And sooner or later people I play with will get sick of me finding all these obscure feats and skills and classes. Just saying.
And sooner or later people I play with will get sick of me finding all these obscure feats and skills and classes. Just saying.
Not me--the more the merrier! Options = good.
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questions on new fighter:
Pathfinder fighters have Knowledge:Dungeoneering as a class skill. Is that something your fighter class has as well? Also, shouldn't fighters have Endurance? I'd like Sleight of Hand for quickdraw, and your fighters don't have Survivial like PFRPG fighters do, but I can see both of those, as they have other uses with the skill changes that aren't necessarily appropriate for fighters. But I'm pretty sure the lack of Endurance is an oversight, and Knowledge (Dungeoneering) might have been overlooked.
Restating Sheraviel again. Heh. It's a good thing I love character creation. I'll try to have a second character ready tonight too.
Edit: Oh, I thought I remembered you talking about this: if I take weapon finesse, can I use dex for maneuvers with a finessable weapon instead of strength?
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I've created a second character. She's an abandoned half elf street urchin. She rolled a 6, and I put it in charisma. I figure it's a combination of lack of hygiene, lack of social graces, a suspicious (paranoid) manner, and a certain amount of unattractiveness. She's small and undernourished (less than 5' tall), and has been nicknamed "Trog" by the other kindly denizens of the streets.
She has some shuriken, but I think of them more as broken parts of some dogslicers she wrestled away from goblins in the city sewers / dump, or other poorly constructed blades that broke. She's got caltrops, which are shards of broken glass, sharp stones and the like she keeps to discourage people from following her, and a signet ring, steel mirror and silver holy symbol - all items she stole from people or found digging through trash / bodies.
Some questions / things I want to do:
I'd like to use the longspear. As monks have spear and shortspear proficiency, I wondered if it'd be okay to also have longspear proficiency too.
Also, I don't really want her to be able to read. I was wondering if I could trade poor listening / speaking ability in a language for reading ability. By poor I mean, she's learned bits and pieces of language to survive, but she's always using inappropriate langauge. She's always cursed at and reviled herself, so she's almost completely unaware of polite turns of phrase like m'Lord or m'Lady. She just uses the same rough speech all the time, even with nobles, that she hears directed at herself.
1. Pathfinder fighters have Knowledge:Dungeoneering as a class skill. Is that something your fighter class has as well?
2. Also, shouldn't fighters have Endurance?
3. and your fighters don't have Survivial like PFRPG fighters do
4. Oh, I thought I remembered you talking about this: if I take weapon finesse, can I use dex for maneuvers with a finessable weapon instead of strength?
Answers:
1. Yes, and Knowledge (dungeoneering) been rolled into Profession (mining), which also encompasses stonecunning, so they all make one big "underground stuff" skill.2. YES! They most certainly should. Especially because it's been revised so that every 3 ranks in Endurance drops your armor check penalties by 1.
3. Oops! That was an oversight. Thanks for spotting it.
4. Yes for maneuvers that use that weapon (sunder, disarm, etc.), and no for maneuvers that don't (bull rush, etc.).
Will send a revised fighter before next session. Sorry for the oversights/bugs. Trying to get Pathfinder into playable shape is a work in progress.
1. I'd like to use the longspear. As monks have spear and shortspear proficiency, I wondered if it'd be okay to also have longspear proficiency too.
2. I was wondering if I could trade poor listening / speaking ability in a language for reading ability.
More answers!
1. I'll send a revised monk, with options for making weapons useful. In fact, my goal is to revise all of the classes to expand options (incorporating some Unearthed Arcana stuff, etc.) and to balance them a bit better (e.g., to make useful monks, bards, and fighters).2. Yes -- that's a fair trade.
So, the NPC encountered last night is a priest of Olidammara, right? Does this mean that we're using the Greyhawk/3.5 pantheon, or do you have a homebrew pantheon going on (or that is being created as we play)?
So, the NPC encountered last night is a priest of Olidammara, right? Does this mean that we're using the Greyhawk/3.5 pantheon, or do you have a homebrew pantheon going on (or that is being created as we play)?
Aviona is an incredibly polytheistic setting (as befits the inhabitants' chaotic attitudes). In Aviona itself, most humans worship Greyhawk gods, and most elves worship elven gods. The Druidic religion can be practiced independently from worship of gods, or in tandem with it, much like Shinto can be practiced along with other faiths. And then there are any number of people who worship the moon, or the Unicorn of Amber, or their ancestors, or belly button lint, or whatever. In Northwind, the humans tend more to the Norse pantheon, with some Greyhawk gods thrown in the mix. No one will look at you funny if you worship Golarion gods, or pretty much any others, though. The only religions that are actually banned are demon-worship and the Greek mythos, for historical reasons.
Just don't let Rim run across a Priest of the God of ugliness or he will have a fit.
Nothing but try to help, but a priest of the god of ugliness would stir his indignance. His Deity is Shelyn the Goddess of beauty so he has no business associating with a priest of ugliness.
depends on your point of view.
Yuck.
He's so pretty...
Or at least he was, until Rim gave him the glaive to the face in a fit of Lawful Goodness...
Sorry, thought you meant Etienne Jaumet, who is anything but pretty...
Aviona is an incredibly polytheistic setting (as befits the inhabitants' chaotic attitudes).
Thanks for the info. I'm just thinking ahead to the type of cleric I want to play.
Any thoughts on applying Unearthed Arcana's Cloistered Cleric to Pathfinder's Cleric? That's currently the character I'm envisioning, although probably not worshiping a librarian-type diety. Maybe more of a forbidden knowledge type of diety or a bardic knowledge type of diety (meaning bits and pieces of random trivia picked up here and there add up to have a pretty broad knowledge base). My cleric will probably also be a coward, so I'll have to consider that when choosing a diety, also.
I love making new characters!
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Aviona is an incredibly polytheistic setting (as befits the inhabitants' chaotic attitudes).Thanks for the info. I'm just thinking ahead to the type of cleric I want to play.
Any thoughts on applying Unearthed Arcana's Cloistered Cleric to Pathfinder's Cleric? That's currently the character I'm envisioning, although probably not worshiping a librarian-type diety. Maybe more of a forbidden knowledge type of diety or a bardic knowledge type of diety (meaning bits and pieces of random trivia picked up here and there add up to have a pretty broad knowledge base). My cleric will probably also be a coward, so I'll have to consider that when choosing a diety, also.
I love making new characters!
Hehe, in our red hand of doom game we have a cleric of Olidamara that is pretty much exactly that. He's a cloistered cleric, trickster, can't fight well, just buffs the party and get out of the way. My old gnome wife beguiler with a strength of 6 ended up protecting him. :D It got so bad, I disabled an enemy with a spell....and while he was helpless, I had to coup de grace him three times before it stuck and he actually died. hehe.
Any thoughts on applying Unearthed Arcana's Cloistered Cleric to Pathfinder's Cleric?
I LOVE the UA variants -- have included a lot of them in the new class writeups I'm doing. Cloistered cleric, battle sorcerer, druidic hunter, etc. are all viable options.
Hehe, in our red hand of doom game we have a cleric of Olidamara that is pretty much exactly that. He's a cloistered cleric, trickster, can't fight well, just buffs the party and get out of the way.
Ooh... rogue 2/cloistered cleric 4/prestige bard would be a perfect cleric of Olidammara (ollidamra?)... I might just have to stat up Derek's friend now, and keep him around as a useful NPC contact.
I LOVE the UA variants -- have included a lot of them in the new class writeups I'm doing.
Nice. My favorite character that I never got to play was a Thug Fighter variant. I saw lots of potential in that character.
Nice. My favorite character that I never got to play was a Thug Fighter variant. I saw lots of potential in that character.
The new fighter now says, for every even level, "Bonus Feat or Sneak Attack." Derek says I should change the name to something more martial sounding -- and I'd totally agree except that Sneak Attack is pretty ingrained as the name for that particular ability. But if you want to call it "Efficient Strike" or something, go right ahead!
P.S. Will email all classes out this week, plus the full descriptions for the combat and other changes. Maybe a first draft feats list as well. WARNING: Please do not print all this stuff, if you value your cartridges!
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Nice. My favorite character that I never got to play was a Thug Fighter variant. I saw lots of potential in that character.The new fighter now says, for every even level, "Bonus Feat or Sneak Attack." Derek says I should change the name to something more martial sounding -- and I'd totally agree except that Sneak Attack is pretty ingrained as the name for that particular ability. But if you want to call it "Efficient Strike" or something, go right ahead!
P.S. Will email all classes out this week, plus the full descriptions for the combat and other changes. Maybe a first draft feats list as well. WARNING: Please do not print all this stuff, if you value your cartridges!
::waits for monky-monk goodness::
::waits for monky-monk goodness::
Great -- the only one I'm way behind on. Sneak preview:
Just an aside, I had no idea that a Glaive wielding Cleric would be so mean. It helped that the dice cooperated.
Just an aside, I had no idea that a Glaive wielding Cleric would be so mean. It helped that the dice cooperated.
Clerics have always been awesome in 3rd ed. Just wait until you get access to divine might...
Ooh, ooh! Another question!
Are Arabian-flavored cultures accessible in this campaign?
Ooh, ooh! Another question! Are Arabian-flavored cultures accessible in this campaign?
If you sail south and east, you reach Aramni (vaguely middle eastern -- or really more Moor-dominated Spanish in flavor), and beyond that is Bailakash (very much middle eastern -- think Morrocco). So the answer is kind of yes, if you mean in this particular homebrew world.
But there is also trade with the steriotypically "Arabian-flavored" Greyhawk nations of Ekbir and Zeif -- their status with regards to being on the same world is somewhat questionable, but the fact that you can sail to them and back isn't. So that makes a very definite yes.
And as Derek pointed out, planar travel makes anything possible -- which creates an undeniable yes!
That might work incredibly well, if you can wait a bit; I happen to know (with DM prescience, and from the fact that I sometimes enjoy jumping around in campaign time) that Duke Kolvin will be bringing in an airship and crew from Barsoom in about a year or two, campaign-time.
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::waits for monky-monk goodness::Great -- the only one I'm way behind on. Sneak preview: ** spoiler omitted **Alternatively, I suppose I could go heavier on the ki powers (6 levels) and keep the 3/4 BAB, so the monk would be analogous to the bard. Opinions?
I think the monk is more of a fighter than a buffer - but it could honestly go either way. If you go the bard like route, I'd say the ki powers should add negative effects to enemies, sort of like the anti-bard (If all they do is let the monk fight like a fighter, then...well...why not make him a fighter). That kinda fits with the whole combat maneuver theme anyway. Vulcan neck pinch! :D
I think the monk is more of a fighter than a buffer - but it could honestly go either way. If you go the bard like route, I'd say the ki powers should add negative effects to enemies, sort of like the anti-bard (If all they do is let the monk fight like a fighter, then...well...why not make him a fighter). That kinda fits with the whole combat maneuver theme anyway. Vulcan neck pinch! :D
Jess -- I appreciate the input -- your insight is useful (as always)! For a monk, I'm thinking a super-mobile fighter with some powers to let him ignore conditions targetting him (disease, poison, etc.) and some limited self-buffs, and maybe some touch-attack powers that his feats don't really allow him (because, let's face it, Gorgon's Fist is a REALLY long feat chain!). I'm leaning towards the full BAB because they already get that in PF for flurries and maneuvers, but if some of the powers we decide he really needs won't fit into 4 "spell levels," I might need to reconsider that. I'll send you an early draft and you can let me know what you think.
P.S. Come to think of it, an actual "anti-bard" with area-effect debuffs would be VERY cool, but not, I think, something I can really pull together this week...
If all they do is let the monk fight like a fighter, then...well...why not make him a fighter.
That was actually my first impulse -- to add the monk abilities as fighter talents and just let the fighter sort of "eat" the monk as a class. But the things you can do with ki powers sort of lead me to think that it might be more fun to keep the monk as a class and see what we can really make possible.
But don't tell Derek that. He hates the monk.
Most of my gaming experience has been playing the "support" PC's. I appreciate the chance to play something other than "support" (read Druid or Cleric). I am interested in the Runeblade and want to see how it plays out. Mainly my PC's are very similar to what I am like in RL, rather quiet and withdrawn.
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If all they do is let the monk fight like a fighter, then...well...why not make him a fighter.That was actually my first impulse -- to add the monk abilities as fighter talents and just let the fighter sort of "eat" the monk as a class. But the things you can do with ki powers sort of lead me to think that it might be more fun to keep the monk as a class and see what we can really make possible.
But don't tell Derek that. He hates the monk.
hehe, too wuxia for him? :D
Nah, they don't have "Create Chimay" as a class skill and know nothing of coffee. You can't do one of those two things, you ain't a monk ;)
Monks have Craft as a class skill; Craft (alchemy) also covers brewing and distilling. Your charteuse is safe!
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Monk thoughts:
Paladin caster level is Paladin level - 3 in PRPG. The monk is listed as having a caster level equal to 1/2 his class level. Wanted to point it out for consistency's sake. :)
Question: Is an attack ki power expended if the attack misses? Or is it still "on the fist" like spell touch attacks until a hit is made,another ki power is used or it is dismissed?
Ki power ideas:
Air Walk (cleric 4/Druid 4) and Water Walk (cleric 3/Druid 3) seem flavorful. As the spells have 10 min/level duration, a sudden version (which makes more sense for monks: dash across the pond kinda feeling) would probably be of significantly lower level. Water walk is better than air walk, I think. :) Monks don't really "walk" on air, they jump and tumble around like maniacs. Using it to get a solid platform to jump from in mid air is cool, though!
Entropic Shield (miss chance on ranged attacks) seems to fit the same niche as the deflect/snatch arrows feats. Fits with the flavor. May already be covered enough with feats, though.
Remove Paralysis might make sense to free themselves from an effect. But that would probably change spell mechanics too much to be useful - unless it requires only mental action to use a ki power (as opposed to spells with components).
I could also see Lesser Restoration - it removed fatigue and lessens exhaustion, it heals some ability damage. If only usable on himself, it's still handy, and that limits it from being too powerful.
Hold Person could be very flavorful - I've seen lots of mystical stories where the monk or ki power user messes up the target's aura and renders them temporarily helpless and immobile. It's very similar to Stunning Fist, though, so it may not make much sense.
Death Ward, or a sudden version might make sense.
Touch of Idiocy makes sense to me. The monk thwacks someone on the head in such a way they're disoriented and stupid for a while.
Spider Climb might be useful. I think a sudden spider climb as a "run up the walls" kind of idea makes more sense than a longer duration.
I see Blindsight is in the Spell Compendium, so I'll comb through that at the PHB II for spells that make sense too.
Accelerated Movement (SC, level 1 arcane) allows full speed Acrobatics, athletics and stealth checks without penalty.
Attune Form (SC, level 3 divine, level 4 arcane) allows 24 hours of safety from negative planar effects. It might fit.
Blood Wind (SC, level 1 arcane) allows natural weapon attacks to be made as ranged attacks with 20' range. Doesn't allow ranged AOOs or increase reach.
Foundations of Stone (SC, level 1 divine) provides bonuses to resist bull rushes or tripping, and gives a bojus to armor class, but you cannot move. It could be a cool magical monk stance. Mountain stance (SC arcane 2, divine 2) gives no armor class bonus, but gives a bonus to all cmd checks except sunder and disarm equal to the caster's caster level, which is cool and monkish too.
Swift fly (SC, level 2,3 arcane) might be cool - the monk fles up to get someplace he can't climb or jump to, and hopes his slow fall or acrobatics ability will save him from too much damage on the way down from attacking the dragon or whatever.
Swift haste is a 2nd level ranger spell in the spell compendium.
Emerald Flame Fist is cool, but too high a level(SC level 7 arcane). Maybe a "Jade Flame Fist" (which fits with eastern monks anyway) that is weaker.
Know Opponent (arcane 3, divine 3) might make sense to learn strengths and weaknesses of opponents.
Nerveskitter (SC, arcane 1) is an immediate action bonus to initiative.
One thought I had instead of Cure spells was the Vigor line of spells from the 3.5 Spell Compendium. They introduce fast healing for a certain number of rounds, instead of a flat amount at once. Slower healing over time fits my idea of a monk increasing their ability to fight through self control and meditative body management. Those spells heal a flat amount of damage each round for 10 + 1 round / caster level. This makes it useful for out of combat healing, but not in combat healing, but I think it fits with the asian martial artist mythos better. Lesser Vigor (lvl 1 cleric/druid): fast healing 1 for up to 15 rounds; Vigor (lvl 3 cleric/druid): fast healing 2 for up to 25 rounds, Greater Vigor (lvl 5 cleric/druid): fast healing 4 for up to 35 rounds
Another random thought - some of these make sense as responsive actions. Blur, displacement, if sudden...won't make much sense to use, most of the time, because it only lasts a round. If sudden blur was IMMEDIATE blur, however - it could be cast as an immediate action, the monk loses their swift action for the next round, and they could have blur up until the end of their next turn, or the beginning of the turn after their next turn.
Jess -- Thanks for the feedback!!! I was half brain-dead after a long day at work yesterday, and missed the CL until after I'd emailed it. CL = monk level -3 it is.
Regarding ki powers:
When I get home tonight, I'll check your list against mine, and make adjustments. (Even then, we'll almost certainly end up making adjustments during playtesting when the monk actually hits the stage, as it were.)
All classes are in the 1.0 stage!
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I should totally look up psionic powers and see if any fit the easter martial artist flavor and fill a void in the "spell" based list.
Oh, and how are they "cast". Somatic and vocal components? Material components? Mental actions only? Can the charge on an attack ki power be held on an attack missing?
1. Oh, and how are they "cast". Somatic and vocal components? Material components? Mental actions only?
2. Can the charge on an attack ki power be held on an attack missing?
1. Didn't I include that? Somatic and verbal components only. I'm picturing a lot of arm-waving like in the old Shaw Brothers kung fu movies, and a lot of "hi-ya!" yelling for verbals.
2. Since they work as spells "except as listed below," Hold the Charge would apply.
I intentionally didn't go the whole psionics route because Pathfinder has been so daggone determined to keep them out of the game, so even though I like them, it seemed like revising a core class to work with them was a bit much. I can do it, though, if people would like (and, honestly, the ki pool might work a lot better as a PSP pool than as a Vancian construct). Hell, I've already put the psionic focus feats in there as possible bonus feats, just changed the names. How about this: "Psionic powers and spells from other sources can be added to the ki powers list with GM approval." That way, each monk's list could be decided on a case-by-case basis.
By the way, I was reminded of the scene from The 13th Warrior that I was talking about Monday night, where the Arab in the movie is learning the language of the Norse he's traveling with. The scene condenses weeks of learning the language into just a few minutes. I found a clip of the scene on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvaaX1NhDE
The scene in question is only about the first half of the linked clip.
AWESOME! I'd forgotten all about that part until you mentioned it. Thanks for the clip!
BTW, I emailed the DRAFT classes, revised from Pathfinder. Some of the non-casters (and the bard) were "buffed" to bring them up to par; just about all of them had some extra options (from various sources) added. These should by no means be considered the only available classes and/or variants. Any others are likely to be approved with minimal modifications (if any), like the Runeblade that Silverhair provided (thanks again for that one!).
P.S. Like is says in the email, you probably don't want to print these.
P.P.S. Yes, the barbarian should most definitely have Endurance as a class skill.
P.P.P.S. The UA battle sorcerer with the right bloodlines makes a dandy "gish."
Looks like for the Wizard you added Eidetic Memory as an Arcane Bond option, and the Cleric is unchanged. Am I missing any changes from those two classes? I only skimmed them.
Looks like for the Wizard you added Eidetic Memory as an Arcane Bond option, and the Cleric is unchanged. Am I missing any changes from those two classes? I only skimmed them. In no particular order (and I may be forgetting some):
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Fighter / Eldritch Knight question:
Eldritch Knight Diverse Training: You add your EK level to both spellcasting and fighter levels to meet the prerequisites for feats.
Does that also count for Canny Defense in the house ruled fighter class?
In this case, I figured I'd take a couple levels of fighter with Sheraviel before dipping into wizard. So she'd have a +2 bonus to armor class while she was taking wizard levels. But when she qualifies for EK at 8th level, would she be able to add another +1 to her Canny Defense AC (intelligence allowing)? I guess that applies to all talents. I wouldn't be gaining levels in fighter, so I would gain new talents, but when I'm a level 2 fighter/5 wizard/8 eldritch knight would my one talent behave as if I was a 10th level fighter?
What is the difference between Precise Strike and Insightful strike? The only thing I see is it looks like insightful might be usable with two weapon fighting / shields, but is limited by int, while precise strike requires only one weapon, but is limited to 10. Is there a reason both are offered? Might they make more sense rolled into one ability?
Fighter / Eldritch Knight question:
Eldritch Knight Diverse Training: You add your EK level to both spellcasting and fighter levels to meet the prerequisites for feats.
Does that also count for Canny Defense in house ruled fighter class?
In this case, I figured I'd take a couple levels of fighter with Sheraviel before dipping into wizard. So she'd have a +2 bonus to armor class while she was taking wizard levels. But when she qualifies for EK at 8th level, would she be able to add another +1 to her Canny Defense AC (intelligence allowing)?
Ooh! Good question.
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Ooh! Good question.
The only other one that will matter for me is Precise Strike.
Also, FYI, with the feat changes and no longer turning in my armor profs for combat expertise, I no longer qualify for any improved (combat maneuver) feats. So...Sheraviel is going to be quite a bit more changed and limited in her capabilities. Just in case you need that information while planning things next session.
Edit:
Trog's AC is 15. That's with a 19 dex and a 16 in wisdom. I understand why you don't want to give a big bonus to anything at first level...but she has no options to raise her AC, as a monk. This is pretty awful for the first 2-3 levels. If stuff is hitting and killing or nearly killing Sheraviel in one blow with an AC of 19, Trog's in big trouble. I've got really high defensive stats, and I"m still gonna be as vulnerable as a no defenses wizard that puts mage armor up.
I'm not sure exactly what to do about it. The best idea I can come up with under the restrictions here is to move the monk AC up to +1 at 1st level. That way a monk with a (more normal) 14 dex and 14 wisdom would start out with an AC of 14 instead of 13. By 2nd level that's up to 15 ac, and so on. I'd be cool with not getting to +2 until level 8 as normal, or maybe change it to increase every 5 levels. +1 at 1, +2 at 5, +3 at 10, +4 at 15 and +5 at 20 as usual.