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I happen to agree. If your answer to a missing 4E rule is "you can make one up", you aren't saying anything to defend the edition's lack of the rule. We're all aware we can make stuff up here :)Then why is the gap a problem if it is easily remedied with a simple fix? People have been doing that since OD&D.
Well, simple. People are trying to discuss the Rules As Written. If a criticism is identified, and the "easy solution" is to make crap up, you are no longer discussing the rules, which of course, IS the actual topic.
You cannot fix a problem and then claim that the problem doesn't exist. It's a logical fallacy. (Oberoni Fallacy)Because I do not see this particular gap as a problem. 4e has no commoners - cool, I don't need stats for them anyway. If you do need stats for commoners then 4e can do that with a quick shot of gap filler.
And this is the real point. This thread came up because people did see this as a problem that needed addressing for their game, or even just as an intellectual exercise. They asked for solutions and discussed the merits (or lack there of) of the possible solutions 4e offered. How does your statement 'that you don't see this as a problem, so just hand wave it away' help the discussion? Answer: it really doesn't.
I really try to sit these out now, as I'd like to see my kids reach adulthood and not blow a gasket over a message board. The thing is, "logic" like this irritates the heck out of me. Sit out a particular thread if you can't contribute in the vein asked by the OP.
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I feel it on the other end too. It's so funny - if I go to the WotC boards, I get pissed off immediately and start feeling very anti-4e just from being there.ROFL--I'm laughing with you though...
Yep. Yep. I went to get some help with H2 when it came out and I was told to shut up and worship WotC for they were kind enough to release H2 before the rules came out. When I politely pointed out that the mod had some gaps not covered by the quickstart rules like equiptment the PCs could buy in town or the rituals available to them I was told that this was just an intro mod and that I could just skip over the rough spots. And then they added that the problem was mine for wanting my PCs to be able to buy weapons, armor, and equipment, or access a ritual from the local priest.
I shelved the mod until the rules came out and I have not posted on the WotC boards since.
Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering...
And lo! We today have internet discussion board! A perfect example of the above.
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Is the fact that 'D&D' is a Wizards of the Coast Trademark which they seem to be very reluctant to lease out to other companies' products these days (helping to fuel the 'blah blah isn't D&D' argument) a contributing factor to the continuation of edition wars?
It is a bile-producing mechanism in a way, but for me, I don't really have any expectation that WOTC exists to make me happy, so I don't get let down.
I think about the dusty attic, the diastolic starts rising, then I say, "well what do you expect at this point?" and it goes away.|
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I feel it on the other end too. It's so funny - if I go to the WotC boards, I get pissed off immediately and start feeling very anti-4e just from being there.ROFL--I'm laughing with you though...
Yep. Yep. I went to get some help with H2 when it came out and I was told to shut up and worship WotC for they were kind enough to release H2 before the rules came out. When I politely pointed out that the mod had some gaps not covered by the quickstart rules like equiptment the PCs could buy in town or the rituals available to them I was told that this was just an intro mod and that I could just skip over the rough spots. And then they added that the problem was mine for wanting my PCs to be able to buy weapons, armor, and equipment, or access a ritual from the local priest.
I shelved the mod until the rules came out and I have not posted on the WotC boards since.
It's one of the few things that, looking at the internet chat scene in general, I can't really disparage WOTC for. The whole size of the community there seems to bring out the worst in some folks.
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My problem is a lack of willpower, leading me to respond to personal attacks that I should know better than to acknowledge. A *lot* of individual stuff from 4E turns my crank, in a good way (less Vancian magic! at will abilities for casters!), but other stuff doesn't appeal to me.
I post in one direction, dancing a little dance at the idea of Vancian magic being sidelined (although I'd prefer it remain an option, for those who like that sort of thing. Taking away other people's fun isn't really on my agenda), and it just sort of gets ignored. I post in the other direction, questioning the wisdom of having different rules mechanics for NPCS / monsters and Player Characters, and how they'll make it really hard to include such standard fantasy fare as charming spells, summoning spells, animal companions, etc. when the 'mobs' aren't balanced the same as the 'PCs,' and I get told point blank that it 'isn't a problem' and that I'm a grognard / hater / irrational / unstable / fascist because I don't love a game I haven't even seen yet! And then the people who call me all these names go on to start concern-trolling threads about how the toxic the atmosphere has gotten!
I ended up 'picking a side' out of self-defense, because a couple of 4E enthusiasts seemed to think that attacking anyone who disagreed with them, and then calling for moderation because of the 'ugly tone of these boards,' jumped all over me. I really didn't choose not to give 4E a chance, I was pretty much actively driven away by it's less temperate fans.
I'll probably end up playing, and enjoying 4E, some day. I'll play just about any RPG once, and sometimes I abandon the 'old stuff' for the shiny new stuff (M&M 2E! Woot!) and other times I prefer the 'old stuff' (Vampire: the Masquerade and Mage: the Awakening appealed to me more than the new stuff). I like to judge things individually, rather than jump to the conclusion that newer is better or older is better.
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WotC sees their boards as a marketing feature and not community support, so you have to adjust your expectations accordingly.
Ditto on this. I've been discussing about some of 4E's design on WotC lately to see all my posts blended to a monstrous "First Impressions" thread that is basically the dump zone for all the ideas that do not conform to the marketing's expectations.
Sure, they don't delete the posts or lock the topics anymore, they just throw them in a dump thread nobody's going to read due to its taunting size (91 pages the last time I checked).
Okay. I said my piece, but complaining about another board's policy here isn't really fair to the Paizo team either. I think we should stop on this line of thought. Everything's been said already. More than once.
Sadly enough, all the edition bickering prompted me to look at some other materials (Castles and Crusades, for instance) thinking maybe I can find a game where the community doesn't just sit around bickering all the time.
I'm sure this will pass soon enough, and I'm still of the opinion that Paizo's forums are better than most in terms of rancor, but at some point I hope cooler heads will prevail.
It's one of the few things that, looking at the internet chat scene in general, I can't really disparage WOTC for. The whole size of the community there seems to bring out the worst in some folks.Unfortunately, at WotC, there's also a very selective enforcement of rules, and an 'pruning effort' constantly underway that somewhat reinforces the behaviour of the worst of the fans there.
WotC sees their boards as a marketing feature and not community support, so you have to adjust your expectations accordingly.
They have a group of asshats over on the WOTC boards who call themselves the 4th Edition Avengers. They ratpack anyone who says anything at all negative about 4th edition. Just picture CWM on crack...and with a whole slew of clones. CWM is actually a reasonable guy compared to those guys however...
The mods over there are pretty lax. The place is a zoo. It certainly isn't advertising the new edition very well.
They have a group of asshats over on the WOTC boards who call themselves the 4th Edition Avengers. They ratpack anyone who says anything at all negative about 4th edition. Just picture CWM on crack...and with a whole slew of clones. CWM is actually a reasonable guy compared to those guys however...
The mods over there are pretty lax. The place is a zoo. It certainly isn't advertising the new edition very well.
The WotC boards actually make me embarrassed to like 4E.
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The WotC boards actually make me embarrassed to like 4E.
For a bunch of gaming geeks who are stereotypically thought to come from the social outcasts and nerds and whatever, it's pretty disheartening at times to see how quickly we turn into the 'mean clique' with each other.
Seems to be human nature, to pick sides, no matter how incredibly minute the divide. I'm sure our bickering about rules and editions is just as incomprehensibly petty and meaningless to the average person as my co-workers incessant bickering about the Patriots and 'Spygate' is to me.
Yep. Yep. I went to get some help with H2 when it came out and I was told to shut up and worship WotC for they were kind enough to release H2 before the rules came out. When I politely pointed out that the mod had some gaps not covered by the quickstart rules like equiptment the PCs could buy in town or the rituals available to them I was told that this was just an intro mod and that I could just skip over the rough spots. And then they added that the problem was mine for wanting my PCs to be able to buy weapons, armor, and equipment, or access a ritual from the local priest.
I shelved the mod until the rules came out and I have not posted on the WotC boards since.
Wow.
That's insane...
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The WotC boards actually make me embarrassed to like 4E.
They have a group of asshats over on the WOTC boards who call themselves the 4th Edition Avengers. They ratpack anyone who says anything at all negative about 4th edition. Just picture CWM on crack...and with a whole slew of clones. CWM is actually a reasonable guy compared to those guys however...
The mods over there are pretty lax. The place is a zoo. It certainly isn't advertising the new edition very well.
That is an object lesson for this place as well. The Paizo boards already have a reputation for being hostile to 4e - some of the poo fights here deepen that perception (and yes, I am guilty of that too ... trying my best not to add to it anymore).
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Yes indeed it does.With my normal group, we are actually playing Runequest,Runequest rules!Depends on which edition...
(I keed, I keed)
Barely played RQ1, RQ2 ROCKED!!!!! RQ3? meh. Got the bootleg of RQ4 Adventure in Glorantha - seriously KICK ASS! RQ Slayers ... pure poop. Mongoose RQ is very solid if you take out the incorporation of runes thing.
Maybe this is why I am not so phased by edition changes - my favorite game has seen so many that my head spins just thinking about it.
That is an object lesson for this place as well. The Paizo boards already have a reputation for being hostile to 4e - some of the poo fights here deepen that perception (and yes, I am guilty of that too ... trying my best not to add to it anymore).
Reputations. Rarely accurate.
It seems to me that a lot of people here are pro 4E and are making some astute observations about it. Were they to stop replying to every small minded snipe their contributions would seem much more valuable, I think.
Good luck with that.
<====never played RQ, will check it out.
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BTW - Rob Heinsoo is an long time RQ/Glorantha/HeroQuest guy.
Didn't know that. HeroQuest is really cool, too, for a VERY different type of game play. You should have players who are not afraid to grasp the system and run with it. Passive players kill HQ.
I must say that Glorantha is easily my favorite fantasy setting EVER.
I am also a HUGE fan of Stormbringer, Hawkmoon, Corum. Got all the games. Played them over and over again over the years.
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Stormbringer rocks as well. RQ is a more detailed rules system that Stormbringer with hit locations, hit points per location, and a gritty magic system.It's same system as CoC or Elric pretty much.
Never played RQ, but played a good deal of Stormbringer.
I had the Elfquest game; I ditched the hit location stuff cos it took forever.
In response to the thread, for me I like 4e a lot. Why I argue is the seemingly inane thought that you can't have any real roleplaying in 4e, as though there's a page in the DMG that says adventures must be comprised only of dungeon crawls, when in fact the opposite is true! A lot of people will read the PHB and decide the game sucks, but never bother to read through the DMG and see that roleplaying is still core to the playing of D&D.
To that note, I'm tired of everyone saying "Well, what if I want to play a game that's mostly roleplaying? I run entire sessions without any dice rolls!" Guess what, you're an exception. And this is D&D, there has to be some kind of hacking and slashing going on. I mean even the Pathfinder APs have quite a bit of fighting going on despite the heavy narrative. If you want heavy roleplaying, go play some other game, like the sad vampire one :P
And the conspiracy theories (very irrational I might add). In all fairness I just hate conspiracy theories in general, but when fellow nerds start doing it I can't help but feel a little betrayed.
<====never played RQ, will check it out.
You should, its an awesome game. I think there is an SRD/wiki somewhere.
Hmm if RQ is OGL, I wonder how would Pathfinder setting would work on RQ rules...
Vance, putting your comment in Humour brackets doesn't change the fact you know it'll rile CWM, and in this case rightly so.The reason I defend 4e is simple - I have little tolerance for the active spread of disinformation that is far too often the subject of many posts in this section of Paizo's boards.[HUMOR]Yeah, you should really STOP doing that.[/HUMOR]
Vance has been known to make up s&~& about 4E to defend his position. So, OF COURSE he doesn't want people to disprove him.
I for one applaud CWM for informing people who come here seeking answers to questions and rebuking the misinformed who try to attack 4E based on things that simply aren't true.
I was thinking the same thing. I'm especially curious how Rune magic would be handled.<====never played RQ, will check it out.You should, its an awesome game. I think there is an SRD/wiki somewhere.
Hmm if RQ is OGL, I wonder how would Pathfinder setting would work on RQ rules...
Are any of the Golarion setting books near systemless? I could fancy a systemless setting with various conversion notes for alternates games: RQ, Savage Worlds, BW, TROS, etc.
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Why I argue is the seemingly inane thought that you can't have any real roleplaying in 4e, as though there's a page in the DMG that says adventures must be comprised only of dungeon crawls, when in fact the opposite is true!
We role-played in Star Fleet Battles, probably the least RP-friendly game in the universe. Heck, one of our players role-plays an evil slumlord when he plays *Monopoly* and threatens to send 'his boys' around to 'teach a lesson' if people don't hand money over fast enough.
There's nothing any edition of D&D can do to prevent people from role-playing their characters.
If you want heavy roleplaying, go play some other game, like the sad vampire one :P
And there's the other side of it. Instead of refuting the, as you say, 'inane' notion that one can't role-play in 4E, the 'defense' degenerates into attacking other people and their style of play.
If the people at the table are having fun, then they aren't doing it wrong, even if they happen to like role-playing, or even if they've played that 'sad vampire game' or play games with girls at the table (some of whom kinda like 'sad vampire games' and role-playing more than action-adventure games with lots of dice rolling).
*I* don't really enjoy wargaming or simulationism or games where I have to keep track of many fiddly things each and every round (like tons of situational modifiers, I prefer 'buffs' or 'debuffs' that last an entire combat to those that are measured in rounds, and the turn towards spells and modifiers that last a single round kinda turns me off), but other people like that level of detail and round-by-round adjustment, and I see no need to disparage them, nor do I consider myself a better (or worse) gamer because of that.
OK, I'm probably going to regret this, but.... A sort of plea for healing.
Why is there still back-and-forth about 4e vs 3e?
Why? I would have to say because many gamers take their D&D very seriously (perhaps a bit too seriously). Consequently, they are all too happy to vigorously defend their favorite brand of D&D. 4E isn't just "another version" of D&D; it's a major change to the game and that is also sure to be controversial. With the mix of serious gamers and a controversial change to the game, you're sure to get a long and protracted debate.
Tastes great or less filling? debate
Cats or dogs - which are better?
Or, from a hockey messageboard I've been visiting for a very long time:
Rush or Nirvana?
All endless debates that won't be resolved anytime soon.
What it all comes down to is personal opinion, which is just that - personal. Intelligent debate is one thing. However, some people aren't satisfied until everyone agrees with them. I don't know why, it's just a deep seated psychological flaw in humanity. Hence, we have endless debates, and even wars, over politics, religion, and a multitude of cultural issues.
Tasty beer, dogs and Nirvana, for the record.
See its this kind of persona that gets me down about paizo and the people who love earlier editions
Ouch! The irony.
Tasty beer, dogs and Nirvana, for the record.
Amen.
Or, from a hockey messageboard I've been visiting for a very long time:
Rush or Nirvana?
Neither...MAIDEN! Up the Irons!
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Tasty beer, dogs and Nirvana, for the record.
Oh jeez! Now you're *really* going to get a flame war started!!
Tasty beer, cats, and Rush. And me from Seattle, even.
Neither...MAIDEN! Up the Irons!
Or, from a hockey messageboard I've been visiting for a very long time:
Rush or Nirvana?
Yeah, Maiden beats them both.