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Hello Paizo people
I love what is going on around here.
I have one nebulous concern, however.
It relates to the "inverted pyramid" business model you seem to have (a appropriate description, as discussed in some online review I read somewhere)-- namely, thus far you have done the opposite of what TSR/WotC did historically.
Whereas they made core rules then (maybe at times grudgingly) made other stuff to drive sales of said core rules, you started with the other stuff (APs, other Adventures, etc) and will, at least in part, use sales of the core rules you are coming out with to direct new focus back to the other stuff.
The genius stroke is really the new scheme of having subscription based supplemental materials! Great idea! It is a continuation, in effect, of the magazine business in a different form.
I am sure most (or all) of this happened because of the unique history of Paizo, the Dungeon/Dragon cancellation, the 4th Ed GSL mis-steps, etc.
I guess my long-winded question is simply this: how long can you keep it up? How many Pathfinder Chronicles and APs and card decks and Adventure Modules can you write before the market is saturated? I fear that it is not sustainable to stick with the ultra-aggressive release schedule you've had thus far.
OR... Is Paizo in effect still a magazine business whose issues are now broken into three or four different lines of physical product (and thus, sustainable forever?), or is there a real danger of reaching a point where you are on the 12th AP and nobody has yet finished playing the 4th AP? And is that such a bad thing?
Comments?
Ideas?
Clarifications?
Several people have mentioned that doing an entire product based on adventure Paths might burn itself out over time. Dungeon did prove that you can continue doing successive adventure paths since they did three of them in as many years (I think). However, since groups usually only get together two to three times a month, and it can take several sessions to play one lengthy adventure, there is a danger that focusing on the adventure paths might burn itself out.
The first two adventure paths focused on the adventure path adventures while world building with the articles on locations, gods, and other ins and outs of Golarion. Obviously building up Golarion is important because it builds the framework for all sorts of adventures and campaign setting material. The idea was to give the new lineup of products a solid and focused launch.
With the Second Darkness, we see the main adventure in the book still taking up half the book, but the setting material seems to have been slightly reduced in favor of a second adventure. My guess is that eventually we'll see a new format emerge where the adventure path is one of three adventures in the book, which will exist alongside some short articles that focus on Golarion and the adventures, and of course the bestiary.
The Golarion articles will soon be mostly moved to the Pathfinder Chronicles publication, while the player oriented stuff will make its way to the Pathfinder Companion. Obviously the Chronicles are DM oriented while the Companion is player oriented.
In other words, if this follows the progression I'm predicting, the Pathfinder AP will continue with the adventure paths forever while also being a source for new standalone adventures, just like Dungeon was, while the Chronicles and Companion fill the roles Dragon once did, all the while building up Golarion exclusively, rather than splitting the material between several different campaign worlds.
It's a total win for us because we essentially get our magazines back, but they're kind of the deluxe versions, and they're focused on a single setting.
I can't speak for Paizo, but I don't think over-saturation of AP's is a major problem. Even *Paizo* themselves are behind on the AP's they made for Dungeon, let alone for Pathfinder. Most people can't and won't run every AP.
I've heard described often that a large portion of Dungeon readers simply read the modules as entertainment, and no doubt that remains true for Pathfinder. Plus they can be picked from for other games, or just collected for the "Oh gosh this is too awesome not to play!" AP that comes along.
Myself I have perhaps 50 issues of Dungeon. I've run precisely two of the *adventures*.
Because of the stratospheric quality, I'm now running two of the three Pathfinder AP's out (only about 1/4 through the first). I expect to keep buying them, for potential games in the future, and for the entertainment of them.
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Myself I have perhaps 50 issues of Dungeon. I've run precisely two of the *adventures*.
I have every issue of Dungeon paizo put out, and I've run ONE adventure straight out of the book. It was the one about the spider-infested village, with the arenea. Great stuff.
I read it mostly for inspiration, and to steal statblocks. Same with the APs, which I don't find work with my DMing style, and will probably never actually run. Great to steal from, and plenty of inspiration for my own material.
Creative Director
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I guess my long-winded question is simply this: how long can you keep it up? How many Pathfinder Chronicles and APs and card decks and Adventure Modules can you write before the market is saturated? I fear that it is not sustainable to stick with the ultra-aggressive release schedule you've had thus far.
OR... Is Paizo in effect still a magazine business whose issues are now broken into three or four different lines of physical product (and thus, sustainable forever?), or is there a real danger of reaching a point where you are on the 12th AP and nobody has yet finished playing the 4th AP? And is that such a bad thing?
The model of selling adventures to develop a world and then periodically supporting the adventures with crunch and flavor supplements is actually very close to the way the game was produced during the 1st edition era. Adventures were the main place to go to get new rules, world development, and other content back then. It wasn't until 2nd edition that things started drifting away from adventures and toward the production of Campaign Settings. Then in 3rd edition, things shifted to additional rules.
For a good time, the generally accepted truth in the industry was that adventures don't sell. That's not been the experience I've had working on Dungeon and Pathfinder for the past half-decade, though—adventures DO sell.
As for how long we can keep this up... the answer there is however long folk keep buying Paizo product! Fortunately, things are looking VERY good for us these days. Between Pathfinder and Dungeon, we've put out 5 adventure paths so far, and the numbers on Pathfinder continue to grow rather than shrink. I suspect that the public's appetite for adventures and Adventure Path products is close to insatiable.
Look at other entertainment venues, as an example. Superhero movies, first-person shooters, horror novels, etc.—these things keep coming out year after year without stop, and they're continuing to be successful. People might not be able to play every adventure path we put out... but you can certainly READ all of them (and a large number of RPG customers do just that... they read but never actually use a book... and there's nothing wrong with that!).
In addition... we're building our Adventure Paths so that you CAN play them in any order. When we get to AP #12... the way to look at it is "We have 12 choices for campaign to start!" not "We have to finish the first 11 APs before we start #12."
Of course... who knows what the future could bring? Rest assured, we keep a pretty close eye on how our products are doing and generally react pretty quickly to positive or negative feedback.
who knows what the future could bring? Rest assured, we keep a pretty close eye on how our products are doing and generally react pretty quickly to positive or negative feedback.
Way to go...
ofcourse we know this with the new side quest and the change in the bestiary an fonds.Also i am one of the customers who read the AP for fiction (as I do not DM at the moment)
Keep up up the good work.
Personally, I enjoy reading Pathfinder each month, just as I did Dungeon and Dragon. I haven't run any adventure paths and do not plan to run any in the near future, but I have a subscription nonetheless.
I read primarily for entertainment value and new ideas.
One of the things I've really enjoyed about the Pathfinder line is the situational rules and advice on how to run different scenarios; simple, logical ideas that I can port into my campaign - sin points, respect points, the Harrow Deck bonuses, Logue's chase mechanic, etc.
Finally, Pathfinder and the related books are a fantastic resource for a harried DM. I may not use the AP, but I borrow stated NPCs, chunks of APs, maps, magic, monsters, etc. Having a subscription means I have access to the PDFs too making it very easy to print exactly what I need.
I also love the art. Fantasy art gets my juices flowing and often gives me knew ideas as well. Paizo's stuff has some of the best art around.
As long as the quality remains as high as it is and the APs continue to entertain and inspire, I'm in
The Golarion articles will soon be mostly moved to the Pathfinder Chronicles publication, while the player oriented stuff will make its way to the Pathfinder Companion. Obviously the Chronicles are DM oriented while the Companion is player oriented.
I guess I'm daft. Until you wrote this I hadn't figured out that the Chronicles==DM Resource/ Companion==Player Resource.
In addition... we're building our Adventure Paths so that you CAN play them in any order. When we get to AP #12... the way to look at it is "We have 12 choices for campaign to start!" not "We have to finish the first 11 APs before we start #12."
I was under the impression that you were better off starting an AP at the beginning and running it all the way through. I wish I'd read this before, I would have subscribed to CoCT some time ago. The fact that you don't need to play CoCT to play Second Darkness seems pretty self evident.
As for the original subject... While an individual might get burned out on adventure paths there is plenty of supplemental material coming out in the Chronicles and Companion that is not tied to a specific AP that would keep me interested in subscribing. Also, if I did build up a huge backlog of adventures I couldn't conceive of running maybe I would cancel for a bit but then someone else would be joining. Eventually, I would resubscribe as well.
I guess I'm daft. Until you wrote this I hadn't figured out that the Chronicles==DM Resource/ Companion==Player Resource.
I'm not completely convinced that I'm right about this. Maybe my use of the word "obviously" in my previous post was overstating things a bit. The Pathfinder Gazetteer was made for DMs and players alike, but now that the campaign setting is out, the gazetteer is more useful for players. I'm not positive that the player publication vs. DM publication split has occurred yet, although the foreward in the Second Darkness Pathfinder Companion suggests to me that it is moving in this direction.
But what do I know? Paizo hasn't whispered all of their secrets into my ear.... At least not yet. ;-) And when they start doing that, I have to shut up and stop speculating.
I suspect that the public's appetite for quality adventures and Adventure Path products is close to insatiable.
Fixed that for you. Someone can make crappy APs and I'm willing to bet it there won't be much of an appetite for them.
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In addition... we're building our Adventure Paths so that you CAN play them in any order. When we get to AP #12... the way to look at it is "We have 12 choices for campaign to start!" not "We have to finish the first 11 APs before we start #12."
Of course... who knows what the future could bring?
Some of us would like an official timeline though. :)
Maybe we can shift the OP's question a bit. Do you ever intend to slow down the product schedule?
Maybe August was a watershed month, but I am almost to the point where I can not keep up. And I do not subscribe to the modules (yet). I probably won't subscibe to modules just because it is too much. There comes a point where I just can not appreciate the value due to the time I have.
Maybe I am over generalizing. ALL the subscriptions do not need to be for ALL the customers. Maybe your target customers are just meant to get partial subscriptions. The supersubscribers are Paizo groupies.
I guess my long-winded question is simply this: how long can you keep it up? How many Pathfinder Chronicles and APs and card decks and Adventure Modules can you write before the market is saturated? I fear that it is not sustainable to stick with the ultra-aggressive release schedule you've had thus far.
I think in this business, there is no sustainability. You have it, you sell it, and at some point it does no longer pay enough and you do something else. 3 to 10 years, but then it comes out of fashion again and it no longer pays.
The market is very small and very volatile. I think you really can only plan to introduce your product and then hope it sells reasonably well for one or two years. After that, it's just waiting how long it takes to ride this wave out.
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The model of selling adventures to develop a world and then periodically supporting the adventures with crunch and flavor supplements is actually very close to the way the game was produced during the 1st edition era.I guess my long-winded question is simply this: how long can you keep it up? How many Pathfinder Chronicles and APs and card decks and Adventure Modules can you write before the market is saturated? I fear that it is not sustainable to stick with the ultra-aggressive release schedule you've had thus far.
OR... Is Paizo in effect still a magazine business whose issues are now broken into three or four different lines of physical product (and thus, sustainable forever?), or is there a real danger of reaching a point where you are on the 12th AP and nobody has yet finished playing the 4th AP? And is that such a bad thing?
Interesting question, Brent. And thanks for the response, James.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I was under the impression that you were better off starting an AP at the beginning and running it all the way through. I wish I'd read this before, I would have subscribed to CoCT some time ago. The fact that you don't need to play CoCT to play Second Darkness seems pretty self evident.
The 6-volume paths can be run in any order, but starting a path half-way through or trying to scale the adventures up or down to run them out of order (not to mention figure out how to get the story to work out) would be far too much work for most GMs.
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CEO
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Maybe we can shift the OP's question a bit. Do you ever intend to slow down the product schedule?
August was indeed a watershed month and not one that we want to replicate for a lot of reasons, mostly related to sanity but somewhat related to cash flow.
The base schedule that we are shooting for is:
a) a monthly Adventure Path volume
b) a Pathfinder Chronicles product during most months (about 10 or so a year)
c) alternating Pathfinder modules and Pathfinder Companions each month
d) alternating flip mats and map packs each month
e) a monthly Planet Stories book
f) new item cards about 3 times a year, maybe 4
g) 2 to 3 new Titanic card or board games each year
h) Pathfinder RPG products to be determined
h) occasional products that don't fit these categories, such as anything from our partners
Yep, it is a lot, but we don't expect more than a handful of folks to buy everything. I watch very closely the saturation level of our customers and I feel we surpassed it this August. Another good reason not to replicate this month in the future. :)
-Lisa
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Maybe we can shift the OP's question a bit. Do you ever intend to slow down the product schedule?August was indeed a watershed month and not one that we want to replicate for a lot of reasons, mostly related to sanity but somewhat related to cash flow.
The base schedule that we are shooting for is:
a) a monthly Adventure Path volume
b) a Pathfinder Chronicles product during most months (about 10 or so a year)
c) alternating Pathfinder modules and Pathfinder Companions each month
d) alternating flip mats and map packs each month
e) a monthly Planet Stories book
f) new item cards about 3 times a year, maybe 4
g) 2 to 3 new Titanic card or board games each year
h) Pathfinder RPG products to be determined
h) occasional products that don't fit these categories, such as anything from our partnersYep, it is a lot, but we don't expect more than a handful of folks to buy everything. I watch very closely the saturation level of our customers and I feel we surpassed it this August. Another good reason not to replicate this month in the future. :)
-Lisa
wait...you're only planning a module for every second month? that, kinda sucks. I really love the modules. probly even more then the APs. oh well. guess i'll have to deal with it. maybe subscribe to planet stories and bank every second one to occupy myself the months a module doesn't come.
I watch very closely the saturation level of our customers and I feel we surpassed it this August. Another good reason not to replicate this month in the future. :)
Yeah, I'm sorry but I can't commit to spending $120 on your products every month. I was fine with it this month because the campaign setting, the end of the last AP, the beginning of the new, and a couple copies of the RPG were absolute must-owns for me. Now I have to start putting money aside for my my kids's Christmas presents.
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CEO
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Yeah, I'm sorry but I can't commit to spending $120 on your products every month.
Agreed! Most months, superscribers will end up with around $40 in new products, a bit more if you throw Planet Stories on there. I figure that $50 a month is pretty much the max for most folks, and for a large contingent of people, that number is much lower. Which is probably why most of our subscribers are just Pathfinder AP subscribers. They can afford the $20 or so with shipping each month. Then they pick up other products on an ad hoc basis, which we are fine with!
-Lisa
Most months, superscribers will end up with around $40 in new products....
-Lisa
Yea! I am still in your target market! I love this place.
Yeah, I'm sorry but I can't commit to spending $120 on your products every month. I was fine with it this month because the campaign setting, the end of the last AP, the beginning of the new, and a couple copies of the RPG were absolute must-owns for me. Now I have to start putting money aside for my my kids's Christmas presents.
I love this... it's too funny. "Sorry kids, no Christmas this year. Oh, and plan on going to Community College, Daddy's gaming habit burned through your college fund.
:)
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Creative Director
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sorry to threadjack, but how come Paizo didn't include information on scaling its adventures to various levels? I loved how it provided such information during its run with Dungeon magazine.
While we are going to include some scaling rules in the Pathfinder Society scenarios, we don't include such information in the modules or in the Adventure Path primarily because I feel it's mostly wasted space to do so. There's more to making an adventure work than just changing all the hit dice for a monster; some adventures break once they're for different levels, since PCs have different powers at different levels. But what it REALLY boils down to is that I feel that the half page or so it would take to provide some really wimpy and not SUPER helpful scaling notes like we did in Dungeon is space better used to give the reader another half-page of actual adventure content.
In the Adventure Paths... scaling info is even LESS necessary, since the whole thing creates an entire campaign.
That said... if folk really miss the scaling the adventure sidebars, we'll consider putting them back in. But it'd have to be a pretty vocal call for them, to be honest, since I'm not that huge a fan of them...
While we are going to include some scaling rules in the Pathfinder Society scenarios, we don't include such information in the modules or in the Adventure Path primarily because I feel it's mostly wasted space to do so. There's more to making an adventure work than just changing all the hit dice for a monster; some adventures break once they're for different levels, since PCs have different powers at different levels. But what it REALLY boils down to is that I feel that the half page or so it would take to provide some really wimpy and not SUPER helpful scaling notes like we did in Dungeon is space better used to give the reader another half-page of actual adventure content.
I totally agree. There are enough adventures out there, why bother scaling anyway? If you want to run an adventure that's higher level, run it next. If you're already past that point, either rework the whole thing or use it when you start a new campaign.
In every adventure I ever wrote, I always avoided the scaling part because I never felt that it was not designed well enough to be truly helpful.
That said... if folk really miss the scaling the adventure sidebars, we'll consider putting them back in. But it'd have to be a pretty vocal call for them, to be honest, since I'm not that huge a fan of them...
I'd just like to very vocally say NO PLEASE! Although it would be helpful if all adventure path adventures would start out with a simple "This adventure is for characters level X to X." I can never seem to find that anywhere.
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Creative Director
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Although it would be helpful if all adventure path adventures would start out with a simple "This adventure is for characters level X to X." I can never seem to find that anywhere.
We do have that info... but it's squirreled away on the credits and legal text page in small font. For Second Darkness onward, we're hoping to get that info at the end of the "Adventure Summary" section. (The starting levels are also listed on the back cover.)
Also i am one of the customers who read the AP for fiction (as I do not DM at the moment)
Keep up up the good work.
Oh yeah! Plus three syllables: I-CON-ICS
Slap them on the cover, and I'm sold!
Pathfinder products seem so internally consistent overall. I love that.
I for one do will always be a subscriber. I do not want to lose my
Charter status.... :)
Me either!
I don't even run published adventures and I buy every AP. Just for the Golarion stuff in the back they are worth it.
Me either!I for one do will always be a subscriber. I do not want to lose my
Charter status.... :)
LOL, me either! I'm in horrid financial straits but one thing that can't be canceled is my Pathfinder stuff.
LOL, me either! I'm in horrid financial straits but one thing that can't be canceled is my Pathfinder stuff.Me either!I for one do will always be a subscriber. I do not want to lose my
Charter status.... :)
~grins~ Well, my finaces are not in that great of a situation either, so I can understand. In my view, everything BUT the Pathfinder AP can be put on the chopping block if I really need the money. However, the $20 or so that the AP cost can be consitered a must have bill. ~shrugs~ What can I say, I am paranoid about repeating my mistake with Dragon / Dungeon mag and missing out on several issues because I wanted to "save" some money.
Save money... bah. Just do what I do go give some plasma if you run too short. It will help someone else who needs it and pay for the AP and shipping.
~grins~ Good point!
What can I say the outstanding Paizo goodness is worth more than a little bit of my bodily fluids. (Ummm maybe that's why I picked Cheliax)
~slowly backs away from you while giving you a VERY wierd look~
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~slowly backs away from you while giving you a VERY wierd look~
Oh come on it's not that bad. At least I am not like a buddy from the Marines.
What does he do? Go running for the hills? Nope he calls his gf and tells her it's over. Hangs up and snugs back up to the other chick. Whom he eventually married.
Personally, I like to give blood and plasma. Other people need them. I admit plasma is better for me cause I get some cash. Still it's a small price to pay for saving a life and getting some great gaming stuff.
~slowly backs away from you while giving you a VERY wierd look~Oh come on it's not that bad. At least I am not like a buddy from the Marines.
[spoiler]He was dating one chick but had hooked up with another. This other chick gets him going and then cuts him just a little with a straight razor and licks it.
What does he do? Go running for the hills? Nope he calls his gf and tells her it's over. Hangs up and snugs back up to the other chick. Whom he eventually married. [/spioler]
Personally, I like to give blood and plasma. Other people need them. I admit plasma is better for me cause I get some cash. Still it's a small price to pay for saving a life and getting some great gaming stuff.
Oh, I agree about the giving blood. I used to do it all the time at the Red Cross. Sadly, I have not done so in the past year or so since the place is in an area I usually do not go to. ~sighs~ I guess I need to start to give blood more often.
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~slowly backs away from you while giving you a VERY wierd look~Oh come on it's not that bad. At least I am not like a buddy from the Marines.
** spoiler omitted **
Should I feel bad that the first thing I think isn't "Hey, different strokes for different folks" or "Well then!" but "Oooh! PC/NPC seeds!"?
Oh damn it, it just upgraded to full NPC sketches while I was typing! What the hell?!
For what it’s worth, even if Paizo only publishes Adventure Paths for four years, they’re guaranteed eight years worth of business from me. To be fair, that’s only because I can’t afford more than one volume every two months, but there you have it.
My cash-poor status aside, I really like Paizo’s publishing model. I’m a huge fan of pre-written adventures, especially ones that add to a campaign world in the way theirs do. In fact, I’m a little leery of the upcoming Campaign Setting and Pathfinder Companion books because I’ve really enjoyed the practice of creating setting information only as the adventure warrants. It felt like the world grew with each adventure rather than just preexisting and having adventures “slotted” into it…if that makes sense.
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~slowly backs away from you while giving you a VERY wierd look~Oh come on it's not that bad. At least I am not like a buddy from the Marines.
** spoiler omitted **
Should I feel bad that the first thing I think isn't "Hey, different strokes for different folks" or "Well then!" but "Oooh! PC/NPC seeds!"?
Oh damn it, it just upgraded to full NPC sketches while I was typing! What the hell?!
No, you shouldn't feel bad. people do it all the time. it's part of the creative process where you get your imagination to work all the time at converting happennings to stuff you can use. i've watched fiction writers do the same thing with everything from a dusty old bookstore to a lovers quarrel in the street. it's normal. (and if not, i should prolly feel bad too, since i basically did the same thing, making her a thrall of Malcanthet)
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I've only run two of the APs thus far (SC, AoW), but I'll be buying them and running them as long as Paizo keeps making them. Whenever we my current campaign, the next one will be Savage Tide, and then probably Rise of the Rune Lords after that. Quality breeds loyalty, and the quality around here hasn't begun to ebb yet, from what I can see.
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I did not have a group when Shackled City, AoW, and Savage Tide came out. I am very disappointed the PDFs for Savage Tide are never going to come out. I would much rather print everything up and work from a notebook than several magazines. And copying them is such a hassle although I was doing that before PDFs (I am so spoiled).
When Runelords came out I started playing it right away and we will be done about the end of the year. I recently started a second group and began CotCT. And now I am excited about Second Darkness. When will the madness end... I may never get to play ST or A0W or SC...
Save money... bah. Just do what I do. Go give some plasma if you run too short.
I used to donate blood regularly. Then they changed the rules in the U.S. so being in Europe for any length of time (instead of more than 2 months) between 1980 an 1996 makes you inelligible. Stupid mad cow disease.
Then again, I can't give blood for 12 months after a deployment to Afghanistan or Iraq, either (malaria threat areas).
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Hey I wouldn't mind seeing those since the story was the inspiration.
Well here goes, quick rough version:
Andoran Eagle Knight(LG human fighter) working behind enemy line in Cheliax gets embroiled in a relationship with a Nidalese expatriot(CN half-elf cleric). Said Nidalese woman was born to a noble house picked up early in life by Zon-Kuthon clergy, but she skipped out of that church and country when it was clear it wasn't for her(and it was becoming dangerously apparent to the Kuthonite church that she was too wild for them). Somewhere along her flight to neighboring Cheliax she picked up on the worship of Calistria and has thrown herself into it. She still has some habits and leanings she picked up in Nidal that make even some Calistrians somewhat uncomfortable.
When the aforementioned Eagle Knight, who has a reputation for being a straight-laced sort, gets involved with her, his superiors fear that he's in danger of being compromised by an enemy agent. At the same time, the couples situation in Cheliax heats up as intelligence there becomes aware of the Eagle Knight's presence and Nidalese clergy(escorted through Cheliax by a few Hellknights) to take their wayward daughter back home.
PCs could be sent in by Andoran authorities who don't know the full situation to extract the Eagle Knight. The Knight in turn will probably be trying to convince the PCs that the Nidalese is no threat and demand that she be escorted to safety as well. Ideally the Nidalese woman would be "strange" enough to make that a hard thing to sell to the heroes, even though she really is no threat to him or his cause.
The finer details of the NPCs started fluctuating more as the adventure hook took prominence. It happened pretty quick.
I got way more than that. You see a lot of things while in the military. :)
Please, no more camel spider horror stories!
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I guess my long-winded question is simply this: how long can you keep it up? How many Pathfinder Chronicles and APs and card decks and Adventure Modules can you write before the market is saturated? I fear that it is not sustainable to stick with the ultra-aggressive release schedule you've had thus far.
I think the bigger question is, how many APs can they write before they have to move on to another part of Golarion? :)
The modules are fairly wide spread and it's only a matter of time before another Curse of the Crimson Throne - Conquest of the Bloodsworn Vale "issue" pops up.
I for one don't care, but it'll become hard for them to maintain their "no timeline" policy... even if I want them to be ordered! :)