OrgPlay Advice for GMs & Players


Pathfinder Society


Since I'm new to the whole organized play thing, and the chance is there are others who will be also, I'm starting this thread so people can give out advice. Please preface your posts with "For Players" or "For GMs".

Post away! :D

Scarab Sages

Uh, I have a seemingly silly question: what's the difference between organized play and...um, I guess the term would be regular play? or at least what are the differences that would entitle it to a distinction at all?

Dark Archive

The differance between normal play and orginized play is as follows:

1) Time. You only have about 4 hours to complete the adventure. There is no waiting for food or smoke breaks. This is due to most game slots being about 4 hours anyways and it also helps players to stay in character and place their collective noses to the grind stone of the adventure's plot line.

2) Paperwork. There is also record keeping. though this is normal in orginized play it increases to a higher degree. GMs are supposed to keep turn in results of the adventure from what was accomplished to whom died or whom leveled. In other orginized play events there was also magic item sheets to the player had proof they had said items.

3) New Faces. The idea of orginized play, at least at Cons, is to meet new players and make a cohesive team out of random strangers. This also helps thoose involved in the hobby to put faces to board names and create or even stregthen friendships.

Dark Archive

Lilith wrote:

Since I'm new to the whole organized play thing, and the chance is there are others who will be also, I'm starting this thread so people can give out advice. Please preface your posts with "For Players" or "For GMs".

Post away! :D

Be ready to make the party move. Asa GM we need to keep the players focused and moving forward. A lot of the normal players you normally play with may not be used to moving things along at a timely pace, so you need to learn how to motivate them to move.

You also need to be able to make a quick call that will stay constant. Stick to the rules by all means but also try not to bog down the game play as we only have 4 hours to play.

Scarab Sages 4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Captain, Australia—NSW—Greater West

Just curious, as I am interested in this, but from a home game perspective, does the 4 hour restriction apply to home games as well??

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
sanwah68 wrote:
Just curious, as I am interested in this, but from a home game perspective, does the 4 hour restriction apply to home games as well??

He is talking about Con Play..

And I believe, but not sure, that at GenCon UK we have 5 Hours

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Dragnmoon wrote:
sanwah68 wrote:
Just curious, as I am interested in this, but from a home game perspective, does the 4 hour restriction apply to home games as well??

He is talking about Con Play..

And I believe, but not sure, that at GenCon UK we have 5 Hours

True, but as I understand it, one hour is set aside to handle all the paperwork/administration that comes of trying to sort several dozen gamers into coherent groups. Plus, you know, introducing yourself to the weird strangers you'll be spending the next four hours helping to kill things and take their stuff.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Paul Watson wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
sanwah68 wrote:
Just curious, as I am interested in this, but from a home game perspective, does the 4 hour restriction apply to home games as well??

He is talking about Con Play..

And I believe, but not sure, that at GenCon UK we have 5 Hours

True, but as I understand it, one hour is set aside to handle all the paperwork/administration that comes of trying to sort several dozen gamers into coherent groups. Plus, you know, introducing yourself to the weird strangers you'll be spending the next four hours helping to kill things and take their stuff.

which is 1 hour more then the Indy Gencon gets for paperwork.. ;-)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Dragnmoon wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
sanwah68 wrote:
Just curious, as I am interested in this, but from a home game perspective, does the 4 hour restriction apply to home games as well??

He is talking about Con Play..

And I believe, but not sure, that at GenCon UK we have 5 Hours

True, but as I understand it, one hour is set aside to handle all the paperwork/administration that comes of trying to sort several dozen gamers into coherent groups. Plus, you know, introducing yourself to the weird strangers you'll be spending the next four hours helping to kill things and take their stuff.
which is 1 hour more then the Indy Gencon gets for paperwork.. ;-)

Quite. But unlike our Colonial cousins, we are British, sir, and understand the importance of paperwork and bureaucracy. ;-)

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Paul Watson wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
Paul Watson wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
sanwah68 wrote:
Just curious, as I am interested in this, but from a home game perspective, does the 4 hour restriction apply to home games as well??

He is talking about Con Play..

And I believe, but not sure, that at GenCon UK we have 5 Hours

True, but as I understand it, one hour is set aside to handle all the paperwork/administration that comes of trying to sort several dozen gamers into coherent groups. Plus, you know, introducing yourself to the weird strangers you'll be spending the next four hours helping to kill things and take their stuff.
which is 1 hour more then the Indy Gencon gets for paperwork.. ;-)
Quite. But unlike our Colonial cousins, we are British, sir, and understand the importance of paperwork and bureaucracy. ;-)

Ehh just Pencil Whip it..... American here..;-)

The Exchange 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Mediterranean

For players, the advice I'd give is to be willing to have fun - that means being ready to do the adventure without too much wondering about what your character's motivation is. And make sure you can actually hear the GM as you'll probably be near other tables.

For GMs, be prepared. Know the scenario well so you don't have to keep on looking at notes. When actually running, keep up a good pace (watch the players to see who is not drawn in).

Lantern Lodge 4/5

Australian conventions run by 3-hour timetables (due to LARPers organising the events), which cause all kind of headaches for table-top RPGers running American-written adventures.

Sometimes we schedule two games over three sessions; other times the adventures are rushed :-(

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
DarkWhite wrote:

Australian conventions run by 3-hour timetables (due to LARPers organising the events), which cause all kind of headaches for table-top RPGers running American-written adventures.

Sometimes we schedule two games over three sessions; other times the adventures are rushed :-(

Yuck!!!!!!

To tell the truth... almost *maybe every* every game I have played in at a convention has run over the time limit...

But I have never ran in a game that was part organized play.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Couple things:

* RPGA at GenCon (and all the big events) run on 5 hour time tables however there is no break between the morning and afternoon slots. The main reason, well, just try herding THAT many gamers :).

* As a player, sit down with an open mind. Even though you're probably going to be at a table with different weirdos then you're used to, they're still usually fun. With the way the threads on this board are going, there should be some interesting interaction.

*As a GM, efficiency is king. I know, at home you want to let the RP go but you are on the clock while at a con. Have fun, but come prepared to crack the whip. Oh, and for those judging alot, drink water. Lots of it. Not coke. not dew. water. At breakfast, even if you don't normally, channel your inner brit and order some tea. Your vocal cords will thank you for it.

(BTW, I'll be judging 9 slots at GenCon, 2 for PFS and 7 for the RPGA)

Dark Archive

For DM's

Be prepared and flexible.

Because you're running a con game you have to expect that you may have people with multiple playing styles. Con games are not for everyone and since this is a new organized play campaign you may get new con players. Expect to teach some of the rules but most player's will also help other players out as well.

Set the expectations down at the beginning of the game like No Rules Lawyering - if a rule comes up in question accept the DM's ruling and go on with it - especially if it will stop the action at the table...but don't be a dick about it. Have another player who's not acting at the moment look up the rule if he/she can and then adjudicate accordingly.

Let each person have a small amount of stagetime if they are role-playing but keep it moving. With the limited amount of game time you have to watch the clock.

Con adventures are usually broken down into 2 combats, 1 or 2 skill type challenges and maybe 1 role-playing encounter. At lower levels there may be some smaller combat encounter along the way as well.

READ YOUR ADVENTURE. Yes I'm yelling. Nothing irks a player more than getting a DM who hasn't read the adventure. I know this sounds dumb but I've heard (and particpated) in (about) adventures where the DM had no clue what was going on. Sometimes this is the organizer's fault for not having enough DM's but from what I've seen Josh send out this is not the case.

IF YOU SIGNED UP TO DM YOU'D BETTER BE THERE. (yelling again) - I know the Ram is a great bar but if you've got an 8:00 event running a game hung-over is no fun for you or your table.

For the DM and Players

Shower. Yes I know this sounds like common sense but having the cat-piss man as a fellow player or DM can ruin the experience for everyone.

For Players

Be prepared and flexible. If you are an experienced player have your character ready and all books necessary to play your character. It is up to you to have a PHB, dice and potentially miniature.

Because you're playing a con game you have to expect that you may have people with multiple playing styles. Con games are not for everyone and since this is a new organized play campaign you may get new con players.

Don't bring your house-rules. Everyone plays by the Rules-As-Written. Don't try to bend, break or bring in your rules from your home DM.

Bring the DM treats - he/she will like them:)

I'm sure I'll think up some more after the coffee's kicked in.

Later,

Greg Volz
Natural Twenty Gaming

4/5

From the posts I see here I must add a couple of things.

DM: These are your storytellers and organizers. If they run a game they have not yet played it is called eating or burning it because they cannot play it after they have read it. Also GMs will want to think about a game as a party, where you throw up an open invite to everyone interested and start taking names. Unless you can line up another GM (or judge) then your table limit is 6 players. After that you have to turn them away or organize a later game. If your table only gets 3 or less players then you cannot run it.

Players: Since it is organized play the idea of a level playing field must be enforced. With so many people playing the same scenarios and striving for their own goals competition will naturally occur. The last thing anyone wants to hear is the word unfair. So there are no house rules and everyone plays from the same books. Also be prepared to be thrown in with different player characters and players all the time, but remember even if you are all from different factions and sport different alignments work as a team when it comes to survival.

Russell Akred
Local Event Coordinator
http://www.warhorn.net/cincinnati/
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/lg_cinci/

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Russell Akred wrote:

From the posts I see here I must add a couple of things.

DM: Unless you can line up another GM (or judge) then your table limit is 6 players. After that you have to turn them away or organize a later game. If your table only gets 3 or less players then you cannot run it.

Hey GenCOn UK people...is this true for that event also?.. Mostly the 3 player part..

Seems to me a game can be run with only 3 players..


Does anyone have any comments about home games (i.e. not at a convention)? That's the type of Pathfinder Society play I'd likely be interested in.

Dark Archive

Marshalling -

I expect a Paizo rep (employee or volunteer) will assist in marshalling groups together. Prior to the event all the players huddle together, whether singly or in groups of known associates. The marshal organizes groups of six and matches them up with a DM, assigns a table and off you go. This act continues until all players and DM's are assigned.

It works rather well but can sometimes be like herding cats. To me though the chaos gets everything going and that's when the lights come on and it's "showtime".

I love running con events:)

Later,

Greg Volz
Natural Twenty Gaming

Dark Archive

Home game guidelines have not come out yet. It'll be much the same I'd imagine but you'll game with people you know. The RPGA process, which this is modelled after goes as such:

1. DM logs into a website and registers his home game and orders events. Home players are limited to the same number of events as con players. This is due to the fact that you can take your character that you play at home to any con and/vice-versa. The primary advantage of home play is you know everyone:)

2. Once the DM has the events he/she runs them for his group.

3. The DM logs who played which adventure and some database stuff takes place which in turn affects the game world.

The neat thing about organized play is the sense of a shared game world. Gamers from all over are participating in the same adventures and can regale tales of glory if they meet at a con or online in a message board.

The biggest thing I've found though is that level of participation can cause some fractures between those that play organized play exlcusively and those that dabble. That, in my experience as an organzied play DM, is the fine line that I have to walk. Engaging both those that know the fluff by heart and those that are just looking for a good game.

Later,

Greg Volz
Natural Twenty Gaming

hogarth wrote:
Does anyone have any comments about home games (i.e. not at a convention)? That's the type of Pathfinder Society play I'd likely be interested in.

2/5

I've probably played in, organized, written for, and generally participated in as much "organized play" as anyone. I've participated in campaigns that were international, national, regional, local, and "pretty much only" homeplay. I have participated in the death and birth of several organized play campaigns.

So first some general comments for the organizers:

1) Certs and log-sheets are better than Adventure Sheets.

2) Keeping track of things doesn't have to be a nightmare. Keep it simple. As a campaign determine what you want to track and leave the tracking up to the players. Trust people.

3) Seek local support and assistance. Fob as much off on "the fans" as possible and remember that this endeavor is for THEM not necessarily an arm of your marketing division (though that is a nice perk).

4) Allow that the player base might come up with some good ideas you hadn't thought of. Follow the Wick Axiom and "say yes" but qualify it.

5) The level of enjoyment the players are going to have is directly tied to the quality and quantity of the modules available for play. More modules is better. Don't be afraid to let untried writers have a hand in writing adventurers -- but set up some sort of editorial board to vet these efforts. Don't try to do ALL the editing -- you WILL kill yourselves. Again this gets back to the idea of farming out responsibility in as wide an arc as possible.

6) Be accessible to the player base. Take input from them and allow that they might have good ideas (Paizo already does a stand-up job of this).

7) Don't give everything away. This is just good story-arc construction and something that the Pathfinder AP's have in spades -- don't lose this. Though a bit more internal consistency from module to module is better and have module authors communicate.

8) Support play beyond the Convention and don't require that folks have to be at a certain place and time (GenCon Indy) to actively participate. I know that this is a keen place to start and showcase the campaign but most folks have a very limited ability to travel to such places (and this is only going to get worse). Too much focus on Big Convention Play also leads to resentment among the 75% of the player base who wasn't there.

To adventure writers:

1) Design a module for three hours of play if you plan for it to be played in a four-hour time-slot.

2) Pacing, pacing, pacing. Think roller-coaster ride rather than saga. Keep some of the saga elements, but remember that most folks are there for the "bang".

3) Descriptive text, "to be read to the players box text", maps, encounter/NPC/monster tactics and stat blocks, are NOT optional. They are your most valuable tools and enable you to move game play in the direction you desire.

4) Optional encounters are a nice idea -- especially if the module is going to see home play (where time isn't an issue).

5) Don't be afraid of en media res. You can start in the middle of the action -- players will catch up.

6) Tell a story don't just string together templated monster encounters to show how good you are at smacking the heroes. (BTW, this is NOT something I've seen from Pathfinder!)

7) Allow for role-play AND roll-play (this is why I suggest designing for three hours for a four hour slot -- 'cause roleplaying is going to happen).

8) Allow for failure and plan for it. Provide some guidelines for getting things back on track and real consequences for actions.

For the players:

1) Develop a unique character and INTERACT with other characters. If you are going to be adventuring with some characters on a regular basis form bonds and relationships.

2) Not everyone is going to "get" your character concept.

...to be continued...

2/5

sanwah68 wrote:
Just curious, as I am interested in this, but from a home game perspective, does the 4 hour restriction apply to home games as well??

No. It only has to do with conventions and conforming to the time generally alloted to play through a single "slot".

CJ

2/5

hogarth wrote:
Does anyone have any comments about home games (i.e. not at a convention)? That's the type of Pathfinder Society play I'd likely be interested in.

"Home games" are probably about the best possible way to experience Organized Play.

Convention or Game Day (public) games can be fun. They are exciting because that is generally where modules/adventures debut and you get to meet new people and experience new gaming styles. But they can also be very "not so much fun" for those same reasons and the added factors of time constraints and generally cramped, noisy, and sub-par gaming spaces.

At home you can sit down with your friends (presumably people you LIKE to game with), take your time, role-play your butts off -- and still accomplish the adventure goals. Many writers over-write their adventures (I certainly do). They fill the module with waaaaay more stuff than a group could possibly hope to accomplish in 3-4 (sometimes 5) hours. Some writers even create 2-round adventures which are the bane of all convention organizers. At any rate, with home play the time constraint is no longer a factor and the GM can provide a much richer, fuller experience. Plus all those other things like playing in a comfortable, distraction free (sometimes) environment. And you can engage in all your normal swinish gaming behavior -- like snacking and beer swilling -- without disturbing the folks at the Diplomacy table.

CJ

Dark Archive

This sounds exactly like Winter Fantasy circa 1994/95 at the Hyatt in Milwaukee...were you there:)

thelesuit wrote:
And you can engage in all your normal swinish gaming behavior -- like snacking and beer swilling -- without disturbing the folks at the Diplomacy table.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Question for the veterans.

When I read the Paizo Blog about the Origins Pathfinder playtest that Craig ran the Paizo team through, it seemed that the characters the staff designed were ... um ... broader than the PC's I typically see at a gaming table. Imperious Asmodean priest. Flensing knives.

Likewise, when people are posting their PC concepts in another thread, I see a lot of ... spotlight characters. The druid with two feral halflings on leashes. The not-quite-Lawful-Evil chain-weilder.

Not so much "Militia veteran. Previous to that, turnip farmer."

More Seltyiel; less Valeros.

My experience with organized play is limited, mostly Living Arcanis, but that seems unusual. Most of the beginning characters I've seen have been more loosely defined, to make it easier for the player to accomodate whatever opportunities come the character's way.

Your opinions?


Chris Mortika wrote:
The druid with two feral halflings on leashes.

Errr, obviously I need to read that thread a bit more carefully.

You're going to see an odd cross-section of players and characters. If anything strikes you as too bizarre, call over the coordinators to make a ruling. EDIT: Keeping in mind, however, that we're not in the business of vetting character concepts.

There is a lot of advice in this thread, but there is also a lot of advice about things that we're not going to do or thing that we're going to do differently. I'd ask everyone to please be patient with us and pause the advice cannons until after we release the PFS PG and GMG.


I should also note that its the responsibility of each player to create a character concept that (a) makes sense within the boundaries of the in-game Pathfinder Society (the "I hate the Pathfinders, so I infiltrated them" concept, for example, doesn't *really* make sense) and (b) isn't so totally disruptive as to defeat the purpose of getting along with other Pathfinders in order to accomplish tasks together. (Remember: no EVIL alignments.)

With the ... interesting ... druid and two slaves group you mentioned (which would be played by three characters), serious conflicts could arise if they were sat with an Andoren Freedom Fighter. During marshaling, you'll generally move people around so that various groups don't implode because of opposing character traits. Sometimes, though, players and GMs may just have to focus on the scenario itself, get it done, and move on.

Granted, we want people to have *fun* and if someone's concept is so disruptive as to be *not fun* we'll probably ask them to make a few changes.

We do not want to be in the business of vetting characters (and we won't) but we'll hope people will take the advice in the upcoming PFS PG to heart and make characters that, while they may be unique, odd, or outright weird, still have sensible reasons to want to be a Pathfinder. Pathfinders have a general code: Explore, Report, and Cooperate. We expect our players to follow that code, too. :-)

Dark Archive

Dragnmoon wrote:
Ehh just Pencil Whip it..... American here..;-)

No, no. Give it to the secretary or their temp to take of it. (American here, too ;-)


And the Pathfinder Societzy being the reason everyone adventures together?

So a Mr. Johnson will point a group of pathfinders in the right direction?

I think these questions have relevance for organized play, since it *can* be a pain to get the group together, espcially when people love the "brooding loner"/Aragon-Archtype i have seen rather often at conventions.

Made me use pre-gen characters for my scenarios, but in organized play that isn't feasible.

Dark Archive

Chris Mortika wrote:

Question for the veterans.

Likewise, when people are posting their PC concepts in another thread, I see a lot of ... spotlight characters. The druid with two feral halflings on leashes. The not-quite-Lawful-Evil chain-weilder.

Not so much "Militia veteran. Previous to that, turnip farmer."

Your opinions?

As the guy with the spike chain fighter. I can say the majority of players will be pretty standard. The ventrans will either play total combat twink characters or concept characters. In the end the demographics will balance out.

I remeber from Living City (aka Living Silly) there were necromancers with cranial drills and other autopsy/surguical equipment, but they still fit the alignment requirements.

When I came up with my concept I used what information that was available. From the PFS faction listing, to the Religion mythos of the god I will follow to Pathfinder Chronicles setting for a Chelaxian loyal nation. I then was able to realize that I could play the spike chain fighter I have wanted to play for a long time.

My advice is to figure out what you want to play and add a little twist to it, form nationality to viewpoints about one's actions. Just remember that the character must follow the rules of the system.


Dragnmoon wrote:
Russell Akred wrote:

From the posts I see here I must add a couple of things.

DM: Unless you can line up another GM (or judge) then your table limit is 6 players. After that you have to turn them away or organize a later game. If your table only gets 3 or less players then you cannot run it.

Hey GenCOn UK people...is this true for that event also?.. Mostly the 3 player part..

Seems to me a game can be run with only 3 players..

Its up to individual campaigns to have their own rules about how many people make a legal table. If Paizo want to allow 3 or 7 player tables its entirely up to them. The only rule I have is don't be selfish - if a particular game only allows a minimum of 4 players per table and I have a group of five who don't want to split and three other players I will be asking one of the five to move so that two tables can play.

Kithran
Gen Con UK Senior GM

Grand Lodge 3/5

Chris Mortika wrote:

When I read the Paizo Blog about the Origins Pathfinder playtest that Craig ran the Paizo team through, it seemed that the characters the staff designed were ... um ... broader than the PC's I typically see at a gaming table. Imperious Asmodean priest. Flensing knives.

As the unofficial "fly on the wall"/DM's monkey, I thought I would comment. Especially as I may have given the wrong impression before.

1/ This was a Playtest. One of the bugs to be worked out is character guidelines.

2/ I actually found that the 2 PC's referenced did a very good job of having some negative personality traits (imperious, death-obsessed) without being Evil. The Osirion was gruesome, but in a way that made sense given his cultural background, and the Cheliaxan was obnoxious (and an Asmodean) but never did anything more evil than berating a servant.

3/ Of the 6 characters, most were fairly standard; just well thought out and rp'd with a few non-standard personality quirks. The actual rule builds were fairly standard, from what I saw.

4/ Most of us won't have to run a table with Mona, Frost, Logue, Self and Bulmahn.

Sovereign Court 1/5 Contributor

Scribbling Rambler wrote:
4/ Most of us won't have to run a table with Mona, Frost, Logue, Self and Bulmahn.

And I'm not sure whether to tell you to be relieved or disappointed by that! They were certainly a challenging group and running for them was an intimidating prospect, but at the same time, it was such a fun session. I probably let some of the role-play go on longer than I should, just because it was so cool to watch, but then they were also a crack team of goal-achievers so they got through the encounters pretty smartly.

I have to say, given the characters and the way things went, I don't foresee a big problem in terms of intra-party conflict either due to the faction goals or the character guidelines.

Craig Shackleton,
The Rambling Scribe

Contributor

Joshua J. Frost wrote:

I should also note that its the responsibility of each player to create a character concept that (a) makes sense within the boundaries of the in-game Pathfinder Society (the "I hate the Pathfinders, so I infiltrated them" concept, for example, doesn't *really* make sense) and (b) isn't so totally disruptive as to defeat the purpose of getting along with other Pathfinders in order to accomplish tasks together. (Remember: no EVIL alignments.)...

We do not want to be in the business of vetting characters (and we won't) but we'll hope people will take the advice in the upcoming PFS PG to heart and make characters that, while they may be unique, odd, or outright weird, still have sensible reasons to want to be a Pathfinder. Pathfinders have a general code: Explore, Report, and Cooperate. We expect our players to follow that code, too. :-)

Word! Explore, Report, COOPERATE! Bold for emphasis! The game is most fun when we are working against common foes really, not each other. I love a little (and even a LOT) of petty bickering, for RPG sake, but really, when it progresses beyond mere talk, it ceases to be fun for everyone (except bullies).

Make weird characters, but make sure they can fit into a team of Pathfinders when assigned a mission without feeling the need to murder or push around the rest of the team! Rock!

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