Pathfinder Novels by Ed Greenwood or Elaine Cunningham


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Liberty's Edge

I highly recommend for you all take a serious look at the small run magazines, and small press collections and anthologies. There are more good fantasy authors than those who are marketed heavily with big budgets and hardcovers.

Every person who finds this thread interesting needs to read "The Fantasy Writer's Assistant" by Jeffrey Ford. No spoilers -- just find it and read it.

One would think the marquee authors being mentioned in this thread would charge exorbitant fees with very little loyalty to the setting. It we be a wedding with a conspicuous prenuptial arrangement. I'd rather have an author who would be an enthusiastic contributor to the setting rather than a celebrity endorsement.

The Exchange

Maybe Paizo could take the same approach WotC did with their Eberron novels and give some new, fresh authors a shot at their world. I loved the Blade of the Flame-Trilogy by Tim Waggoner as I liked the novels written by Edward Bolme, Paul Crilley and Jeff LaSala.

I wouldn't mind novels by Cunningham or Salvatore, though and I'd buy a novel written by James Jacobs in a heartbeat.

What I don't want is a more literary approach as recommended in this thread. I don't want to be educated when reading fantasy, I just want to get entertained.

If you can get Moorcock or Miéville, though, that would be great.

Sovereign Court

WormysQueue wrote:
Maybe Paizo could take the same approach WotC did with their Eberron novels ...

I am concerned about the idea of using a WotC/TSR approach to novels, particularly when the FASA-based stuff (Battletech and Shadowrun, at least; haven't read any Earthdawn fiction) published by Roc was so much better (although not always good, particularly closer to the end, it was streets ahead of most of the stuff from TSR and then WotC).


Bagpuss wrote:
get a decent author and don't be tied too closely to the game's rules.

Pfft! Why write fiction for a game world if you’re going to ignore the game rules. I don’t need to see turn-by-turn battle descriptions (mostly ‘cause I get really tired of heroes getting stabbed in the shoulders as HP dwindle down), but anything that can’t be replicated by the game rules is really going to piss me off.

Fiction based on a game world serves not only as a fantasy story, but also as a demonstration of the kind of stuff you can experience when gaming in that world. It has a certain obligation to represent that truthfully.

Having said that, though, I’ll agree that most gaming fiction I’ve read has been kind of lame. The first Castle Falkenstein novel, fer instance, didn’t even come close to the evocative premise of the game book itself, and the Scarred Lands books only succeeded in making changes to the setting that I had liked as it was originally.

Finally, I’d also prefer more new writers than established celebrity writers. Paizo’s been getting a lot of attention lately from having some fan-favorite game designers joining the club, but poaching writers from other franchises is just going to sound like Paizo’s trying to capitalize on those creator’s successes. I’m sure you could find dozen’s of talented writers whom you could convince to love Golarion enough to want to write stories in the setting. And if you don’t have a Fiction-Superstar competition on these boards for a novel contract, I’m going to burn down Redmond.

And as a complete aside:

Eryops wrote:
I am an avid fan of Sci-Fi Original Presentations.

That totally needs to be a forum tag.

Scarab Sages

Bagpuss wrote:
It might also be that a Thieve's World approach, with a bunch of short stories, has promise.

Oh yeah, that would be a good idea. It would be easier to get top-name writers on board for a short story also...

I'm a fan of some of the Eberron novels, (some weren't very good though). But Keith Baker writes pretty well.

Some of Salvatore's non-realms novels are very disappointing, as are some of his realms novels. I loved the first series with Drizz't but too much of a good thing is deadly... Cleric's Quintet was slow, and odd, with moderate surprise at the end. I really had to force my way through that series.


KnightErrantJR wrote:
I mean this as no offence to anyone, but I wonder sometimes if people have their opinion of FR fiction based on the second edition days, when nearly everyone that worked at TSR got a book contract at some point in time?

Yes. Along with the continual RSEs from later that period and all throughout the 3e period. (And I am a big FR fan, especially of the 2e Realms. That, as you should know, is despite suffering through the despicable fiction and its effects on the game world, not because of it.)

So, that would be a big "hell no" to Golarion fiction.

Sovereign Court

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:


Some of Salvatore's non-realms novels are very disappointing, as are some of his realms novels. I loved the first series with Drizz't but too much of a good thing is deadly... Cleric's Quintet was slow, and odd, with moderate surprise at the end. I really had to force my way through that series.

I don't think that Salvatore has written a good book ever, but I agree with you on the Cleric Quintet. I shudder to think what I'd think of them now, because I thought they were terrible back then.

One thing that I personally think has been terribly done in the WotC/TSR fiction is moral ambiguity and, as a more general corollary, character motivation. They have generally just seemed to be completely incapable of producing anything convincing in that regard, a few exceptions aside. Indeed, character motivations have been sorely lacking the ability to convince the reader that the characters are at all 'real' and without that, immersion is hard to achieve. And don't get me started on the almost complete lack of humour...

Paizo are good at producing adventure material with dark and light moments, believable character development and motivations, and interactions that make sense. WotC/TSR adventure material has often lacked those characteristics, in my opinion, which has also spread to their fiction (where those characteristics are significantly more important). One would hope that Paizo Pathfinder fiction, if it were written, would similarly excel where Paizo's adventure material has excelled.

Sovereign Court

Arnwyn wrote:


So, that would be a big "hell no" to Golarion fiction.

Or at least to Golarion fiction along the lines of the Forgotten Realms fiction.

No one's going to mistake Shadowrun or Battletech fiction for great literature, but some of it really wasn't bad. Genre differences aside, I'd prefer that as a model if a model for rpg-based fiction were wanted (although I'm not convinced that it is).

Scarab Sages

Bagpuss wrote:


One thing that I personally think has been terribly done in the WotC/TSR fiction is moral ambiguity and, as a more general corollary, character motivation. They have generally just seemed to be completely incapable of producing anything convincing in that regard, a few exceptions aside. Indeed, character motivations have been sorely lacking the ability to convince the reader that the characters are at all 'real' and without that, immersion is hard to achieve. And don't get me started on the almost complete lack of humour...

I'm at work atm, so I can't look at my books atm, but some of the Eberron novels do have good character development. Especially the assassin turned priest of the Silver Flame. He has his issues, but his moral judgement is often put to the test...

Sovereign Court

Xaaon of Xen'Drik wrote:

I'm at work atm, so I can look at my books atm, but some of the Eberron novels do have good character development. Especially the assassin turned priest of the Silver Flame. He has his issues, but his moral judgement is often put to the test...

I haven't read them, so I'll take your word on that (indeed, perhaps I shall take it as a recommendation, although we may find what we disagree on the quality therein, I guess). Of the stuff I've read -- all the Greyhawk stuff and much of the Forgotten Realms stuff (plus the introductory Baker Eberron trilogy, which ended my interest in reading more Eberron) -- it's not been present in any significant degree in nearly all of it. A good example of what I consider to be poor characterisation and moral ambiguity and internal struggle would be Erevis Cale, lacklustre hero of several Forgotten Realms books (although the gold standard for totally uninteresting character is clearly Drizzt, 'internal struggle' is only a minor element of the complete interest black hole that comprises the Drizzt character).

Liberty's Edge

I feel like the minority of us that keep reminding you that there is more out there than just the "big name" writers.

Get out of your comfort zone and visit the World Fantasy Awards page. Visit the Edgar Awards Page. Visit the Horror Writers Association awards page. Visit Charles de Lint's reviews on the F&SF pages (they're free to read). Check out reviews on sfsite.com. Black Gate magazine.

While you guys were repeatedly buying and reading the FR novels and whining, I was reading The Black Company series by Glen Cook and loving every minute it.

Those are just off the top of my head. Can anyone add to my list?

China Mieville would be a terrible choice! Did anybody catch the controversial remarks after his young adult novel was released? He totally disrespected the kids, his audience. Imagine what he might say about gamers.

E.E. Knight? Jack Campbell? Kage Baker? They're not A-list authors, but they have strong fan bases for their series in lovingly-developed settings. They might love to write for a new setting, and they might work at affordable prices.

You guys need to quit eating at chain restaurants and check out the local color.


Saint_Meerkat wrote:

I feel like the minority of us that keep reminding you that there is more out there than just the "big name" writers.

I do agree, on big names I would just recommend thinking a bit outside the box and looking for people who might not be that established on RPG industry or even in West European pseudomedieval fantasy.

But yeah, looking at less known people would be nice, the kind who have published some nice short stories in magazines and stuff...of course getting someone to write a trilogy of thick books based on his work on short stories is highly questionable, but then again, I'd be the first to argue that not all the fantays books in the world need to be trilogies or pentalogies.

And when i want to read a book I am looking for the book to be good as its own, not a good representation of a RPG session. So some of those books where you can pretty much see that "oh, at this point the cleric won the initiative and cast a spell x and the fighter lost his WILL save", they can be rather jarring.

Sovereign Court

Saint_Meerkat wrote:

While you guys were repeatedly buying and reading the FR novels and whining, I was reading The Black Company series by Glen Cook and loving every minute it.

You give the appearance of replying to another thread, where people are claiming that there's no good fantasy fiction (I would actually say that the genre is somewhat disappointing, but that's not the same as saying there's nothing good in it; Cook's alright, as you say).

Personally, I read Forgotten Realms fiction for Realms flavour and timeline, as I was a Realms DM and player. My point is that had it been better to read, I'd have enjoyed it more (as I did some of the Shadowrun and Battletech fiction and the Longstreet Rolemaster fiction book) and if Paizo did Golarion fiction, I'd want them to avoid the WotC/TSR model, which has produced bad fiction that I haven't enjoyed reading.

On a different topic, if they did Golarion fiction, I would want it to be canon (which adds a heavier load to the editors to Get It Right, of course).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

This thread has become a thread of game fiction hating. If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to read it.

Fact is, Ed Greenwood, Elaine Cunningham, and of course RA Salvatore sell. A lot of other Realms and Dragonlance authors don't. That's why they're still getting published. Paul Kemp is a newish arrival to that list and that's why people want him.

Troy "the Axeman" Dennings may not be the most popular author but he bounces around all the major franchises because he writes the unpopular themed books. When something bad has to happen, he seems to be the guy the franchises turn to (even if Chewbacca's death scene in RA Salvatore's Star Wars novel was AWESOME.)

Sovereign Court

SirUrza wrote:

This thread has become a thread of game fiction hating. If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to read it.

Fact is, Ed Greenwood, Elaine Cunningham, and of course RA Salvatore sell. A lot of other Realms and Dragonlance authors don't. That's why they're still getting published. Paul Kemp is a newish arrival to that list and that's why people want him.

Troy "the Axeman" Dennings may not be the most popular author but he bounces around all the major franchises because he writes the unpopular themed books. When something bad has to happen, he seems to be the guy the franchises turn to (even if Chewbacca's death scene in RA Salvatore's Star Wars novel was AWESOME.)

I don't think that anyone's telling Paizo what will sell, which is the issue you're addressing; it seems to me that Paizo, being in the publishing business including the publishing of fiction, don't need to get advice from us on the market. Speaking for myself, I'm just saying what I'd like to read.

Also, regarding game fiction: as I said, I like some of it (some of the Shadowrun and Battletech fiction in particular, but there were some decent Realms books plus the Greyhawk book by Robin Wayne Bailey).


Will a line of Golarion novels mean an end to the Pathfinder journals in the backs of all the PF mods? While it's good stuff and helps give some depth and color to the world, I'd just as soon see that space filled with extra gaming stuff if I'm going to be getting depth and color from the novels.


SirUrza wrote:
This thread has become a thread of game fiction hating. If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to read it.

*shrug* When the novel f&!*s up the game world, yeah, I'm being "forced to read it" in a sense.

If the novels can be self-contained and not affect the game world at all (to a point that any discussion about whether a novel is "canon" or not to be completely meaningless), then maybe I'll be interested. But I'll tag that with a "fat chance" and a dash of "I'll believe it when I see it". I do hope to be pleasantly surprised.

(But OTOH - a plus on the novel side would be that the Pathfinder journal section in the APs would hopefully be removed. While I was hoping the Chronicles line would do that, maybe some hypothetical novels would put a bullet in that zombie's head.)

The Exchange

Bagpuss wrote:
I am concerned about the idea of using a WotC/TSR approach to novels,

To avoid misunderstandings, I didn't suggest that Paizo should use the same authors, but that they shouldn't look so much for names as for fresh talents. That's what WotC did with the Inquisitive-series and I have to admit that I liked the results.

By the way, Tim Waggoner is the author of the trilogy mentioned by Xaoon. I'm not sure if you'll like them especially as you have a dislike for quite some authors whose books I'd buy in a heartbeat but generally I'd recommend them to anyone with an interest in good fantasy literature.

As I'd recommend "The Left Hand of Death" by Parker DeWolf, a really well-done hommage to the "Maltese Falcon" which adds perfectly to the general athmosphere of the Eberron setting.

Sovereign Court

It sounds like the Eberron stuff might be rather better than the Forgotten Realms stuff; as I said, I only read The Dreaming Dark (which I didn't much like) and as I had no intention of playing in Eberron I saved myself the expected mental agony of reading more...

Contributor

Hey folks! Sorry I didn't run across this thread sooner. As someone who's been helping to spearhead the Pathfinder Fiction project so far, let me give some quick shotgun-scatter answers and comments:

*Pathfinder novels ARE coming. We have no schedules built up, but we're working hard to make them a reality as soon as possible. Even once they start, though, we'll continue to bring you serialized Pathfinder novellas via the Pathfinder's Journal - Elaine's just the first top-notch author you'll be seeing show up there.

*You'll definitely be seeing names you recognize on the Pathfinder novels - you'd be surprised, in this current market, to discover how many of the Big Kids are willing to come play in your sandbox if you ask them properly. Elaine is a perfect example of the sort of solid, name-recognition folks we want to bring on board to help develop our world.

*We're well aware of the dangers of having both fiction and gaming products developing canon, and there are several ways of avoiding conflict. The first one, of course, is to have your two departments working hand in hand, which has worked well for us so far (there are even a number of easter eggs in the Pathfinder's Journal, if you're playing the adventure paths). Second really has to do with scope - the best novels are not necessarily the ones with the biggest "footprint" in your world. You don't always have to have your hero kill the evil king and overthrow a nation - it can be just as interesting to have him struggle with more personal things, have his successes and failures be heroic yet still small-scale enough that, when you zoom out to the level with which gaming products are concerned, his deeds are almost invisible. The bad guy can just be a bad guy, not a god or an emperor, and if we're going to do some sort of huge world-changing event, it should probably be done via an Adventure Path rather than a novel. So while I think that our novels probably will be "canon," in that they take place in the same world as all our other products, we're going to watch carefully to make sure it doesn't become a problem.

*While I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see a Golarion novel written by some of the staffers, the fact remains that any one of us biting off a novel would mean months and months of not being able to do any freelance for the gaming side of things, which is still our bread and butter. With the frantic pace we're currently operating at, I'd prefer to see us keep things out of house for the first year.

*I don't expect that China Mieville has any interest in Pathfinder fiction, as he's busy being one of the hottest authors in contemporary fantasy, but I want to point out that he's a great guy and has been a good friend to Paizo. We're currently working with him on several Planet Stories projects, and he's been nothing but awesome... way more chill and accessible than a lot of folks. (Don' be talkin' no smack 'bout China, a'ight? :)

*There are no plans to do a "Fiction Superstar" for a novel anytime in the visible future. While I think it would be an awesome opportunity - one that I'd go for myself, if I didn't work here! - we: A) Don't have the manpower to handle a slush pile of that magnitude, and B) need to start the line off as strong as possible to be sure it succeeds. Frankly, most of the folks we've been talking to thus far have been New York Times bestsellers, and I'd love to have our novels known for that level of prestige and craftsmanship...

Alright, that's all I've got for now. Please keep throwing out questions, author ideas, etc. - we're listening!


James Sutter wrote:
Even once they start, though, we'll continue to bring you serialized Pathfinder novellas via the Pathfinder's Journal

Boo!


James Sutter wrote:
Second really has to do with scope - the best novels are not necessarily the ones with the biggest "footprint" in your world. You don't always have to have your hero kill the evil king and overthrow a nation - it can be just as interesting to have him struggle with more personal things, have his successes and failures be heroic yet still small-scale enough that, when you zoom out to the level with which gaming products are concerned, his deeds are almost invisible. The bad guy can just be a bad guy, not a god or an emperor, and if we're going to do some sort of huge world-changing event, it should probably be done via an Adventure Path rather than a novel. So while I think that our novels probably will be "canon," in that they take place in the same world as all our other products, we're going to watch carefully to make sure it doesn't become a problem.

Too bad in-house isn't an option. I'd like to see what you guys could do. That being the case, I think it is vital that the editing rest in the hands of someone who knows Golarion cold, which I guess is my way of asking:

Will the editing stay in-house?

The editor has to have the wherewithal to get the author to go back and change things that just won't fit, no matter who that author is. I think your idea of keeping things small-scale is good, but the small-scale still has to fit into things as a whole. For example, if characters pass through some small village of humans but the author has put that village in the Hold of Belkzen... Too often, game fiction lets things like that slide.

Edit:

James Sutter wrote:
Even once they start, though, we'll continue to bring you serialized Pathfinder novellas via the Pathfinder's Journal

Missed this part first. Ahem, Huzzah!


Fletch wrote:
Will a line of Golarion novels mean an end to the Pathfinder journals in the backs of all the PF mods? While it's good stuff and helps give some depth and color to the world, I'd just as soon see that space filled with extra gaming stuff if I'm going to be getting depth and color from the novels.

I like the journal.

SirUrza wrote:
(even if Chewbacca's death scene in RA Salvatore's Star Wars novel was AWESOME.)

His dying words were easily the most touching in any novel:

"Wrrrrrrrrrrrrrr"*

*Translation

Spoiler:
I iz in ur hevenz. Stealin' yur aftalife


Daeglin wrote:
James Sutter wrote:
Even once they start, though, we'll continue to bring you serialized Pathfinder novellas via the Pathfinder's Journal
Missed this part first. Ahem, Huzzah!

Huzzah!


I don't really care who gets to write it. I just want to read Pathfinder novels. LoL

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
James Sutter wrote:
*We're well aware of the dangers of having both fiction and gaming products developing canon, and there are several ways of avoiding conflict. The first one, of course, is to have your two departments working hand in hand, which has worked well for us so far (there are even a number of easter eggs in the Pathfinder's Journal, if you're playing the adventure paths).

They NEED to work together, they MUST work together. TSR and Wizards have botched it so many times because one hand doesn't know what the other is doing.

Novel : Supplement
------------------------
Evermeet : Cormanthyr Empire of the Elves
The Thousands Orcs : Silver Marches
War of the Spider Queen : City of the Spider Queen (and to that end, Year of the Drow web event.)

I won't even get into the fact that later big events didn't even get supplement coverage.

So yes, please please please work together and please please please don't publish a product until BOTH groups read both.... or at the very least make sure the author has every copy draft (or final) of the supplement related to the novel so the 2 products that are supposed to go together actually go together.

James Sutter wrote:
Second really has to do with scope - the best novels are not necessarily the ones with the biggest "footprint" in your world. You don't always have to have your hero kill the evil king and overthrow a nation - it can be just as interesting to have him struggle with more personal things, have his successes and failures be heroic yet still small-scale enough that, when you zoom out to the level with which gaming products are concerned, his deeds are almost invisible.

Yes, but they can still be cool. How about a novel set in Sandpoint after the events of Burnt Offerings? A Prequel novel leading up Crimson Throne? I could go on but it's unnecessary.

The Star Wars universe has far fewer problems because the authors are supplied with all the material they need and if they don't have editors available that are knowledgeable about a subject, they have a list of fans they can trust to help.

James Sutter wrote:
The bad guy can just be a bad guy, not a god or an emperor, and if we're going to do some sort of huge world-changing event, it should probably be done via an Adventure Path rather than a novel. So while I think that our novels probably will be "canon," in that they take place in the same world as all our other products, we're going to watch carefully to make sure it doesn't become a problem.

Not necessarily. Like I said if you guys had a prequel Crimson Throne a novel could be really interesting. Pretend it wasn't out yet. In May of 2009 you could release the prequel novel, about ascension of the Queen, the death of the king, and how she takes over the kingdom. Heck, there can even be a hero that tries to stop her a fails. Then in June of 2009, you release Curse ofthe Crimson Thone, an Adventure Path about defeating the Queen.

It's a perfect setup in my honest opinion.

Grand Lodge

I will keep tossing Steven Schend's name out, I'm sure he'd love to write something (especially if Nethys was involved).

Liberty's Edge

Halfway there!

Woo-hoo!!


frankly, Elaine Cunningham is a much better fiction writer. I am an old old FR devotee but I never thought Ed Greenwood was good novelist


I like Ed's work... I also like Elaine's work.

you dont like Ed's work, thats fine.
you know with lots of authors out there, and different writing styles, you can choose your own.
that aside, dont pass upa good novel just becuase you dont care for a certain author.

that said, I dont like reading anything that seams to have been written as a mystery novel, the book may have been entertaining, but if I can pun it off of the old board game clue you will never here the end.

let me spoil one of wotc's

Ed Greenwood Presents WAterdeep books.
the city of the dead:
It was the old man, in the yard with a book.

anyway I look forward to see who else besides the most esteemed Elaine Cunningham writes pathfinder novels.


Steelfiredragon:
Did you see the David Gross book, Prince of Wolves? Also, Paul Kemp appears to be in the future.

Shadow Lodge

Woo Woo Woo! Yes please get Mr Ed of the Greenwood to write 'Golarionlore'. Please!:-D

This announcement has me bouncing of the walls. I feel like Daffy Duck...


Steelfiredragon wrote:

I like Ed's work... I also like Elaine's work.

you dont like Ed's work, thats fine.

Don't get me wrong. When it comes to Settings and Game Supplements Ed is the absolute best

I can't get through any of his novels though


Mairkurion {tm} wrote:

Steelfiredragon:

Did you see the David Gross book, Prince of Wolves? Also, Paul Kemp appears to be in the future.

I did 20 min after

Shadow Lodge

Don't mind steelfire, he can be a little slow at times.;)


MerrikCale wrote:
Steelfiredragon wrote:

I like Ed's work... I also like Elaine's work.

you dont like Ed's work, thats fine.

Don't get me wrong. When it comes to Settings and Game Supplements Ed is the absolute best

I can't get through any of his novels though

He wrote one together with Elaine. Waterdeep. I thought it was really good.

I liked Ed's novels, but they sure are not for everyone. The heroes are usually powerful and in control almost all the time.

They're good, but not superb.

But we agree that when he wrote FR supplements, they were top notch.

The Exchange

Steelfiredragon wrote:

that said, I dont like reading anything that seams to have been written as a mystery novel, the book may have been entertaining, but if I can pun it off of the old board game clue you will never here the end.

let me spoil one of wotc's

Ed Greenwood Presents WAterdeep books.
the city of the dead:
It was the old man, in the yard with a book.

I really liked City of the Dead but on the other hand I didn't read it as a mystery book (at least as far as the main plot was concerned) but more as kind of a romantic novel. I actually liked Rosemary Jones' humor and her characters so I guess that if she wrote a golarion novel that would do it for me, too.


18DELTA wrote:
Don't mind steelfire, he can be a little slow at times.;)

Brimstone at Loremaster and Candlekeep right???

I miss the smilies

and I have to request you to remove that from your post.....

Shadow Lodge

Steelfiredragon wrote:
18DELTA wrote:
Don't mind steelfire, he can be a little slow at times.;)

Brimstone at Loremaster and Candlekeep right???

I miss the smilies

and I have to request you to remove that from your post.....

The one and only!;)

For some reason I can't edit that post, or I would sf. No offence meant.=)

Shadow Lodge

Ed at Loremaster.org in the interview section, said:

Ed Greenwood wrote:

I'd like nothing more than to write a long string of New York Times-bestselling fantasy classics set in Golarion...but we'll just have to see.

If you want to see something like that, please let the good folks at Paizo know. Really.
I'll be standing by, eagerly.

=]

http://www.loremaster.org/vbinterviews.php?do=showinterview&id=6


Hopefully this won't come across badly to my former fellow Candlekeepers. I have no reservations about Elaine writing for Paizo, at all, ever. She is a great author that does a wonderful job of understanding the feel of a setting and writing on a personal level rather than tearing a setting apart or making too broad pronouncements about a region or a topic or what have you.

With Elaine, you read about characters that live in the world you like, not about the world you like and how some characters come along and get batted around by the events in the book.

Ed Greenwood created a wonderful world in the Realms. I liked the Old Grey Boxed Set, but I fell in love with the setting when I read Waterdeep and the North.. Some of my favorite 2nd Edition work had to do with Ed's sourcebooks, be it the Volo's Guides, the Ruins of Undemountain or Myth Drannor, Anauroch, or Halls of the High King. I love the world Ed weaves with his words.

That having been said, Ed tends to lose his focus in novels. You learn about a million intricacies of casting a spell, and a thousand new minor magic items, but you lose track of who is casting and why. Then the beggar on pages 12-16 and the guardsman on page 102-112, and the whore on page 240-224 all show up again, and even though there wasn't much in those pages to indicate it, all of them are agents of this or that power and show up in the last chapter to add to the giant pile on that erupts.

Its not that I don't like to have tons of intricate plots and multiple power groups acting, its that the clues that these guys are working for any given group are really obscure, and the main clue that they are going to be important is lost because another whore or guardsman got almost as many pages somewhere else in the book, and none of the pages even begin to foreshadow that they might be Zhentarim or Cult of the Dragon or Red Wizard spies.

Now, after that bit of reproach, let me also say that Ed Greenwood also has in just about every book multiple scenes that I love. Conversations between friends, commentaries on adventuring and adventurers, idyllic pastoral views of the setting and what its like to actually live there. These are actually really nice, and they are often worth navigating the confusing array of characters, terms, and ongoing plot fireworks.

Two more positives I'll throw out there (again, my opinion, and obviously those will vary) about Ed, and not just because I feel guilty for throwing all of that out there.

1. I like parts of Ed's work, and I like Jeff Grubb's work, but the best I saw of both of them was when they worked together on Cormyr. The same thing is true of Troy Denning and Death of the Dragon. I think Ed is a really strong collaborator, especially when teamed with someone that is going to drive the story forward while Ed provides details and context here and there.

2. I think the Knights of Myth Drannor books, where Ed got to focus on a low level adventuring group encountering the world at a bit of a slower pace than, say, Shandril in the Spellfire books, were some of Ed's strongest solo works.


taig wrote:
An author whose take on Golarion I'd like to see is China Mieville. His work would fit right in with some of the pulp/weird fantasy Pathfinder strives for.

Time Capsule:

Who the hell are you? STFU, n00b!


KnightErrantJR wrote:
That having been said, Ed tends to loose his focus in novels. You learn about a million intricacies of casting a spell, and a thousand new minor magic items, but you loose track of whose casting and why. Then the beggar on pages 12-16 and the guardsman on page 102-112, and the whore on page 240-224 all show up again, and even though there wasn't much in those pages to indicate it, all of them are agents of this or that power and show up in the last chapter to add to the giant pile on that erupts.

I am with you

he's also very clunky with his writing and the dialogue is downright terrible

Sovereign Court

Knight, Merrik: I agree with your comments on Ed's style. Let me add this though: I used to enjoy his style immensely when he was talking about HIS world (i.e. Elminster series books during the 1st and 2nd edition days).

The moments WotC came and started nuking the Realms, this is where I started to witness that his style was almost used "reluctantly" by him... (i.e. his style worked best when he had free reign over artistic content... as soon as they put him in a smaller playpen and said "you can't go to the beach anymore, but go and play in this little sandbox we made you", then the less entertaining stuff occured)

I mean, how much interesting stuff can you come up with when you're being told "Elminster has been kicked out of the prime by a shadow wizard and he'll be in Hell for the next three years" ??? I mean, Ed CREATED that prime, and he's being told it's off limit? O_X


Allen Stewart wrote:
And since everyone's naming authors, couldn't we hire Crichton or Grisham to write a novel? How much would it cost to get them on board for a single novel?

How much would it cost to have Crichton write a novel?....If you mean Michael Crichton it might mean your soul in trade to the dark forces required to raise him from the dead.

Paizo Employee Chief Creative Officer, Publisher

taig wrote:
An author whose take on Golarion I'd like to see is China Mieville. His work would fit right in with some of the pulp/weird fantasy Pathfinder strives for.

It's cool that in the two years since this was posted, we were able to get China Mieville to create a chunk of Golarion in the form of Outsea, in the Guide to the River Kingdoms.

China is a long-time gamer and a great guy. We published his world as a campaign setting in Dragon, he's written Planet Stories introductions and has a story in an upcoming book. He's great.

He's also WAY too huge a writer to have the time to do something like a Pathfinder novel.


Erik Mona wrote:
He's also WAY too huge a writer to have the time to do something like a Pathfinder novel.

That's a very honest and brave thing to admit :)

It's also immensely humorous to me, since I'd never heard of him before the Guide to the River Kingdoms.

Edit: But okay, Outsea is hugely awesome - good job China!


Erik Mona wrote:

China is a long-time gamer and a great guy. We published his world as a campaign setting in Dragon, he's written Planet Stories introductions and has a story in an upcoming book. He's great.

He's also WAY too huge a writer to have the time to do something like a Pathfinder novel.

Is this a hint?


China Mieville couldn't wash Tolkien's jock.

BluePigeon wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

China is a long-time gamer and a great guy. We published his world as a campaign setting in Dragon, he's written Planet Stories introductions and has a story in an upcoming book. He's great.

He's also WAY too huge a writer to have the time to do something like a Pathfinder novel.

Is this a hint?

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

Barbarossa wrote:
China Mieville couldn't wash Tolkien's jock.

Well, crass as that might be, I'm not holding out many hopes that we see any significant Tolkien contributions in the Pathfinder setting anytime soon.

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