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So, amongst those that think that the fighter is 'obvious broke' (including me), there's a bunch of ideas for fixing it.
Off-hand, I recall (and some of these will overlap and some are really general):
Bo9S-style mystic stuff. Or maybe the same sort of thing but recast into more traditional-sounding melee feats. Basically superhero fighters.
De-nerf Power Attack and Improved Trip.
More mobility, so movement plus iterative attacks (maybe trade some attacks for some movement), presumably through feats (thus targetting the feat-rich fighter).
Larger threat range so harder to avoid. Spiked Chain has this but maybe it can be featable and combined with the 'more mobility' thing above.
Better armour. Somehow. I was wondering about raising enhancement bonus limits on armour (but not changing spells' protection bonuses, although this arguably just makes fighters less dependent on casters, thus freeing up the casters to prepare more "win the fight on the 'b' of 'bang'" spells; I do, however, sort of like the idea anyhow) and adding DR to armour (without changing AC bonus) but I don't know if that'll work.
Hmmm, don't recall. What else?
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I guess we could also have raising the Dex limit on armour?
I should add that by 'larger threat range' in the post above -- which I now can't edit -- I was talking about the distance over which the combatant threatens squares so as to get more AoOs on opponents/be less avoidable, not anything to do with crits.
The Dex limit does rise with a fighter's armor training. With a fighter at level 20 (right now) you could have the following
+ 5 Full Plate (with armor training Provides: +16 AC + 5 Max Dex - 1 Armor Check Penalty) (Armor must be masterwork providing that bonus to armor check penalties AND then the fighters armor training)
+ 5 Mithral Tower Shield ( + 9 AC + 4 Max Dex - 6 Armor Check Penalty) (again with the masterworking, which is not included in the mithral's adjustments, only the mithral's cost by RAW)
+ 5 Ring of Protection
+ 5 Amulet of Natural Armor
+ 1 Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone
+ 4 Dex (capped by shield)
+ 5 Spiked Gauntlets of Defending (only 1 defending item for lack of cheese and arguements)
Total AC: 50 (30 Touch)
Gold Cost: 234,135 GP
You could hit this by level 15 if you only concentrated on your defensive items for some reason, otherwise you are looking at level 17 or 18 to have this an a decent weapon, with a little bit left over.
IF the fighter goes with adamantine full plate he'll have damage reduction 8/- (from armor and class abilities combined) if he goes with mithral he should switch to a heavy shield and boost his dex a little to get more advantage from the higher dex rating which could give him an AC: 51.
Wait forget about a total + 8 to AC? Uh Um, ah NO.
+ 4 to the armor's bonus AND the ability to get another + 4 from dex is huge, AND it is something NO other class can get therefore it does deserve mention. Does it solve all the problems, no but it does mean a lot.
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Wait forget about a total + 8 to AC? Uh Um, ah NO.
+ 4 to the armor's bonus AND the ability to get another + 4 from dex is huge, AND it is something NO other class can get therefore it does deserve mention. Does it solve all the problems, no but it does mean a lot.
I meant 'scratch it from list of fixes' as it's already in there, not remove it from the PFRPG fighter.
oh so it is a fix but we are looking at new ones, gotcha now. If a fighter is going toe to toe with a tarresque in a one on one with no displacement up or the like all I can say is the player shouldn't have argued with the DM.
that's an intereting thought but doesn't devastating strike and vital strike come close to that already?
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that's an intereting thought but doesn't devastating strike and vital strike come close to that already?
Devastating Blow doesn't scale, though (and it's only one attack as standard action). I'd like to maybe be more like Power Attack that applies to all attacks in the round, but that should then mean just increasing the threat of a critical, for me (won't do any good if the creature is really hard to hit, but I guess that's when you'd want Devastating Blow, so they don't really do entirely the same thing).
Vital Strike I do sort of like, at least given that the lowest attack is often worthless anyhow, but it pretty much can't scale.
In general, I'd like to see more scaling feats.
Devastating blow doesn't scale I agree what it does do is let you use vital strike on a standard action. These feats are the samething to a different type of action:
Devastating blow for standard actions
Vital strike/improved vital strike for full attack actions.
However more scaling would be nice. I think the fighter arguments are kind of stalling until the feat development period starts.
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Yeah, I was thinking it might be helpful, to me at least, to have a clearer mind over what fixes could be applied so I'm ready when the feats section does turn up.
Biggest ones I really want to see are the restoration of Power Attack and Improved Trip, though. Then something that lets fighters threaten more squares (as they do with a spiked chain, but without requiring the spiked chain, which just doesn't seem believable to me). And a way to make AoO damage higher.
I've got a variant fighter I've used in a couple games so far. I gave them a Combat Training ability, similar to rogue talents but with a different sort of flavor. I just felt like they needed something beyond bonus feats (that everyone can take) and weapon/armor training. We were using a few other house rules, so if an ability mentions a "Trained Save" you can just read that as "This save uses the 'good' progression (1/2 character level +2)"
Combat Training (Ex): Self discipline and training give the Fighter a surprising adaptability. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level) a fighter gains one of the following Combat Maneuvers.
Focus (Ex): The fighter adds Willpower to their list of Trained saves and adds Concentration to their list of Class skills.
Awareness (Ex): The fighter adds Reflex to their list of Trained saves and adds Perception to their list of Class skills.
Acumen (Ex): The fighter adds a +3 competence bonus to their Combat Maneuvers Bonus and on Bluff checks made to Feint.
Hustle (Ex): The fighter’s base speed increases by 10 ft. and, as a full round action, they may move up to fifteen feet then make a full attack.
Resilience (Ex): The fighter ignores the effects of Fatigued, Shaken, and Sickened. This ability does not remove these conditions, it merely allows the fighter to ignore their effects. In addition, while Dazed, Nauseated, or Stunned the Fighter may make a single Standard action each round. (This standard action replaces the move equivalent action mormally allowed while Nauseated.)
Celerity (Ex): The fighter may take a full round action during surprise rounds. In addition, the fighter is always considered armed for the purposes of determining threatened area, and may draw a weapon as part of an attack of opportunity.
Forethought (Ex): The Fighter is no longer limited to readying standard, move equivalent, and free actions. They may now ready a full round action as well. They may take a five foot step immediately, or as part of the full round action they ready, but no other action is possible on a turn in which they ready a full round action.
Some of these abilities are fairly powerful, but none are entirely game breaking and they give the fighters something that is uniquely theirs.
That would be in addition to the feats at those levels?
Correct.
On another thread, I posted some class features for the fighter which I believe will allow him to do what he was always meant to do, but which feat-chains available really don't accomplish. I am re-posting it here, hoping that I could get some input:
1) The fighter is hugely dangerous when in control of the battlefield. Anyone entering the battlefield, even a little out of reach of the fighter is in mortal danger, and should be limited in their movement options.
2) The fighter is in full control of his weapons, and can lash out in unexpected directions at times of his choosing, and anyone who thinks he can predict the fighter's combat actions is foolish and destined to feel the business-end of the fighter's weapon.
3) The fighter is a master of attacking while in motion. Anyone who turns his back on the fighter to flee is lucky to make it more than 2 steps before having his head split open.
4) The fighter is acutely aware of his opponent, and is able to predict his actions based on the subtlest of clues.
5) The fighter is master of narrowing his opponent's options. Once engaged by a fighter, you may be able to disengage, but only if you retreat in a direction of his choosing.
The following are the Class Features I propose so that the fighter can actually fulfill the roll he was created for.
Zone of Control:
At first level, any square next to a square the fighter threatens, which does not have cover or concealment from the fighter, is considered difficult terrain for anyone the fighter considers his opponent, and requires double the movement to pass through. If the terrain is already difficult terrain, it requires triple the movement to pass through. If the opponent attempts to cast a spell while in such a square, he must make a spellcraft check or lose the spell. This ability is always considered active, however the fighter may choose to deactivate or activate this ability at any time as a free action, even when it is not his turn. The squares affected by this ability do not prevent charging nor using the 5-foot step action, as difficult terrain usually does.
Always Ready:
At third level, any time a fighter is wielding a melee weapon he has the Weapon Focus feat for or for which he has Weapon Training, he may use one of his attacks of opportunity per round as a ready action instead against any foe he threatens in melee. Unlike normal readied actions, the fighter does not need to announce beforehand what actions trigger the readied action, he may simply announce that he is using it any time someone he threatens in melee does anything that could conceivably trigger a readied action. Even if the fighter has more than one attack of opportunity available to him, he still may only use one of them in this manner. Using this ability does not change the fighter's initiative, as using a normal ready action usually does. A fighter may not use this ability and the Mobile Attacker ability against the same target in the same round of combat.
Mobile Attacker:
At 6th level, once per round,any time an opponent who is threatened by the fighter leaves a threatened square, in addition to taking an attack of opportunity, the fighter may also follow the opponent's exact path at half his normal speed as an immediate action, as long as the fighter has an appropriate movement type (this ability does not grant the fighter a fly speed, burrow speed, swim speed or climb speed if he does not already have one). This movement does not count against the fighter's normal movement for the round. If the fighter has additional attacks of opportunity available, he may make one additional attack of opportunity for each square he moves with his opponent, up to, but not exceeding his total available attacks of opportunity, with each additional attack applying a cumulative -5 attack penalty. If the opponent uses a full withdrawal action, he does not suffer an attack of opportunity for his first 5 feet of movement, as normal. If the opponent attempts to tumble, he must tumble for every square in which the fighter gets an attack of opportunity. If the opponent has the Mobility feat, the fighter does not get any attacks of opportunity, but still may follow his opponent's exact path at half normal movement rate. Extra movement granted by spells or any other temporary abilities do not count toward his normal movement speed for purposes of this ability. Extra movement effects from items or that are permanent do count toward the fighter's normal movement speed for purposes of this ability. A fighter can not use this ability and the Always Ready ability against the same target in the same round of combat.
Living Wall:
At 9th level, any time an opponent that the fighter threatens in melee takes any move action that results in actual movement, and is not a five foot step, the fighter can elect to prevent movement in all directions but one. The fighter chooses one five foot square, other than any one he occupies, which is adjacent to his opponent. The opponent may move away normally if he chooses to pass through that five foot square first, however the fighter is still entitled to an attack of opportunity as normal. If the opponent chooses to not pass through the chosen five foot square first, he must make a CMB check against the fighter, as if he were performing an Overrun. The fighter gets a +4 insight bonus to his CMB for this check. The opponent is always aware of which square he can pass through without making a check. The fighter may not use this ability and the Mobile Attacker ability against the same opponent in the same round.
That's what I have so far. Perhaps there should be more at higher levels, perhaps not, but I do feel that the addition of these 4 character features would allow the fighter to be what he is supposed to be: master of the battlefield. In addition, I think some of these abilities would go a long way toward making the dex-based fighter in light armor much more viable, especially the 'mobile attacker' ability.
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Hmmm. Zone of Control looks like it might be too much piling on to the existing threatened squares wheras maybe I'd like to see an increase in the amount of threatened squares (as a spiked chain does). It seems to me that if the opponents can go 10' from the fighter ZoC doesn't matter but if they can't (in a dungeon, say) then maybe the effect is too strong, particularly when combined with Mobile Attacker. It certainly would appear to make the fighter unignorable in relatively limited quarters, though; dragging a Combat Reflexes fighter along whilst they make what's effectively an iterative attack, however.