Intelligence adds to skill points?

[Crosswind]

I'm having trouble finding the answer to this in the PFRPG book:

If I gain a point of intelligence at level 4 (from 17 to 18), do I gain 4 more skill points (for levels 1, 2, 3 and 4), or just the skill point for 4?

I am curious - all other stat increases affect previous levels (con gives hit points, for instance). Is this consistent for intelligence in PRPG too?

-Cross

[Wicht]

Constitutional hitpoint adjustments were always the only retroactive increase that I know of. Can you give other examples of a retroactive increase?

Intelligence gains by level increase, under 3.0 and 3.5, never increased skills learned before the leveling. Each level gained thereafter, of course, benefits from the increase in intelligence.

[Crosswind]

I was curious because:

“Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.” p.388

This seems to indicate that, if you are a wizard with 16 int, wearing +2 int item, that you gain 2+4=6 skill points a level. But you lose points when you take off the crown.

...the only way any of this really makes sense is if:
Long-duration changes in intelligence don't cause you to gain/lose skill points (Same as 3.5).
OR
Long-duration changes in intelligence always cause you to gain/lose skill points (...retroactive, like CON and HP).

...which of these is it, or is it some weird fusion?

-Cross

[Chris Mortika]

One of the design goals of Pathfinder was to allow designers and DM's to stat up higher-level NPCs without having to build them one level at a time. That is, your brand-new 9th-Level NPC comes into play with two stat increases (from 4th and 8th Levels). If Pathfinder design goals were met, you wouldn't need to know whether she took none, one, or both of her stat increases in Intelligence.

The only way that works is for the Intelligence modifier to skills to be retroactive in Pathfinder.

[Crosswind]

Chris Mortika wrote:

One of the design goals of Pathfinder was to allow designers and DM's to stat up higher-level NPCs without having to build them one level at a time. That is, your brand-new 9th-Level NPC comes into play with two stat increases (from 4th and 8th Levels). If Pathfinder design goals were met, you wouldn't need to know whether she took none, one, or both of her stat increases in Intelligence.

The only way that works is for the Intelligence modifier to skills to be retroactive in Pathfinder.

I agree. Does anybody have any evidence from a PF guy or otherwise (or even the beta) that this is true?

-Cross

[Arakhor]

No, Intelligence is not retroactive, unlike all other ability scores.

The difficulty you're having is that headbands of intellect do not grant you extra skill points to spend - they grant them in the form of pre-set skills with ranks equal to your total hit dice. These pre-set skills do not change after the creation of the item.

[Gamer Girrl]

Wow ... apparently we've been playing this one wrong for years. My group has always used the retroactive on all skills, somehow having missed that specific note on Int and Skills. ::shrug::

Personally, I'm sticking with the retroactive on all. Makes bookkeeping a heck of a lot easier on all concerned.

[Crosswind]

Arakhor - Rules or Pathfinder guy citation, other than "That's how it was in 3.5"?

The fact that temporary bonuses tag extra skills for you sure seems to imply that they want 22 intelligence to be +6 skills...no matter how and when you got it.

Couple that with the design goal of being easily able to stat up high level NPCs, and it would seem like a bit of a glaring error that intelligence isn't retroactive.

-Cross

[Arakhor]

Well, under Constitution, it notes that if your Con changes, so do your total hit points, but it doesn't say that under Intelligence. What it does say is that your Int score governs your bonus languages at the start of the game.

Besides which, since PF is all about "use 3.5 until we change it", the default rule would apply.

[Crosswind]

Arakhor wrote:

Well, under Constitution, it notes that if your Con changes, so do your total hit points, but it doesn't say that under Intelligence. What it does say is that your Int score governs your bonus languages at the start of the game.

Besides which, since PF is all about "use 3.5 until we change it", the default rule would apply.

Ok. Makes sense to me - that's probably how the rules are.

Now, a question of "Should they be like this?" =)

Pros and Cons of Retro-active Skill Ranks:

Pros:
Easier to stat up NPCs (don't have to worry about what order they got stats in)
Intelligence boosts are worth getting for PCs who don't have INT as a primary stat. Without it, there is little incentive to increase INT, as opposed to other stats.
Consistency - everything's retroactive.

Cons:
Possibly gives people who increase INT anyways too many skill ranks.

In the end, the difference for a guy who pumps all INT is either 3+11+19 = 33 skill points over 20 levels or 7+15 = 22 skill points over 20 levels. Not a huge deal, but might be significant.

I'm sort of in favor of it being retroactive, but I like to encourage smart characters.

-Cross

[Chris Mortika]

Gamer Girrl wrote:

Wow ... apparently we've been playing this one wrong for years. My group has always used the retroactive on all skills, somehow having missed that specific note on Int and Skills.

(nods) We've been house-ruling it as retroactive as well.

[Wicht]

It seems to me that the retroactive increase makes sense from a gamist standpoint, but from a more realistic standpoint makes no sense at all. In essence the bump ends up causing the PC to suddenly be fully proficient in a single skill that formerly he was untrained in.

I wouldn't be totally against it, but it would make for some interesting retroactive backstorying - "Sure Bob was always an excellent world-class cook, that souffle he ruined 12 levels ago was a mere fluke."

[Chris Mortika]

Wicht wrote:

It seems to me that the retroactive increase makes sense from a gamist standpoint, but from a more realistic standpoint makes no sense at all. In essence the bump ends up causing the PC to suddenly be fully proficient in a single skill that formerly he was untrained in.

That's the case without the sudden bump, Wicht. When my high-intelligence 3.5 rogue gains his 9th level, he can plough all (8 + Int bonus) skill points into one skill. Pecos Bob becomes a great cook, or a wonder at Diplomacy, or an Olympic-level swimmer, overnight.

Would you be happier with it, simulation-wise, if the new skill points that came from a boost in Intelligence were required to all be spent on different skills?

[Tarren Dei]

Think Jarod.

[Wicht]

Chris Mortika wrote:

That's the case without the sudden bump, Wicht. When my high-intelligence 3.5 rogue gains his 9th level, he can plough all (8 + Int bonus) skill points into one skill. Pecos Bob becomes a great cook, or a wonder at Diplomacy, or an Olympic-level swimmer, overnight.

True that. Put that way, I see that I have in fact already had this happen and it wasn't that big a deal.

BUT... the potential book-keeping in adding in skill points from magical items and then removing them makes me think there should be a better way to handle the magical ability/skill boost.

[Wicht]

Tarren Dei wrote:

Think Jarod.

I must confess you forced me to google.

[Tarren Dei]

Wicht wrote:

Tarren Dei wrote:

Think Jarod.

I must confess you forced me to google.

To save anyone else having to do it.

A highly intelligent, skill-oriented character could pull off a 'Pretender' type development. Max out one specific knowledge, profession, or craft each level. Continue to put ranks in bluff and charisma-based skills. Roleplay it effectively. It would be a cool character for an urban adventure. ;-)

[Sir Hexen Ineptus]

I wish we could get some clarification from Jason or another person from Paizo involved in PDnD.

[toyrobots]

Regardless of the RAW,

We ALWAYS apply ability mods retro-actively. Skill points, HP, whatever.

Makes it easier to reverse-engineer characters if it comes to it. One of my favorite parts of pathfinder is that the order of classes makes less difference. I'd like to see that continue.

[LazarX]

Chris Mortika wrote:

One of the design goals of Pathfinder was to allow designers and DM's to stat up higher-level NPCs without having to build them one level at a time. That is, your brand-new 9th-Level NPC comes into play with two stat increases (from 4th and 8th Levels). If Pathfinder design goals were met, you wouldn't need to know whether she took none, one, or both of her stat increases in Intelligence.

The only way that works is for the Intelligence modifier to skills to be retroactive in Pathfinder.

For the most part, NPC's don't need to be completely stated to the level of player characters, the only things that matter are the skills relevant to the NPC's presence in the campaign. It's even more true if the NPC is a one-time encounter, for a sorcerer for example, you really only need to make assumptions about his feats, i.e. combat casting metamatic etc. and skills such as concentration and spellcraft. It's really doubtful that for most cases you've need to track his skill in Advanced Basketweaving. And he's not going to be crafting items in the middle of combat.

For the most part, comparatively few, very few NPCs need the full workup. Only the significant parts matter.

[Crosswind]

Hrm. Can you do polls on this messageboard? Seems like a great deal of people apply them retroactively already.

-Cross

[Selgard]

Regardless- they still need to be able to create fully statted NPC's relatively easily. The fact that you may choose not to saves you time but doesn't mean that others don't need a simple, relatively efficient means of doing so.

Making skill points from permanent intelligence gain is an easy way to do so that doesn't particularly un-balance anything.

-S

[Sean K Reynolds]

It's a hard-to-spot reference, but yes, in the PFRPG, skill point bonuses from long-term Int increases are retroactive.

[Set]

Another wonky bit about Int-item-added skill points is the character who takes off and puts on that item. He loses the skill points, and if he had learned a new skill (a Knowledge skill, for instance), it goes away completely. When he puts the item on again, does he have to spend the points on that same Knowledge skill again, or can he become an idiot savant, getting eight skill points in *any skill he wants* by putting on that headband...

I've seen one house-ruled suggestion that a character with an Int-boost item or spell gets double his new Int mod in skill bonuses to all Int-based skills. In this case, a Wizard with Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft would gain +2 to his skill checks with a +2 Headband, which would be double the normal gains. This would prevent a character from putting on said headband and arbitrarily deciding to be better at Concentration today, Diplomacy tomorrow and Perform (jawharp) for the big hootnanny on Thursday.

Limiting the extra bonus only to Int-based skills could have advantages and disadvantes (characters with no Int-based skills may appear to have been rooked compared to the effects on someone with ranks in half of the Knowledge skills).

We always did the retroactive thing as well. Skill points, hit points, whatever. Nobody wants to write up a character at each level and keep a stack of old character sheets around for back-reference...

[Krome]

Gosh darn it all to to heck. It was so much simpler before this question was ever asked. I see both sides as being perfectly valid.

I would think the easiest way to deal with permanent Int based boosts is to make any item linked with specific skills which are granted a specific bonus. So a Headband of Intellect +4 would grant +2 to Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Religion) in addition to +4 Int. Of course the GM could easily modify the skills based upon the situation. However, this requires a complete rewrite of the items.

As an individual GM however, it might be easier to hand out the item and have the skills listed specificly. For one it adds more character, and msytery to the item. A plain boring Headband +4 becomes more cool just with the skill bonuses added.

I like to do something like that with weapons and armor already. Any item I give out MIGHT have a stat boost or a specific extra ability that is interesting. My favorite was a Magic Belt. It added Strength as usual, but also added +2 to the PCs Charisma against anyone that would be "attracted" to the character. It was called a Codpiece of Masculinity.

But I doubt that something like this would work for the rules in general.

[Jason Bulmahn]

Hey there all,

Int bonuses are retroactive, as mentioned in the permanent Int bonus paragraph on pg 388. Magic Items that grant an Int bonus come with skills attached. All bonus skill points granted by these items are placed into the associated skills (see headband of vast intelligence, pg 378).

I am going to clear up the language a bit on pg 388 to make this a bit more clear.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

[Arakhor]

Could that also be added to the stats description on pages 6-7? I'm sure that would also help in clearing up the issue.

[Shisumo]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Magic Items that grant an Int bonus come with skills attached. All bonus skill points granted by these items are placed into the associated skills (see headband of vast intelligence, pg 378).

I plan to bring this back up when we get to the magic items chapter, but I wanted to put it out now, just for the record: the creation requirements for a headband of vast intellect need to include being trained in the skill(s) that the headband grants.

[LazarX]

Selgard wrote:

Regardless- they still need to be able to create fully statted NPC's relatively easily. The fact that you may choose not to saves you time but doesn't mean that others don't need a simple, relatively efficient means of doing so.

-S

There really isn't any shortcut to the process, but maybe one of the things that Paizo will come out with might be a Book of Mooks, similiar to the rogues gallery that TSR put out a LOOONG time a go, basically a book that had sheets of pre-rolled stats and a some detailed NPC's like the infamous Eric the Mad. (who was played by Eric Gygax if memory serves)

[LazarX]

Set wrote:

We always did the retroactive thing as well. Skill points, hit points, whatever. Nobody wants to write up a character at each level and keep a stack of old character sheets around for back-reference...

Heroforge made tracking skillups by level rather easy.