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I want to like the Pathfinder Barbarian, but....


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

But I don't. I really hate it. It is a little package of cool and awesome, bound up in an overly complicated format that feels so restrictive I've avoided any attempt to use one in game. It is seriously the first time that rules intimidated me away from something.

It also leads to nova syndrome, making the barbarian just a fighter with more hp and less feats after she exhausts all of her rage points in a single extended encounter. There was a thread on one of these forums, something about eliminating the five minute adventuring day?

I think the biggest thing is tying both the duration of the rage and the cool new 'rage powers' to a single mechanic. It means that the barbarian using her powers actually sacrifices her ability to be relevant in later fights.

And I honestly don't know how to fix it. I've seen some other fixes on the boards, but they all seem to be just as complicated as the original. It isn't a balance issue that I have, it is a 'fun to play' issue.

I think I'd go with putting rage powers at will within a rage. And only allowing one to be utilized per round at a time. I don't know if I'd go with rage points or rages per day though. And I don't know how balanced at will rage powers would be.

I just know I don't like barbarians anymore.


Kain Darkwind wrote:
It also leads to nova syndrome, making the barbarian just a fighter with more hp and less feats after she exhausts all of her rage points in a single extended encounter. There was a thread on one of these forums, something about eliminating the five minute adventuring day?

Er...a 3.5 barbarian only gets to rage once a day up until level 3 and twice a day up until level 7, so doesn't the Pathfinder barbarian have to worry less about "going nova" than in 3.5?


My friend, I would suggest you do exactly what you have been avoiding:

Roll one up, and play one. Make a play test against some monsters, against some doors, walls and such, and see how it works out.

Use poker chips for rage counters and just see how it goes.

I'm not saying it'll change your mind- but it might.

An index card-per-ability describing what they do and at what cost, and poker chips to keep track of it, so far has made the Barbarian very very easy to work with while giving them the ability to knock the occasional door down without sacrificing 20-30% of their rage time.

-S


Selgard wrote:

My friend, I would suggest you do exactly what you have been avoiding:...

An index card-per-ability describing what they do and at what cost, and poker chips to keep track of it, so far has made the Barbarian very very easy to work with while giving them the ability to knock the occasional door down without sacrificing 20-30% of their rage time.

I'm with Selgard here, this is what the barbarian player in our group has been doing and it's a lot simpler and more fun that x rages/ day x rounds then exhausted. If you are a player thinking about it then start out just using rage alone without the powers and see how many rage points you have at the end of the day. Then you can plan for how many rage points to spend on powers. At low levels its not a lot but once you get a little higher level you can do quite a bit.

Don't knock it til you try it.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Selgard wrote:
An index card-per-ability describing what they do and at what cost, and poker chips to keep track of it, so far has made the Barbarian very very easy to work with while giving them the ability to knock the occasional door down without sacrificing 20-30% of their rage time.

Poker chips work right up until your the DM and you're pitting a high-level party against twenty raging orc barbarians. Without rage points, all you have to track is the round in which all twenty orc barbarians come out of rage. With rage points, you're going to need one heck of a lot of poker chips.


Epic Meepo wrote:
Poker chips work right up until your the DM and you're pitting a high-level party against twenty raging orc barbarians. Without rage points, all you have to track is the round in which all twenty orc barbarians come out of rage. With rage points, you're going to need one heck of a lot of poker chips.

I don't really understand how you can track the hit points of twenty orc barbarians but not their rage points.

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Cards, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kain Darkwind wrote:
I think the biggest thing is tying both the duration of the rage and the cool new 'rage powers' to a single mechanic. It means that the barbarian using her powers actually sacrifices her ability to be relevant in later fights.

A 3.5 Barbarian who uses her rage powers 'sacrifices her ability to be relevant in later fights'.

And does so to a far greater degree.

Most combats don't last as long as the typical 3.5 rage, leaving the player feeling he has wasted his juice for the day.

With regard to the other uses of rage points, I think it will mean we finally get to see Barbarian PCs doing actual feats of strength, which they just don't do in 3.5.

DMs set up traps and challenges, in the knowledge that there is a Barbarian in the party with the strength to break free, and with the expectation that they will rage to do it. But they don't, because that will be 100%/50%/33%/25%/20% (take your pick) of their iconic combat ability 'wasted' if they use it to lift a portcullis or such. So they don't, and it takes for ever to get out, leaving the players cursing the 'killer DM', and the player of the Barbarian feeling they are being targetted and nerfed by a DM who is jealous of them using their class ability in actual combat against his precious DMPCs. "If you don't want me to use rage, why don't you say so, and I'll retire this PC?".


Epic Meepo wrote:
Poker chips work right up until your the DM and you're pitting a high-level party against twenty raging orc barbarians.

It's easy enough. Have them rage at their highest level the entire combat, let them each use 1 or 2 rage powers per combat. They will be almost certainly be dead at the end of the encounter so it's not like you need to worry how many rage points they will have at the end of the day.

NPCs don't need to be as complex as PCs, they are designed to be disposable.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Having played and dmed both the old and new barbarian I have to say the new system works so much better. With rage points I find that the barbarian is much more versitile than the old per/day mechanic. Also the new rage actually means your actually going to have the barbarian raging in more fights when in the past you either blew all your par day rages in the first few encounters or just not using them since you wanted to save them for the BBEG.

Probably sound like a broken reacord but I strongly suggest you give the new barbarian a whirl before dismising it.

Andoran

ok i haven't played the new barbarian, but actually liked it.

its partially because i found the versatility so interesting. This is because i have also been read Iron Heroes, which uses similar methods in some classes and in other none at all, giving you the chance to select a no-complication class, or one with a bit more of tracking as a player.

Also, it recommends that NPCs being a bit less complex... as someone mentioned... they are supposed to be expendable after all.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Snorter wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
I think the biggest thing is tying both the duration of the rage and the cool new 'rage powers' to a single mechanic. It means that the barbarian using her powers actually sacrifices her ability to be relevant in later fights.

A 3.5 Barbarian who uses her rage powers 'sacrifices her ability to be relevant in later fights'.

And does so to a far greater degree.

Um, a 3.5 barbarian doesn't have 'rage powers'. I'm talking about the rage powers coming at the expense of the rage duration. And yes, I realize that with rages per day, a barbarian doesn't know whether or not they should rage this encounter. If this was 4e, I'd suggest making rage be an encounter power to begin with.

However, I will run one during my Friday game within the next month, based on all the 'don't knock it til..' comments I've had. I just know that it looks as intimidating as all hell to run right now.

The formula for rage points is (HD + 1)(2 + Con mod) right?


Kain Darkwind wrote:
Um, a 3.5 barbarian doesn't have 'rage powers'. I'm talking about the rage powers coming at the expense of the rage duration. And yes, I realize that with rages per day, a barbarian doesn't know whether or not they should rage this encounter. If this was 4e, I'd suggest making rage be an encounter power to begin with.

I certainly agree that there could be a simpler way of doing things. It just seemed like you were saying that the new Pathfinder barbarian would run out of abilities faster than a 3.5 barbarian when you said "It also leads to nova syndrome [..]" -- the barbarian has always been about "going nova"; that's hardly a change!

My take is that most of the rage powers are pretty useless and/or overpriced, so I ignore them, for the most part.


me like pathfinder barbarian... me one


Stilgar wrote:
me like pathfinder barbarian... me one

Classic :-)

I thought the shear number of options would be intimidating for my barbarian player, but it actually works better for him.

under the old system you had to count rounds until your rage ended, now you just count points. not a huge difference in mechanics, yet he seems to count his points much more reliable than he used to count down his rounds.


tracking X number of orc barbarian NPC's is easy.

Assume they are each using the highest level of "rage" they posssess, every round.

Have them each decided to either 1) not use an ability or 2) use One or two that you have prepared.

Then each round, it's no more difficult than anything else.

Unless combat turns into an ungodly lengthy affair- they have enough rage to do whatever for the 1 encounter they are on this earth, and then you crumple them up on the scratch sheet that used to be their home, and toss 'em into the trash.

NPC rage points are easy to manage because you don't Manage them. THere is no "what about the next encounter"? They do their best the 1 encounter they exist, and then they go away. So you can make some basic assumptions during combat- such as that they are "raging" the best they can for each round.

-S


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
hogarth wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
Um, a 3.5 barbarian doesn't have 'rage powers'. I'm talking about the rage powers coming at the expense of the rage duration. And yes, I realize that with rages per day, a barbarian doesn't know whether or not they should rage this encounter. If this was 4e, I'd suggest making rage be an encounter power to begin with.

I certainly agree that there could be a simpler way of doing things. It just seemed like you were saying that the new Pathfinder barbarian would run out of abilities faster than a 3.5 barbarian when you said "It also leads to nova syndrome [..]" -- the barbarian has always been about "going nova"; that's hardly a change!

My take is that most of the rage powers are pretty useless and/or overpriced, so I ignore them, for the most part.

Ok, let me explain that.

In 3.5, a 10th level barbarian has 3 rages per day and they last 5 + base Con modifier rounds. Let's assume that the barbarian at this level has 16 Con, not unreasonable. That means he has 3 rages which last for 8 rounds.

So, he gets in a fight and uses a rage. He has two left over.

Now, the Pathfinder 10th level barbarian (with 16 Con) has 52 rage points. She also has 5 rage powers.

Let's go with Guarded Stance, Animal Fury, Powerful Blow, Knockback and Mighty Swing.

Now, at first glance, the barbarian has 52 rounds of rage, compared to the 24 rounds of the 3.5 barbarian. I'm a fan of the system this far. Not only does this allow the barbarian to rage more, it also allows her to rage when appropriate, instead of 'wasting' rounds because you can't turn it off.

But, once you start fighting, you begin sucking up not 1 rage point per round, but 3, 5 or even 9 points per round. Assuming a basic rage power is used every round, like Animal Fury, the rage duration per day has been cut to 17 rounds. And what does Animal Fury give you? A bite attack that is weaker than any weapon a barbarian wields in her hand.

So a barbarian could easily blow through all of her rage points in under 6 rounds if she put her mind to it, and even 10 rounds isn't unthinkable.

That's what I mean by nova-ing. The 3.5 barbarian will at least get 3 encounters worth of rage at 10th level. The Pathfinder barbarian might only get 1.


Kain Darkwind wrote:

But, once you start fighting, you begin sucking up not 1 rage point per round, but 3, 5 or even 9 points per round. Assuming a basic rage power is used every round, like Animal Fury, the rage duration per day has been cut to 17 rounds. And what does Animal Fury give you? A bite attack that is weaker than any weapon a barbarian wields in her hand.

So a barbarian could easily blow through all of her rage points in under 6 rounds if she put her mind to it, and even 10 rounds isn't unthinkable.

But using a rage power every round is a terrible strategy. That's like saying that a 3.5 Barbarian could rage to get a +2 bonus on a Jump check and then later rage to get a +2 on a Climb check. So you could use two rage attempts to get two rounds' worth of petty bonuses, but why would you? Similarly, why would you keep using Animal Fury (say) when you don't have many rage points left? If someone really, really wanted to use up all of their rage points on various trivial things, let 'em.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
hogarth wrote:
But using a rage power every round is a terrible strategy. That's like saying that a 3.5 Barbarian could rage to get a +2 bonus on a Jump check and then later rage to get a +2 on a Climb check. So you could use two rage attempts to get two rounds' worth of petty bonuses, but why would you? Similarly, why would you keep using Animal Fury (say) when you don't have many rage points left? If someone really, really wanted to use up all of their rage points on various trivial things, let 'em.

It may be a terrible strategy and I certainly have no attachment to saving bad players from themselves. What I am trying to get at is that I like the rage powers (except incredibly weak ones like Animal Fury) but the way the system is built, it punishes you for using them. You may add +1/2 Barb level to damage for a hit that round, but in exchange, you aren't going to be capable of raging in the boss battle.

It is like they fixed the 'not enough rage' issue and then added something else to the mix to ensure that it remained an issue.

Now that this thread has forced me to look at it more closely, I think I'd retain the rage points, but remove the rage point cost from the rage powers, just make them swift actions so you can only do one per round of rage. For the more powerful ones, give them a cool down period, like 1d4 or 1d8 rounds.

Qadira

Kain Darkwind wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
Um, a 3.5 barbarian doesn't have 'rage powers'. I'm talking about the rage powers coming at the expense of the rage duration. And yes, I realize that with rages per day, a barbarian doesn't know whether or not they should rage this encounter. If this was 4e, I'd suggest making rage be an encounter power to begin with.

I certainly agree that there could be a simpler way of doing things. It just seemed like you were saying that the new Pathfinder barbarian would run out of abilities faster than a 3.5 barbarian when you said "It also leads to nova syndrome [..]" -- the barbarian has always been about "going nova"; that's hardly a change!

My take is that most of the rage powers are pretty useless and/or overpriced, so I ignore them, for the most part.

Ok, let me explain that.

In 3.5, a 10th level barbarian has 3 rages per day and they last 5 + base Con modifier rounds. Let's assume that the barbarian at this level has 16 Con, not unreasonable. That means he has 3 rages which last for 8 rounds.

So, he gets in a fight and uses a rage. He has two left over.

Now, the Pathfinder 10th level barbarian (with 16 Con) has 52 rage points. She also has 5 rage powers.

Let's go with Guarded Stance, Animal Fury, Powerful Blow, Knockback and Mighty Swing.

Now, at first glance, the barbarian has 52 rounds of rage, compared to the 24 rounds of the 3.5 barbarian. I'm a fan of the system this far. Not only does this allow the barbarian to rage more, it also allows her to rage when appropriate, instead of 'wasting' rounds because you can't turn it off.

But, once you start fighting, you begin sucking up not 1 rage point per round, but 3, 5 or even 9 points per round. Assuming a basic rage power is used every round, like Animal Fury, the rage duration per day has been cut to 17 rounds. And what does Animal Fury give you? A bite attack that is weaker than any weapon a barbarian wields in her hand.

So a barbarian could easily blow...

Wow. That's WAY more difficult than tracking spells and spell DCs like a wizard! Oh wait. No it isn't......

A little bit of added complexity for some fighting classes is fine since they don't have any real maintenance/tracking issues. So you have to track a few rage points? So what? At least you don't have to keep a tally of how many spells at what level with DCs, specialty schools, metamagics and other nonsense that a wizard especially has to deal with. By comparison a Pathfinder Barbarian is simple to run. "This power costs 3 rage points to use......56-3=..um......MATH HARD, ME SMASH!!!! "


Kain Darkwind wrote:


It may be a terrible strategy and I certainly have no attachment to saving bad players from themselves. What I am trying to get at is that I like the rage powers (except incredibly weak ones like Animal Fury) but the way the system is built, it punishes you for using them.

O.K. -- now I'm in complete agreement with you. :-)

In my opinion, most of the powers should either be cheaper (possibly free, as you suggest) or made more powerful. Some of the costs are just nuts: 8 points for 1d6 acid damage? 12 points for DR 3/--? 6 points for 1d8+Con healing?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
False Healer wrote:

Wow. That's WAY more difficult than tracking spells and spell DCs like a wizard! Oh wait. No it isn't......

A little bit of added complexity for some fighting classes is fine since they don't have any real maintenance/tracking issues. So you have to track a few rage points? So what? At least you don't have to keep a tally of how many spells at what level with DCs, specialty schools, metamagics and other nonsense that a wizard especially has to deal with. By comparison a Pathfinder Barbarian is simple to run. "This power costs 3 rage points to use......56-3=..um......MATH HARD, ME SMASH!!!! "

That's nice. You don't have a problem. This isn't about you not having a problem, it is about me having one. Telling me that the problem doesn't exist doesn't actually help...anything.

Qadira

hogarth wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:


It may be a terrible strategy and I certainly have no attachment to saving bad players from themselves. What I am trying to get at is that I like the rage powers (except incredibly weak ones like Animal Fury) but the way the system is built, it punishes you for using them.

O.K. -- now I'm in complete agreement with you. :-)

In my opinion, most of the powers should either be cheaper (possibly free, as you suggest) or made more powerful. Some of the costs are just nuts: 8 points for 1d6 acid damage? 12 points for DR 3/--? 6 points for 1d8+Con healing?

Every time you rage you add +2 to hit and damage and +2 hit points per level at a cost of -2 AC and fatigue (although that rarely is relevant). That isn't a huge gain with the full rage. If I can add 1d6 to each attack at 12th level (3d6 total without haste or any other added attacks) for roughly 11 added damage that isn't a bad trade. Six rounds of rage is cheaper in the long run and better over time to use but sometimes you just need to do the extra damage in one round to down a dangerous foe.

A 2-weapon fighting Barb with the right feats can probably double the D6's he would do in one round with the Elemental Rage ability without haste. Doesn't seem like a bad payout to me at all.


Kain Darkwind wrote:
False Healer wrote:
"This power costs 3 rage points to use......56-3=..um......MATH HARD, ME SMASH!!!! "
That's nice. You don't have a problem. This isn't about you not having a problem, it is about me having one. Telling me that the problem doesn't exist doesn't actually help...anything.

Ok maybe False Healer could have been more diplomatic. What I do, for both rage points and hitpoints is I count up from 0 to my Rage point/hitpoint total. I find doing additions slightly quicker than subtraction. I haven't DM'd a large group of high level Barbarians, but if I did I'd probably just spam a few common powers to simplify book keeping.

Qadira

Juton wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:


That's nice. You don't have a problem. This isn't about you not having a problem, it is about me having one. Telling me that the problem doesn't exist doesn't actually help...anything.
Ok maybe False Healer could have been more diplomatic.....

I could have but where's the fun in that! Also for the record, pointing out that there isn't a problem with something is actually a very good solution to a complaint, especially when the complaint sounded like a whine-fest (dang, failed another diplomacy check!). Whether or not it is accepted is up to the receiver of that info. If the recipient refuses to acknowledge that there may not be a problem that is his/her right but I just gave my opinion when asked.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Fake Healer wrote:
Juton wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:


That's nice. You don't have a problem. This isn't about you not having a problem, it is about me having one. Telling me that the problem doesn't exist doesn't actually help...anything.
Ok maybe False Healer could have been more diplomatic.....
I could have but where's the fun in that! Also for the record, pointing out that there isn't a problem with something is actually a very good solution to a complaint, especially when the complaint sounded like a whine-fest (dang, failed another diplomacy check!). Whether or not it is accepted is up to the receiver of that info. If the recipient refuses to acknowledge that there may not be a problem that is his/her right but I just gave my opinion when asked.

Except you weren't asked for an opinion, you were asked for help. If you like being useless, no doubt you will make a fine career out of it someday.

Last I checked, these boards were for the playtest. Which is where you discuss problems and solutions. I have a problem. You clearly have no solution, so why are you running your mouth?

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

hogarth wrote:
I don't really understand how you can track the hit points of twenty orc barbarians but not their rage points.

I have no problem tracking either. But someone suggested upthread that people who don't like bookkeeping rage points should just use poker chips. And I'm saying that using poker chips becomes untenable in large combats, because you simply won't have that many poker chips. From what I can tell, the "just use poker chips" argument doesn't seem to be addressing the concerns of the crowd that wants less bookkeeping.

Selgard wrote:
Unless combat turns into an ungodly lengthy affair- they have enough rage to do whatever for the 1 encounter they are on this earth...

I haven't run a high-level fight in months that hasn't turned into an ungodly lenghty affair. Either that or a one-round victory for the PCs.

Selgard wrote:
NPC rage points are easy to manage because you don't Manage them. THere is no "what about the next encounter"? They do their best the 1 encounter they exist, and then they go away. So you can make some basic assumptions during combat- such as that they are "raging" the best they can for each round.

But a high-level barbarian has lots of rage powers to choose from, each of which has different costs. So which is supposed to constitute the "best rage" from round to round? And what if five NPC barabrians want to do something different than the other fifteen? In my experience, high-level fights last long enough that NPCs are going to run out of things like rage points. And the difference between one and two rounds of mighty rage can often make the difference between easy PC victory and having to bring someone back from the dead. YMMV, of course.


For myself, I see no problems with the new barbarian, but thats because I see all the "extra" rage points (in terms of raw ability to rage for x rounds/day) as being the fuel for rage powers.

Glass half empty, because I now have a bigger glass and I'm putting some of my juice into a second one.

If I can rage twice as long as a 3.5 barbarian due to number of rage points, and the whole point is comparison to a 3.5 barbarian, I can't really see the logic in the argument that rage powers punish you for using them. You have extra relative to a 3.5 barbarian, so that you CAN use them. If the PFRP Barb was designed with roughly the same number of rage rounds/day as the 3.5, and then rage powers were added, I'd cry foul just like the OP. As it is, my resources have both doubled in size, and exponentially increased in flexibility (due to a per round mechanic), which means my net resource gain could easily be considered to be triple or quadruple my previous state. And now you give me cool powers I can use with these extra resources. Win/win.

I guess, I'm trying to say that while I agree that FakeHealer could have been more diplomatic about it, I also agree with his point. I don't see the actual problem with the system that the OP is having. This is not to say the OP's problem isn't legitimate, but that maybe the problem the OP has with the system isn't the system itself, but the OP's interpretation of the reasoning behind the system. I'm not trying to poke fun, or call offense, or anything. This is just my interpretation of the PFRPG Barbarian, realtive to the 3.5 Barbarian, in the context of the OP's origional and subsequent posts.

Just my 2cp.


Kain Darkwind wrote:
It may be a terrible strategy and I certainly have no attachment to saving bad players from themselves. What I am trying to get at is that I like the rage powers (except incredibly weak ones like Animal Fury) but the way the system is built, it punishes you for using them. You may add +1/2 Barb level to damage for a hit that round, but in exchange, you aren't going to be capable of raging in the boss battle.

If you think of rage powers as something that needs to be used in every combat then you are more or less correct. I think of rage powers as something that are there for situational benefits. For example:

The much abused Animal Fury sucks as any sort of primary attack but for 2 rage points it gives you an effective way to deal damage during a grapple and a bonus to grappling... So during any given round it sucks but during a grapple it's great.

Clear Mind -- Reroll a failed will save versus 6 rounds of rage? That's a bargain considering a failed will save could easily put you out of combat for the encounter or even turn you against your allies.

Increased damage reduction: eh maybe not great on a normal attack but if an attack is poisonous it can prevent any damage and avoid the issues with poison.

Elemental Rage: Mostly sucks but but acid or fire against a troll, or cold against a red dragon?

Knockback: Kick someone over a cliff, off a bridge or just back 5' so he no longer threatens the party wizard.

Mighty swing: Auto confirm a crit? Expensive but pretty nice if you crit something with a high AC or with damage reduction.

Swift foot: You've never wanted to be able to turbo sprint across the battlefield to avoid getting peppered by archers or to catch the BBEG about to escape?

Renewed Vigor Use this just before your rage ends to avoid going unconscious or dying post rage.

The rage powers suck eggs for round by round use but really shine if you save them for the right situation. Just to be choosy about when you use the powers and make them count.

From the DM's chair it's even more fun. Having the enemy barbarians sprinting across the battlefield covering 100' in a charge? NPC barbarians shaking off spells with high DC will saves?

Qadira

The Black Bard wrote:
For myself, I see no problems with the new barbarian, .....

Watch it the OP will declare you to be useless with that thought in your head.

HE has a problem and wants it fixed, whether anyone else has one or not, so don't point out that there isn't a problem....
If he wants to imagine problems to fix without playtesting, then claim to be helping with playtesting the game, let him. Sounds like a useless move to me but what do I know?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Fake Healer wrote:
The Black Bard wrote:
For myself, I see no problems with the new barbarian, .....

Watch it the OP will declare you to be useless with that thought in your head.

HE has a problem and wants it fixed, whether anyone else has one or not, so don't point out that there isn't a problem....
If he wants to imagine problems to fix without playtesting, then claim to be helping with playtesting the game, let him. Sounds like a useless move to me but what do I know?

I'm sort of new around here, so maybe you are a stupid troll everywhere you go. If that's the case, I apologize in advance for not being aware and just ignoring your worthless words. However, your useless drivel on this thread has been only illuminating in showing what poor wit, charm and class you have.

Shockingly, many of your fellow posters have provided useful information, advice and convinced me to reevaluate my original position after more experience with the mechanics. You on the other hand, are simply being a snottard, no doubt due to the lack of good parenting or violent video games as a child. Stop sniveling simply because you didn't like the fact that I found your answer useless. You clearly have absolutely nothing to add to this thread, probably nothing to add to the world in general other than sucking valuable oxygen and converting it into greenhouse gases. There's nothing you can do about the oxygen, but you can stop adding to this thread. Rise above your poor breeding and choose to do so.

Qadira

Kain Darkwind wrote:

Except you weren't asked for an opinion, you were asked for help. If you like being useless, no doubt you will make a fine career out of it someday.

Last I checked, these boards were for the playtest. Which is where you discuss problems and solutions. I have a problem.

Yeah, you do. When you playtest something and decide it is lacking then you could be helpful with posting a problem you have. Without playtesting you are just guessing and of course you are self-important enough to believe that your 'guess' has more weight than an actual playtest. So you are helping these boards? How? You aren't playtesting, you are just 'running your mouth' and making up pretend problems. Let's check and see who would be the more useless one.....

Kain Darkwind wrote:
You clearly have no solution, so why are you running your mouth?

I gave a solution. You didn't like it. I am 'running my mouth', as you put it, because you are offering up a rules problem without testing the rules. That is counterproductive to the playtesting process. Especially when you 'run your mouth' about how bad the Barbarian class is because of it. If Jason B. decided to heed your thoughts and produced a messy product on the assumption that you actually tested out your 'problem' then I have a compromised product.

So why are you running your mouth?

Qadira

Kain Darkwind wrote:
Fake Healer wrote:
The Black Bard wrote:
For myself, I see no problems with the new barbarian, .....

Watch it the OP will declare you to be useless with that thought in your head.

HE has a problem and wants it fixed, whether anyone else has one or not, so don't point out that there isn't a problem....
If he wants to imagine problems to fix without playtesting, then claim to be helping with playtesting the game, let him. Sounds like a useless move to me but what do I know?

I'm sort of new around here, so maybe you are a stupid troll everywhere you go. If that's the case, I apologize in advance for not being aware and just ignoring your worthless words. However, your useless drivel on this thread has been only illuminating in showing what poor wit, charm and class you have.

Shockingly, many of your fellow posters have provided useful information, advice and convinced me to reevaluate my original position after more experience with the mechanics. You on the other hand, are simply being a snottard, no doubt due to the lack of good parenting or violent video games as a child. Stop sniveling simply because you didn't like the fact that I found your answer useless. You clearly have absolutely nothing to add to this thread, probably nothing to add to the world in general other than sucking valuable oxygen and converting it into greenhouse gases. There's nothing you can do about the oxygen, but you can stop adding to this thread. Rise above your poor breeding and choose to do so.

And now with the personal attacks. Good job.


I like the concept, but I think it's made a little bit more complicated (in a messy, fiddly sense) than necessary. Essentially, you get to make a tradeoff between raging long and raging hard. That's excellent, IMO. The fiddly bit is where all these variations on raging hard come in: there's too many, and some aren't worth it, and it's another list of abilities a character has to "unlock" that he should probably just get all at once (or at least grouped) to be plausible. I'd prefer a somewhat reduced number of rage powers which the character simply gets at certain levels, rather than has to pick. But as I said, the essential idea is great IMO.

Paizo Employee PostMonster General

Kain Darkwind wrote:

I'm sort of new around here, so maybe you are a stupid troll everywhere you go. If that's the case, I apologize in advance for not being aware and just ignoring your worthless words. However, your useless drivel on this thread has been only illuminating in showing what poor wit, charm and class you have.

Shockingly, many of your fellow posters have provided useful information, advice and convinced me to reevaluate my original position after more experience with the mechanics. You on the other hand, are simply being a snottard, no doubt due to the lack of good parenting or violent video games as a child. Stop sniveling simply because you didn't like the fact that I found your answer useless. You clearly have absolutely nothing to add to this thread, probably nothing to add to the world in general other than sucking valuable oxygen and converting it into greenhouse gases. There's nothing you can do about the oxygen, but you can stop adding to this thread. Rise above your poor breeding and choose to do so.

Kain, we're not actively moderating this forum as we do the 4th edition forum, so I won't delete your post. Fakey could have been more polite, sure, and I think he knows it. But please understand that this kind of personal attack has no place on our messageboards.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gary Teter wrote:
Kain, we're not actively moderating this forum as we do the 4th edition forum, so I won't delete your post. Fakey could have been more polite, sure, and I think he knows it. But please understand that this kind of personal attack has no place on our messageboards.

Well, that's unfortunate, since bad behavior shouldn't be tolerated at all, even mine. We don't have the option to 'take it to PMs' either, I notice, so I guess this little discussion will have to be public, unless you'd like to email me on the matter.

Spell it right out for me, because I'd like to be a valued member of the community, not just some fringe lunatic. Does trolling have a place on the message boards? Can one continue to hound on the same tired and merit-lacking points over and over, abusing the very concept of free speech? No doubt a personal attack is off limits. Are sniping and petty jabs likewise considered the same type of poor behavior? Or is one merely reduced in options to ignoring drooling slackjaws when they slobber all over otherwise useful threads?

Osirion

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

I have to say I don't think Fake's posts were very helpful either. I get tired of seeing so many "don't come here unless you've playtested it" first posts. As if we can't theorize on things here just as much as we can talk about having playtested them.

Neither of their comments should be tolerated, imo.


Fake Healer wrote:
And now with the personal attacks. Good job.

While I agree that Kain's message was a bit harsh maybe you should look back at the sarcasm and condescension in the message he was replying to. Not exactly the stuff of polite discourse.

You know this board is one of the friendliest and least confrontational ones on the internet, I find it refreshing. Can we please keep it that way?


Kain Darkwind wrote:
Or is one merely reduced in options to ignoring drooling slackjaws when they slobber all over otherwise useful threads?

Considering that's a really good option, I don't think that's a problem.

In other news, "free speech" doesn't apply here - the concept can't really be abused as such.

Also, you're both knuckleheads. And pompous too. ;-)


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Pangur Bàn wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
Or is one merely reduced in options to ignoring drooling slackjaws when they slobber all over otherwise useful threads?
Considering that's a really good option, I don't think that's a problem.

No doubt, one of the best. I was merely hoping it wasn't the only.

Pangur Ban wrote:
In other news, "free speech" doesn't apply here - the concept can't really be abused as such.

If one is free to speak, as they clearly are here to some extent, there is a freedom of speech and concept of such. It need not be the same one in your American Constitution.

Pangur Ban wrote:
Also, you're both knuckleheads. And pompous too. ;-)

So explain to me how your personal attack is merited, FH's merely 'undiplomatic' and mine is a violation of the rules. Please, I'm not being sarcastic here. Is it the wink? If I wink at someone and say they are stupid does it not count as violation? I'm fairly certain your wink didn't intend that you didn't mean the comments. Were I a neutral third party viewing this, no doubt I'd be shaking my head at two nerds getting all hyped up over some dork hobby. Probably consider them knuckleheads. Possibly even pompous ones. So let me know. How is your personal attack ok and where does it differ from mine in that regard?

Qadira

Kain Darkwind wrote:
Pangur Bàn wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
Or is one merely reduced in options to ignoring drooling slackjaws when they slobber all over otherwise useful threads?
Considering that's a really good option, I don't think that's a problem.

No doubt, one of the best. I was merely hoping it wasn't the only.

Pangur Ban wrote:
In other news, "free speech" doesn't apply here - the concept can't really be abused as such.

If one is free to speak, as they clearly are here to some extent, there is a freedom of speech and concept of such. It need not be the same one in your American Constitution.

Pangur Ban wrote:
Also, you're both knuckleheads. And pompous too. ;-)
So explain to me how your personal attack is merited, FH's merely 'undiplomatic' and mine is a violation of the rules. Please, I'm not being sarcastic here. Is it the wink? If I wink at someone and say they are stupid does it not count as violation? I'm fairly certain your wink didn't intend that you didn't mean the comments. Were I a neutral third party viewing this, no doubt I'd be shaking my head at two nerds getting all hyped up over some dork hobby. Probably consider them knuckleheads. Possibly even pompous ones. So let me know. How is your personal attack ok and where does it differ from mine in that regard?

I would like to see where I called you a name of some sort. Sure I was snarky in my first post, which was more levity than anything, and when I responded to your barbs I did escalate my responses, but at no time did I ever personally attack you or call you a name. You however have stated that if I "like being useless, no doubt you will make a fine career out of it someday", told me I am "running your mouth", that maybe I am "a stupid troll", that I have "poor wit, charm and class", that I am a "snottard, no doubt due to the lack of good parenting or violent video games as a child", that I have "probably nothing to add to the world in general other than sucking valuable oxygen and converting it into greenhouse gases", and that I have "poor breeding".

My first post was this:
"Wow. That's WAY more difficult than tracking spells and spell DCs like a wizard! Oh wait. No it isn't......
A little bit of added complexity for some fighting classes is fine since they don't have any real maintenance/tracking issues. So you have to track a few rage points? So what? At least you don't have to keep a tally of how many spells at what level with DCs, specialty schools, metamagics and other nonsense that a wizard especially has to deal with. By comparison a Pathfinder Barbarian is simple to run. "This power costs 3 rage points to use......56-3=..um......MATH HARD, ME SMASH!!!! "

Yeah that really was mean of me. Pistols at ten paces or just three five minute rounds, UFC style? Obviously I am such a bastard that you need to try to rid the earth of me, so which method?


Popcorn anyone?

(Yes, this comment adds absolutely nothing to the thread... though it has quite entertaining to read.) :oP


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You know, Fake, this has gone on too long and has completely distracted from my intent with this thread. I apologize for my behavior. I don't want to drag down the tone here at Paizo, this kind of one-upmanship is more WotC-board style. I'm not going to respond to further off topic posts nor try to defend my inexcusable actions here.

Back to barbarians.


Fake Healer wrote:
"This power costs 3 rage points to use......56-3=..um......MATH HARD, ME SMASH!!!! "

And this part implied that the OPer was too stupid to understand the math behind being a barbarian. Sounds like a personal attack to me.

Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle.


Do give the point system a try. Once you get use to it, there really is no going back. Of course, this is coming from someone currently running a ninja (ki points) and a erudite (power points), so I'm a bit biased when it comes to point usage for the level customization when making use of your abilities.

EDIT:
One thing I do though with my character sheets is keep them in sheet protectors, and use wet erase pens to keep track of my point usage. When the party rests for the night, I just erase it with little wear on the sheet itself.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pathos wrote:
Do give the point system a try. Once you get use to it, there really is no going back. Of course, this is coming from someone currently running a ninja (ki points) and a erudite (power points), so I'm a bit biased when it comes to point usage for the level customization when making use of your abilities.

As I stated in my second post on this thread, I'll be putting a few barbarians into my weekly game within the month, if not this very Friday.

And as I stated in my first post, a huge part of this was just the sheer intimidation factor. It looked like a mess of points for duration, powers etc. Which it still does, but I'll give it my best shot.

Pathos wrote:

EDIT:

One thing I do though with my character sheets is keep them in sheet protectors, and use wet erase pens to keep track of my point usage. When the party rests for the night, I just erase it with little wear on the sheet itself.

It's an online game...I don't think I'll have to resort to such drastic measures to shuffle the electrons around. I can just delete them after they die. :)

Qadira

pres man wrote:
Fake Healer wrote:
"This power costs 3 rage points to use......56-3=..um......MATH HARD, ME SMASH!!!! "

And this part implied that the OPer was too stupid to understand the math behind being a barbarian. Sounds like a personal attack to me.

Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle.

Yeah, I was making a bit of a joke about Barbarian's intellect and tossing in a mild Hulk reference. If that is why my lineage, wit, class, and right to live on the planet were attacked then I am sorry I didn't specify more clearly. Obviously if you perceive that someone may have possibly slighted you, you should retaliate with as much venom and mudslinging as you can muster.


I dont know if this will help you but what about the Extra rage feat? My DM and I have been talking about this feat simply giving you extra rage points. prehaps this would move towards solving your problem?


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joseph kempton wrote:
I dont know if this will help you but what about the Extra rage feat? My DM and I have been talking about this feat simply giving you extra rage points. prehaps this would move towards solving your problem?

Well, the first thing to do would be to cut both Extend and Extra Rage and replace it with a new feat that offers some number of rage points, since the new system doesn't distinguish between rages per day and rage length.

However, my concern now that I will be looking at in the game is that the use of rage powers causes a barbarian to actually have less rage than before. Giving more rage points probably isn't the solution to that, it just delays the problem somewhat. Assuming that it is in fact, a problem.

Some people have posted several insightful remarks here regarding how one ought to view the rage powers, and I'll be experimenting with various levels of aggression in using them.

That isn't to say that you aren't on to something with the feat though, just that it doesn't really clear up my concerns.

Extra Rage gave 3 more rages per day, I think, and Extend Rage gave 5 more rounds on each rage you had. If you assume that an average rage has a duration of 8 rounds, Extra Rage gave 24 rounds, where as Extend Rage is more variable...taking it when you had 3 rages per day gave 15 rounds, but when you had 7 rages per day, it gave 35 rounds.

As a rough guess, I'd say a rage point feat might provide 25 rage points and be worth the investment of a feat.


Kain Darkwind wrote:
As a rough guess, I'd say a rage point feat might provide 25 rage points and be worth the investment of a feat.

I'm not sure such a feat would make sense in direct terms. Maybe two feats "Extended Rage" and "Extended Rage II" (for lack of imagination on my part). Extended rage would be available at first level and grant something like 2 additional rage point per barbarian level. "Ext. Rage II" would give an additional 2 rage points per barbarian level. Maybe a third feat for multi class ragers "Practiced Berserker" ;) which allows a multi class barbarian to add rage points as if had barbarian levels equal to his total hit dice or 5 levels greater than his barbarian level whichever is greater. Just a thought.


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Dennis da Ogre wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
As a rough guess, I'd say a rage point feat might provide 25 rage points and be worth the investment of a feat.
I'm not sure such a feat would make sense in direct terms. Maybe two feats "Extended Rage" and "Extended Rage II" (for lack of imagination on my part). Extended rage would be available at first level and grant something like 2 additional rage point per barbarian level. "Ext. Rage II" would give an additional 2 rage points per barbarian level. Maybe a third feat for multi class ragers "Practiced Berserker" ;) which allows a multi class barbarian to add rage points as if had barbarian levels equal to his total hit dice or 5 levels greater than his barbarian level whichever is greater. Just a thought.

Ah, so base it directly on barbarian level? That sounds like a better direction to take, although I'm not sure 2 rage points per level is honestly sufficient...at 5th level, that's 10 more points...not a whole lot compared to the feats that it replaced. 4 points per shot might be better.

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