thanks, Gene.
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Sorry, it's small, not medium. Still, they upped it a size category, which miffs me. I guess in their wisdom they eliminated tiny?
Nah, they've still got tiny-sized stuff. Personally, I never really thought of imps as tiny-sized and was honestly surprised to find that they were. :p
What are you guys doing with the Orcus Deathpriest? He looks cool, and lacking anything creative, I'll just use him as an evil cleric who worships Orcus.
It is a spiffy looking mini; I'll look into whipping it up into something nifty. Possibly a cleric with some special (demon/devil/whateverthecrapOrcusisnow) abilities.
I got him a friend too...the big guy who hates wearing shirts that cover up his Orcus tattoo.
I admit it. I laughed. :D
Yeah, the Orcus Deathpriest is cool, though paint job quality varies. (Please keep Orcus a demon, whatever Wotci did.)
And what did I score yesterday? An otyug, a shadow dragon, and a balor...no conversions necessary!
(FRIENDLY NOTE: Do not use the "weight" method to pick Underdark boxes...you'll get a loyal earth elemental almost every time.)
And imps need to be tiny to duke it out with pseudodragons. Cf. the definitions of "imp".
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Shadow Dragon - quite a find, M., since its a rare. nice. Let me know if we're adding to Gene's list as I will need time to acquire...
The infernal armor ??? Do we think CR will be low? What were they designed to be all about in 4? They look a bit cheezy.... some look like they belong on "Dancing with the Stars."
Yes, the red grinning imp will need a conversion because of size difference, so please add.
Shadow Dragon is Night Below (so no conversion), and yes, I'm happy (I somehow thought my Underdark purchases would also get me a Deep Dragon, but alas, no.)
If Infernal Armor isn't added, please do. (It's common, so we're likely to end up with multiples, and it is a new take on a classic idea. My nephew actually loved it.) I'd guess it would be low CR, but I don't have the card in front of my right now. I'm also guessing it might have both damage reduction and magic resistance, which would make them a bit more of a pain.
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Okay, so with everything added, how's the following look:
Soulrider Devil (CR 7)
Web Golem (CR 9)
Shadow Flayer (CR 10)
Thoon Hulk (CR 12)
Angel of Retribution (CR 15)
Death Priest of Orcus (CR ??)
Firebat (CR ??)
Grinning Imp (CR ??)
Infernal Armor (CR ??)
Orcus (CR ?? - Demon)
Scythe Jaw (CR ??)
I've got the last six separated because I have yet to look up their stats to estimate a CR on them.
Orcus should be fun (though I estimate his CR is going to be WAY up there (like something around 30)). >: )
Orcus! Wow...did you steal that prototype for us?
What about the Degenerate Cultists of Orcus?
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Yo! What the dillio did I miss here? I don't remember a figure for Orcus.... is this an aspect? Which set is it from? Or are you just referring to the deathpriest?
Well, there /was/ going to be a gargantuan Orcus mini ages ago but it never got released.
You guys brought up the Orcus Deathpriest (who is also getting stated up) and I figured I'd throw out some of my own stats for Orcus as well (based on the abilities possessed by Orcus in 4E.
It's kinda like what I did with the Aboleth; I stated them even though WotC doesn't have minis for 'em (though there was an Aspect of Orcus mini in one of the earlier sets).
EDIT: And here's a link to a wicked looking Orcus mini (non-painted; but still nifty):
http://www.miniature-giant.com/demon-prince-of-the-undead-Reaper-Dark-Heave n-Legends-DHL-sku-2646-pr-666.html
I don't see anyway of telling what size that Orcus mini is.
I might be okay with a huge-sized aspect of Orcus. (Why did Wotci come to call avatars aspects? Oh well.)
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I might just be smokin' a hooka with the caterpillar on this one, but who needs an ORCUS anyhow - its a game breaker, a campaign ender!
I'm okay with it, I just missed how it hopped in here....? Yes, there was a mini never made - but, who needs the stats for this?
*heads over and takes a chill pill*
No worries, Pax...hey, be careful with the hookah...don't touch the metal parts.
I guess my waving those two Orcus-related minis under Gene's nose set him off, which is fine by me, since I had been planning to include a conflict between the cult of Orcus and the cult of Vecna (as adapted to my home world) as a major part of some developments some of my players' parties are going through. I doubt I would ever use Orcus in his fullness at the table, but I might use an avatar of Orcus. (I have serious limits in my world as to how much the greater evil powers can directly enter the ordinary plane of existence; PMP, if you will. So I could have an avatar as a really tough opponent some day at high level play, without the sort of overpowered nonsense that would be a game ender.)
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I am away from my books at the moment, but seem to recall the aspect of orcus appearing in the Miniatures Handbook.
I do appreciate using aspects as they present tough 9-15 HD bbegs but don't smash the campaign to oblivion. I rececently used an aspect of Malcanthet in my campaign with resounding success and fun!
I guess the mini you might be talking about must be from the Archfiends set?
*sips on hooka*
Hey, the caterpillar says Yo!