Templates


4th Edition

The Exchange

Does anyone know what XP effect adding a template has. Likewise, when you level an NPC, how does that slide the XP value of the monster. I am executing a "FAIL" finding this data.


tadkil wrote:
Does anyone know what XP effect adding a template has. Likewise, when you level an NPC, how does that slide the XP value of the monster. I am executing a "FAIL" finding this data.

I see on the individual templates it says 'xp elite' so I think a 1st level monster you put the template on would then have the xp of a 1st level elite monster.


tadkil wrote:
Does anyone know what XP effect adding a template has. Likewise, when you level an NPC, how does that slide the XP value of the monster. I am executing a "FAIL" finding this data.

It would just the standard XP of a monster of given level. Unless you mean a fully statted out PC-like NPC. I'm not sure what the rule is for their XP worth. (As a guess, try an Elite mob of their level)

Cheers! :)

The Exchange

Well, I am wondering about this process:

Increasing or Decreasing Level
Boosting a monster’s level is easy. Just increase its attack rolls, defenses, and AC by 1 for every level you add. For every two levels, increase the damage it deals with its attacks by 1. The monster also gains extra hit points at each level, based on its role (see the “Monster Statistics by Role” table on page 184). Decreasing a monster’s level works like increasing it, but in reverse. For each level down, reduce the creature’s attack rolls, defenses, and AC by 1 and drop its hit points based on its role. For every two levels, also
reduce its damage by 1. This process works best for adjusting a monster’s level up to five higher or lower. Beyond that, the monster
changes so much that you’d do better to start with another creature of the desired role and level range.

I am inclined to just go with the same XP total for the type (skirmisher, controller, etc.) at the next level. That seems straightforward.

However, what to do to XP when adding a functional template is less clear cut. I think all you do is change the XP total to "Elite" for that level. Seems like the same process applies when adding a class to a monster.

What do you guys think?


tadkil wrote:
What do you guys think?

yep.

Liberty's Edge

tadkil wrote:

Well, I am wondering about this process:

Increasing or Decreasing Level
Boosting a monster’s level is easy. Just increase its attack rolls, defenses, and AC by 1 for every level you add. For every two levels, increase the damage it deals with its attacks by 1. The monster also gains extra hit points at each level, based on its role (see the “Monster Statistics by Role” table on page 184). Decreasing a monster’s level works like increasing it, but in reverse. For each level down, reduce the creature’s attack rolls, defenses, and AC by 1 and drop its hit points based on its role. For every two levels, also
reduce its damage by 1. This process works best for adjusting a monster’s level up to five higher or lower. Beyond that, the monster
changes so much that you’d do better to start with another creature of the desired role and level range.

I am inclined to just go with the same XP total for the type (skirmisher, controller, etc.) at the next level. That seems straightforward.

However, what to do to XP when adding a functional template is less clear cut. I think all you do is change the XP total to "Elite" for that level. Seems like the same process applies when adding a class to a monster.

What do you guys think?

I don't have my book in front of me, but I was playing with this yesterday so its fresh in my mind. If you add a single template, the creature becomes elite and awards XP as an elite creature of its level. If you add two templates, it becomes a solo (and you have to make some extra adjustments like double the hp and increase the saving throw bonus to +5) and it awards xp as a solo of its level.

I can't specifically remember the effect of the class templates on xp, other than a generic NPC with a class is worth xp according to its level. If you slap the template on a creature that already has abilities, I'm not sure what effect that has.

Rob

The Exchange

Thanks folks!

Seems like we are very close to saying "So say we all!"


Hmm, I am under the impression that you are confusing things (or maybe I'm confused with what you are saying? heh)

Adding a class template on 4E doesn't work like adding class levels on 3.5E. It's more like a 3.5E template - it improve the monster's statistics, but doesn't change its level. So, you have a Rakshasa Warrior (Level 15), add the Wizard class template on him, and now he is an Elite Level 15 Controller. He becomes "Elite" because he gains extra hit points, defenses, abilites and powers when you add the template.

That's an interesting method because your modified Rakshasa Warrior would have the spellcasting ability of a 15th-level wizard, thus his new arsenal of abilities would be truly a threat for a party of 15th-level PCs.

Now, NPCs are another thing - they are characters with classes built from scratch, not based on existing monsters. They gain "regular" class levels, just like PCs, although the DMG present special guidelines to make NPCs quicker to stat than NPCs. They are worth the XP of a "standard" monster of the same level. Usually, only monsters with racial write-ups (those in the MM Appendix, like orcs and minotaurs) can gain class levels this way.


tadkil wrote:
What do you guys think?

As written, the XP is the same as that of an Elite monster. I don't know what happens when you apply a template to an already Elite monster, though. I'd doubt that would make it a Solo but I could be wrong.

The Exchange

Krauser_Levyl wrote:

Adding a class template on 4E doesn't work like adding class levels on 3.5E. It's more like a 3.5E template - it improve the monster's statistics, but doesn't change its level. So, you have a Rakshasa Warrior (Level 15), add the Wizard class template on him, and now he is an Elite Level 15 Controller. He becomes "Elite" because he gains extra hit points, defenses, abilites and powers when you add the template.

There's not a table anyplace that summarizes XP by role (skirmisher,etc.) but templates cause the critter to change role, and hence change XP type.

So, if I "leveled" a goblin warrior from first level to third level, he would go form paying out 100 xp to paying out 150 xp. If I made him feyborn or made him a rogue, he would become elite and be worth 300 xp. If I made him feybron and a rogue, he would be a solo critter and worth 750 xp. Folks feel free to check my math. Has anyone seen a table that captures these values?

I think where I confused you was when I said, "NPC."

The Exchange

Immaculate Brutal Hammer wrote:
tadkil wrote:
What do you guys think?
As written, the XP is the same as that of an Elite monster. I don't know what happens when you apply a template to an already Elite monster, though. I'd doubt that would make it a Solo but I could be wrong.

It does. Just found that myself after being pointed there by someone upthread.


tadkil wrote:

There's not a table anyplace that summarizes XP by role (skirmisher,etc.) but templates cause the critter to change role, and hence change XP type.

So, if I "leveled" a goblin warrior from first level to third level, he would go form paying out 100 xp to paying out 150 xp. If I made him feyborn or made him a rogue, he would become elite and be worth 300 xp. If I made him feybron and a rogue, he would be a solo critter and worth 750 xp. Folks feel free to check my math. Has anyone seen a table that captures these values?

I think where I confused you was when I said, "NPC."

Pg. 120 of the DMG.

The Exchange

Krauser_Levyl wrote:
tadkil wrote:

There's not a table anyplace that summarizes XP by role (skirmisher,etc.) but templates cause the critter to change role, and hence change XP type.

So, if I "leveled" a goblin warrior from first level to third level, he would go form paying out 100 xp to paying out 150 xp. If I made him feyborn or made him a rogue, he would become elite and be worth 300 xp. If I made him feybron and a rogue, he would be a solo critter and worth 750 xp. Folks feel free to check my math. Has anyone seen a table that captures these values?

I think where I confused you was when I said, "NPC."

Pg. 120 of the DMG.

Awesome. Thanks. Didn't stick even though I looked at it twice.

And for the record, My "the GSL is evil" rant is rapidly being trumped by how easy it is to convert and build adventures in 4E. Unbelievable!


tadkil wrote:
Immaculate Brutal Hammer wrote:
tadkil wrote:
What do you guys think?
As written, the XP is the same as that of an Elite monster. I don't know what happens when you apply a template to an already Elite monster, though. I'd doubt that would make it a Solo but I could be wrong.
It does. Just found that myself after being pointed there by someone upthread.

You're right, but I doubt that a monster with two templates would make a great solo monster. Too few actions per round to make a good challenge for a 5-member party. I would additionally allow the new solo to use an at-will power as a minor action, and recharge one of its encounter powers on 5-6.

The Exchange

Krauser_Levyl wrote:
tadkil wrote:
Immaculate Brutal Hammer wrote:
tadkil wrote:
What do you guys think?
As written, the XP is the same as that of an Elite monster. I don't know what happens when you apply a template to an already Elite monster, though. I'd doubt that would make it a Solo but I could be wrong.
It does. Just found that myself after being pointed there by someone upthread.
You're right, but I doubt that a monster with two templates would make a great solo monster. Too few actions per round to make a good challenge for a 5-member party. I would additionally allow the new solo to use an at-will power as a minor action, and recharge one of its encounter powers on 5-6.

"Solo" in this case might also be understood as "boss". I would not strictly worry about having it fight alone based on how durable it was. Going to have to play with it and see how it works.

Anyone have any interesting combinations they want to post?

Liberty's Edge

tadkil wrote:
Anyone have any interesting combinations they want to post?

One I hit on that I liked was a feyborn rat swarm. It's like a bunch of rats ganged up on the pied piper, stole his flute, and ran off to use it on other people.

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