oh I also forgot, the idea really took form when reading over Rowyn's reappearance in SWW. My group doesn't turn many criminals over to the authorities. They tend to deal out frontier style justice (ie Dead). So I thought of that as a way to bring her back sensibly without the tropes of "shes just back and theres no reason you can figure out". Granted my Rowyn never got killed and she is semi allied with the pcs who are trying to redeem her. But you'll lave that.
As a side thought since my pcs are about to finish BG, and nat twentied diplomacy with Harliss, and then having a Ranger caught up with her half-orc (who I ruled was wounded since Harliss got whomped, it made sense) and nat twentied diplomacy again. That he had sent the much faster bullywugs ahead while he was tended by the acolytes in the tribe. So theyve steamrolled most of the bullywugs except the Huntress who killed the halfling bard. I've decided to modify things as follows:
- Lavinia's room is an EL9 encounter and end piece containing the chieftan encounter and the shaman at the same time...
- The shaman will have modified Lavina's bedroom into a makeshift temple and uses her bed as an altar. The pcs will enter just after Lavinia has been sacrificed or maybe just before depending on time. She dies instead of the halfling woman. This will allow the contingency policy to come up and be explained, and also have Lavinia want to be more independant and learn to fight (explaining her levels)
- And lastly, adding in during the side mission I have just before SWW, that the leader of the pirates is a very still human Vanthus who gets killed by the party at the end of that adventure. Thus bringing again to light the contingency with the church of Wee Jas. Thus gives Vanthus post fiend and later post mortem much more motivation to hate the party and the party gets that "Not him AGAIN!" response along with the half-fiend shock that never really happens. Only seeing Vanthus for 2 seconds or as a painting pre-demon doesn't really give that oomph to his encounter that's needed IMO.
Sometimes heroes lose. Luke couldn't save Obi Wan. Aragorn couldn't save Gandalf. Both probably felt very unheroic after such setbacks, yet they proved themselves heroes precisely because they did continue.
Oh, good examples - and both Obi Wan and Gandalf still had important rolls in the subsequent two films (or books, as you choose). One came back as a ghost and the other came back to life. Huh?
Let me be absolutely clear on this. I am not trying to punish anyone…
Likewise, keep in mind that I was responding to another poster whom, I felt, was being a little adversarial – and I was getting defensive. I never meant to imply that you intended to punish the characters. Just the person I was responding to at the time.
Thanks, but the great thing about these boards is that we can discuss many options, and many people can benefit from them. So even though I may take my game in a certain direction for one reason, by no means do we have to limit discussion here to my solution.
since we are trying to respond to Ironregime, it’s really only his “mileage” that counts. He knows his group and whether this applies or not.
Oh, yeah, I agree. It’s just that I’ve seen so many times (and it’s happened to me) where someone asks a question and it never gets answered for all the side discussions. And, here, I felt especially responsible for drawing the conversation away from the original question, so I wanted to make sure you were getting taken care of.
Boy, when you take my comments out of context like that, it really sounds like I’m trying to convince you to bring Lavina back, and that was never my intention. I was just trying to get across how integral she is to the STAP, as written. There is NOTHING wrong with going off board or scrapping the STAP altogether, if that’s what you want to do
But, come on, give me some props for that “The role of Lavinia will be played by her twin cousin, Bolivia” line. That was pretty good, right?
Sorry, your post was so complex I couldn't keep track of who I was quoting. I went back and edited and still don't know who I'm talking to!
The roll of Troy Pacelli will be played by his twin cousin, Tony Macelli…
I just keep imagine Star Wars if it went like this:
Han and Luke, dressed as stormtroopers, march Chewbacca into the detention center. “Where are you going with this … thing?” The officer on duty asks. “Prisoner transfer from cellblock AA23,” Han replies. The stuff hits the fan, “He’s loose! He’s loose!” Blaster fire everywhere.
In a panic (or thinking quickly), one of the guards realizes that this is a rescue attempt. He goes into Leia’s cell and blasts her in the head.
Luke takes out the last guard and runs to the cell to see the headless corpse of the woman he would never know was his sister. “I’m Luke Skywalker,” he says hollowly, “I’m here to rescue you.”
Han comes up behind him and looks in, “Does this mean no reward?”
Chewbacca grunts a string of Wookie words.
“You said it, Chewy,” Han replies, “Better her than us.”
Troy, I get that you're really in favor of keeping the storyline intact, but I can't agree with your viewpoint that the AP is a fenced-in road.
If you're not willing to have your players' actions impact the story, then all you're doing is narrating the tale to them.
I suspect that you and I have some very similar ideas on 'correct DMing'. Reality is 99% of the time I'd agree with you. In AoWs if Allustan dies well thats that then, if Tenser bites the big one well big whoop we'll get another archmage or something.
In some sense I'm under the impression that for you this is a game style issue and not really a STAP issue per se. From a game style perspective the PCs actions should have consequences and the DM should not coddle them but let the dice fall were they may. Truth is I agree with you almost always.
But STAP is, I feel, that once in a blue moon exception. STAP is highly NPC driven. I can't think of any other AP that relied quite this much on critical NPC interactions to make it go forward. In particular I think that the scene where Vanthus locks the players into the Zombie dungeon in the first adventure really absolutely must take place and Lavina can't die, at least not until near the end of the AP.
Vanthus has to screw the players early on so that the players can build up a good hate for him. It will really markedly improve the entire AP if they want his ass like nobodies, it will really amp up the players emotional investment in getting him during his later appearances if they fricken hate this guy. So this is one of those ultra rare cases where I'd justify how Vanthus did it after the fact. I'd give him whatever magic items he needed to pull this off so long as it was at all conceivable. The long term gain in the story and plot are simply worth DM 'cheating' here. This is a guy your players need to love to hate or the rest of the AP will suffer.
Like wise Lavina can't die because her interactions with the group, with other NPCs and most especially with Vanthus are the most intriguing and exciting story in the AP. Saving the world is really second fiddle to her story. Again do whatever it takes (on the sly) to insure that this is how it plays out. Otherwise your denying your players a chance to experience a truly compelling story that, with skill and a bit of luck, could be one of the most interesting and exciting ones of their entire role playing careers.
In other words I don't think this is a question of players and consequences at all. I think the real question we are answering here is "Are you willing to make an exception to your DMing style if this exception is likely to provide the players with the most interesting story possible and dramatically improve the game?".
Put this way I would hope almost any DM would answer "Yes".
Well if we're going to go over how to bring Lavinia back without contrived family plans there is the fact that either a big cleric of her deity shows up saying that her path still lies amongst the living a bit longer. Or a cleric of Wee Jas (goddess of death and all) does so with her/his speach more appropriate to theme and stressing that it's a one shot deal.
I see this as ingendering greater importance to the expedition and producing a more driven Lavinia once she's revived. After all it would imply that the gods have something invested in what's going on. If she saw her that's on the other side not just her parents it would have quite the impact as well.Heh I'm suddenly amused with the possibilties of Lavinia "coming back wrong."
Or considering the rest of the path, perhaps it's a cleric of Malcanthet...
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Just an idea i had right now - how about a revived Lavinia during the Siege of Farshore, where she taunts the PCs, blames them for abandoning her, and is just a little bit too creepily into her brother? Of course it is mind control, but it just might drive home just how much this turn of events is "not as it should be".
On an interesting minor tangent, both Obi Wan and Gandalf were making last stand sacrifices to save the rest of the group. On a purely storytelling/cinematic level, if a character wants to do that, there should be very little that STOPS them from dying in that manner.
In my game, the PCs made solid use of rented boat and druidic magic to propel themselves back to Sasserine after Kraken's Cove. I could come up with no reasonable argument regarding currents or the like (as they had asked such questions to Lavina during the job offer) and so they made it back in enough time as to cut off Drevoraz and Co. They had this prepared because they wanted to get back to the festival, as they didn't want to miss it!
So I had the festival in full swing when the arrived, and ran the various festival encounters as normal. Irritated and now very ready to exact punishment on something, they quickly fortified the estate. What would have been an "infiltration/negotiation" became a "seige/parlay". A luckily positioned guard in the basement (just in case) gave them a small bit of warning, and they fought the bullywugs down there. When Drevoraz waded into the melee and they recognized him, they made some rushed diplomacy and convinced him to drop the assault. The bullywugs had no such plan, so Drevoraz brefily joined the PCs in frog-stomping before leaving freely of his own accord. The adventure was a success.
PCs can do funny things. The challenge, as most already know, is figuring out a way to get them where you want without letting them know thats exactly what your doing. A druid can easily avoid the entire Sargasso experience. So you have to adjust. If the PCs are good, let them hear faint screams from somewhere deeper in the sargasso. If neutral, let them see the remains of a boat stuck in it, and a sailor onboard recognizes the figurehead as belonging to a wealthy merchant vessel.
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I know I'm very late to this discussion and the entire thing is way beyond the point I want to talk about But in the bit where the half orc goes for Lavinia does anyone think if it would be wrong for Lavinia to have a surprise round (after that you go to the init thing as normal.) After all she is supposed to be tightly bound so her being able to move at all should come as a big surprise.
I seem to remember that she was trying to get loose, or pretending unconsciousness or something. So yes, I think she would be entitled to a surprise round. If you want to, you could give her a bluff check to see if she can pull it off, but I do not think she really has ranks in bluff.
I will not yet reveal here some of the plans I am making to account for Lavinia's absence from the rest of the AP, but would be happy to recount what happens after the fact. Vanthus' goals--and the PCs willingness to foil them--will not be an issue, for reasons unique to my campaign.
Yes, please, keep us posted. I like to read how other DM's play the STAP. And I would like to see which solution you have thought up.
= Spoilers ahead =
I have not put them under a spoiler button, since this thread is already full of spoilers.
So I had the festival in full swing when the arrived, and ran the various festival encounters as normal. Irritated and now very ready to exact punishment on something, they quickly fortified the estate. What would have been an "infiltration/negotiation" became a "seige/parlay". A luckily positioned guard in the basement (just in case) gave them a small bit of warning, and they fought the bullywugs down there. When Drevoraz waded into the melee and they recognized him, they made some rushed diplomacy and convinced him to drop the assault. The bullywugs had no such plan, so Drevoraz brefily joined the PCs in frog-stomping before leaving freely of his own accord. The adventure was a success.
My PC's evaded all the festival encounters by using a small boat to evade the crowds and go to Vanderborn manor. They had the earring, because they were so very convincing to Harliss and helped and cured her, so they managed to convince Drevoraz as well. They intimitated the regular bullywugs and sort of rushed the others. They gained surprise when storming the master bedroom because of very careful preparations. The cleric never got a chance to summon anything.
Only the rust monster created a lot of havoc. That was the most exciting fight.I tried to sneak in the Diamondback encounter, but so far it does not fit anywhere, so I never got the chance to play it. Moreover they were not even on bad terms with Rowyn, so I already had had to invent another enemy for the encounter. So yes, events never run as you expect.
PCs can do funny things. The challenge, as most already know, is figuring out a way to get them where you want without letting them know thats exactly what your doing. A druid can easily avoid the entire Sargasso experience. So you have to adjust. If the PCs are good, let them hear faint screams from somewhere deeper in the sargasso. If neutral, let them see the remains of a boat stuck in it, and a sailor onboard recognizes the figurehead as belonging to a wealthy merchant vessel.
I am expecting the same problem, so I have hidden an important clue in one of the ships in the sargasso and am letting NPC's give liberal hints that this particular ship is very important. It worked. My PCs now have the theory that this is a specially prepared ship they need to sail into the Abyss.
So they cannot avoid the sargasso anymore :-) (I hope).And perhaps I will be giving them what they want, a specially prepared ship to sail into the Abyss. I haven't decided yet.
Nice item! I will remember it when my players get this far.
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Wow - must have somehow overlooked that item! My crew are in the Sargasso now, so I can safely dish it out to them. It gets rid of the whole storm railroad problem in one fell swoop - what chance has a ship of steering through a storm when it materializes in it above a reef?
It will be a long time before my PC's get there. We play only once every 3 weeks, and my players roleplay practically everything, so the STAP has a leisurely pace.
I think I am going to use Emraag for the shipwreck.
I have also added an encounter with an albatross with the savage creature template. It was shot by Skald and one of the PC's. Of course they had no choice but to shot it, but the crew is still muttering that it will bring bad luck (i.e. the shipwreck).
So when they are shipwrecked they cannot say they were not warned :-)