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D&D occupies a unique place in the RPG ecosystem. It was the first RPG and created the entire category it continues to dominate. It also tends to be the entry point for most people into the hobby. While there have been some alternate avenues, most notably Vampire: The Masquerade, most roleplayers get their start with D&D. Despite this D&D has a checkered history in attracting new players since the days of the original Basic Set. TSR and WotC after them have had acquisition strategies that were either confused or ineffective. When I heard that 4E was going to radically rebuild D&D, my biggest hope was that the new iteration would be good acquisition game. The hobby needs more roleplayers, plain and simple, and I hoped 4E might help deliver them.
My assessment after having the books for a few weeks: it fails.
D&D occupies a unique place in the RPG ecosystem. It was the first RPG and created the entire category it continues to dominate. It also tends to be the entry point for most people into the hobby. While there have been some alternate avenues, most notably Vampire: The Masquerade, most roleplayers get their start with D&D. Despite this D&D has a checkered history in attracting new players since the days of the original Basic Set. TSR and WotC after them have had acquisition strategies that were either confused or ineffective. When I heard that 4E was going to radically rebuild D&D, my biggest hope was that the new iteration would be good acquisition game. The hobby needs more roleplayers, plain and simple, and I hoped 4E might help deliver them.
My assessment after having the books for a few weeks: it fails.
That's funny. Just this past weekend my nephew and his buddies (roughly around age 13-14) showed interest in playing this new iteration of D&D for the first time ever. I could never get them to play 3.5 Edition. I was so jazzed, I went out and bought them a new PHB and told them to have at it.
D&D occupies a unique place in the RPG ecosystem. It was the first RPG and created the entire category it continues to dominate. It also tends to be the entry point for most people into the hobby. While there have been some alternate avenues, most notably Vampire: The Masquerade, most roleplayers get their start with D&D. Despite this D&D has a checkered history in attracting new players since the days of the original Basic Set. TSR and WotC after them have had acquisition strategies that were either confused or ineffective. When I heard that 4E was going to radically rebuild D&D, my biggest hope was that the new iteration would be good acquisition game. The hobby needs more roleplayers, plain and simple, and I hoped 4E might help deliver them.
My assessment after having the books for a few weeks: it fails.
I'm going to reply better when I get home but... I don't understand why people insist that the game needs "dumb" classes to attract new players (always using the Fighter and the Barbarian as examples).
My first character was a 3rd-level wizard. And I was 11 years old.
New players, particularly the current generation of computer game/videogame players, want easy but exciting options. Not "easy and boring" options.
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Better to bring the newbie directly to the table.
Yep. With 4e all that a player needs is on the character sheet. Just get to playing and the rest will sort itself out. The real trick is to be a guide and not to allow the new player to fail horribly. This is the one and only time I will make any connection between 4e and a video game - video games teach the user how to play and they have a very forgiving tutorial mode. There is much in that dynamic worth emulating when it comes to bringing new players into the game.
Better to bring the newbie directly to the table.Yep. With 4e all that a player needs is on the character sheet. Just get to playing and the rest will sort itself out. The real trick is to be a guide and not to allow the new player to fail horribly. This is the one and only time I will make any connection between 4e and a video game - video games teach the user how to play and they have a very forgiving tutorial mode. There is much in that dynamic worth emulating when it comes to bringing new players into the game.
I agree with this completely.
A new player should be directed to Keep on the Shadowfell with the Core books as backup once the player's get the hang of it.
Pregenerated characters are the s&~# - all you need is on that sheet of paper.
I also find it hilarious that he says, "and there are ultimately too many choices for new players to make. I learned (ironically enough, when I was working at WotC) that limiting options is often better for new players, as offering too much choice can paralyze them."
Which runs directly contrary to what tons of people are complaining about with 4th Edition - having simple character creation.
I am going to agree with him on this.This was the first time I ever got bored reading a new game book. I know this would have never hooked me in thats for sure.
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Quoting the most relevant part as to why Chris says this:
The 4E PHB, however, has some issues. Let's take a look at them in detail.
No Sales Text: I remember when we got in the 3E PHBs at WotC. I immediately flipped mine over to read the back cover text. I was appalled that it made no attempt to sell D&D. It basically said, "Hey, it's the new edition of D&D." Imagine my surprise to find 4E repeating this same error. Most of the back cover is empty. There are two short paragraphs of text and again they do not even try to sell the game. They don't explain what a roleplaying game is or why it's fun. It is apparently assumed that anyone looking at this book already knows that. You can tell someone that the book "provides everything players need to create and run heroic characters through legendary dungeons of dread," but that means nothing to folks new to roleplaying.
The Great Wall: Chapter 1 does have a reasonable, if short, intro to the game. Then the book gets into character creation. It's a little hinky that the races chapter has a bunch of powers in it when they haven't been explained yet, but I can see why they are there. The trouble starts in Chapter 4: Classes. This chapter is a killer. Since each class has 80-90 powers and all of them are nested here, this chapter is enormous and daunting. It is 125 pages, or almost as long as the entire 1st edition PHB. I've been gaming since I was 10 years old and my eyes glazed over the first time I tried to make it though Chapter 4. The powers soon started blending together. Also, a huge number of them use the [w] notation and this is explained nowhere in this chapter. You don't find out what it means until Chapter 7: Equipment, in fact.
No Newb Class: In every previous edition of D&D there has been at least one easy-to-play class that you could start people off with, fighter being the classic choice. 4E gives an equal number of powers to all classes, which means that playing any of them is like running a spellcaster in previous editions. There are at least some suggested builds for each class, so that's something but playing a 4E character for the first time still requires a more decision making than I think is advisable for new gamers.
Not Enough Examples: Good rulebooks should have a lot of examples. You might think a rule is clear when you write it, but it often isn't as crystal as you believe. There are very few examples in the PHB until the combat chapter and even that really needs more. There is no character creation example that follows through the entire process and no extended combat example. Showing a new player how it all comes together is key, so leaving these out is a mistake.
Poor Reference Tools: This is a 320 page book and it has a 1 page index. Not helpful. Nor does it have a glossary of terms. Oh, and all those powers in Chapter 4? There's no alphabetical list of those with page numbers so you can look them up by name. All of this is bad enough for experienced players but it's deadly for newbies.
Core Experience Is Hardcore: All the preceding could have been mitigated to some degree if the core experience was easy to get into. Unfortunately, 4E is for hardcore gamers, not casual players. It seeks to provide a robust system for tactical combat and in so doing it makes the game fairly unapproachable. Or to put it more simply: the game is too damn complicated. There are powers and feats and class abilities (which can be like feats or like powers!), there are multiple temporary modifiers that need to be remembered and tracked, and there are ultimately too many choices for new players to make. I learned (ironically enough, when I was working at WotC) that limiting options is often better for new players, as offering too much choice can paralyze them.
I agree with all of his points, with the precise caveat that the index, though short, is already extremely useful as it stands. There could have been more thematic lists for easy reference, however.
I most particularly agree with the "Not Enough Examples" criticism. That struck me too when I read the PHB. This failing could and should have been avoided.
I find the DMG dry on detailed examples as well. I think it flies over a damn lot of topics without truly explaining how they come into play, in practice, with detailed examples, not one-liners. It does a good job... for people already used to role-playing games, IMO.
The options for a 1st level character are not that many, really, and that combined with the "play a Rogue if you want to ..." text has helped several new gamers that I know of (and who are joining my group).
Taken as a whole, I would agree that the game would appear daunting. I don't know of many RPGs that wouldn't be. Still, I can't imagine them simplifying the game much more than they have. It might have attacked a few more new players but, judging from the vocal group opposed to the simplifications, at the cost of losing more current gamers.
It's probably not a very easy line to walk.
I think a comment on his blog says it best:
" At June 15, 2008 11:58 PM , Blogger BlackDiamond said...
WOTC has let us retailers know that the launch of 4E is aimed at veteran gamers.
New players will be targeted in a separate marketing campaign in the fall, likely coinciding with the new starter game in November.
Reviews so far and my impression as a store owner and a long time D&D DM is that it's looking pretty darn good."
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Better to bring the newbie directly to the table.Yep. With 4e all that a player needs is on the character sheet. Just get to playing and the rest will sort itself out. The real trick is to be a guide and not to allow the new player to fail horribly. This is the one and only time I will make any connection between 4e and a video game - video games teach the user how to play and they have a very forgiving tutorial mode. There is much in that dynamic worth emulating when it comes to bringing new players into the game.
I tend to give Pramas' opinion a lot of respect. He knows a thing or two about book design. I feel confident that he has published more books than CWM here. Plus I've sat down at my neighborhood Borders and read a copy of the new PH. It's certainly not any more user-friendly than the 3.5 Handbook. I almost lost my lunch when I got to the alignment part (and the character role part, and the ability score generation part, but I digress).
On the plus side, it's a pretty book. Then again, so was the 3.5 PH.
You know, I feel about this as I do about the new Battlestar Galactica. I'm sure it's a good show; but it shows such disrespect to the original show, that I can't get into it. Maybe if they had called it something else and renamed the characters; it could stand alone as a great TV program. But they had to ride on the coattails of the old show.
4th Edition reads like a different game, like Shadowrun, LOTR or Dangerous Journeys or something else. I held the book and felt the depression wash over me again as I dealt with the reality that this book is what my favorite game of all time has become. It was a reimagining that was made too soon, wasn't needed and falls far short of what the game WAS.
Of course, the aforementioned is all my opinion and MY game is still and always will be 3.5.
But, Chris Pramas isn't tasting sour grapes like I am; he is a professional giving his professional judgment on the effectiveness of the cornerstone of WOTC D&D building.
You didn't drink the "viva Paizo" Koolaid.
But don't worry, they've saved some for you...
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I tend to give Pramas' opinion a lot of respect. He knows a thing or two about book design. I feel confident that he has published more books than CWM here.So what did I say to warrant that kind of response?
(edited to play nice)
Then again, why feed the frenzy? You'll be fine, and so will I.
Carry on and ignore us crazy 3.5 holdouts! We'll fade into the woodwork eventually. Or will we?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Carry on and ignore us crazy 3.5 holdouts! We'll fade into the woodwork eventually. Or will we?
Hi, reality is at the door and would like a word with you. Turns out your not a persecuted minority here at Paizo after all. It also suggests following your own advice regarding flag waving and ad hominem attacks.
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Carry on and ignore us crazy 3.5 holdouts! We'll fade into the woodwork eventually. Or will we?
Hi, reality is at the door and would like a word with you. Turns out your not a persecuted minority here at Paizo after all. It also suggests following your own advice regarding flag waving and ad hominem attacks.
I really do like you Sebastian. Probably because my father is a lawyer. Or maybe it is because you manage to skirt that invisible line of being facetious and just being inappropriate. Carry on.
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Carry on and ignore us crazy 3.5 holdouts! We'll fade into the woodwork eventually. Or will we?
Sorry, I have a question.
What the hell does that mean!?!? I mean, sometimes (read: occasionally)CWM gets on my nerves, and he occasionally (read: not often) goes a little too far, but there is no such thing as a crazy 3.5 holdout, you do not speak for all 3.5 lovers, and your post makes no sense.
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I really do like you Sebastian. Probably because my father is a lawyer. Or maybe it is because you manage to skirt that invisible line of being facetious and just being inappropriate. Carry on.
Carry on and ignore us crazy 3.5 holdouts! We'll fade into the woodwork eventually. Or will we?
Hi, reality is at the door and would like a word with you. Turns out your not a persecuted minority here at Paizo after all. It also suggests following your own advice regarding flag waving and ad hominem attacks.
This post makes no sense either. Great, you like Sebastian. Don't we all (not sarcasm). But that has absolutely nothing to do with what he just said.
I feel confident that he has published more books than CWM here. =
To CWM: I think it's good practice to just ignore what the "3.5 holdouts" have to say about 4th Edition. In most cases, they are just spitting out the bad taste in their mouthes.
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Carry on and ignore us crazy 3.5 holdouts! We'll fade into the woodwork eventually. Or will we?Sorry, I have a question.
What the hell does that mean!?!? I mean, sometimes (read: occasionally)CWM gets on my nerves, and he occasionally (read: not often) goes a little too far, but there is no such thing as a crazy 3.5 holdout, you do not speak for all 3.5 lovers, and your post makes no sense.
Observation: The problem with a lot of these threads is the emotions and arguments that wash into them from unrelated threads.
For instance - CWM, in this thread, said nothing to really make him an obvious target, yet his constant defense of any and every imagined attack against 4e means that dmchucky69, when he responded, chose to use CWM's name.
And again, dmchucky's assurance that he would fade into the woodwork is really a response to things that Bugleyman had said a few days ago on completely different threads. (Thats my assumption anyway)
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This post makes no sense either. Great, you like Sebastian. Don't we all (not sarcasm). But that has absolutely nothing to do with what he just said.I really do like you Sebastian. Probably because my father is a lawyer. Or maybe it is because you manage to skirt that invisible line of being facetious and just being inappropriate. Carry on.
Carry on and ignore us crazy 3.5 holdouts! We'll fade into the woodwork eventually. Or will we?
Hi, reality is at the door and would like a word with you. Turns out your not a persecuted minority here at Paizo after all. It also suggests following your own advice regarding flag waving and ad hominem attacks.
Not sure why I keep follwing this thread, probably just bored when I should be studying for a test.
#1 ) I'm pretty sure that not everyone here likes Sebastian. He can be quite mean-spirited at times. But he is a lawyer after all; they are not always known for having tact or ethics.
#2) The post makes no sense to you? Good. I wasn't talking to you. I think that it was pretty clear who I was talking to. Carry on.
#3) How should I have responded to what he just said? It didn't really ask a question. He was being as smarmy as I was in return. He was criticizing what I said and that is well within his right to do so, but doesn't necessarily demand a particular response. I'm sorry if I put about as much stock in what he said as I do in most stuff he says: which is to say little to none.
#4) He does amuse me at times though. I tend too lurk more than I post and I have enjoyed many of the flame wars he has participated in. I imagine in real life he and I could actually get along. My friend DNGNB8 tends to have an abrasive personality as well and we are best friends. I doubt that Sebastian and CWM would be friends though; just call it intuition.
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Carry on and ignore us crazy 3.5 holdouts! We'll fade into the woodwork eventually. Or will we?Sorry, I have a question.
What the hell does that mean!?!? I mean, sometimes (read: occasionally)CWM gets on my nerves, and he occasionally (read: not often) goes a little too far, but there is no such thing as a crazy 3.5 holdout, you do not speak for all 3.5 lovers, and your post makes no sense.
Observation: The problem with a lot of these threads is the emotions and arguments that wash into them from unrelated threads.
For instance - CWM, in this thread, said nothing to really make him an obvious target, yet his constant defense of any and every imagined attack against 4e means that dmchucky69, when he responded, chose to use CWM's name.
And again, dmchucky's assurance that he would fade into the woodwork is really a response to things that Bugleyman had said a few days ago on completely different threads. (Thats my assumption anyway)
BINGO!
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#2) The post makes no sense to you? Good. I wasn't talking to you. I think that it was pretty clear who I was talking to. Carry on.If I was Sebastian, would I understand your post?
Why does it matter to you? And more importantly: Do I care if he understands it? If you can figure the answer to that one, you have taken the first step on a higher path. ;P
My friend DNGNB8 tends to have an abrasive personality as well and we are best friends.
Closer to brothers then friends now.
People attack dmchucky69, they will FEEL my abrasiveness! *gets the #50 sand paper*
#2) The post makes no sense to you? Good. I wasn't talking to you. I think that it was pretty clear who I was talking to. Carry on.If I was Sebastian, would I understand your post?
If he is intelligent, he would.
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Why does it matter to you? And more importantly: Do I care if he understands it? If you can figure the answer to that one, you have taken the first step on a higher path. ;P#2) The post makes no sense to you? Good. I wasn't talking to you. I think that it was pretty clear who I was talking to. Carry on.If I was Sebastian, would I understand your post?
I am currently tumbling to the ground off that higher path. I tumble so low I reach the highest path by inverse logic. Hehehe.
I am currently tumbling to the ground off that higher path. I tumble so low I reach the highest path by inverse logic. Hehehe.
Those who lack skill make excuses.
I agree with Pramas, if you are looking at it from his prospective. His prospective: 10 year old kid that was handed the 4E PHB by their uncle or whatever and just sat down and started reading it and wanted to DM their own game. His comments reflect his opinion that 1E was a much simplier game for a kid to just pick up and play as opposed to be shown how to play the game first by an experienced DM. The rest of his blog focuses on how the 4E PHB fails to make it like 1E where its pick-up-playable.
I'm guessing his thoughts behind his words are: the basic 4E system is quality. It features a unified combat system for Hit vs AC or Saves as well as a simplified skills system. That basic simplicity could make it seriously sellable to new players and bring in alot of new blood to the game. But then they bloated the system by making the class section (or more specificly, the powers section for those classes) have more pages then the 1E PHB. Then they orginize it poorly by having no real index, no alphabetical listing, no quick reference list like 3.5 PHB spell lists. Basicly he's saying that something like this will end up sitting on the shelf of that kid because it is just to daunting a read and terrible to reference when at the table.
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I am currently tumbling to the ground off that higher path. I tumble so low I reach the highest path by inverse logic. Hehehe.Why does it matter to you? And more importantly: Do I care if he understands it? If you can figure the answer to that one, you have taken the first step on a higher path. ;P#2) The post makes no sense to you? Good. I wasn't talking to you. I think that it was pretty clear who I was talking to. Carry on.If I was Sebastian, would I understand your post?
I can dig that. Peace out my friend.
This post edited to comply with the comfy feely environment of 4.0
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I can dig that. Peace out my friend.I am currently tumbling to the ground off that higher path. I tumble so low I reach the highest path by inverse logic. Hehehe.Why does it matter to you? And more importantly: Do I care if he understands it? If you can figure the answer to that one, you have taken the first step on a higher path. ;P#2) The post makes no sense to you? Good. I wasn't talking to you. I think that it was pretty clear who I was talking to. Carry on.If I was Sebastian, would I understand your post?
COnsider it out. Whatever that means.
It was ironic seeing Mr. Pramas say that the game was too complicated to bring people into the hobby when pretty much all the complaints on this board have gone the opposite way. Of course people here tend to be long time gamers.
I remember when I started playing dnd (about 17 years ago). I didn't have anyone to introduce me to the hobby. I just thought it sounded neat, so I bought the 2nd edition phb, which had more or less just come out. I think I saw it advertised in a comic book. Now if you are new to rpgs and your experience with game rules is limited to things like monopoly and risk (which mine was back then), then realizing that the phb is the rule book is really intimidating. Without any support to bring me into the hobby, it took some serious effort on my part to weed through the game and try to figure out how it was played and what I was supposed to do with it. I have a friend that will play board games with me, but draws the line at rpgs. He just looks at the density of the phb and shakes his head. He also thinks it's a little too geeky (but that's another issue). He found ready the rules to Settlers of Catan a chore, and I know a lot of people who are the same way. Most people just can't be bothered, so unless someone is going to teach them the game- good luck in bringing in new players just by having them by a phb off the shelf and deciding to start running dnd games on the weekend. It's just not going to happen.
I have just introduced five new players to D&D using Fourth Edition (all five had never before played D&D even once), and they loved it and want to play again. And they told their friends, some of who mentioned they played a couple of times years ago in high school, and they were jazzed to play after hearing how much fun we had. Now I have another four players who want to try it and will be running a whole other campaign for them. I think Mr. Pramas is mistaken. I think 4th edition, combined with the growing prominence of fantasy and sci-fi in mainstream culture, will mean an unprecedented number of D&D players.
Real men play Basic. My poison - 1991 Black Box. Fantastic game.
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I may be in the minority, but when I was 8 I bought the 3.0 core set just cause they looked cool. I read them all nonstop and got a group of friends together. It went great, and ive played ever since. So I learned as a little kid how to play from the core rules.
So, wait a minute. You were 8 when you bought 3.0, which came out in 2000. So at best, your 16 right now. Damn, do I feel old.
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Now I feel old.
Eh. It's ok. I have 3 months left of being a 20something.
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Now I feel old.