Pathfinder clerics- the fuzzy end of the lollipop


General Discussion (Prerelease)

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Yeah, I'm working up a Pathfinder beta cleric for CoCT and had the same reaction. Channel Energy rules, but the domains suck. One, the powers are too few and far between. Two, with the old domain spells you still advanced in them with most prestige classes, is it was linked to spellcasting progression. Now, if you p-class you don't get the domain powers either. And as others have noted, it's not just a power thing, it's a cool distinctiveness thing.

In the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting book there's a "Holy Warrior" option to lose both domains to get d10 HD and fighter BAB - I am so all over that. After looking over the domains I thought "I definitely won't be sad to lose them..."

Of course the real suckburger in all this is the pally, especially with that Holy Warrior option. "Hey look, I'm a pally with real spells! No horse? Oh, whatever shall I do in the Tomb of frickin' Horrors without my horsie!!!"


LogicNinja wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Note that these Divine Power has been changed.
I was responding to "I don't get why the 3.x cleric was considered overpowered."

I know. My point is that most of the effort at reducing the power of full spellcasting classes is being done by nerfing individual spells (Divine Power, Animal Growth, Grease, Web, Glitterdust, etc.) rather than changing other factors like a character's number of spells per day (say).

By the way, it's good to see you around and commenting on the Pathfinder rules. Welcome!

With regards to the original poster's comment, I don't think they made a deliberate attempt to make the domain abilities more useful in combat. Note the pattern of abilities:

Level 2: Cast a level 1 spell level/2 per day.
Level 4: Cast a level 2 spell 1/day.
Level 12: Cast a level 5 spell 1/day.
Level 16: Cast a level 7 spell 1/day.
Level 20: Cast a level 9 spell 1/day.

They literally just picked the level 1, 2, 5, 7, and 9 spells from the 3.5 Plant domain in this case. I agree that the Pathfinder Plant domain ability is kind of lame, though.


IconoclasticScream wrote:
Werecorpse wrote:
So for this reason tinkering was/is a good idea. I just dont like this tinker. It went beyond fix what was broken (some domains) and ended up lame. It's like they had a good idea for sorcerers and wizards so tacked on a simliar theme for clerics.
I'm not trying to slight Jason in the least- I promise I have nothing but respect for him undertaking this herculean task- but the revised domains seemed rushed, with change made for the sake of change. . The good news is, if enough people agree there needs to be a change to the way they're presented in the Beta, we have ten months to fix them.

First of all, that was an excellent well thought out and organized OP. Second, you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned we have 10 months to fix the the clerk domain which I understand is the purpose of the massive playtest.

Dark Archive

One more vote for just using the old Domain powers and spell lists.

As LogicNinja has pointed out, changing the Domain powers does little or nothing to balance out the Cleric (re-designing Divine Power and Righteous Might to not stomp on Fighter toes would, as well as taking out behind the woodshed any player that utters the words 'Divine Metamagic' or 'Nightsticks').

It seems primarily to be a flavor change, and it's not a flavor I care for.

On the other hand, quite a few Domain abilities are dealt with inconsistently. Flipping through Complete Divine, there are examples of characters who'se level-based Domain abilities progress only with Cleric levels, with Cleric + PrC levels, with just PrC levels, or, in one case, based on a number that has nothing to do with any combination of class levels on the character. The Paragnostic Apostle, from Complete Champion, is, AFAIK, the only PrC that specifically advances Domain-based abilities, leaving every other Cleric who wants a level-based Domain ability like Protection or Destruction holding their cheese and wishing they'd taken Luck or War, which are fully useful with only a single level of Cleric. It gets even sillier with PrCs like the one in Faiths of Eberron that grants 9 extra Domains over 9 levels, as the Cleric 6 / Speaker 9 will have two Domains stuck at level 6 and nine Domains stuck at level 9, which is just a book-keeping pain in the backside!

And then there's those darn alignment Domains, which usually give only spells that the Cleric already had on his list anyway, and have terribly dull Domain powers. Yeah, +1 to Evil spells, hoopty-crappity-doo. Or I can give my evil Cleric NPCs Death & Destruction and kill someone right in the face!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

To comment on the Original Post:

His analysis is completely correct, and utterly wrong. And unintentionally misleading.

His careful analysis shows that the Plant Domain in 3.5 could easily be argued to be better than the Plant Domain in Pathfinder. This is quite correct.

What is wrong is that he completely ignores that you get the powers and spells of BOTH Domains in Pathfinder, where you only got a single domain spell per level from EITHER domain in 3.5. Clerics have not been nerfed in this way.

For flavor? There seem to be some unfortunate gaps in specific spells. But the 1st and 8th level domain powers offer SO much more flavor than any spell (or really domain power) did in 3.5. That's just opinion of course.


Majuba wrote:

To comment on the Original Post:

His analysis is completely correct, and utterly wrong. And unintentionally misleading.

His careful analysis shows that the Plant Domain in 3.5 could easily be argued to be better than the Plant Domain in Pathfinder. This is quite correct.

What is wrong is that he completely ignores that you get the powers and spells of BOTH Domains in Pathfinder, where you only got a single domain spell per level from EITHER domain in 3.5. Clerics have not been nerfed in this way.

For flavor? There seem to be some unfortunate gaps in specific spells. But the 1st and 8th level domain powers offer SO much more flavor than any spell (or really domain power) did in 3.5. That's just opinion of course.

I missed this-- oops. I have only playtested the pathfinder cleric once and found the powers a bit nerfed, but mostly not as fun. I feel I need to try it out a bit more.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Majuba wrote:
What is wrong is that he completely ignores that you get the powers and spells of BOTH Domains in Pathfinder, where you only got a single domain spell per level from EITHER domain in 3.5. Clerics have not been nerfed in this way.

I didn't ignore that (and couldn't have mislead anyone who has the Beta; we all know that clerics get both domain powers). I focused only on the effects of one domain. There was no reason to mention the second. And even if I did, a few extra spells gained at levels behind (sometimes far behind) when they would have been gained in 3.X doesn't do much to make the character improved.

Majuba wrote:
For flavor? There seem to be some unfortunate gaps in specific spells. But the 1st and 8th level domain powers offer SO much more flavor than any spell (or really domain power) did in 3.5. That's just opinion of course.

Can you explain how that's true? Using my example of the plant domain, how does being able to harden your fist like wood give more flavor to a cleric than allowing him to study Nature? Perhaps if it were a militant nature deity I could see your point, or even the Aggressive Nature domain, but... can you imagine how inappropriate it would be for some pastoral cleric of a god of harvest to have Wooden Fist?


IconoclasticScream wrote:
Can you explain how that's true? Using my example of the plant domain, how does being able to harden your fist like wood give more flavor to a cleric than allowing him to study Nature? Perhaps if it were a militant nature deity I could see your point, or even the Aggressive Nature domain, but... can you imagine how inappropriate it would be for some pastoral cleric of a god of harvest to have Wood Fist?

I don't like the Wooden Fist ability, personally. But you can still study nature, if you want; you just don't get a +3 bonus any longer.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
hogarth wrote:
But you can still study nature, if you want; you just don't get a +3 bonus any longer.

Where'd the +3 come from?


You can argue that a "pastoral god of X" wouldn't need many of the cleric abilities. The fact though is that most adventuring clerics, are.. adventuring clerics. Even gods of nature need to preserve nature- sometimes by taking up fist and shield, hardening the heart, and goin a head'bustin.

My point isn't so much that I care one way or another about wooden fist- as it is that the flavor can go either way. Just because you study plants and worship nature doesn't mean it isn't flavorful for you to be able to help Nature thwart off whatever is advancing against it.

As to the changes in general (rather than to this specific domain), every OGL primary spell caster is getting hit with a big, spiked, nerf club. To the head, to the gut, and to the groin. This isn't accidental. It isn't an oversight, or a mistrake on Jason's part. It just happens that the Domains are where Clerics had lots of shinies before, so it's where they are getting hit hardest. And the most obvious.

A comparison of most of their power-house spells, side by side with the SRD will also show minor alterations that for each spell are no big deal, but which lead to a big change in how clerics will be played from now on. For example- they no longer can get a fighter's attack bonus. This is a very big deal.

Clerics have received arguably the single biggest boost in Alpha/Beta in the form of the channeling/healing. It only makes sense that they'd not only get a kick in the pants from 3.5 but also to help offset the new boost they've received. If you want to bring back the old Domains, you need to come up with another suitably powerful thing that they can nerf to offset it, otherwise you are changing the big 3 into the big 1- the cleric.

-S


IconoclasticScream wrote:
hogarth wrote:
But you can still study nature, if you want; you just don't get a +3 bonus any longer.
Where'd the +3 come from?

A +3 bonus for it being a class skill. The only difference between a class skill and a non-class skill is a +3 bonus (and maybe some stuff to do with prestige classes).

I shouldn't have used the words "any longer"; that was just confusing.


The absence of several domain-only spells from the PFRPG cleric list is my main complaint with the changes Pathfinder has made. I'm a huge fan of the game otherwise. I applaud the ability of the cleric to access spells/spell-like abilities from both his domains at once - big improvement there - but it's a shame that several spells unique to numerous domains have been lost.

If anyone is interested, I made a list of all domain-only spells that were avaialable to clerics under 3.5 that are no longer available under Pathfinder. I posted it a couple of months back. It's accurate up to the Alpha 3 release and I can post it again here if folks would like to see it.

For my own games, I'm just going to add those spells back into the spell-list of clerics who take the relevant domains. A few extra spells here and there won't break the game - it's no different to allowing a cleric access to extra spells from Complete Divine, Spell Compendium or whatever. I'd like to see the problem fixed in PFRPG core rules, but am happy to house-rule it if not...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
hogarth wrote:

A +3 bonus for it being a class skill. The only difference between a class skill and a non-class skill is a +3 bonus (and maybe some stuff to do with prestige classes).

I shouldn't have used the words "any longer"; that was just confusing.

I must have read the description of the Plant domain in the PHB ten times looking for the +3 bonus. :)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Selgard wrote:
Clerics have received arguably the single biggest boost in Alpha/Beta in the form of the channeling/healing. It only makes sense that they'd not only get a kick in the pants from 3.5 but also to help offset the new boost they've received. If you want to bring back the old Domains, you need to come up with another suitably powerful thing that they can nerf to offset it, otherwise you are changing the big 3 into the big 1- the cleric.

Who really benefits from the cleric's new ability to Channel Energy? It's not the cleric- it's the rest of the party. The cleric could always heal himself with no effort. He'd have to run around the battlefield doing healing one person at a time for everyone else. If you were waiting for that healing, you had to hope the cleric got to you in time. In the meantime, all of the spells the cleric prayed for that he thought would the party are being blown to save everyone else. Now, though, the rest of the cleric's party can get hit points back en masse. Despite how great Channel Energy works mechanically, it still subjugates the cleric to a non-combat role for some, if not most, of combat, and that sucks if you want to play a cleric who likes to get his hands dirty. At least now the cleric still gets to use that Augury spell he would have had to burn healing the wizard because he got hit by a strong wind.

And to point out what other people have said, the domains didn't make the cleric so powerful (something I, like others, don't necessarily agree with anyway). The cleric's spells did. If anything, those need to be changed a bit, but the Domains were fine as they were.


There is lots of good discussion going on in this thread. I am actually learning from it. What I want to interject is--flavor. The cleric's domain powers should all be diety-specific and unique to that particular diety. Two gods with the war domain will still see war in different ways, and so provide their clerics with different benefits.
There should be some general abilities gained from the domain that are appropriate, but a spell that no other god bestows is where the connection really shows.
If necessary, those spells or abilities can be inserted where the missing 3.5 factors were taken out with no replacement.
Lastly, I think some of the cleric's buffs should be reduced in effectiveness unless used when fighting the recognized enemies of the cleric's diety--more connection.


Red Death:

Spoiler:

The Red Death wrote:


toyrobots wrote:


Very early in the life cycle of D&D 3 my group decided that defaulting to Cure/Cause was useful but sort of lame. We altered the rule so that Clerics could default to either of their domain spells instead, which left clerics with the Healing domain functioning as expected, but all the other Domains became incredibly atmospheric. It was my all-time favorite house rule, and it doesn't carry over to Pathfinder Domains at all.

My advice, however, is to print out the domains from the SRD, and just insert those pages into your Pathfinder Beta. They're still there, and they still work. So use them!

I agree. I'd do the same. Clerics are powerful to offset their passive role -healer/buffer/defender- in the group. That should be preserved.

By the way. Your houserule rocks. Seriously. I need to implement this!

We made the choice in 2001 and never looked back. It makes Healing one of the best domains (obviously), and it's really evocative for other types of characters... I remember my dwarven cleric of Moradin could default to Stoneshape, it was great. If you do this though, you must drop the bonus domain spell.

BTW, is your handle derived from the Mercykillers of Planescape?

Majuba wrote:

To comment on the Original Post:

His analysis is completely correct, and utterly wrong. And unintentionally misleading.

His careful analysis shows that the Plant Domain in 3.5 could easily be argued to be better than the Plant Domain in Pathfinder. This is quite correct.

What is wrong is that he completely ignores that you get the powers and spells of BOTH Domains in Pathfinder, where you only got a single domain spell per level from EITHER domain in 3.5. Clerics have not been nerfed in this way.

For flavor? There seem to be some unfortunate gaps in specific spells. But the 1st and 8th level domain powers offer SO much more flavor than any spell (or really domain power) did in 3.5. That's just opinion of course.

This is an incisive interpretation of the issue, I just wish it was a little less harsh. The OP has had his character changed by the rules, something no one likes to happen... so he started a thread to discuss the reasons. You had a better understanding of the current rule, but there's no reason to phrase it as an attack. Thank you for your explanation.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
orcface999 wrote:

There is lots of good discussion going on in this thread. I am actually learning from it. What I want to interject is--flavor. The cleric's domain powers should all be diety-specific and unique to that particular diety. Two gods with the war domain will still see war in different ways, and so provide their clerics with different benefits.

There should be some general abilities gained from the domain that are appropriate, but a spell that no other god bestows is where the connection really shows.
If necessary, those spells or abilities can be inserted where the missing 3.5 factors were taken out with no replacement.
Lastly, I think some of the cleric's buffs should be reduced in effectiveness unless used when fighting the recognized enemies of the cleric's diety--more connection.

Maybe one of the things we should explore is having a choice in what domain power comes with a domain. The question of bonus spells aside, maybe there needs to be a little more possibility in what a deity grants as a power to her subjects, in reflection of what that god is worried about. Just as wizards now have the choice to take a familiar or bond with an item, to keep with the Plant domain example, to reflect differences in concerns of a deity, maybe the cleric can choose at first level to take the Wooden fist (for the "angry" nature deity) or go with the command plants/Knowledge (nature) (for the "peaceful" deity).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
toyrobots wrote:
This is an incisive interpretation of the issue, I just wish it was a little less harsh. The OP has had his character changed by the rules, something no one likes to happen... so he started a thread to discuss the reasons. You had a better understanding of the current rule, but there's no reason to phrase it as an attack.

Like I said to Majuba earlier, I know how the rule works in Beta. Discussing a second domain power wasn't germane to my point. I didn't take it as an attack, per se.


Which ever path is taken in release it must have at-will abilities that make the cleric viable every day, every hour. I hate Vancian.


neceros wrote:
Which ever path is taken in release it must have at-will abilities that make the cleric viable every day, every hour. I hate Vancian.

Lots of people do. I do.

But I still don't think Pathfinder can abolish prepared spells altogether and say they've met their design goals.

I just hope for a non-Vancian sidebar, and I would like it to be playtested.

Dark Archive

orcface999 wrote:
There is lots of good discussion going on in this thread. I am actually learning from it. What I want to interject is--flavor. The cleric's domain powers should all be diety-specific and unique to that particular diety. Two gods with the war domain will still see war in different ways, and so provide their clerics with different benefits.

Additionally (or alternately), one could also customize Domains the way Relics & Rituals did, by offering *two* spell options per level, with the Cleric being required to pick one of them when he gained access to that spell level as his 'Domain option' for that Domain.

This would be most useful for a Cleric with the Air & Water Domains (who has only Obscuring Mist as a 1st level choice), or the Chaos & Destruction Domains (who has only Shatter as a 2nd level choice) or the Strength & War Domains (who has only Magic Vestment as a 3rd level choice).

Having two Domain power options as well sounds like a great idea for customization. Does every Cleric with the Fire Domain need to have the power to Command Fire creatures and Turn Water creatures, or could they have the choice of taking a Fire Resistance 5 and +5 to Fort saves vs. extreme heat instead?

One thing I'd like to see is the powers more standardized. Some Domain powers are a Feat. Others are some power usable once per day. Others are level-based abilities that stop advancing if you PrC out of Cleric. I'd rather it was standardized in some way. Instead of Death, Destruction, Luck, Protection or Strength giving one big effect per day at high level, perhaps a number of weaker effects per day would be more useful. Or at least as an option. Some people might prefer the big 1/day +20 damage Smites and such as an 'oh crap!' last-ditch all-out-attack.

Dark Archive

toyrobots wrote:

But I still don't think Pathfinder can abolish prepared spells altogether and say they've met their design goals.

I just hope for a non-Vancian sidebar, and I would like it to be playtested.

I'd like for prepared and spontaneous spellcasting to just be options that *any* spellcaster can choose at first level. Instead of having seperate classes (Wizard - Sorcerer, Cleric - Favored Soul), the character would choose at 1st level what 'spellcasting style' they were going to pursue, prepared or spontaneous, and from them on would either cast from a potentially infinite number of spells prepared daily from those they've recorded in a spellbook (prayerbook, mindcrystal, whatever) a limited number of times a day *or* have a much smaller selection of 'spells known' and be able to cast them more times a day with the flexibility of using spell slots to cast any of their 'spell known.'

IMO, Spontaneous and Prepared casting are already balanced. The levels don't need to be staggered (as they are with the Sorcerer, currently getting spells a level behind the Wizard), nor does the Spontaneous caster need to be punished with a lack of other class features (such as the Wizards bonus feats). The Prepared caster has less castings per day, and cannot cast spells they haven't prepared, while the Spontaneous caster has a *massively* smaller number of spells known, but can cast them flexibly and somewhat more often.

This should apply to all casting classes. Some Druids might prepare their spells and have access (potentially) to the entire Druid spell list. Others might have a smaller selection of 'spells known,' but be able to cast a few more spells per day, and choose among their spells known freely. Some Bards might be educated nobleman, carrying a sheaf of papers from their long-ago tutoring that they use to prepare their spells. Others might be dragon-blooded spontaneous casters. Same with Paladins, Rangers, Clerics, Wizards, Assassins, Blackguards, etc. Some would have internalized spontaneous casting ability, while some of them study or pray every morning, and have a much wider selection of 'spells known' (potentially *all* spells available to their class!), but must 'prepare' specific spells for the day's events.

This would, as an unintended side-effect, reduce the flexibility of Clerics and Druids, as both would lose the free access to their entire spell list, and be given a choice between a small selection of known spells cast flexibly or a much larger spell list that must be prepared in advance.


Majuba wrote:
Lots of things

Thanks mate, I really forgot about these. I knew I did forget something but I could not remember what.

Still, they should have picked more distinct spells and powers.

Liberty's Edge

The Red Death wrote:
I agree. I'd do the same. Clerics are powerful to offset their passive role -healer/buffer/defender- in the group. That should be preserved.

NO WAY!

I use a Cleric right now and as second option she buff and heal, she is fighter and diplomat first. And i like her like that...
If you prefer to play healer/buffer/deffender.. fine... I like to play a cleric of war that is that a Cleric for War.

I still need to test the domains to its full extent, ok some of the domains lost a lot when losing the domain power (class skills, modified turn undead (just remember... it became turn plan, you have not turn undead anymore)) other won things (ok now i don't need to have the war domain to be proficient with the longsword... being cleric of Iomedae gave this to me already)

the possitive channel is useful and let me use my spells at my discretion (1st level Shield of Faith for me, Bless for everyone)... but well considering my group is full of spellcasters and lacking fighters... (Paladin, Cleric, Wizard (necromancer), sorcerer, druid, rogue (x2), bard) we are alñready lacking strenght in the front.

Also the cleric was the more unbalanced class of all (and I play a cleric)

decent hp, great armor, spells, just a regular BaB, pretty decent saves, domains, turn undead (now mixed with feats you can use it for lots of things and now also for healing around you!)

until i don't try in play how well or bad the domains i will not complain a lot... bonus spells were nice? definitively, but it was only one, either one domain or the other, your choice.

I played long with a cleric of the sun and war (justice, that is why i chose Iomedae) and i mostly sued the ones in war (magic weapon, magic vestment, etc).

If you expect the cleric to just be healer/buffer/defender (ok deffender is more or less ok) you are just giving the class little options... and at least me as player i am not going to complay (yes the poeple with who i played complained at first, but since my cleric was better fighter than the paladin... they didn't complained for long)

Werecorpse wrote:

I always have considered clerics to be the most powerful class in 3.5 (rivalled only by the barbarian) but given the clerics role as a party support character I think this is adequate compensation if a player is playing co-operatively. Even with this power most groups I play with pick other classes before the cleric.

Pathfinder has given every other base class a power boost- but has reduced the power of clerics. I just think the new domain stuff is a bit dull.

all players chose other class instead of cleric because the cleric is always seen as the band-aid class...

that is why every cleric i do.. is no band-aid box :P played 3, one fighter for justice, other traveler, drunk, and roguish all his demeanor... and mixed iwth ranger grim hunter of the dead... positive energy FTW... now i am repeating the first formula with the plan of combat commander :D


Just use the Magic Point system from Unearthed Arcana. We've been using it in our game, and it works like a charm. Further power ups casters though, you have been warned.

As for the cleric, he is now where he should have been. Decent melee fighter (but not on par with the real melee classes, or even with the rogue, which does not have spells), with lots of healing power and some very nice spells which enable him to empower the party, as well as himself. He also dabbles in summoning and damage dealing, but that is not his forte, and it shouldn't be.

The domains as they were gave too much power to a class that really didn't need more of it to begin with. I'd really like to find anybody who can keep a straight face while saying "Clerics in 3.5 were underpowered".

Liberty's Edge

Estrosiath wrote:
The domains as they were gave too much power to a class that really didn't need more of it to begin with. I'd really like to find anybody who can keep a straight face while saying "Clerics in 3.5 were underpowered".

I CAN!!

but i am a cinical pokerface :D

Dark Archive

LogicNinja wrote:

Oh, no! The cleric... got nerfed? On of the Big Three classes from 3.5? A tiny bit weaker?

You poor *dear*. It's OK, you can cry. Just let it all out.

"They were powerful in the original version of the rules" doesn't really seem like a valid answer to such a polite and well-thought out argument for the rules in their present state.

Liberty's Edge

hogarth wrote:
LogicNinja wrote:


At level 7, the cleric gets Divine Power, which gives him full BAB and a bigger enhancement bonus to strength than the Fighter's got from an item.
At level 9, he casts Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor, getting +3 to hit/damage on top of Divine Power.
Note that these Divine Power has been changed. It now provides a luck bonus to attacks (a la Divine Favor) and gives an extra attack (as per Haste) rather than increasing BAB.

i suppose i will have just to convince my DM to keep using the 3.0 spells like we used already (that is why i didn't noticed the changes)

we (all the spellcasters and me) hate the donwgraded with water spells of 3.5 that are useful just for encounters...

we liked the spells that could be useful all the daylong and let you do other things aside of combat (like Fox cunning and eagle explendor)


LogicNinja wrote:


At level 7, the cleric gets Divine Power, which gives him full BAB and a bigger enhancement bonus to strength than the Fighter's got from an item.
At level 9, he casts Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor, getting +3 to hit/damage on top of Divine Power.

Oh, how do I wish people actually READ the spells they are talking about! Divine Power has been changed. No more full BAB for the cleric. And now divine Favor and Divine power both provide LUCK bonuses, so they don't stack anymore. Sigh.

Dark Archive

Estrosiath wrote:
LogicNinja wrote:


At level 7, the cleric gets Divine Power, which gives him full BAB and a bigger enhancement bonus to strength than the Fighter's got from an item.
At level 9, he casts Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor, getting +3 to hit/damage on top of Divine Power.
Oh, how do I wish people actually READ the spells they are talking about! Divine Power has been changed. No more full BAB for the cleric. And now divine Favor and Divine power both provide LUCK bonuses, so they don't stack anymore. Sigh.

Yes, but they were overpowered once, and so they must be poonished forever, and those who play them must be MOCKED.

Mocked, I tell you!


I would hardly call reining in their rampant divinity complex mocking them. Now they are in line with other classes. ;)


I for one am a big fan of the new domains, tjhey mean something to me now. They're more evoctaive and characterful than just a few extra spells, and I find, vastly more individual, which I like, I prefer to have clerics seem and play differently depending on diety. Which, I find, the new changes support.


vagrant-poet wrote:
I for one am a big fan of the new domains, tjhey mean something to me now. They're more evoctaive and characterful than just a few extra spells, and I find, vastly more individual, which I like, I prefer to have clerics seem and play differently depending on diety. Which, I find, the new changes support.

Second!

Liberty's Edge

vagrant-poet wrote:
I for one am a big fan of the new domains, tjhey mean something to me now. They're more evoctaive and characterful than just a few extra spells, and I find, vastly more individual, which I like, I prefer to have clerics seem and play differently depending on diety. Which, I find, the new changes support.

I am with the poet

but there is some merit in what someone else said... different options for powers... the posibility to choice what do you want to enhance, mind you, not all, but a few of the powers per domain could get their threatment...


IconoclasticScream:

The cleric benefits directly. PC's were getting healed anyway. Wands, spells, whatnot. PC's *had* healing. This isn't a group buff, it's a cleric buff. And it was meant to be. Clerics received channeled healing to allow them to use their spells for things other than healing. That is the true buff of it. It wasn't a trade off- it was a direct upgrade. *and* Clerics can still convert into healing spells.

In-combat healing isn't just spells anymore, they can channel. This lets them use their spells for buffs. Some for them selves, some for others. That is the buff to them- not that they can heal more, but that healing more lets them use their spells for other things. And it's a *huge* buff.

-S


Werecorpse wrote:


I didn't mean to dis the CharOp boards- I just had an impression (based on comments, but no visits) they were about how to min/max.

BTW would you consider the design you have presented to be 'optimization' or 'broken power build'?

I agree the cleric has got a massive upside. I have had problems with powerful melee based clerics builds (including archers) - but I have found that in most cases (not if the character has followed the melee design path)the spell power up lasts one combat so if you have a bunch of encounters it allows the cleric to step up once but mainatin its usual less dominant role at other times.

Fundamentally I dont see how making domain abilities (not really the stuff that you quoted as 'Danger Will Robinson' stuff)lamer is an appropriate balance element. If there is a problem with divine power combos then fix that (I havent playtested pathfinders fix of it but I quite like it - I have usually found most overpower problems come down to stacking issues- get rid of these and the spell does only what it should)

The design I have presented is "optimization"--just barely, since it consists of casting a couple of likely thematically-appropriate core spells from the cleric list for the most part. If using a couple of spells the way they were meant to be used is a broken power build, the term has lost all meaning.

A "broken power build" for the cleric would make use of Extra Turning, the Nightstick item, and Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell) to keep its buffs up 24/7. On top of that, it would abuse the Greater Consumptive Field spell to get massive bonuses to Strength and Caster Level. It would also make use of the Bead of Karma item from the Strand of Prayer Beads, combined with the orange ioun stone, Divine Spell Power feat, and consumptive field spell to instantly splatter many opponents with Holy Word/Dictum.

You're right that laming up the domain abilities won't address the fundamental issues with the Cleric class (which consist of its role infringement/multi-role abilities, its swiss-army-knife ability to prepare any spell known ever published for the class given a day's notice, and the way healing spells fundamentally work in 3.x).

Shadowdweller: No, you're right. This domain change doesn't really address the fundamental problems with the Cleric class. The Divine Power change does a little, but only for a group of levels, and it still only addresses one of them.

Frankly, if clerics *weren't* the powerhouses they are, I'd suggest giving each domain a combat and a noncombat ability (except for War, I guess).

Estrosiath: You wish people would read the spells? I wish people would read the posts. I was explaining why clerics were considered overpowered in 3.x. In Pathfinder, they take a bit longer to blossom, but don't really wind up being much worse, if at all.


My vote: the Cleric is still probably one of the best classes in the game.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Selgard wrote:

The cleric benefits directly. PC's were getting healed anyway. Wands, spells, whatnot. PC's *had* healing. This isn't a group buff, it's a cleric buff. And it was meant to be. Clerics received channeled healing to allow them to use their spells for things other than healing. That is the true buff of it. It wasn't a trade off- it was a direct upgrade. *and* Clerics can still convert into healing spells.

In-combat healing isn't just spells anymore, they can channel. This lets them use their spells for buffs. Some for them selves, some for others. That is the buff to them- not that they can heal more, but that healing more lets them use their spells for other things. And it's a *huge* buff.

What you're doing is defining the cleric and its playability by what spells he's capable of casting and his ability to channel energy. But when every clerical spell is available to every cleric (alignment restrictions not withstanding), and channeling energy available to all clerics (again, alignment being the only point of variation), they do nothing to help create a character. That leaves the options for a player to augment and customize (and in the process to add flavor to) his character to skills (which the cleric gets few points to work with), feats (and not even the fighter is forced to rely solely on feats for this purpose anymore), and his domain powers. Which brings me back to the point of my original post that I want to stay on here- the domain skills as presented in the Beta are not sufficient to help create a fully fleshed out character that comes with incentives to advance to twentieth level, and that was the stated goal of creating Pathfinder in the first place.


I love how the new Domains work. Could the be tweaked and made better? Sure.

But even as they are now they are leaps and bounds better in my opinion than the previous domains. The old domains spell list were completely unbalanced between each other. I could take the fire domain and gain some very nice spells normally not availible to clerics. Or I can take the healing domain and get...um all the normaly cure spells that I mostlikely can already cast spontaneously. Not to mention the domain powers were in noway balanced either. Healing gave what? +1 Hitpoint to the amount healed most healing spells. The only spell that really benefited more than that was Heal and then only until you hit 15th level and maxed out its healing. While the war domain gave Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapons Focus (two feats) as its domain power. Balanced? Not hardly.

I like the idea of cleric gains special powers (like the 1st and 8th level powers) rather than just extra spells added to their spell lists. The powers really add flavor. I never wanted to play a Fire Priest before until I read that I could play a cleric that could burn with a wave of his hand. This little ability (Fire bolt) screams servant of a FIRE GOD for more than a list of extra spells added to my spell list. Could the new Domain powers use some tweaking. YES! Definately. Just because the 1st (or 3rd) draft of the fix isnt perfect doesnt me we should scrap it and go back to a system that was no more perfect in a lot of ways worse.


Kalyth wrote:


But even as they are now they are leaps and bounds better in my opinion than the previous domains. The old domains spell list were completely unbalanced between each other. I could take the fire domain and gain some very nice spells normally not availible to clerics. Or I can take the healing domain and get...um all the normaly cure spells that I mostlikely can already cast spontaneously. Not to mention the domain powers were in noway balanced either. Healing gave what? +1 Hitpoint to the amount healed most healing spells. The only spell that really benefited more than that was Heal and then only until you hit 15th level and maxed out its healing. While the war domain gave Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapons Focus (two feats) as its domain power. Balanced? Not hardly.

You picked bad examples.

Any cleric *will* be casting at least one cure spell of every or almost every level, for a long time. A cleric with the Healing domain does so first out of his domain slot, rather than converting existing spells. Therefore, what the healing domain REALLY gives is the best Cleric spell of each level already on the Cleric list.

The Fire domain gives spells that, well, kinda suck. The War domain gives two feats... neither of which are very good (MWP and Weapon Focus are very low-tier feats, as nice as getting them for free is).

The balance between your examples is a lot closer than you think.

A better example would be to compare, say, the Pride domain (reroll the first 1 on every single saving throw) or the Time domain (get Improved Initiative) to, say, the Good domain.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Kalyth wrote:

I like the idea of cleric gains special powers (like the 1st and 8th level powers) rather than just extra spells added to their spell lists. The powers really add flavor. I never wanted to play a Fire Priest before until I read that I could play a cleric that could burn with a wave of his hand. This little ability (Fire bolt) screams servant of a FIRE GOD for more than a list of extra spells added to my spell list. Could the new Domain powers use some tweaking. YES! Definately. Just because the 1st (or 3rd) draft of the fix isnt perfect doesnt me we should scrap it and go back to a system that was no more perfect in a lot of ways worse.

The more discourse on this that happens, the more I'm thinking that rather than a straight return to the old Domains there needs to be a synthesis of the two.

1) Set levels (first, twentieth, and one or two in-between) at which per-day or constant abilities are granted.

2) An option of two abilities at those level from which the player can choose, reflecting different personalities or concerns of deities with the same domain.

3) Bonus spells granted (per each spell level or at X number of levels, which could be variable) that are special somehow, not just spells normally available to the cleric.

So the new Plant domain might look like this:

Granted Powers (when given a choice, choose between A or B):

Level 1- A) Rebuke or command plant life/Add Knowledge (nature) to class skills B) Wooden fist

Level 5- A) Cleric can always Speak with Plants as if under the effect of that spell B) Cleric can always Move Without Trace through and environment rich with flora

Level 8- Bramble Armor

Level 20- Plant Walk- cleric can "teleport" between two locations as long as he can "walk" through a Medium or larger piece of vegetation (such as a tree). There is no limit on distance, and can be used to transcend planes, but cleric must be familiar with the region he wishes to appear in.

Or something like this. And of course there's the What To Do With Bonus Spells issue, but my girlfriend needs help in the kitchen, and she's been kind enough to let me type up my insanity, so it's time to give her a hand.


LogicNinja wrote:
Any cleric *will* be casting at least one cure spell of every or almost every level, for a long time. A cleric with the Healing domain does so first out of his domain slot, rather than converting existing spells. Therefore, what the healing domain REALLY gives is the best Cleric spell of each level already on the Cleric list.

Another way of looking at it is that the healing domain gives you another spell slot, only you don't get to choose whether or not to cast it spontaneously as a healing spell. Let's put it this way:

Cleric A has the healing domain, Cleric B has something else. Each can cast the same number of 3rd level spells (let's say 4+1).

So, at the beginning of the day, Cleric A has 4 spells off the cleric spell list and a heal, for a total of 5 possible spell options, all from the Cleric list. Cleric B, on the other hand, has six possible spell options: 4 from his spell slots, one from his domain slot, and the potential to cast any of the first four as a heal. Cleric A would have to wait for Cleric B to cast a spell before he's on par with him again as far as spell choice goes. He can heal one spellsworth more in a day, but that's it.

The cleric who has healing as a domain has gimped himself. He has traded choice for lack of choice, a clear downgrade.


BlaineTog wrote:

Another way of looking at it is that the healing domain gives you another spell slot, only you don't get to choose whether or not to cast it spontaneously as a healing spell. Let's put it this way:

Cleric A has the healing domain, Cleric B has something else. Each can cast the same number of 3rd level spells (let's say 4+1).

So, at the beginning of the day, Cleric A has 4 spells off the cleric spell list and a heal, for a total of 5 possible spell options, all from the Cleric list. Cleric B, on the other hand, has six possible spell options: 4 from his spell slots, one from his domain slot, and the potential to cast any of the first four as a heal. Cleric A would have to wait for Cleric B to cast a spell before he's on par with him again as far as spell choice goes. He can heal one spellsworth more in a day, but that's it.

The cleric who has healing as a domain has gimped himself. He has traded choice for lack of choice, a clear downgrade.

That's not really how it works out. A cleric prepares spells because he wants to cast them. Both clerics are going to cast healing spells. The one without the Healing Domain might have to give up Prayer or Spiritual Weapon or Divine Power or something: the one with the Healing domain won't.

Both Cleric A and Cleric B have a fixed domain spell slot. The difference is, the Healing domain's spell is one the cleric is almost guaranteed to use, while, say, the Fire domain spell might well suck and the cleric isn't guaranteed to use it or want it.

The clerics are both going to be casting a healing spell anyway. After they do, Cleric B has given up a normal spell, possibly one he wanted to cast later; Cleric A has given up a domain spell. Unless the domain spell is better than any spell the cleric could prepare in his normal spell slots, the advantage goes to Healing Domain Guy.
On the upside for Cleric B, he's got versatility in that he can cast a spell (once per day per spell level) that Healing Domain guy can't. Assuming the spells in question don't suck, that's called "balance", a little versatility vs. straight-up cleric casting power.


(Whoops, posted in the wrong place. If there are mods who delete stuff, please delete this.)


Ah, nothing sharpens the mind like the cut and thrust of intellectual debate!

OK, problems with being the cleric (and druid):

1) being party healer sucks. It means when the action gets going, you have to prop up everybody else, and you don't get to DO anything.

2) they can be hard to get your head around RP wise. I have seen very few clerics well played, I must concede. I don't often play them myself for this reason, I don't like my play straight-jacketed into following one specific set of ethics. And yet, despite the fact that they should be focussed upon their deity, they have remarkably similar spell lists.

Which leads to the oft-repeated phrase: "Who's going to play the cleric?" Which leads to awkward silences and foot-shuffling.

The problems with the cleric (and druid):

1) To do their healing they need full spell-progression, and this gives them huge options on doing things OTHER than healing.

2) They get a lot more besides that arcane spell-casters don't get: armour, better BAB, better saves, better hit-dice, in fact better everything. In the druids case they lose the armour but gain wildshape.

3) If you take a cleric or druid with the right spell choices you can pretty much make any other member of the party redundant.

How do you make the cleric more appealing to play and yet less open to abuse?


  • Using channelling for healing was a good call, it means that healing can be done faster giving the cleric more time to do other stuff.

  • Scrap the 1 domain spell per spell level available, instead add MORE spells to the domain spells and remove them from the main cleric list - if the cleric takes the domain, he gains access to the spells. Make more of the clerics skills and abilities domain-dependent too. Clerics of a peaceable god will be great at healing, crap at fighting. Clerics of a war-god will be much better in battle. Clerics of a god of knowledge will have more skill points etc.

  • Reduce the clerics base abilities accordingly: your basic cleric should have few weapon proficiencies, few skills, and proficiency with just light armour, say. Then if you want a combat cleric you can get one but at the expense of not being able to do much else.

Interestingly, the two cleric/druid spontaneous alternatives, the Favoured Soul and the Spirit Shaman, are much better balanced than the cleric and druid are. The favoured soul is as tough or tougher in combat as the cleric but their restricted spell list cuts their power and makes them focus more on one or two themes. The spirit shaman is a better spell-slinger than the druid, but is otherwise only truly effective against incorporeal creatures.

I do like the thrust of the way that Paizo treats the spell-casters in other ways - that they have an ability they can use at will if the spells run out makes so much sense and adds to playability, but I can't see them getting rid of Vancian magic. If you want to do that, go for psionics-only and ignore the 'science' flavour that tends to cling to it; it's just magic by another paradigm (and actually the Ardent is an example of how you could restructure the cleric, gaining all their spells from Mantles rather than from a broad list).

Dark Archive

Dabbler wrote:
Interestingly, the two cleric/druid spontaneous alternatives, the Favoured Soul and the Spirit Shaman, are much better balanced than the cleric and druid are. The favoured soul is as tough or tougher in combat as the cleric but their restricted spell list cuts their power and makes them focus more on one or two themes.

Yeah, if Clerics and Druids were forced to use one of the two methods that arcane casters used, either Spontaneous casting from a very small list of Spells Known, or Prepared casting from a prayerbook of spells acquired through class leveling and / or cash expenditures, I think they would be a little less crazy flexible. Every book that adds a new Sor/Wiz spell represents a painful choice for a Sorcerer or a Wizard (on as a Spell Known, from a small list, the other from a small selection of spells that can be prepared in a given day). Every new Cleric / Druid spell is available to *any* Cleric or Druid, barring the DM saying, 'NO!'

Liberty's Edge

Set wrote:
Yeah, if Clerics and Druids were forced to use one of the two methods that arcane casters used, either Spontaneous casting from a very small list of Spells Known, or Prepared casting from a prayerbook of spells acquired through class leveling and / or cash expenditures, I think they would be a little less crazy flexible. Every book that adds a new Sor/Wiz spell represents a painful choice for a Sorcerer or a Wizard (on as a Spell Known, from a small list, the other from a small selection of spells that can be prepared in a given day). Every new Cleric / Druid spell is available to *any* Cleric or Druid, barring the DM saying, 'NO!'

Wizards can know every every spell on the list if they want (and can afford it)

that is why if someday i do an Arcane Caster it will be the Wizard, i want to be able to create my own spells, to learn until i have everything, research for new things...

why i never do an Arcane spellcaster? i suck at playing them... I have a couple of friends that rock, a few that are decent... i just suck 100%

well i really do prefer Rogues & Clerics

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Dabbler wrote:
Make more of the clerics skills and abilities domain-dependent too. Clerics of a peaceable god will be great at healing, crap at fighting. Clerics of a war-god will be much better in battle. Clerics of a god of knowledge will have more skill points etc.

I'd be for this. It would require a bit of work, but there's the better part of a year to do it.

Dabbler wrote:
Scrap the 1 domain spell per spell level available, instead add MORE spells to the domain spells and remove them from the main cleric list - if the cleric takes the domain, he gains access to the spells.

This reminds me of the Initiate feats first detailed in _Player's Guide to Faerun_. A cleric could take the feat at various levels (some could be taken at first, some at third, some not until much higher levels depending on the power of the benefits. Once taken, the cleric would gain a benefit tied intimately to the deity it corresponds to (the Initiate of Nature feat would allow the cleric to rebuke or command animals and plants) as well as give them access to a limited number of spells available only to a small handful of gods at most (usually the spells were unique to one deity).

This wouldn't be "Core", but I think it would be a great asset to players who like clerics and other divine agents.


LogicNinja wrote:


A better example would be to compare, say, the Pride domain (reroll the first 1 on every single saving throw) or the Time domain (get Improved Initiative) to, say, the Good domain.

When you're making comments, can you be clear on whether you're talking about the 3.5 version of rules or the Pathfinder version? It's hard to comment on what you're saying when I don't know which version you're talking about. For instance, the 3.5 Good domain power is terrible, but the Pathfinder Good domain power is fairly powerful (similar to the spell Moment of Prescience usable multiple times per day).

Similarly, I'm not sure if you'd be willing to defend the Pathfinder Healing domain, which only gives CLW and Mass CLW as healing spells (and Mass Heal at level 20):

Spoiler:
Healing Domain

Caster
Level Ability
1st Rebuke Death (Su): You can touch a creature as a
standard action, healing it of 1d4 points of damage
plus 1 for every two caster levels you possess. You
can only use this ability on a creature that is below
0 hit points. If you touch an undead creature with
this effect, it is shaken for a number of rounds
equal to your caster level.
2nd Cure Light Wounds (Sp): You can cast cure light
wounds 1/day per 2 caster levels you possess.
4th Lesser Restoration (Sp): You can cast lesser restoration
1/day.
8th Healer’s Blessing (Su): You can emit a 30 ft.
aura of healing for a number of rounds per
day equal to your caster level. You and your
allies within this aura gain fast healing equal
to 1/4 your caster level as long as they remain
in range. This fast healing only applies to
damage caused after the aura began. These
rounds do not need to be consecutive.
12th Mass Cure Light Wounds (Sp): You can cast mass
cure light wounds 1/day.
16th Greater Restoration (Sp): You can cast greater
restoration 1/day.
20th Mass Heal (Sp): You can cast mass heal 1/day.


Anyone remember the Specialty priest from 2nd edition?

They all had diety specific granted powers/class abilities and even some deity specific spells.

I always wondered why they didnt make deity specific domains.

The domains only take a paragraph or two to detail and could easily be included with the description of each diety. This would give each god unique clerics tailor specifically to their history/faith/theme.

Alternately each god could have one specific domain and the second would be selected from the general/generic domains.

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